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  #271  
Old 31st May 2010, 01:56 AM
Tsid502 Tsid502 is offline
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Default Re: how can we best explain our existence ?

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owheelj said View Post
So your answer to my question; what evidence would it require to convince you that the premise of this topic is wrong is to put forward a "more convincing argument." Wow, that really narrows it down.

This really is a pointless argument isn't it? And the reason why it's pointless is because you are incapable of understanding what people are saying and responding to them.
If that would be the case, we would not be here, anymore, discussing. What you mean, is, that i have not embraced your world view and philosophy, of a origin of the universe without God. In fact, i have not. If you however be capable of demonstrating a more convincing world view, it might happen. So far, all presented arguments leave me VERY cold...


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You don't hold a position based on science, you hold a position and then you've cherry picked "science" to try to justify that position, but you've failed completely, however due to accepting the position regardless of the evidence, you can't and won't see that.
Why do you not admit, that YOUR arguments in reality fail, since THEY are not convincing at all, and i am exposing here ?


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Your position is entirely based on "faith," and isn't supported by science at all.
then what have we discussed until now at this thread ? its not a bibleclass, so far, is it ?

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In fact you don't even understand the quotes that you've used in your arguments.
Prove that assertion, please.

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You have no education in physics and you don't know what you're talking about, but even worse than that, you're not prepared to learn, you're just going to keep on repeating your misunderstandings and keep believing in your zombie lord, regardless of what people say. Posting in this topic is clearly a waste of time because nothing could possibly convince you that you're wrong, even though you very obviously are.
So what could convince you, that YOU are wrong ? I think , your real problem is, that you are not willing to give up your atheist world view, since it fits well your wish no God to be above you, and to judge your life one day.
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  #272  
Old 31st May 2010, 02:31 AM
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davo davo is offline
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Default Re: how can we best explain our existence ?

Mate, if you can show evidence not only that the universe needs a cause, which i have put forward exactly the holes in the claims of the kalam which just begs the question, and can show why that cause is intelligent, then that it is also the god you define, i would change my position.
At the moment, you have failed to confront the issues i raised over the kalam argument you are putting forward, let alone the other 2 steps.
I am not making a leap to conclusion based on no evidence, you are.
I put forward quantum foam and virtual particles as observed evidence. Studies have proved things pop in and out of existence all the time.
This is a lot stronger position than you claiming your god holds properties you state are impossible for the universe as a set, based on elements IN the universe.
There can be no causality with no time, yet you state this is fact.
Your argument has a number of critical flaws i raised, and you have not approached them.
Science is not making any claims without evidence, yet you are. You are pointing at what is not confirmed and saying therefor your claims are right, but i pointed out the problems with your claims too, you are just ignoring that tho.
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  #273  
Old 31st May 2010, 08:54 AM
Worldslaziestbusker Worldslaziestbusker is offline
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Default Re: how can we best explain our existence ?

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davo said View Post
Penrose is using big numbers to confuse.
Odds don't mean much when time has no measure.
Improbable is not impossible when you have such huge numbers, that are not taking into account iterations.
Davo makes a good point. Improbable events are not impossible, but people keen to misuse probabilities often treat them as though they are.
A square cirlce is impossible and the likelihood of you encountering one somewhere in the universe is zero.
Winning the lottery is very improbable, but not impossible. So long as there is a one in the probability ratio, it doesn't matter how large the odds against it get, it has been conceded as a possibility.
I don't discount gods as impossible, but I want to see some evidence before I worship one. You haven't provided any. My atheism doesn't hinge on being able to explain anything. It arose because the explanations and evidence provided by religion were incoherent. Calling on atheists to provide answers isn't a defence of your position, though you've been given far better explanations and more than fair hearing on this forum than your questions, evasions and manners warrant.
If you can't concede that your ideas aren't getting traction because they aren't good, continuing to post them isn't going to improve the situation. You could perhaps do some more reading and come back for another try, with new evidence and perspectives, but this thread is getting massive for no real reason.
WLB
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  #274  
Old 31st May 2010, 10:15 AM
Tsid502 Tsid502 is offline
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Default Re: how can we best explain our existence ?

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Worldslaziestbusker said View Post
Davo makes a good point. Improbable events are not impossible, but people keen to misuse probabilities often treat them as though they are.
A square cirlce is impossible and the likelihood of you encountering one somewhere in the universe is zero.
Winning the lottery is very improbable, but not impossible. So long as there is a one in the probability ratio, it doesn't matter how large the odds against it get, it has been conceded as a possibility.
I don't discount gods as impossible, but I want to see some evidence before I worship one. You haven't provided any. My atheism doesn't hinge on being able to explain anything. It arose because the explanations and evidence provided by religion were incoherent. Calling on atheists to provide answers isn't a defence of your position, though you've been given far better explanations and more than fair hearing on this forum than your questions, evasions and manners warrant.
If you can't concede that your ideas aren't getting traction because they aren't good, continuing to post them isn't going to improve the situation. You could perhaps do some more reading and come back for another try, with new evidence and perspectives, but this thread is getting massive for no real reason.
WLB
When someone is not open , and does not wish God in its life, then the best argument will not change the mind of that person.
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  #275  
Old 31st May 2010, 10:17 AM
Sir Patrick Crocodile Sir Patrick Crocodile is offline
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Wink Re: how can we best explain our existence ?

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Tsid502 said View Post
When someone is not open , and does not wish God in its life, then the best argument will not change the mind of that person.
When someone is not open, and does not wish Santa Claus in its life, then the best argument will not change the mind of that person.
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  #276  
Old 31st May 2010, 10:17 AM
Tsid502 Tsid502 is offline
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Default Re: how can we best explain our existence ?

The Condemnation of the Unrighteous

1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people 39 who suppress the truth by their 40 unrighteousness, 41 1:19 because what can be known about God is plain to them, 42 because God has made it plain to them. 1:20 For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people 43 are without excuse. 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God or give him thanks, but they became futile in their thoughts and their senseless hearts 44 were darkened. 1:22 Although they claimed 45 to be wise, they became fools.
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  #277  
Old 31st May 2010, 10:18 AM
Sir Patrick Crocodile Sir Patrick Crocodile is offline
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Default Re: how can we best explain our existence ?

What an angry bastard this god is, don't ya reckon?
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  #278  
Old 31st May 2010, 10:23 AM
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Xeno Xeno is offline
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Default Re: how can we best explain our existence ?

Reading over this since I last looked a page or so ago is practically depressing but not at all unexpected. Tsid502 firmly imagines he is making arguments, and says "where have I mentioned faith" whilst quoting from religious sites and telling us there is no evidence to convince him of anything while he is subject to a belief in a resurrection. I won't go into all the failures to address other people's arguments because that would simply reiterate the entire thread.

It's a funny thing, but it appears to me that Tsid502 imagines gotg to be a positive thing for him, that it is right and proper to insert god into what he personally perceives as a gap, rather than this being emblematic of his failure. His cosmological (kalam) argument, the way he is expressing it, can perhaps be shortened into this example:

Proposition: Absolutely everything necessarily has property X.
Conclusion: Therefore, Y must exist which does not have property X.

That is about it. So logical. Yet in his case even his version of the proposition is untenable, let alone there being zero evidence for the conclusion.

Edited typo to make plurals agree.
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Last edited by Xeno; 31st May 2010 at 10:51 AM.
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  #279  
Old 31st May 2010, 10:25 AM
stewiegriffin81 stewiegriffin81 is offline
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Default Re: how can we best explain our existence ?

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Tsid502 said View Post
I don't agree. The God of the gap argument follows, when science does not know yet the mechanisms of a certain phenomena. The big bang theory is however 80 years old, and solid as ever since, and backed up with solid scientific evidence. Therefore, it is quit reasonable to believe, the universe had a absolute beginning. This being a correct pressuposition, we can deducde, based on logic, that the universe had a cause of its existence.
That cause had to be timeless, spaceless, changeless, uncaused, eternal, unimaginably powerful. All these atributes do fit surprisingly well to the God of the bible.

http://www.everystudent.com/journeys/who2.html
Again and again, you continue to prattle on about a 'cause'.

Yet, again and again, you have utterly failed to provide any reason whatsoever to assume that causality actually exists both prior and external to the universe.

Until you can provide such a reason, your claim to a first cause is null until evidence suggests otherwise.
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  #280  
Old 31st May 2010, 10:31 AM
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GodwinGrey GodwinGrey is offline
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Default Re: how can we best explain our existence ?

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The Condemnation of the Unrighteous


Hee hee
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