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  #11  
Old 22nd January 2018, 06:24 PM
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Default Re: If Adam and Eve Was a Myth, Whence Come Original Sin?

We all know, don’t we, that at some point God and Jesus will also be symbolic. You’d probably think at that point the jig is up, but I wouldn’t bet on it.
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  #12  
Old 22nd January 2018, 06:41 PM
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Default Re: If Adam and Eve Was a Myth, Whence Come Original Sin?

The evolutionary accomodation hits an abrupt wall where people are concerned in my experience.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 06:42 PM
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Default Re: If Adam and Eve Was a Myth, Whence Come Original Sin?

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But Catholic secondary colleges and universities must teach evolution if they are going to teach modern science more or less properly. The contradiction isn't discussed, the elephant in the room. Don't think about it.
Precisely.

The contradictions between modern science and traditional Catholic teaching are the elephant in the room.

One of the differences between Protestant fundamentalism and Catholicism is that for Protestant fundies the absolute truth of the Bible is pretty much the entirety of their belief system. Whereas for Catholics the Bible is just part of their belief system.

So Catholic institutions focus on the "important bits" in the bible, and the central tenets of their faith. And just what the important bits and the central tenets are is, of course, as flexible as they want it to be.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 07:03 PM
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Default Re: If Adam and Eve Was a Myth, Whence Come Original Sin?

In Catholicism salvation comes with being baptised into Mother Church.

Plus taking the Eucharist every Mass.

Otherwise you go to Hell.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 08:24 PM
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Default Re: If Adam and Eve Was a Myth, Whence Come Original Sin?

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If there was no Original Sin, then Jesus did not need to die on the cross and the wheels fall off their faith.



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  #16  
Old 22nd January 2018, 09:12 PM
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Default Re: If Adam and Eve Was a Myth, Whence Come Original Sin?

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As far as I can find on the webz, Catholic dogma still upholds Adam and Eve and Original Sin even though evolution has been granted some indulgence. Well they can't very well not accommodate it, can they? After all they don't want to be associated with Protestant creationists, give them any quarter.

Pope Pius X11's encyclical letter 1950 is a study in typical Catholic obscurantism. Authoritarian, dogmatic. They simply pass over their theological dilemma, decline to try and explain their way out of their predicament. Adam and Eve doesn't square with evolution. They take a pass on reading a proper book on the subject. It is irrelevant to them. Pell always was of this mindset. Extraordinary arrogance. They are all sus.

But Catholic secondary colleges and universities must teach evolution if they are going to teach modern science more or less properly. The contradiction isn't discussed, the elephant in the room. Don't think about it.

These teachers live with their cognitive dissonance, existential inauthenticity.
Thanks for researching that Strato, I just saw that elephant in the link that you provided. I missed it on first reading. Just in case anyone else did too :

Quote:
Catholics reconcile the two beliefs by being allowed to believe in evolution, but required to believe in the existence of Adam and Eve.

For the purposes of this discussion, evolution is the scientific hypothesis that the physical bodies of various living beings have developed from those of other living beings of different species. To believe in evolution is to hold evolution as a scientific hypothesis, subject to falsifiability in the event of countering evidence (that is, evidence that can only be explained if the hypothesis is false).

With these definitions in mind, then, the Catholic Church neither requires nor forbids Catholics to believe in evolution—to the extent (and only to the extent) that such a belief is not found to conflict with Church teaching. However, the Church does require that Catholics assert that there were a single original man and woman, who sinned, and who are the ancestors of all subsequent humans.

The encyclical letter Humani Generis, written by Pope Pius XII in 1950, discusses (among other philosophical stances the Church considers to be errors or heresies) evolution as it has sometimes been used to back an existential, relativist view of the world. Pope Pius writes:

The Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God. However, this must be done in such a way that the reasons for both opinions, that is, those favorable and those unfavorable to evolution, be weighed and judged with the necessary seriousness, moderation and measure, and provided that all are prepared to submit to the judgment of the Church, to whom Christ has given the mission of interpreting authentically the Sacred Scriptures and of defending the dogmas of faith.

(paragraph 36)

In other words, the Church has no issue with discussion of evolution as science, and purely as science; it's when the scientific conclusions are used to back philosophical statements at variance with the revealed Truth, or when evolution is held as if it were a matter of Faith, that the Church takes issue.

Pope Pius continues, however:

The faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.

(paragraph 37)

In other words, if Adam and Eve were not a single pair of people, who sinned, and who were the ancestors of all subsequent humans, it would be possible to deny that all human beings are subject to original sin. Since this is a matter of Faith—something which cannot be denied without committing heresy—there appears to be no way to hold that Adam and Eve were not literal beings.

The Pope concludes by mandating that teachers of the Catholic faith not present such statements (e.g. that Adam was not a real person, but represents a number of early humans) as fact.

Note: To believe that there were two humans who were the ancestors of all subsequent humans is scientifically reasonable, as I understand things. That is, it appears that the statement found above in this question:

The theory of evolution ... implies—if we don't misinterpret the theory—that Adam and Eve never existed

may be false without contradicting what is known scientifically about humans; and the Catholic Church, as appears in this document, officially believes that it is false.
It's like they are saying, "la, la, la" and covering their ears, lol!
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  #17  
Old 23rd January 2018, 09:07 AM
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Default Re: If Adam and Eve Was a Myth, Whence Come Original Sin?

Have you heard of those orchards where you pay a few bucks and get to pick your own fruit. Catholicism as it is practised by the bulk of the populace is a bit like that. But even though they have big 10 litre buckets, they only get about 2 or three cherries each. But they don't mind, because it's not the cherries that keep them coming back, it's the friendly chat with members of their extended family, and other ethnically similar types.

The problem is that the orchard is run by an evil cabal of clerics, who take all the money and use it to buy machines to pick the cherries, mix them with poison, and distribute them to the parts of the congregation who a vulnerable to this sort of toxin.
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  #18  
Old 24th January 2018, 08:54 PM
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Default Re: If Adam and Eve Was a Myth, Whence Come Original Sin?

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The evolutionary accomodation hits an abrupt wall where people are concerned in my experience.
I think it's sorta funny Loki that a lot of believers accept micro, but reject macro evolution. Which to my understanding is just the same thing, but happens on a much greater scale. I know that they think hoomans are special, but it is undeniable that we are part of the animal kingdom.

Why don't they just roll over and say that all evolution is a fact, but Goddidit?
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Old 24th January 2018, 09:12 PM
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Default Re: If Adam and Eve Was a Myth, Whence Come Original Sin?

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I think it's sorta funny Loki that a lot of believers accept micro, but reject macro evolution. Which to my understanding is just the same thing, but happens on a much greater scale. I know that they think hoomans are special, but it is undeniable that we are part of the animal kingdom.

Why don't they just roll over and say that all evolution is a fact, but Goddidit?
I think all theistic evolutionists are in fact creationists, but differ with creationist sin that they agree evolution is a fact AND god created the evolutionary process, and this automatic process took over. Like god put the auto transmission into drive, and away evolution went.
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  #20  
Old 23rd February 2018, 03:08 PM
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Default Re: If Adam and Eve Was a Myth, Whence Come Original Sin?

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Back in 2013, Cardinal Pell declared publicly that the Adam and Eve story was a myth. See around 32:40 in this Q and A debate with Richard Dawkins:

. . .

If it was a myth, how do Catholics reconcile the concept of Original Sin? Dawkins pressed this also, but the question was pushed aside, letting Pell off the hook. If there was no Original Sin, then Jesus did not need to die on the cross and the wheels fall off their faith.

Does anyone know how they account for this?
If original sin is a myth, then I wonder how we all came to be sinners. I cannot figure out how the story of Adam & Eve & All is a metaphor for anything ~ if it is, for what ?

So if we're all sinners, and need to be saved by Jesus, (according to the Christian theists ), then didn't their god build the sin into us. Now if that's the case, "God" built sin into us, then made "himself" human, so that "he" could come down and save us from the sin "he" put there, and the mechanism for that saving was for "him" to sacrifice "himself" to "himself", and then demand that we all bow down to "his son" and "him", to save us from "himself" and "his" wrath. It gets even more complicated when the religious folks start to say that hell is only metaphorical too. What happens to us sinners who don't join the club then ?

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