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Old 19th January 2018, 03:02 PM
bigalzz bigalzz is offline
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Default preacher claims he caused a limb to grow!!

hi all. my first time here.
i had an encounter with a preacher in Eagleby Queensland who claimed to have caused a limb to grow... now he may have meant that the limb just grew a little and not an entire regrowth. but he is using this claim in his spiel. i tried to debate him, but i am not a competent debater and he was cautious and reluctant to engage in any depth. but i'd like to invite any interested parties to help me expose this fraud. he's trying to establish a following in his "new church". (a shop front in the shopping center)
let me know if you have any ideas.
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Old 19th January 2018, 03:05 PM
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The Irreverent Mr Black The Irreverent Mr Black is offline
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Default Re: preacher claims he caused a limb to grow!!

I think we've seen you here before!

Regarding your preacher: not the old "Oh no, God made it grow too long! (Starts praying to get it evened up)" trick, characteristic of Clark Taylor, is it?
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Old 19th January 2018, 03:09 PM
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bruce1937 bruce1937 is offline
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Default Re: preacher claims he caused a limb to grow!!

High Bigalzz, your post count shows you have been here before, you must have forgotten about us so welcome back.
I am aware of parts of the body growing given some stimulus but I suspect that is not what he is claiming.
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Old 19th January 2018, 04:00 PM
stevebrooks stevebrooks is offline
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Default Re: preacher claims he caused a limb to grow!!

Quote:
bigalzz said View Post
hi all. my first time here.
i had an encounter with a preacher in Eagleby Queensland who claimed to have caused a limb to grow... now he may have meant that the limb just grew a little and not an entire regrowth. but he is using this claim in his spiel. i tried to debate him, but i am not a competent debater and he was cautious and reluctant to engage in any depth. but i'd like to invite any interested parties to help me expose this fraud. he's trying to establish a following in his "new church". (a shop front in the shopping center)
let me know if you have any ideas.
The problem here is defining evidence. For us evidence requires being repeatable and refutable, in other words his claim isn't evidence. before and after pictures would be evidence of a sort but this is an extraordinary claim, so he needs extraordinary evidence.

The reason he was cautious and reluctant to engage on any depth is because he essentially has no evidence, however this gets back to defining evidence. Religious people are willing to accept extraordinarily flimsy evidence, they may in fact simply accept his claim as sufficient evidence. If that is the case then you may never successfully debate with him and expose him as fraudulent to his followers, you may have to be satisfied exposing him as fraudulent to the wider community.
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Old 19th January 2018, 04:26 PM
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The Irreverent Mr Black The Irreverent Mr Black is offline
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Default Re: preacher claims he caused a limb to grow!!

From the notes for my book (the one I should be working on):

Quote:
The Heeeeeeeeeeeeeealer was doing a sort of cold-reading. He didn’t need to do a lot of the preliminaries that stage psychics do: he had the “need“, “religion” and “can be compelled” boxes ticked, thanks to the people being in a Congregation Of The Excitable.

So he came to each person, and after a bit of question-and-answer he would get a bit specific, speak some platitudes, then RAISE HIS VOICE and move right into the victim’s personal zone.

If they didn’t fall down at first, he repeated the last few steps. I’ve put a chicken’s head on the ground and drawn a chalk line away from the beak: isn’t nature wonderful?

I was about the last person in line. The great showman asked me (quietly) if I had a problem with my back or legs. He didn’t give me much time beyond a “yes”, when he suddenly became all theatrical and loud again, and started rabbiting on about…
my legs, and how they were of unequal length, and how, LOOK, my left (or was it right?) leg was GROWING and NOW THEY WERE EVEN!!!
Insert David Byrne Talking Heads Voice here:
“The same as it ever was,the same as it ever was…“

My legs were always bloody well even!

I felt a number of things:
1 - Cheated and cheapened;
2 - Like shouting “Bullshit!” and giving the game away;
3 - Fear - I was in a minority of one, and may have been crushed in a mosh-pit of devout loons trying to “drive out the demons” if I ruined the show;
4 - Like getting far from this farce and staying away.

I realised I wasn’t going to get away until the old charlatan had all he wanted, so I surreptitiously glanced over my shoulder to be sure a couple of beefy members of the Faithful were in range, and did my best Slow Pratfall. It hurt.
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Old 19th January 2018, 05:04 PM
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Darwinsbulldog Darwinsbulldog is offline
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Default Re: preacher claims he caused a limb to grow!!

Quote:
bigalzz said View Post
hi all. my first time here.
i had an encounter with a preacher in Eagleby Queensland who claimed to have caused a limb to grow... now he may have meant that the limb just grew a little and not an entire regrowth. but he is using this claim in his spiel. i tried to debate him, but i am not a competent debater and he was cautious and reluctant to engage in any depth. but i'd like to invite any interested parties to help me expose this fraud. he's trying to establish a following in his "new church". (a shop front in the shopping center)
let me know if you have any ideas.
Different species and groups of organisms vary in the extent of regeneration they are capable of. All organisms can regenerate some tissues, like skin, blood, etc, but limb regeneration has some special problems. Part of the problem is the evolution of limb regeneration can have serious side effects, like cancer. Because these genetic systems are evolve to switch off once growth and development has ceased and the organism is an adult.

The Squamata [scaled reptiles] have several examples of tail regeneration, and although the group is known for having some long-lived species, the tail-re-growers are mostly small and not long lived.

In any case, it should be quite straight-forward to prove or disprove any case of limb re-growth in humans or other animals, and do it within the purview of methodological naturalism.

During limb re-growth, as in the original development of the limb from the fertilised egg, some really complex biochemical pathways have to be activated, in the right order, in the right places, at the correct concentrations, or the limb won't develop properly.

Vertebrate limbs whether they be fins, wings or legs have three the developmental zones. The upper arm or thigh is called the stylopod, the lower arm/leg is called the zeugopod and the hand/foot the autopod. Development therefore proceeds in three phases, so the nature of the amputation is important. [Where the injury actually occurred in the arm].

Knockout phenotype experiments have determined which gene products are expressed where. So for example with the Homeobox genes [sort of master control genes that cause other genes to express or not express in the developmental sequence]. The upper arm expresses Hox d-9 and d-10, the lower arms expresses the Hox pattern d-9, d-9, d-10 then d-9, d-10 and d-11, then those first three plus d-12, then those first 4 plus d-13. Finally, in the "hand" or autopod, we have Hox a-13, then a-13 plus d-13, then the first two plus d-12, d-11 and d-10. And we have just begun. Eventually this gene expression casade "decides" where actual protein activating factors like fgf- group start to lay down specific blood vessels, nerves, muscles and skeletal tissues.

But even before that the "limb bud" has to go expressing various patterns of factors like BMP, Wnt, Lmx, etc to lay the basic pattern of partly differentiated cells in the AER.

Now if we could persuade the person who is experiencing limb re-growth to have some blood samples taken and some tissue biopsies in the relevant places, I am certain we would find the right concentrations of these many gene products in the growing limb. So in principle, limb re-growth in humans is scientifically testable. And I am reasonably certain that even after this "miracle" has occurred, that there may sufficient remnant of all this biochemical activity in the lib concerned or even in the bloodstream, and this also could be tested and compared to levels of these chemical in people who are not experiencing limb regrowth.

I am guessing that if we found such activity, we would at least know the mechanism of limb growth, and that it had a naturalistic explanation. It would just be an unusual phenomenon with no obvious or necessary connection to a god or prayer.

Cyclopamine disrupts hedgehog signalling in sheep development, causing a one-eyed cyclops effect. This too was once thought to be the work of supernatural forces [one of the few instances where were can prove that the myth was real as a phenomenon, but falsely attributed to supernatural agency as the causation].

REFS:

Carroll, S.B; Grenier, J.K and Weatherbee, S.D (2005) "From DNA To Diversity: Molecular genetics and the Evolution of Animal Design" 2nd Ed. Blackwell, New York.

Blumberg, Mark S. (2009) "Freaks Of Nature: and what they tell us about development and evolution". Oxford University Press.
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Last edited by Darwinsbulldog; 19th January 2018 at 05:42 PM.
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  #7  
Old 19th January 2018, 06:09 PM
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Default Re: preacher claims he caused a limb to grow!!

It's a miracle!!1!

50 000 mobile phones in Eagleby and not one managed to snap a coupla picks of the majick regrowing.
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Old 19th January 2018, 06:37 PM
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Darwinsbulldog Darwinsbulldog is offline
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Default Re: preacher claims he caused a limb to grow!!

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Loki said View Post
It's a miracle!!1!

50 000 mobile phones in Eagleby and not one managed to snap a coupla picks of the majick regrowing.
Not being one to blow his own trumpet, god decided to disable the camera function of phones in the area.

ETA:-
Sorry for all the acronyms in my last post. if I wrote out the full names of all the bits and pieces I would be typing it all out until next Tuesday.
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Last edited by Darwinsbulldog; 19th January 2018 at 06:40 PM.
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Old 19th January 2018, 11:59 PM
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Default Re: preacher claims he caused a limb to grow!!

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Darwinsbulldog said View Post

ETA:-
Sorry for all the acronyms in my last post. if I wrote out the full names of all the bits and pieces I would be typing it all out until next Tuesday.
Yeah nah you don't get out of it that easy.

Yet there's little else to say.

Those who think Christianity is about moral integrity and probity and all are a bit naif.

This miracle-vehicle individual clearly realises that if little else and turns it to his profit.

What's the gentleman's name biggalz?
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