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  #61  
Old 14th November 2017, 11:14 AM
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Default Re: intelligent creator

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The Irreverent Mr Black said View Post
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dadmansabode said View Post
I thought this was a good presentation for the origins of man and the Universe
Indeed the things seen came about by the things unseen




Indeed Science has no ability to touch the Supernatural (eternity) where time does not exist
Science is generally piss-poor at punching unicorns too.

DMA, I don't like the sneaky way you embed links to your "forum" under pictures in the text. The moderators may see that as spamming.

For my part, I find the idea of a "forum" which is read-only to be as ludicrous as the "freedom" of obeying a set of Bronze-Age dick-worshipping rules.

Maybe one day you'll have more than snide one-liners and spam-drops to offer. Till then, I might drop in now and then to scorn your more egregious efforts.

(I know it's generally poor form to reply to the suspended, but I see Dadmansadobe is hanging around on the sidelines, and he may well be wanting something to read.)
Given what we have seen, a read only forum may play to his strengths.
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Last edited by odd; 14th November 2017 at 12:54 PM.
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  #62  
Old 14th November 2017, 11:36 AM
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Default Re: intelligent creator



late to the party as usual.
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  #63  
Old 14th November 2017, 04:42 PM
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Darwinsbulldog Darwinsbulldog is offline
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Default Re: intelligent creator

Quote:
dadmansabode said View Post
Simple Simple Simple question

the words you typed above wolty, the letters you chose, the spaces and the punctuation you placed ..... did they

1. fall where they are via random undirected chance .... or
2. where they the result of intelligent design, displaying the intent of a conceptual point



...
Let me address this fallacy of design please.

First, there are things which are indeed designed. Human beings design all sorts of things. But a lot of other things do appear to be designed. Richard Dawkins called these objects "designoid".

But what is design?

There are three components really.

1. Structure
2. Function
and
3. Purpose.

So let's use our imagination and design a chair. The purpose of the chair is to sit on [people can use them for other functions too, like stand on a chair to replace a light globe].

For a chair to be functional, it has to have a viable design or structure. A chair with only two legs might be unstable. I suppose you could have many legs on the chair, and that would work, but most folks opt for three or four legs.

Deliberate design of this type is so common is society, we take it for granted. So we just assume, if something is functional, it must have been designed, and designed with a purpose in mind. And if something is designed, it surely must have a designer. Quite reasonable so far. Even non-human animals can make and use tools. You won't find them designing space shuttles, but termite nests are pretty cool.

But there is a twist. Designoid things, which have structure and function, can arise without a designer. In other words, with no purpose. The problem is that when people see designoid things, they assume purpose without really thinking about it. Like life.

So let's see if such a system can arise naturally.

I did mention that a designer has imagination. He/she visualises the chair, and how nice it would be to sit down on one.

OK, that means we have to have a proxy that can do the job of imagination, AND something that could work in the absence of cognitive thought.

Random variation can supply this. Living things replicate in one way or another. But if random variation happened in isolation, there would be chaos, right?

So we have to have a filter, which we may agree, has some of the functionality of cognitive thought. And yes, Charles Darwin and others discovered it. It is called "Natural Selection".

Suppose for example, that an animal required a thick coat to live in a cold climate. All those animals born with thicker fur would tend to survive and reproduce more than those with thin coats. There is your filter, the environment. Moreover, animals without fur coats would tend to migrate to warmer lands, and those with coats would tend to migrate to cooler places.

Natural filters occur in the non-living world too. Evaporation of water causes clouds to form, which will eventually release their water as rain or now etc, and this water can be purer than the water on the ground. Otherwise we would all be drinking kangaroo piss or something. When water passes though some type of rock or sand, this can tend to filter and purify also. So, no magic required.

But the main fallacy in your argument is that you have to demonstrate the intelligent creator exists first, before you can credit him/her with these "designs". So make god, or intelligent aliens a reality first.
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Last edited by Darwinsbulldog; 14th November 2017 at 04:46 PM.
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  #64  
Old 15th November 2017, 02:18 PM
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Default Re: intelligent creator

The Book of Meh

Dadmansabode 1:1

Yea did Dadmansabode cometh before the wall of the non-believers
As it has ever been, and as it ever will be, he did vomit upon the wall
And he was proud of his vomit, for it glittered unto his own eyes with the gleam of Truth
And he was proud for he had earned the points of Jesus for spraying the wall of unbelief with his vomit

Dadmansabode 1:2

Alas, the unbelievers did poketh his vomit and it was void of substance
And yet did Dadmansabode proceed to exclaim that it was shiny! So very shiny!
But even the simplest of thought could detect nothing but empty bile

Dadmansabode 1:3

And then did the warrior Mod come upon the wall, and Dadmansabode was found to be craven and of as little substance as his vomit
And the warrior did banish the vomiter of bile to the distant lands of Suspendia
For as it has always been and as it will ever be, Suspendia is the place for those of empty vomit

Dadmansabode 1:4

And as it has ever been, and as it will ever be, the non-believers were heard to utter, "Meh"
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  #65  
Old 15th November 2017, 03:12 PM
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Default Re: intelligent creator

Quote:
dadmansabode said View Post
Seriously ?? you can't display the differences between patterns and code ??

I'll give you a hint .... is sheet music pattern or code




...this is not ending well folks
The ASCII to decimal equivalent of the text of this entire thread, including whatever hasn't been written yet, in exact order, appears at some unknown point in pi. Completely by chance.
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  #66  
Old 15th November 2017, 03:16 PM
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Default Re: intelligent creator

Quote:
MikeJay said View Post
Quote:
dadmansabode said View Post
Seriously ?? you can't display the differences between patterns and code ??

I'll give you a hint .... is sheet music pattern or code




...this is not ending well folks
The ASCII to decimal equivalent of the text of this entire thread, including whatever hasn't been written yet, in exact order, appears at some unknown point in pi. Completely by chance.
BelieverType counters with "... as foretold in prophecy", and wheels in that book-selling fellow to inform us it's all there in the Koine Greek.
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  #67  
Old 15th November 2017, 03:20 PM
MikeJay MikeJay is offline
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Default Re: intelligent creator

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The Irreverent Mr Black said View Post
BelieverType counters with "... as foretold in prophecy", and wheels in that book-selling fellow to inform us it's all there in the Koine Greek.
I'll bet they don't understand Pi is the infinite expression of the million monkeys typing analogy.
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  #68  
Old 15th November 2017, 03:40 PM
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Default Re: intelligent creator

I like Pi. I also like Pie. I detect a pattern.
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  #69  
Old 18th November 2017, 11:53 PM
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DanDare DanDare is offline
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Default Re: intelligent creator

This question is for when you return to us:

Quote:
dadmansabode said View Post
I need the answer for this claim: with intelligent creation we must have intelligent creator.

Indeed .... only intelligence can beget intelligence .... only life can beget life
You have the following claims:
1: only intelligence can beget intelligence
2: only life can beget life
3: with intelligent creation we must have intelligent creator

3 is just a tautology that has no value as a claim. "Intelligent creation" is simply defined as that produced by an "intelligent creator"

so for 3 to be a claim it must be split thus:

3: there is an intelligent creator
4: there is an intelligent creation

I would accept that a computer like the one I am using is an intelligent creation and than one or more human beings were the intelligent creators ultimately. However this device was probably created in actuality by an automaton which immediately breaks the claim that there "must be" an intelligent creator for every intelligent creation. If humans disappeared but the factory kept going then intelligent creations would keep being created by unintelligent automatons.

I assume you wish to claim that the universe is an intelligent creation and that there is some deity that was the intelligent creator. If that is the case you must demonstrate both those claims.

So, here are the questions that you must answer upon returning:


1: claim: only intelligence can beget intelligence. Question: how can you show this claim to be the case?

2: claim: only life can beget life. Question: how can you show this claim to be the case?

3: The universe is an intelligent creation. Question: how can you show this claim to be the case?

4: There is a deity that acts as an intelligent creator for the universe. Question: how can you show this claim to be the case?
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Burden of proof is the obligation on somebody presenting a claim to provide evidence to support its truth (a warrant). Once evidence has been presented, it is up to any opposing "side" to show the evidence presented is not adequate. If claims were accepted without warrants, then every claim could simultaneously be claimed to be true.

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  #70  
Old 19th November 2017, 05:49 AM
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Default Re: intelligent creator

The funny thing about the assertion that intelligence is required to beget intelligence is that it leads one straight into the kind of infinite regress that makes apologists' heads explode, and for which the entire class of 'prime mover' arguments were erected to defeat.

This is among the worst of the cognitive dissonances faced by apologists who erect asinine arguments without understanding them.

Incidentally, Danny, you up for a Skype chat sometime soon? I have most of the day available tomorrow.
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Last edited by hackenslash; 19th November 2017 at 05:51 AM.
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