The HALAL and KOSHER thread: religious food fads.

[AndyVetSA]

Originally Posted by The Irreverent Mr Black

Just a curiosity marker here: I have seen the meat cut up and packed in local Woolworths and Coles stores (only as one viewing the butchers at work, or waiting for a cut-on-request job), and I have seen that pork products and other meats are prepared in the same area, using the same slabs and machines.

While this of course says nothing about the slaughter method, it would make all the meat prepared in that outlet haram by virtue of touching, or association with, Miss Piggy's deceased relatives. What would be the point of halal slaughter if the point of delivery is ritually unclean?

Note: If somebody can reliably prove Coles and Woolies meat is all halal-killed, I can pretty well guarantee a tornado from the Xtian fundies, because they are not allowed to eat "meat that has been offered to idols" (and allah would qualify as one of these).

I am asking around to see if I can get some hard evidence from people in the industry. There is no doubt now that many of the large catering firms only use halal meat as this information comes from multiple sources.

[Aldaron]

I remember reading something similar to this some time ago - I think it was with regard to chocolate bars (Cadbury ?) or somesuch. The response was along the lines of: 'There's no special processing of the ingredients to make it halal - it's just that there's nothing in there that would make it NOT halal'.

Basically, they put it on to tell a practicing Muslim that it's fine to eat it...it doesn't mean the chocolate was ritually slaughtered!!

Re: pork and bacon - we've stopped eating them since we learned that pigs have the ability to play video games. I can't eat something smart enough to play a computer game!

[owheelj]

I don't follow the reason for not eating vegemite?

[owheelj]

Update from Woolworths. Unfortunately I submitted my question by a form on their website and not via email, so I don't know exactly what I wrote but I'll try to recreate it too.

Originally Posted by Owheelj

Dear Woolworths, I recently heard that all the fresh meat (non autostockR) that you sell is Halal. I was wondering whether this was true, and whether it differed from state to state or reflected a national policy?

Originally Posted by Woolworths

Dear Jeremy,

Woolworths ensures that every product it sells is guaranteed by the producer to be true to label, fit for sale in every respect, and compliant with all relevant laws, regulations and expected community standards in areas such as sustainability, as detailed in our Corporate Responsibility Report, available on our website: http://www.woolworthslimited.com.au.

Part of that product warranty is that the producer will ensure that appropriate detail is included on the product label to allow customers to make an informed choice. For instance, if one of the customer’s selection criteria is whether the product, or some of its ingredients, is Halal or not, this will be noted on the pack and the customer can choose to buy or not to buy.

However there is no central register of Halal products ranged in Woolworths’ stores, and therefore none can be provided on request. Such a list would mean the creation of a register based on information that originates from third parties, and require us to rely on people not responsible to us to keep it up to date. We could not in good faith provide any assurance that such a list would be remotely reliable, and in addition to therefore being of dubious value, it’s maintenance would impose an administrative cost on prices to customers that we could not justify.

The solution may come in due course through the many organisations which are looking to produce mobile phone apps that will scan and display non-mandatory product attributes that are guaranteed to be correct by the manufacturer and loaded into the product bar-code.

In the area of fresh meats, Woolworths does not specifically slaughter livestock that is to be labelled as Halal. [Woolworths also does not slaughter any livestock using the kosher method of slaughter]. Processing sites which slaughter for the market generally, including supply to Woolworths, may slaughter animals using the Halal method. However there are 6 trial stores in NSW that currently stock Halal beef and lamb meats, and these products are clearly marked ‘Halal’. Woolworths itself does not hold Halal certification or accreditation.

Woolworths also purchases fresh chicken products from a range of poultry suppliers across Australia. All these fresh poultry suppliers are subject to the Woolworths Quality Assurance programme [WQA] and must pass regular third party audits.

They include large processors such as Inghams Enterprises and Baiada Poultry, who advise us they process in accordance to Halal principles. Our understanding is that processors who have Halal certification / accreditation process in accordance with Halal principles only. These major processors are of course the same companies who supply chicken to businesses across Australia, including other supermarket chains, butchers, food service suppliers, hotels, take-away shops and fast food restaurants.

As with all the products sold in our stores, we ensure that as well as meeting the highest quality specifications they are sourced at the lowest possible price to the customers through rigorous comparison and competition between the prices of all manufacturers, irrespective of any individual production methods or processes they use. In this way we can be assured no costs one manufacturer may incur over another results in any imposition on the end consumer.

Kind regards,



Blanca | Supermarket Specialist Team
Woolworths Contact Centre
PO Box 8000, Baulkham Hills, NSW 2153
t 1300 767 969

[BlueDevil]

Originally Posted by AndyVetSA
Well. If you or I want to work as a slaughter person in an AUSTRALIAN abattoir that is producing halal meat for the AUSTRALIAN POPULATION. You can't apply because you are not a Muslim. That is discrimination against AUSTRALIAN WORKERS. It is a disgrace.

I guess when I read a statement like this I tend to interpret it a little, and recognize that people often use abbreviated versions of what they are saying. I of course, can't speak on Andy's behalf, and only he can explain what his intentions where. However I would tend to read a statement such as that above as follows:

Originally Posted by AndyVetSA
Well. If you or I want to work as a slaughter person in an AUSTRALIAN abattoir that is producing halal meat (potentially) for the (entire) AUSTRALIAN POPULATION. You can't apply because you are not a Muslim. That is discrimination against (non-muslim) AUSTRALIAN WORKERS. It is a disgrace.

(My additions in red)

I sort of see this as being similar to the fact that I sometimes casually say "there is no god" when what I really mean is "there is probably no god"

Apologies to Andy if my way of viewing his statement is incorrect.

[BlueDevil]

Originally Posted by Logic please

In that case, you'd similarly object to "your" food being subject to other religious rituals, like being prayed over by a christian saying Grace, for instance?

An interesting point that you raise. Can't say that I have previously given it much thought so thanks for raising it.

I guess I would personally see a distinction between halal 'prayers' and 'Grace'

Halal 'prayers' occur at time of slaughter and are not something I have any influence over. I would prefer it didn't occur, but I may not be aware of whether it has or hasn't been done if the meat is not clearly labelled 'halal'. I would however be more concerned by the slaughter process itself than some silly incantation from someone who believes there is something magical about talking to their imaginary friend over a slaughtered animal. I am no expert on halal but I presume it is an all or none 'package deal' - prayers, facing Mecca, unstunned animal bled to death using an unserrated knife etc My objection to the halal prayers then would be more related to the fact that it is an inherent component of a ridiculous and cruel process that is quite simply a complete load of primitive rubbish!

Grace however depends on the 'end user'. There has been no officially recognised religious process that has occurred prior to the food arriving on your table. You can personally choose whether you wish to say grace or not. Problems arise though in social circumstances where someone else says grace supposedly on behalf of all at the table you are sitting at. I guess I tend to see this as something that applies to those sitting there who are believers, but as a non-believer I 'mentally' opt out (as I do at any occasion where prayers are said in my presence) and I don't feel that I, or my food, have participated in any way.

[owheelj]

Originally Posted by BlueDevil

An interesting point that you raise. Can't say that I have previously given it much thought so thanks for raising it.

I guess I would personally see a distinction between halal 'prayers' and 'Grace'

Halal 'prayers' occur at time of slaughter and are not something I have any influence over. I would prefer it didn't occur, but I may not be aware of whether it has or hasn't been done if the meat is not clearly labelled 'halal'. I would however be more concerned by the slaughter process itself than some silly incantation from someone who believes there is something magical about talking to their imaginary friend over a slaughtered animal. I am no expert on halal but I presume it is an all or none 'package deal' - prayers, facing Mecca, unstunned animal bled to death using an unserrated knife etc My objection to the halal prayers then would be more related to the fact that it is an inherent component of a ridiculous and cruel process that is quite simply a complete load of primitive rubbish!

Grace however depends on the 'end user'. There has been no officially recognised religious process that has occurred prior to the food arriving on your table. You can personally choose whether you wish to say grace or not. Problems arise though in social circumstances where someone else says grace supposedly on behalf of all at the table you are sitting at. I guess I tend to see this as something that applies to those sitting there who are believers, but as a non-believer I 'mentally' opt out (as I do at any occasion where prayers are said in my presence) and I don't feel that I, or my food, have participated in any way.

Yep - I agree completely. People can say whatever they like about my food, if it doesn't damage the food, cost me money, or involve unnecessary harm to the food, I don't care (at least enough to make a fuss). Of course in this case it's possible that unnecessary harm and increased costs do occur - but it's not the prayers that are the problem.

[AndyP]

Re Woolworths, not sure where the halal reference came from, but I have done a fair amount of work on the kill floor at various woolworths abattoirs in QLD and I can assure you there is no halal meat in any of them. In fact, its one of the cleanest, most animal friendly kill floors I have ever worked on. They are paranoid about animal liberationists.

Might I also add, that up there with woolies is inghams. I have worked parts of their industry, from the feed mill to the processing plants that makes chicken nuggets.

[Plankton]

You might be surprised how much chicken you eat is Halal. I'll leave it up to you to see who is and isn't halal accredited.

I emailed the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils (the accrediting body) about their slaughter methods a couple years ago. Here's what I learned:


Slaughtering Requirements & Procedures

PRIMARY CONDITIONS:

þ The slaughter-man should be a Muslim approved by AFIC
þ There should be intention ofTasmiyah (Bismillah)before slaughtering.
þ Recitation of Tasmiyah(only with the name of Allah, not having any other name) should be done for each bird.
þ In the act of slaughter, the trachea, esophagus and major blood vessels in the neck region (jugular and carotid) of the bird must be severed leaving the spinal cord intact.

þ The entire Halal slaughtering operation will be carried out in the presence of Muslim slaughter-men/supervisor
þ Recitation of Tasmiyah (Bismillah) at the time of slaughtering should be done without long time gap between theTasmiyah (Bismillah)and the action of slaughtering.
þ At least Two (2) to four (4) Muslim (the AFIC nominated) slaughter men to be appointed depending on the establishment and volume of production, one of them being a supervisor and a backup at all times by taking turns. (For detail, please refer to Halal agreement, p 4).

A Halal Quality Assurance Officer nominated by AFIC is to be appointed to ensure an ongoing overall Halal status of the accredited plants and products is maintained on a daily basis during the period of Halal accreditation.

Duties & Responsibility of Muslim Slaughter-man 1:

þ Bless each bird by touching while invoking Tasmiyah i.e., “Bismillah” meaning “In the name of Allah”
þ Must rotate the act of blessing in turn with either Slaughter-Man 2 or 3 at least every 10-15 minutes interval
þ Must not leave the slaughtering operation without appointing a back-up to carry out the task in case of emergency

Slaughter-man 2:

þ Act as backup slaughter-man for bird(s) missed from Mechanical knife during entire operation
þ Recite Tasmiyah i.e., “Bismillahi Allahuakbar” during hand slaughtering of a missing bird using a sharp knife
þ Must not leave the slaughtering operation without appointing a back-up to carry out the task in case of emergency

Slaughter-man 3:

Act as online Halal Slaughtering Supervisor and a back-up for Person 1 or 2 as and when required
þ Switch on/off electrical connection to the stunner immediately prior to or at the cease of the operation and/or breakdown
þ Adjust the height of the stunner and to ensure that the birds are not drowned in water during even momentary cease of operation or due to mechanical breakdown – should target the number of birds to die in the stunner to be “ZERO”
þ Adjust the birds in the hanger
þ Sharpen hand knife every 5-10 minutes interval or as required
þ Check reversibility of birds being stunned approximately every 5-10 minutes interval
þ Adjust the height of the mechanical knife according to the size of the birds being hanged.
þ Keep the place clean and hygienic
þ Must stop the operation in case of emergency (eg., to many birds are missing the blade or not properly slaughtered etc) and contact Halal Quality Assurance Officer or Production Manager immediately.

[Centauri]

Ah, the religion of peace!

Here, a KFC employee gets offended [oh, boo-hoo] when customers make a joke about bacon.