Is Israel practicing religious and racial apartheid?

[Dawk]

I know this is a very touchy subject, and it is a question I have pondered over for a long time. For the record, I support Israel's right to exist and acknowledge the strong secular forces in the country. But many things trouble me about the country, especially the rise of ultra-Orthodox Haredi Jews and policies on immigration. Just today I read a story about the imminent deportation of Sudanese asylum seekers. I cannot help but feel that the move may be racially and/or religiously motivated.

This move is also nothing new. Last year I watched a documentary on Dateline about plans to deport second-generation children because they were not Jewish. Far-right parties in the country make no secret about their intentions to keep Israel's Jewish identity.

I know I am not going to be met with charges of anti-Semitism on this forum, but I would be straight in the firing elsewhere. Considering a rational discussion can be had here, I ask: is Israel practicing racism? Is Israel practicing religious persecution? To be honest, I still have not made up my mind. While I find plans to deport assimilated children to be completely disgusting, I cannot ignore the still rampant anti-Semitism that exists in the world today that has shoved Jews into a tight and insular corner.

[Xeno]

There is a shitload to unpack there, Dawk.

Do you support New Zealand's right to exist?* If so, what do you actually mean by that?

When one refers to Jews, is one referring to a race, a culture or a religion?

Should one identify opression by the behaviour or by the target?**

To what extent is past wrong relevant to current right?***

Perhaps more to come.

* just to pick one.

** whichever labels are chosen by whomever in either case.

*** in either sense of right.

[Dawk]

Xeno: The complexities of the questions you ask are why exactly why I have not yet come to a conclusion. But I have some thoughts, so I will touch briefly on your points. (Please forgive the lateness of my reply. Posting a thread covering a sea of information during an intense exam week was probably not the best idea).

I do support Israel's right to be a Jewish state. What exactly makes a Jew is very complicated, concerning racial, cultural and religious questions, as you note. How states construct these definitions and the policies that logically (or illogically?) follow is even more difficult. Questions of definition are best left to democracy (the Israeli vote), I believe, as such definitions are social constructs, just as there is no such thing as a true Scotsman. I hope I am not sounding evasive here, but as you will appreciate, I am not exactly in a position to say who is and who is not Jewish (I am but a white boy of Irish parents).

In my socialist days I completely rejected this concept, as I saw it as nothing but racism. But in addressing your points about oppression and past wrongs, there is one story that immediately springs to mind. That is of Patrol 35, an Israeli neo-Nazi gang. The gang consisted of teenagers whose parents came from the former Soviet Union under Israel's Law of Return, which requires at least one "Jewish" grandparent. The teenagers resented their Jewish backgrounds, and took to attacking Jews and migrant workers.

The actions by the gang sparked fierce debate about Israel's immigration laws and just who should be considered Jewish. There is a fear by many Israelis that if too many of its citizens do not feel connected to a Jewish identity then they may turn against the state, and possibly to anti-Semitic positions. I do not believe these concerns to of no basis.

Just consider the plethora of anti-Jewish propaganda out there. Depending on what website you visit, you may read that the Jews created communism, control international banking, perform blood libel, conspired to bring down the World Trade Centre, control water supplies, created biological diseases, control the US government, and even control the world (after the learned elders of Zion made their plans). Such propaganda can infect even Jewish minds, with the notable story of Dan Burros, a Jewish American who joined the American Nazi Party and later the United Klans of America. Of course, other people of non-white backgrounds can take on such irrational positions through a process of self rejection and identity crisis (such as Australia's Jack van Tongeren, being of Indonesian heritage), but it is the sheer size anti-Jewish hate speech that compounds the problem.

Such propaganda is very popular in the Muslim world, with many desiring nothing short of Jewish extermination. Mein Kampf and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion prove to be popular reads, and I need not mention the many calls for Jews to be pushed in the sea. It is for this reason that many Israelis fear giving Muslims citizenship, and it is a fear that I understand. So, the issue of oppression does not just concern past wrongs, but also current threats. The enormous history of anti-Semitism has manifested itself into easily accessible hate speech and pockets of anti-Semitic populations.

If I am really pressed on this point, and asked if it is ever justified for Israel to practice policies that seen by many as discriminatory, I would reluctantly answer: yes. This does not mean I agree with all current policies, and the idea of a state based on racial and religious grounds will always be an abhorrent idea to me. Prior to the creation of the state of Israel, I think I would have opposed the move to create a Jewish state. But as Christopher Hitchens said, although the concept of Zionism was silly and superstitious to start with, many other states were founded on injustices and foolishness and these are not good reasons to end their existence.

My inability to come to a definitive conclusion rests on some questions I have not been able to answer. Is Israel's current identity under threat? Do current policies alleviate the threat or exacerbate it? Are current definitions of Jews appropriate? Do such definitions perhaps help breed anti-Semitism? I do have thoughts here, but not ones with appropriate depth.

OK, so I guess I touched more than "briefly" on your points . This obviously shows how heavy this shitload is and how much there is to unpack, so I hope I have started something of substance here, and hopefully I can come to greater conclusions through this discussion.

[Seamus]

I do support Israel's right to be a Jewish state.

Israel is not now and has never been a Jewish state. ( a theocracy) It was founded as and remains a state FOR Jews.

Israel has the same right to exist,in any form its people wish, as any other nation.IE:none. A nation exists only for as long as it can defend itself from others.

I am as indifferent to the nation of Israel as I am to most other countries, except as it my country effected.

[Blue Lightning]

This is indeed a controversial topic. IMO, religion plays a particularly counter-productive role in the Middle East. In the Arab world, theocracy, fundamentalist extremists, sharia law that denies basic rights to many – especially women and non-Muslims, widespread barbarism. On the flip side of the coin, Israel. The problem is truly profound.

Philosophers without Gods: Meditations on Atheism and the Secular Life, Louise M. Antony (Ed), ISBN-13: 978-0195173079, Oxford University Press 2007
http://www.amazon.com/Philosophers-w.../dp/0195173074
is a collection of essays written by a number of humanist and atheist philosophers. One of them is Joseph Levine, and he wrote an Essay entitled “From Yeshiva Bochur to Secular Humanist”. He was formerly a devout Jew who has made the journey to atheism. You can read the full essay here on his own website, here: http://www.umass.edu/philosophy/facu...ges/levine.htm

Of relevance to this topic, this is what he had to say:

Though just at the level of ideology this insistence on Jewish specialness bothered me, it wasn’t until I lived in Israel that it began to cause serious internal conflict. It was there that I saw first-hand how Jews treated Arabs the way Jews were themselves treated in Eastern Europe. It took time for this to sink in, but the seeds of future moral outrage were planted then. I could no longer ignore how the ideology of special divine favor was being realized in practice.

I remember years ago talking with a friend of my parents about the relative virtues of various religious traditions. One virtue he maintained for Judaism was its disdain for proselytizing. “Well,” I said, “this can go two ways. It might easily be seen as an expression of racial or ethnic superiority; we are the “chosen people” and won’t encourage others to join us.” He responded that whatever sense of superiority or exclusivity there was in Jewish sensibility was nothing for others to fear, as historically Jews have not been responsible for any of the kinds of crimes against other peoples that have been perpetrated by others, especially against us. I replied, “perhaps historically this has been true, but then we haven’t had any power for two thousand years. Just look what happened once we got some, in Israel.”

Let’s be clear what founding the Jewish State of Israel involved, and continues to involve. We came into another people’s land - admittedly, after enduring centuries of oppression ourselves - kicked them out brutally, and treated those who remained like dirt. We continue to oppress Palestinians horribly, and shamelessly exploit our own history of oppression and guilt-trip the rest of the world into letting us get away with it. This is how God’s people act? Not any God I wanted to have anything to do with.

Of course any people, even God’s chosen people, can act badly, and this alone might not be enough to undermine the doctrine. What bothered me in particular, however, was that this didn’t seem to be an aberration. Both the role of Torah Jewry in actively participating in the oppression and subjugation of Palestinians, and the way that Torah doctrines lent themselves to be exploited for that purpose, made this evident. God gave the land to us, it’s a sin to give any of it back, Arab lives don’t have the same value as Jewish lives - all of these claims have Torah sources. It’s just too natural and easy to slide from thinking of one’s own kind as distinguished by God to thinking of others as beneath contempt.

I want to emphasize that this isn’t just a matter of how the government of Israel behaves. Unfortunately, today, especially in the US, Jewish communal life has been largely hijacked by the Zionist project. Though there are finally some cracks in the wall of defiant support for anything Israel does, the kinds of vicious accusations leveled at anyone who shows concern for Palestinian suffering has made the organized Jewish community an unwelcome place for many who might otherwise seek fellowship there. Though there are many factors that explain this unhappy state of affairs - and again, Jews’ history of oppression is clearly among them - I do believe that the chauvinistic emphasis on the People that is deeply rooted in Torah Judaism is among them.7

I certainly don’t mean to say that I think this problem is peculiar to Torah Judaism. It seems to me history has shown all too well that when community is made a fundamental value around which a form of life is organized, there is a large risk that in circumstances of conflict with other groups things will get very ugly. Jews are no better or worse than others in this regard. My point is just that the Torah, to which I used to look for moral guidance, seemed to be part of the problem here, not the solution.

And Christopher Hitchens also often spoke firmly about the destructive role of religion on both sides of this terrible conflict.

[Dawk]

Originally Posted by Seamus

Israel is not now and has never been a Jewish state. ( a theocracy) It was founded as and remains a state FOR Jews.

I agree, and you will notice that I never advocated a theocracy. My support of a "Jewish" state is based on the idea of a homeland for Jews in the face of a world rife with anti-Semitism.

Israel has the same right to exist,in any form its people wish, as any other nation.

Yes, and that is why I said:

Questions of definition are best left to democracy (the Israeli vote), I believe, as such definitions are social constructs, just as there is no such thing as a true Scotsman.

My concerns are based on how these definitions and the policies that follow affect foreign relations, and how non-Jewish people in Israel are treated. Also, how Israel determines its own existence may impinge on the rights of other nations, as post-1967 they have made various land grabs.

[King Yan Kwan]

I'm reminded of one of Richard Dawkin's slides.

Imagine if we had a world map coloured along the lines, not of religious beliefs but, of what theory of dinosaur extinction people nominally subscribe to. It's pretty silly.

So I think we can agree that people have a right to exist. But I would say they shouldn't be able to decide outside of secular law how people should exist. Anti-semitism is no excuse to do anything that has been done.

[Lyn7]

I don't think discrimination is as much racial but don't know as I mostly know about Israel from the news. Re religious yes when the country has a religion regardless of what religion it is, it will be always discriminatory to those who do not beleive in the main religion . I don't think that my belief amounts to antisemitism but I have heard a lot of people who believe in Judaism use this emotive argument in case when one says things that they disagree with.
I think that countries that have other religions discriminate as well so this does not just apply to Israel.
I don't know much about Israeli laws but I think some will be strongly influenced by religion but before researching more info I can't comment much. The segregation of Palestinians could also be measures against terrorism unrelated to things like religion or race?
Being a non believer/atheist I find it hard to understand things like Jewish identity since if there is no god who then is a Jew?I don't see "them" as Jews but people .

[Lyn7]

I think Scotsman is someone that does exist - someone who comes from country Scotland.
But which country is a Jewland?Muslim-land or Christian -land.
? To me this is all - a Fantasy Land.

[Lyn7]

Ps I noticed that the person who asked the question mentioned security as part of reason I forgot this when writing the reply. It is true it is a difficult topic. With which I'm not very familiar (apart from meeting religious zealots not long ago but that is another story I guess).