Christianity over God(s)..? Is that wierd?

[Centauri]

Oberg, one of the most important things to pay attention to is that you acknowledge the entire bible - the many, many bad bits as well as those you might see as good.

I could easily refer to the old testament here, but the new testament is even worse. Why? The invention of hell. The most wicked preachment ever made.

The Jesus character, if he did exist and say the things he did, uttered some very, very immoral things. For example, he 'will divide the sheep from the goats, and throw the goats into everlasting fire'. What a disgusting thing to say! If your neighbour, who refuses to believe what you say, spilled gasoline on himself and caught fire, what would be the first thing you would do? You'd put out the fire and call an ambulance! Morals come from humans - not from god or other 'spirits'.

It seems Jesus would not help your neighbour in this example. In one of his banal parables, the poor man gets to look down and enjoy watching the rich man burn and thirst in fire. That's an immoral preachment. It's no wonder there's so much hypocrisy in religion, as you can see here with the contradiction "love thy neighbour, but I will enjoy casting my neighbour into eternal fire." Or "love your enemies, but I will punish my enemies by throwing them into a lake of sulphur". Hypocritical and cruel.

The Jesus character said that he did not come to bring peace, but to bring a sword. That's immoral.

The Jesus character ordered a fig tree to uproot and throw itself into the ocean. What the fuck? Utter garbage written by Bronze-age tribesman and goat herders.

Pay attention to the fact that not only is there ZERO evidence for the supernatural claims of the bible, but so many of the stories are violent, barbaric and immoral. Let's take another randomly chosen example. Remember Esther the Queen? A nice story, yes? No way. She was chosen as queen in some weird, degrading-to-women sex contest, then proceeds as queen to commit horrific mass murders. There is nothing good about that story.

Make use of the Skeptics annotated bible to more quickly identify the silliness, childishness and horror within the book that the religious so ignorantly and arrogantly call "The Good Book".

[Xeno]

@oberg, I am happy to discuss with you "the overall civilising effect of christianity over the ages".

I will take the contrary position.

[DanDare]

Yeah, I never use atheist as a label. Its a description of something we have in common. Simply "human" includes deeply religious etc. so it doesn't quite serve.

The connotation added to the term atheist of late arises from many of us calling foul on religious bias in governance and the protection of religious thought from criticism. That's a political thing.

[Keith_W]

What an interesting story. When I left Christianity, I left the religion first. I was pretty sure that it wasn't true. I believed in God for a few more years after that, simply because I couldn't find any reason not to. I then made the intellectual leap that it is the lack of evidence for God that was the clincher. I didn't have to go around looking for evidence that he/she/it is there. The rest is history.

I know quite a few former Christians. I think that for most of us, the religion went away first, followed by the belief in God.

[prudie]

Hi Oberg,
You sound a little confused, but you are not alone. Hopefully interacting with others will help you to clarify exactly what you do and don't believe.

[Iseeyouthere]

Hey Oberg.

Feel free to pop over to the "Ask an Atheist" part of the forums with any questions you may have.

[lalajoy01]

Hey oberg and welcome. I'm only new here myself although I denounced my christian faith about 8 years ago.

I'm so glad you are asking serious questions about god. I asked very similar questions - the answers I came to were confronting and I had to make a choice - either faith or truth. If you are interested, I could share my thoughts on who and what christian idea of god is - it's my pet subject All the best. Lala

[lulu]

Hi there Oberg.

I married a Lutheran man - my upbringing was Salvation Army and Uniting Church. I too went along to a lutheran church for a good few years after my belief/faith had evaporated.
I loved the people at the church, still do. I loved singing and I liked my kids having contact with a community of people of all ages.
I hated having to switch off during sermons and having to bite my tongue. If anyone ever asked where I was at I was honest and open. People hardly ever asked, and if they did, didn't ever ask again. I didn't take communion or ever pretend to believe something I didn't.
When we left that town I was very glad to seize the opportunity to no longer attend church. Now I am at the point that I would only go for a wedding/funeral.

Good luck and keep reading. Godless is a great recommendation, it had a big impact on me. Letter to a Christian Nation by Sam Harris was good too, along with books by Hitchens and Dawkins. It helped me crystallise that cognitive dissonance that you mention.

[oberg]

Thank you all for your kind comments of support. There is a lot to digest and I think that ultimately I am an atheist. I simply cannot believe that there is a god or gods and one of the most compelling arguments I have seen is Richard Dawkins basically saying something that has created our complex universe must themselves be even more complex, so where did they come from. The theist argument that they always existed, begs the questions as to, well, if that being can exist in eternity, then why can't universe/multiverse exist in eternity too...

There simply is no logical need for a god and I am also reminded of the brilliant Douglas Adams' comment early the Hitch Hikers Guide where god basically talks himself out of existence.

I will take up the advice of the book Godless, and I would also be interested in a few point discussions with Xeno re actual and/or perceived past benefits that christianity has had on society. Whether there is any future relevence to christianity if ultimately the question I want to answer for myself. Being built on a false premise, doesn't bode well though.

[oberg]

Originally Posted by Xeno

@oberg, I am happy to discuss with you "the overall civilising effect of christianity over the ages".

I will take the contrary position.

Sure thing. Regardless of the future relevance of christianity I do think that it has had a real and measureable positive effect in holding together western civilisation. I suppose there are numerous semantic arguments that can be made to claim that western civ is no better (relativist anthropolgy and other theories that claim all is the same etc ... I don't tend to buy that), that other civs.

Perhaps framing a discussion around my initial comment, which I currently support, - "the overall civilising effect of christianity over the ages" - in the context of Western Civilisation and perhaps a little comparative religeon and comparisons of civs as well.