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Old 3rd March 2012, 02:24 PM
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Sieveboy Sieveboy is offline
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DezinerAU said

Funny that its probably the same people who were up in arms about free speech when contemplating the media enquiry or defending Andrew Bolt when he (allegedly? not sure of the legality of it even though he was found guilty) slandered aboriginal people.
He did slander those academics by failing to be factually accurate with his comments.
I do not fear death, in view of the fact that I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.
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Old 4th March 2012, 12:58 PM
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Default Re: Abortion

Philosophically, of course, weighing abortions against a human life at all stages of development through to old age is a tricky thing.

Each trimester of pregnancy represents differing levels of complexity and viability. A new born has begun the process of extensively assimilating complex sensory signals and motor controls. A toddler is at work forming speech abilities and identifying pain and pleasure and what to do about it. A young child is developing theory of mind and social skills. Then there's puberty and sexual maturity. Adulthood involves developing skills of social responsibility and parenting. Eventually we get to the other end where faculties may be failing and mentality may be fading out as well.

The question about the morality of ending a life (abortion, death sentence, euthanasia) is different at every stage and the consideration of harms and consequences must extend beyond the life in question to impacts on those connected to it both directly and indirectly.

Its quite proper for philosophers to ask questions about where we draw moral lines and to focus attention on bigger pictures.
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government".
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Burden of proof is the obligation on somebody presenting a claim to provide evidence to support its truth (a warrant). Once evidence has been presented, it is up to any opposing "side" to show the evidence presented is not adequate. If claims were accepted without warrants, then every claim could simultaneously be claimed to be true.

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Old 4th March 2012, 01:12 PM
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Default Re: Abortion

DanDare said View Post
<snip> Its quite proper for philosophers to ask questions about where we draw moral lines and to focus attention on bigger pictures.
Absolutely it is. But teh stoopid can't seem to get their tiny brains around the difference between a discussion in order to advance the thinking on something and a recommendation to put said topic into practice
I've never been very good at knowing "my place". Well actually I have, it's just never been where you want it to be.
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Old 4th March 2012, 09:05 PM
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Default Re: Abortion

Going back to OP...100% woman's choice. Wheter or not it is moral, logical or right will 100% depend on context.
....Coveting my neighbours ass since May 2007....
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Old 4th March 2012, 10:09 PM
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Default Re: Abortion

Here's another counter-protest idea, with more dates and info on the 40 days mob:

My Personal favourite counter protest I have heard, is to walk up to the 40-days group count the number of people. Then say loud enough so they can all hear “ok so there are X number of you here, I am going and donating X number of dollars” Heck make it 10times the number their if it is a one off, or tell them you will be back for the next 40 days to do the same thing.
Interesting you say that Secme, as Preterm has/had a program where clients could 'give back' to the protestors, by specifically choosing a regular nut to 'sponsor'. The clinic could then proudly confront them with the amount of money raised for the clinic in their name. Got right up their noses apparently. As for counter-protestors offering chocolate and a hug or smile, I for one would have appreciated it to counterbalance the slimeball with the bible and poster placard. I gave him a small piece of my pissed off mind, but of course thought of the best retorts only with hindsight.

I have often thought Obama was less religious than he appears on the surface. Given there is a quote or poll stating the USA would be more likely to elect an openly gay president than an atheist, I suspect he figured being 'of colour' was enough of a handicap? I wonder where he would put himself on Dawkins' scale?
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Old 8th March 2012, 09:44 PM
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Default Re: Abortion

Elbert said View Post
It’s a bit depressing to see that no one has considered the child. Surely every child has the right to:
1. parents who want them, will love them and care for them.
2. two parents in case of accident; [a full set of grandparents who love the kids is also desirable].
3. parents with enough resources to provide the necessities.
4. parents old enough to deal reasonable maturely with bringing up children.

If any of these criteria are absent, then there should be a termination. Parents who have children and don’t care for or about them are criminals. I think it is callous indeed to say that if a pregnancy results from an accident then tough luck – have the child. What? Are we no longer permitted to make mistakes? What about children brought up with no sex education? With no knowledge of contraception? Too bad, kid! You’ve just ruined your life and that of your ankle-biter – you're stuck with it! That’s a religious outlook – irrational and cruel.
The world is overflowing with children. Millions starving to death, dying of preventable disease all be cause contraception and safe abortions are either illegal or unavailable. Instead of making abortion difficult, we should be making it difficult to become a parent. You can't drive a car without a permit, but you can have an unwanted child. Makes no sense.
Interesting. This did not go where I thought it would go when it started with "think of the children!".

I actually think I agree with you.
I am not very intelligent to put it nicely.
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Old 10th March 2012, 11:29 AM
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Default Re: Abortion

two words which will help define potential cut off times...........nervous system
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Old 16th April 2012, 10:50 PM
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Smile Re: Abortion

jjcrazi said View Post
two words which will help define potential cut off times...........nervous system
How does that define life? and when does that occur?
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Old 16th April 2012, 10:53 PM
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Default Re: Abortion

JesusisLord said View Post
How does that define life? and when does that occur?
Nervous system would help with deciding on the pain that is potentially felt and anyone can look in a biology text book for the definition of life.
'Those who invalidate reason ought seriously to consider whether they argue against reason with or without reason: if with reason, then they establish the principle that they are labouring to dethrone: but if they argue without reason (which, in order to be consistent with themselves they must do), they are out of reach of rational conviction, nor do they deserve rational argument'-Ethan Allen
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Old 16th April 2012, 11:05 PM
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Default Re: Abortion

JesusisLord said View Post
How does that define life? and when does that occur?
IVPITER said View Post
Nervous system would help with deciding on the pain that is potentially felt and anyone can look in a biology text book for the definition of life.
Fetal viability (24-26 weeks) is also an issue.

Interestingly, 24 weeks has been set as the cut-off for on-demand access to abortion in Victoria.
Better health channel said
In 2008, The Abortion Law Reform Act decriminalised termination of pregnancy and set out guidelines for when abortion can take place. Any woman of any age can attend an abortion clinic in Victoria and access abortion until she is 24 weeks pregnant. Abortion after 24 weeks is legal, but isn’t commonly performed. Two doctors must agree the termination is appropriate, considering the woman’s relevant medical circumstances and her current and future physical, psychological and social circumstances.
JiL, I strongly encourage you to peruse the recent history of this thread, if you have not already done so. Much valuable discussion has been had, and it would be nice to avoid going over old ground.
*Gods* are not only a legal fiction, but a fiction in every way. Just ask the nearest hippie...
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