CHRISTOPHER HITCHENS 1949-2011

[Praxis]

Great post Dancer. Good on you for standing up to Mum.

Doin' it for the Hitch.

I love it

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Originally Posted by Dancer

Finally, I grew a spine and it's a tribute to Mr Hitchens.

Here's the story.

I had my mother over last night (Catholic) and we began discussing marriage equality . We have a family member who has been in a same sex relationship for 14 years, they have a 2yr old daughter and another on the way.

Mum (who I have to say that despite our major differences, I still love), was explaining that there has been a falling out between father "Mr X" and his daughter "Ms Y" (Ms Y being in the gay relationship) and that it is Ms Y's fault because she has to just accept that people have their beliefs. Apparently Mr X (in my mum's eyes) is so wonderful because despite his (and most of the family's) disagreeing with Ms Y's 'lifestyle choice,' he puts that aside and loves them equally and supports them equally and so she should be grateful for that

I have been fairly reserved in my viewpoints for a while, only bringing it up when the time warrants.

Now, the reason I'm posting all this on here is because I recall reading Dennett's comments about Hitchens and saying that one thing he learned from him was that there's a time to be diplomatic and there's a time to shut them the fuck up (or something to that effect). As we know, Hitchens didn't let things slide...

Now as I said, I love mum and I know this is no major feat for the community at large, but I had a moment of personal empowerment and liberation as a result of standing up to a person that I have for too many years, allow to dribble shit quite frankly. Whilst I haven't hidden the fact I'm atheist within my family, I haven't exactly spoken up either - perhaps out of fear or confrontation, I'm not sure.

At this point, I thought of Hitch and thought to myself - grow a spine Mel and stand up for reason and equality. So I absolutely smashed my mothers rationale. It clearly wasn't fucking hard to pin point every flawed arguement she presented. Furthermore I pointed out in a very clear way how mean, condescending and rightous her beliefs and faith is. I, for the first time, caned her precious Catholism and God without a shred of guilt or restraint.

One of the points I wanted to bring home to her is that this filth in her head is holding her back from being a much more loving and kind human being. She kept saying that she only wants Ms Y to be happy and acknowledged that people are of equal value regardless of sexual orientation. But when I pressed her and asked if she would therefore sign a petition that supports an amendment to the Marraige Act to allow for gay people to get Married should they wish too, she said no because it goes against what she was bought up to believe . She kept accusing me of trying to change her beliefs, but I all I was doing was pointing out very clearly her own contradictive views and how they hurt people and impose unfair and cruel inequalities.

I also told her that her imaginary God is fucking mean and it's one of the reasons that I'm atheist. Whilst she says she recognises that we should all have equal rights - her religion holds her back from actively supporting it.

She further explained that I can't change the world and most of the world is religious - as if that makes it right and me wrong. So then I very proudly explained that I can't change the world but I can contribute to making a postive difference and I will actively pursue that in my career, parenthood and general interactions based on logic, reason and the understanding that I am no more important than the next person. I also explained that I don't feel the need to be a part of a majority, that means fuck all to me. I also explained that I especially wouldn't remain in a majority that was so fucking cruel and dumb.

The conversation was long, emotional, tiresome and frustrating but I'm glad I had it out. There were many points made and I was not once apologetic in my comments, which I'm glad about. I didn't even agree to disagree. I just point black said that inequality is inequality and religious impositions that promote inequality are ugly and it's just plain wrong.

Never have I been more proud to be atheist because I was in such an easy position to demonstrate how I try to be kind and nice to people - because it's just a nice thing to do and no superstitious or imaginary being will hold me back from pursuing equality. It was incredibly liberating.

I have to note also that the comments Praxis made in the "Why are you going to the GAC?" thread has also hit home to me. I am so grateful that I get to be 'me' and have a voice because of the fortunate circumstance that I was born into a part of the world that allows me to do so.

I found myself in this discussion revelling in the notion that I can do this, and I should because it's the right thing to do. That's how I feel and I am passionate about equal rights. I told mum that she should feel very fortunate (if not ashamed and embarrased) that her phobic views and religious beliefs are in a majority and she should feel grateful that she's not in a position of having anyone else's 'opinions' or 'beliefs' imposed on her in such a way that it restricts her from making independant choices and living the life she chooses.

Anyway, I just wanted to share this as a postive tribute to Hitchen's. His courage above all, to speak up, has inspired me. For me, speaking up against my family has always been the hardest obstacle and now I feel like I've achieved something and I can share my viewpoints a lot more freely now.

My family know that I'm a loving, generous and kind natured person so it's very difficult for them to be angry with my viewpoints (if not impossible)- I think if anything it has confused her because I have very easily and clearly demonstrated to her that we don't need that religious dribble (shouldn't need it) to be good people. I told her that my life is far more fulfilling and I have engaged on a much more meaningful level with heaps of people since deliberately turning my back on religion. I say deliberately, because whilst I was not religious for many years, I didn't really define or examine it until recent years.

I say jolly well done old chap. Bravo. It takes a lot of bravery to stand up to religious nutters and the more independent one gets then (I find) the easier this is. In addition, yes, it helps if your country doesn't threaten you with death and/or imprisonment for apostasy.

Now I am curious... did she ever give you that "escape clause" of "It's my personal beliefs" or "You can believe whatever you want" when you ended up arguing about this?

Originally Posted by Dancer

So, a big thanks to Hitch for the inspiration and thanks Praxis for reminding me why it's so important to be appreciative of my fortunate circumstances. I can and will continue to be courageous in my interactions against 'wibble.'

That, and I'd like to thank Praxis for straightening me up when I have made stupid remarks on this forum; and for helping me overcome my "fear"* of the semicolon. I must admit though, I regret not joining the forums earlier for some reason. I may be a slow thinker but I suspect I am accelerating. Probably would have learnt a lot more then.

Not sure about the rest of you lot but I found being an atheist has helped me to be a better learner. I can learn the right stuff. (proof that one doesn't need lots of books by atheist authors to learn how to think; proof that atheism is simple)

*well "fear" is the best word I can think of for now anyway.

[Dancer]

Absolutely! That was her crutch comment and she couldn't understand why it wasn't working

I just said, "That is your belief and it's mean. It should not be imposed on others. Furthermore, I will hold you accountable for your beliefs. I can't change them, but if you're so righteous in your views and beliefs then you won't mind me holding you accountable."

It was at this point that the accusation I was trying to change her belief was assumed. Again I reiterated, that I was just holding her accountable and if she truely feels that she's doing the right thing, then that shouldn't be an issue for her.

My next battle is going to be explaining that science is not a belief system

Edit: And thanks for all the positive support and feedback people

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Ask her what a belief system is, and how it is relevant to science. Then ask her if she believes in science. If not, ask her why the hell she is using a computer/mobile phone/telephone/light globe/refrigerator/cooktop/etc as she doesn't believe in science.

[exacademic]

I wasn't a member here when this happened, so you'll excuse a late posting. I think I'd like to emphasise the fact that Hitch was a lot more than just a prominent atheist. I believe that now I've read all his books, and I enjoyed every page of them. Even when I'd disagree with him, which was not often. But his points were always well argued, even if I can't ultimately share them (eg. the Iraq war). Not only that, his writings directed me to ideas and thinkers very much worthy of my attention, that otherwise I would've probably missed out on. I can't say how much I will be missing his presence in this world, but as the next best thing, I sure plan to re-read his books, again and again. His departure reminds me of my other hero (who also just happens to be an atheist icon), Frank Zappa. Absolute brilliance in almost every way imaginable, stricken by f**king cancer and gone well before their time.

[rayne]

I often wonder what Hitch would think about the level of inspiration and motivation he was responsible for within an entire community of people. I think he'd be humbled yet flattered and pissed if it looked like we were worshiping him (I joke).

Jokes aside, the man was one of the biggest influences in my life, his actions when faced with a terminal illness marks him as the greatest disapprover of the phrase "There are no atheists in foxholes". Even on his deathbed, he still fought stupidity, injustice and inequality, while being pissed off he was too sick to get up and debate.