Why Christians Don't have to prove that God exists, how to deal with it?

[PkG]

Atheists normally say that Christians have to prove that God exists in order to believe in him, but Christians do have a quite reasonable argument: "If God could 100% be proven to be true, there would be no faith, which is essential for religion"
This argument has always bothered me, so I was wondering what a more experienced person's approach to debunk this logic would be.

[Aldaron]

Carl Sagan said it best:

"Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence".

There is a qualitative difference between believing I have brown eyes and believing an all-powerful being controls the universe.

One is potentially of extreme importance...the other is inconsequential.

There is also the issue of which claim. Sure, I might believe Pastor Billy-Bob's sermon that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life, but what if Imam Rashid is actually correct and I've pissed off Allah?

Or Odin?

[davo]

"reasonable argument" .. for what?

For holding a belief despite evidence?

That's not a 'defence' or response to the burden of proof, the requirement for proof still lies with the person making the claim.

Until they show evidence for their claim they may as well be talking about pink fluffy unicorns dancing on rainbows.

[simonecuttlefish]

Originally Posted by PkG

Atheists normally say that Christians have to prove that God exists in order to believe in him, but Christians do have a quite reasonable argument: "If God could 100% be proven to be true, there would be no faith, which is essential for religion"
This argument has always bothered me, so I was wondering what a more experienced person's approach to debunk this logic would be.

Interesting that the children of Israel needed no faith though isn't it? I mean, seas parting, magical food raining from heaven, lightening striking people down in a God vs God showdown, an Ark shooting frikin' lasers out of it cutting down enemy armies, or a string of plagues such as frogs, or the entirety of a cultures first born children killed BY GOD in one night. Or with Jesus on the scene, apparently seeing zombies walking all through town, and the dead being raised and thousands of people being fed with a few fish an pieces of bread and and and and and..... Notice, that as historical record keeping got better and better, the "age of miracles" just vanished?

Their argument is an apology for wilful unquestioning stupidity and non thinking. Don't get drawn into this trap. Demand a clarification. Ask them, "Please clarify this so I can answer you.

1) Why does the supreme ruler of the universe pretend not to be there, and why does he demand faith when he obviously never needed it before?

2) How can I have "faith" in a charlatan and trickster, that sent himself to earth, by getting his own mother pregnant, and then call it a sacrifice when he knew he would rise to an eternal paradise. Where is the 'sacrifice' in faking your own death? If he wanted to sacrifice something, he would be a pile of mouldy old bones in a crypt, not supreme prince of the universe.

3) How do I find "faith" in the benevolence a god that came to earth as a human, to fake it's own death, and demand that everyone ever born afterwards must accept the suffering, humiliation, torture and death of itself as a human, and thank it and worship it for arranging that to happen (as it knows the future so it knew the outcome)?

4) How can I possibly allow Jesus to bear the responsibility for my transgressions against another person, when true magnificence and nobility demands that I bear the responsibility for my actions, and I WILL NOT allow a revolting human sacrifice to take away my responsibility for the damage I may have caused a to fellow human. How do I have "faith" in a god that says, thank me for an horrific torture and murder and your guilt is wiped clean.

5) How do I have "faith" in a monster that threatens me with eternal damnation, for the crime of demanding to take responsibility for my own actions?

Think about these questions, and only ask them if you sincerely agree with them, so you can ask out of all good "faith".

How do I find redemption and peace in the torture and suffering of someone else? Personally, I find it REPELLENT and a total abandonment of responsibility. It's not "faith" you need, it's the acceptance of the REVOLTING you need to justify.

[Loki]

Theists (including xians) don't have to prove anything. However if they can't provide at least some evidence for their fantasy then others will understandably point and laugh.

Until able to provide evidence of some sort they should be happy for their hypothesis to not be taught in our schools or for religions businesses to be unable to recieve tax exemptions for spreading said hypothesis.

As they have provided no evidence whatsoever to support their hypothesis they should also accept that there is no place for their unsupported wibble in politics or government and that it does not deserve a voice in public debate on any subject.

No, xians don't have to prove anything, and we don't have to accept them claiming undeserved priveledge in our community.

[simonecuttlefish]

Originally Posted by Loki

Until able to provide evidence of some sort they should be happy for their hypothesis to not be taught in our schools or for religions businesses to be unable to recieve tax exemptions for spreading said hypothesis.

I wanted to set up a religion, and we (actually a friend did for us first) looked into it and be prepared for astonishment ......

If you want to get tax free status as a religious entity, you "must" have an unprovable and supernatural entity at it's core. It's in the law

From
http://www.ato.gov.au/nonprofit/cont...69.htm&page=10 (My highlighting)

The term ‘religion’ is not confined to major religions such as Christianity, Islam, Judaism, but also extends to Buddhism, Taoism, Jehovah’s Witness, the Free Daist Communion of Australia and Scientology. The categories of religion are not closed. Nonetheless, to be a religion there must be:

* belief in a supernatural being, thing or principle, and
* acceptance of canons of conduct that give effect to that belief, but that do not offend against the ordinary laws.

That's right, you don't have to pay tax if you STATE it's UNPROVABLE.

If you say it's aliens that "might" exist, you lose your tax exempt status, like the Raelians

http://www.news.com.au/opinion/hubba...-1111113868167

In other words, any organised group that believes in something supernatural is a religion.

In contrast, if you believe in creatures thought to live on another planet, as do the Raelians, you're in strife.

In 1998, the Raelians lost their bid for tax-free status because they believed in creatures assumed to be real rather than from another dimension.

[clementine]

Originally Posted by simonecuttlefish

How can I have "faith" in a charlatan and trickster, that sent himself to earth, by getting his own mother pregnant, and then call it a sacrifice when he knew he would rise to an eternal paradise.

eughhh that's what pisses me off most about the whole 'jesus sacrificed himself so we could be saved(!!!)' bosh

[angslan]

I have to agree that the argument about faith being a requirement makes no sense. You could ask, "Why is faith a requirement?" and the answer would be "God made it so for <xxx> reason." And then you'd have to ask, "Why is <xxx> reason important?" And, of course, there is never a reason except "God said so" (because God is omnipotent and created everything), so, in essence, faith is arbitrary and God is a dictator.
This will never convince a Christian, I assume, but it may assuage your thoughts.

[Senexis]

I think the question is, "Why is faith a requirement NOW?"

Because it certainly wasn't a requirement for any of the characters in the book, who were either spoken to directly, or via clearly magical objects such as burning bushes or talking donkeys, and/or had magical powers of their own bestowed upon them.

Is it just a coincidence that, as people have become more knowledgeable and documentation and communication more rigorous and accurate, that the "miracles" got smaller and more mundane?

Miracles these days consist of people getting better from illnesses, or having lucky escapes from dangerous situations, or really bad weather. Y'know, stuff that just happens.

No-one re-grows an amputated limb, no seas part, no bushes burn and speak... the people in the book didn't NEED faith, they had the whole magic show going on. Why don't we get it?

[Loki]