Jesus was a religious reformer

Strato · #1 23rd July 2012, 02:27 PM

All that he is reported to have said and done, grew in the telling, exploiting superstition. Add the huge Pauline spin. That just tells a great deal about the control-freak self image and mid-life crisis, Damascus road epilepsy pathology and Hellenized, Platonized intellect concerning "Pharisee of the Pharisees" (studied under Gamiliel!), Saul of Tarsus. Paul was the greatest spin doctor in history.

But it's safe to say Jesus reinforced the fundamental assumptions of monocultural late Bronze Age Middle Eastern monotheism from Zoroaster to Judaism: spirituality is real, we have a soul, God, Satan and angels exist, the Law of Moses stands, sin is certainly real, like karma, etc.

But I accept he was out to expose and denounce the powerful Pharisees' and Sadducees' exploitation and tyrrany over the common people. I hate fascists too, myself. And for, and with, Jesus, God was on your side.

But as an original, courageous thinker, Jesus can't hold a candle to Socrates, or Strato, that other Greek, either.

DanDare · #2 23rd July 2012, 05:45 PM

Any evidence for this or just "IMHO" without such? Do you think there even was this purported Jesus dude?

Loki · #3 23rd July 2012, 05:56 PM

How does one report what someone supposedly said 50 years previously when they weren't there and there is no record?

Paul never met any supposed Jesus or anyone who had. The "Pauline spin" you refer to is more like "Pauline fantasy".

Why do you have such a hard on for Strato? Why do you completely ignore other Greeks who have had vastly more influence on the world, like say Thales or Democritus?

Strato · #4 23rd July 2012, 09:41 PM

Absolutely. Democritus the atomist, naturalistic philosopher (460-370BCE.). Burn candles to the guy. Thales of Miletus, around 585BCE. Seminal naturalistic thinker. Both predate Strato, though he articulated his atheism. Anyway, maybe for a similar reason Dan Hicks gives me a hard on.

Paul knew Peter and others of the original followers. The gospels got doctored over time, not so sure about the Pauline epistles though.

Loki · #5 23rd July 2012, 09:55 PM

I'd need to see some evidence to support your contention that Paul knew Peter, or any of the original disciples, or that any of them wrote the gospels which bear their names.

I am not aware of any but am also not a biblical scholar.

Seamus · #6 24th July 2012, 07:57 AM

Quote:

But as an original, courageous thinker, Jesus can't hold a candle to Socrates, or Strato, that other Greek, either.

Jesus (if he existed) was a devout Jew who founded a small Orthodox Jewish sect. His teachings contain no new ideas on any level.

The religion which is now called Christianity has little if anything thing to do with some poor little first century Rabbi who was crucified by the Romans

Quote:

Matthew 5:17-19

King James Version (KJV)

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

yrtemmyscirtemmysa · #7 13th January 2013, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loki

I'd need to see some evidence to support your contention that Paul knew Peter, or any of the original disciples, or that any of them wrote the gospels which bear their names.

I am not aware of any but am also not a biblical scholar.

Paul knew Jesus actual brother James, according to Ehrman.

irishjazz · #8 9th January 2013, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loki

How does one report what someone supposedly said 50 years previously when they weren't there and there is no record?

There were a multitude of records, some recorded within the lifetime of potential witnesses. A few- mostly those that agreed with each other- were included in the New Testament.

You can argue their veracity and credibility, but not their existence.

Quote:

Paul never met any supposed Jesus or anyone who had.

In his letter Paul feuded with Peter- Jesus' leading disciple- and with James, called the brother of Jesus. You are correct that Paul never met Jesus, but the rest is, according to the letters that survive, not true.

Bart Ehrman's book "Did Jesus Exist" is a pretty convincing argument for "yes." Did Christ exist is an entirely different question.

The Historical Jesus- as far as can be reconstructed- was opposed to Temple Judaism. He was not so much a reformer (he didn't want the moneylenders simply moved off temple grounds) he was a revolutionary. He thought the revolution would be accomplished by the arrival of the Kingdom of God. It is fair to say that that never happened.

Note: The Temple Judaism that Jesus opposed was a short-lived movement. The Temple on what is now the Dome of the Rock was built by Herod the Great. Herod was a non-Jewish Roman client who was trying to buy his way into the good graces of his subjects and establish the primacy of Jerusalem as a political/religious center. The whole thing fell apart in the Jewish rebellion of 70 AD. Most of the Christian texts were written after the destruction of the Temple, making their predictions of the event placed in the mouths of a prophet a generation before, at the very least, suspect.

yrtemmyscirtemmysa · #9 13th January 2013, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irishjazz

There were a multitude of records, some recorded within the lifetime of potential witnesses. A few- mostly those that agreed with each other- were included in the New Testament.

You can argue their veracity and credibility, but not their existence.

In his letter Paul feuded with Peter- Jesus' leading disciple- and with James, called the brother of Jesus. You are correct that Paul never met Jesus, but the rest is, according to the letters that survive, not true.

Bart Ehrman's book "Did Jesus Exist" is a pretty convincing argument for "yes." Did Christ exist is an entirely different question.

The Historical Jesus- as far as can be reconstructed- was opposed to Temple Judaism. He was not so much a reformer (he didn't want the moneylenders simply moved off temple grounds) he was a revolutionary. He thought the revolution would be accomplished by the arrival of the Kingdom of God. It is fair to say that that never happened.

Note: The Temple Judaism that Jesus opposed was a short-lived movement. The Temple on what is now the Dome of the Rock was built by Herod the Great. Herod was a non-Jewish Roman client who was trying to buy his way into the good graces of his subjects and establish the primacy of Jerusalem as a political/religious center. The whole thing fell apart in the Jewish rebellion of 70 AD. Most of the Christian texts were written after the destruction of the Temple, making their predictions of the event placed in the mouths of a prophet a generation before, at the very least, suspect.

Jesus did exist, Christ didn't.