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  #1  
Old 14th April 2012, 09:25 PM
agath agath is offline
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Default Cardinal Pell's Bombshell on Q&A

I'm surprised no one seems to realise the significance of Pell's public admission that Adam & Eve (and other events) are a fiction.
This means the New Testament of the Catholic Church is a fairy story; and the supposed credibility of the Catholic Church is destroyed.
This is why it is unbelievably significant ...........

If Pell is flagging Church action in moving towards denial of the Old Testament's Adam & Eve and their transgression in the Garden Of Eden, which led to the imposition of Original Sin on them; and upon all mankind throughout history and into the future, irrespective of race, religion, geography and time - it is a catastrophic step for the Catholic Church.

This is the biggest 'own goal' that will ever be kicked in theological history.

The whole basis of Christianity - The New Testament - is that Jesus Christ came down on earth, as The Savior, to die to save mankind from its sins.
The main sin (not coveting someones ass, or not going to Mass, or worshipping false gods etc) is Original Sin.
That's the reason why the Church has Baptism (to expunge original sin).

But if the Church is now saying that Adam & Eve, The Garden Of Eden, The Tree of Knowledge, the eating of the Apple and Original Sin are all allegories, parables or metaphors - that is, events that never took place -
then the supposed actual
appearance of Jesus Christ on earth to die to save us all from a sin that never occured, commited by people who never existed is a lie that has been peddled for 2000 years.
It is without argument, ipso facto, a fiction.


The real effect of what Pell has said has made the Church guilty of a theological, philosophical and logical absurdity.

What will now be regarded as fact by all - since Cardinal Pell, to the public, is the major face of Catholicism in Australia and therefore enunciating Church policy - is that the New Testament, treated all this time as absolute incontrovertible fact for two thousand years, and the whole basis of Christianity - is a fantastical fabrication; and that the Catholic Church is a deception.

This is the most cataclysmic religious revelation in two thousand years.
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Old 14th April 2012, 09:28 PM
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Default Re: Cardinal Pell's Bombshell on Q&A

Hi, Agath.

This is a message sent to all who find their way to these forums.

We like people, and we like facts too!

We're friendly but we're skeptical, and if somebody calls for proof, it's not an accusation. Only the strong ideas thrive here: we try to respect people. (We do not tolerate personal abuse.)

You may already have visited these other handy places:
* New Member Information
* Welcome from AFA president
* For those interested in learning, I recommend the Atheism Resource Thread maintained by Fearless.
* And a quick look at our reserved spot for belief-based discussion, Fantasy Island, includes The Great Big List, a sort-of "things we've seen before" for those of faith, and general rules of argument for the forum.

If you've got questions, please ask. Moderators have red name tags, but many of our friendly people may have the answers you need.

Enjoy the forums. We hope to see plenty from you in discussions.

Have fun.
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Old 14th April 2012, 09:31 PM
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Welcome to the forums

I agree there needs to be more noise on this, but he is copping flack from both sides for this now and has been trying to back peddle a bit since. I anticipate more 'please explain' time ahead.

Some speculate it might have risked his position. He isn't very popular within his own home team.

There is another thread discussing some of this (look for Dawkins vs Pell)

Enjoy your stay!
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Old 14th April 2012, 09:37 PM
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Default Re: Cardinal Pell's Bombshell on Q&A

Quote:
Originally Posted by agath View Post
This is the most cataclysmic religious revelation in two thousand years.
Hey agath,

Welcome to the AFA forums!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fearless View Post
There is another thread discussing some of this (look for Dawkins vs Pell)
I was intending to link but I think it would be more fun searching...

Either way; have fun, learn much and discuss in an honourable way ;ŹD

4lan
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Old 14th April 2012, 09:48 PM
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Hi agath, welcome to the forum, hope you enjoy the community.

Pell's admission would be extremely significant... if they didn't keep shifting the darn goalposts when things get a bit difficult for 'em.
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Old 14th April 2012, 11:32 PM
agath agath is offline
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Default Re: Cardinal Pell's Bombshell on Q&A

Thanks for all the welcomes as a new member!

Re: my post about Pell, I'm surprised that the enormity of what he said on Q&A isn't being understood.

As an ex-Catholic, I'm telling you that the Church's reason for existence has been destroyed. The Catholic Catechism categorically states that Adam & Eve and all the Garden of Eden events are incontrovertibly true.
The Vatican has always known that if it doesn't aggresively maintain creationism and Original Sin as absolute fact, then the New Testament and Jesus Christ's coming to earth to save mankind from Original Sin is a fantasy story - and it's over for the Church.
Cardinal Pell has unwittingly let slip the truth - and they will make him pay for it.
The bible stories are parables, metaphors and allegories.
Adam & Eve and Original Sin are simply fictional stories. Pell has told the truth, but in telling it he has, like when a main card is pulled from a house of cards, destroyed the foundation of the Catholic Church - the New Testament.
The New Testament and Christianity is about Jesus Christ, The Savior - why he came to earth, his death and resurrection. But the crucial question is now frighteningly apparent.
Why would a God come to earth to die to save mankind from a sin that doesn't exist?
As I said before - a theological, philosophical and logical absurdity.What is now revealed is what the Vatican has feared for centuries.

This is the biggest inadvertent religious expose in history.
In sporting terms, it's game over.

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Old 15th April 2012, 12:07 AM
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Default Re: Cardinal Pell's Bombshell on Q&A

Quote:
Originally Posted by agath View Post
<snip>
Dude, some feedback for you;

I thought your first post was a 'one off' type 'rant' but..

(long version) - I find that your posts are rather tough to comprehend; the font is much larger than it needs to be, there doesn't appear to be defined structure and the gramma isn't conducive to reading (and I unlike some here I don't have physiological issues in this regard).

(short version) - Type things up with the idea of accessibility and coherence in mind please.

Also - your 'bold' segments suggest an ulterior motive for posting too.. <boggling>

Perhaps its late and I've tripped over the margin..

4lan
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Old 15th April 2012, 12:43 AM
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Default Re: Cardinal Pell's Bombshell on Q&A

Agath, I hate to break it to ya, but the Catholic Church hasn't maintained creationism for a long time. Pious XII said that it was cool to investigate the scientific principles of evolutionary theory, provided Catholic dogma wasn't violated*, while JP II in 1996 declared that evolution was part-and-parcel of human development and that it was "guided" by God.

Pell's comment wasn't a gaffe - it was pretty much in line with Church doctrine.

* Catholic dogma has never run with a literal interpretation of the scriptures. Even Aquinas did his share of "interpretation" of the text, and Dei Verbum explicitly states that the scriptures are 100% true, but must be understood in the context of "literary forms". In other words, while the Holy Spirit inspired the authors, they, as human beings, wrote the stuff down as they understood it.

In other words, Genesis is to be understood as the story of how God created the world and people and how Original Sin came into the world...but it doesn't require a literal two-people-in-a-garden-with-a-talking-snake concept - just that God created humans (via evolution), humans were self-aware, knew right from wrong and chose to sin, and still do. That's what the RCC considers Original Sin.

As far as Pell goes...nah, he didn't fuck up that bit. Nothing to see here...move along, move along...
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Old 15th April 2012, 07:07 AM
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Default Re: Cardinal Pell's Bombshell on Q&A

Hi Agath. Welcome to the forum.

I think you will find that as Aldaron said, the church supports evolution based on actions by god. Retreating to "god set it in motion" with each new successful scientific theory has been a standard ploy of the church for a thousand years or so. God of the gaps, a moveable chap.

On the specific issue of Adam and Eve, I think you will find that modern church theory is that god gave us libertarian free will to choose between good and evil so evil is all our fault; somehow. That is the new version of original sin.

Pell also said that atheists might go to heaven but that, too, is a notion with theological support in the catholic church. I could look up the name of relevant theologian if it were important. Remember that catholics have purgatory, where you go for a bit of non-eternal punishment and learn your lesson properly before being admitted to heaven.

I doubt that there is any outrage in the institution of the church itself. They are probably muttering that the public do not understand these complex matters, and why did the church ever stop giving the mass in Latin anyway.
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Old 15th April 2012, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agath View Post
Re: my post about Pell, I'm surprised that the enormity of what he said on Q&A isn't being understood.
Methinks that the above assumption that others don't understand, is merely that - an assumption.

It's possible to understand but disagree in a reasoned maner, no?
Quote:
Originally Posted by agath View Post
Cardinal Pell has unwittingly let slip the truth - and they will make him pay for it.
...
This is the biggest inadvertent religious expose in history.
In sporting terms, it's game over.
I predict that Pell's skills as a politician will stand him in *good* stead - unfortunately.
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Following the bible is like having a sadomasochistic relationship. With no option of a safe word....
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