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Thread: The Malcolm Turnbull thread

  1. #271
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    Default Re: The Malcolm Turnbull thread

    Quote DanDare said View Post
    Are these the same values as 10 years ago? 20? Do we have to update the test by usage every decade?

    Democratic process - people in Oz complain about it a lot. One Nation aren't big supporters of our processes, nor are the "sovereign citizens".
    I've never met a 'sovereign citizen,' but having briefly read about them unless they are self sufficient hippies they are just hypocrites and illogical. We moan about our democratic processes but the louder the moaner the further they seem to be to coming up with a viable alternative.

    obligatory education for under 16s - but there are groups who say "choice is all" and what about religious schools rather than secular ones?
    Religious schools in oz still have curriculum benchmarks that have to be reached, there is at least that. What groups exactly are saying 'choice is all' in Australia regarding education?
    medicare the libs keep trying to get rid of it
    That's an emotional statement that is not supported by a shred of evidence Dan. Ideologically, there are probably people on the conservative side that may entertain the prospect but it is, at this time, politically inexpedient - and long may that remain the case. This is jumping at shadows.
    welfare - the libs and libertarians keep trying to get rid of it
    austudy - and again blah blah

    If these were part of the Australian Values test then a big chunk of our current citizens should get chucked out now!
    These are what we have to support and fight for. Even if we lose. I'll stick by them as a bunch of things that can be clearly articulated as Australian values.

    I know they're under threat, that is all the more reason they ought to be restated.

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  3. #272
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    Default Re: The Malcolm Turnbull thread

    Talk of 'values' from these people is the rhetoric of populism.

    What are the values of those who get involved in the AFA forum?

    Surely one thing deemed important is being informed, which takes time, intellectual honesty.

    The forum Topics reflect a way of thinking which needs to become universal.

    Working on that.
    Wars begin in the minds of men.
    The UNESCO motto, in Enlightenment Now, the Case for Reason, Science, Humanism and Progress, Steven Pinker, 2018.

  4. #273
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    Default Re: The Malcolm Turnbull thread

    Quote pipbarber said View Post
    These are what we have to support and fight for. Even if we lose. I'll stick by them as a bunch of things that can be clearly articulated as Australian values.

    I know they're under threat, that is all the more reason they ought to be restated.
    But that's the whole point Pip, restated by who? The people who are saying right now that the values should be part of a citizenship test are the ones who I believe will pick a list that I don't agree with, and neither would you. They are ones who would be thrown out of citisenship if we made our values, that we hold in common, a necessary element to being a citizen.
    "History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government".
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    Burden of proof is the obligation on somebody presenting a claim to provide evidence to support its truth (a warrant). Once evidence has been presented, it is up to any opposing "side" to show the evidence presented is not adequate. If claims were accepted without warrants, then every claim could simultaneously be claimed to be true.

    History isn't written by the victors. It's written by the people with the time machines.

  5. #274
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    Default Re: The Malcolm Turnbull thread

    Just a follow up to the discussion regarding English language requirements for citizenship. It seems an IELTS 6.0 across all disciplines (not an average) will be required. This is too high in my opinion. I think a 4.5 or 5 averaged score would enable people from any language group or educational background to succeed, with a few lessons in some cases, but by no means would it be overly onerous.

    The fact is that the average Arabic speakers would need to invest in months and even years of lessons to achieve a 6.0 in writing. Same with Hindi speakers, who'd probably get to 6.0 in speaking quite quickly but not when it comes to writing. German speakers on the other hand....

    I have no problem with the principle of an English language test. It is a statement on the fact that without functional English, marginalisation from mainstream society is more likely it therefore adds incentive to improve language skills. However, by setting the bar this high it is quite apparent that the government is simply using the IELTS test as a national gate keeping device. It's just wrong headed.

    One more point i'd make about this. I'm quite certain that 40-50% of native speaking Australians would fail to get a 6.0 in all skills on an IELTS test! It's fucking difficult. The reading and listening sections are designed to trick the test taker, they also require trained levels of concentration under high pressure time restricted conditions. There's got to be something wrong about expecting people who want to become citizens to use English more proficiently than half the existing citizens do.

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  7. #275
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    Default Re: The Malcolm Turnbull thread

    Quote pipbarber said View Post
    Just a follow up to the discussion regarding English language requirements for citizenship. It seems an IELTS 6.0 across all disciplines (not an average) will be required. This is too high in my opinion. I think a 4.5 or 5 averaged score would enable people from any language group or educational background to succeed, with a few lessons in some cases, but by no means would it be overly onerous.

    The fact is that the average Arabic speakers would need to invest in months and even years of lessons to achieve a 6.0 in writing. Same with Hindi speakers, who'd probably get to 6.0 in speaking quite quickly but not when it comes to writing. German speakers on the other hand....

    I have no problem with the principle of an English language test. It is a statement on the fact that without functional English, marginalisation from mainstream society is more likely it therefore adds incentive to improve language skills. However, by setting the bar this high it is quite apparent that the government is simply using the IELTS test as a national gate keeping device. It's just wrong headed.

    One more point i'd make about this. I'm quite certain that 40-50% of native speaking Australians would fail to get a 6.0 in all skills on an IELTS test! It's fucking difficult. The reading and listening sections are designed to trick the test taker, they also require trained levels of concentration under high pressure time restricted conditions. There's got to be something wrong about expecting people who want to become citizens to use English more proficiently than half the existing citizens do.
    Yeah, no, look, I mean, you know, it's all good!
    "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; ..."

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    Beer, if drunk with moderation, softens the temper, cheers the spirit and promotes health."
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  9. #276
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    Default Re: The Malcolm Turnbull thread

    and, yeah.
    "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; ..."

    "
    Beer, if drunk with moderation, softens the temper, cheers the spirit and promotes health."
    Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)

    "Life is far too important a thing ever to talk seriously about it."

    Oscar Wilde (1854-1900)

  10. #277
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    Default Re: The Malcolm Turnbull thread

    yeah, nah, yous mean? Fuck.

  11. #278
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    Default Re: The Malcolm Turnbull thread

    I'd not heard of IELTS. I downloaded a sample about listening, and I'm not sure that I could answer all the questions after hearing the conversation once? It seemed more of a memory test, than a language comprehension test?
    "Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; ..."

    "
    Beer, if drunk with moderation, softens the temper, cheers the spirit and promotes health."
    Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)

    "Life is far too important a thing ever to talk seriously about it."

    Oscar Wilde (1854-1900)

  12. #279
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    Default Re: The Malcolm Turnbull thread

    To be honest, IELTS is an intelligence test. It's also a test of general knowledge, current affairs and your education level. Here's a sample question from part 2 writing task. You have 40 minutes or so (depending on how long part 1 took you) to write 250 words on this question. You need an opening paragraph, main body paragraph(s) and a concluding paragraph.

    Nowadays computer education is compulsory for young learners in most schools. Do you think this is necessary or will children acquire these skills naturally from their daily interaction with technology everywhere? Provide your opinion and use specific reasons and examples to support your answer.

    With at least some tertiary education, most native speakers would easily get 8+ Without tertiary education, probably less than that, but you see my point about education and general knowledge.

    The listening section is the hardest because if you miss an answer you can easily become disorientated in regard to where the recording is at. Rather than listening, candidates start skim reading the questions desperately trying to locate the next answer. It can go downhill from there very quickly. This happens to native speakers too.

  13. #280
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    Default Re: The Malcolm Turnbull thread

    Quote pipbarber said View Post
    Just a follow up to the discussion regarding English language requirements for citizenship. It seems an IELTS 6.0 across all disciplines (not an average) will be required. This is too high in my opinion. I think a 4.5 or 5 averaged score would enable people from any language group or educational background to succeed, with a few lessons in some cases, but by no means would it be overly onerous.

    The fact is that the average Arabic speakers would need to invest in months and even years of lessons to achieve a 6.0 in writing. Same with Hindi speakers, who'd probably get to 6.0 in speaking quite quickly but not when it comes to writing. German speakers on the other hand....

    I have no problem with the principle of an English language test. It is a statement on the fact that without functional English, marginalisation from mainstream society is more likely it therefore adds incentive to improve language skills. However, by setting the bar this high it is quite apparent that the government is simply using the IELTS test as a national gate keeping device. It's just wrong headed.

    One more point i'd make about this. I'm quite certain that 40-50% of native speaking Australians would fail to get a 6.0 in all skills on an IELTS test! It's fucking difficult. The reading and listening sections are designed to trick the test taker, they also require trained levels of concentration under high pressure time restricted conditions. There's got to be something wrong about expecting people who want to become citizens to use English more proficiently than half the existing citizens do.
    As far as I am concerned it is like questioning the percentage ratings of race. It is not something that qualifies a person as a good or bad person. This whole thing is utterly outrageous. Citizenship is not something to be used as a political football. Too many times in history it has been used as a precursor for greater evils.

    Edit: If we want to impose deliberate marginalisation and feelings of exclusion and insecurity, well I can't think of a more ideal way to go about it. The whole point is to diminish the share of Australia going to non-English speakers. However it does nothing to actually prevent foreigners buying up the country which is the real problem.

    It is a policy of marginalisation and inevitably will lead to increase levels of feelings of insecurity and exclusion. It really is a stupid policy which fails to consider how the targets of the policy will receive it. Very shortsighted. Good for Malcolm and Bill's votes, very bad for the country.
    Last edited by wadaye; 27th April 2017 at 11:32 AM.
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