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Thread: The Malcolm Turnbull thread

  1. #261
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    Default Re: The Malcolm Turnbull thread

    The thing with 'values' is everyone's are different.

    I think I am Aussie as, I drink beer, fart, swear a lot and like a bit of footy. Not too much mind, that's delving into yobbo territory. (Note to self, is a yobbo more or less Aussie than me? Tough question.)

    But I gotta say. Malcolms 'values' or dog forbid, Dutton's are fucking polar opposite to mine. I care about people. Dutton especially is just a racist arsehole and Turnbull really only cares about one thing, himself.

    So this idea of their 'values' is simply nationalism wrapped up as an us and them thing. I (or any migrant) can't win if they make the rules...
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    The Nizkor Project- Logical Fallacies

    Atheist: n; A person to be pitied in that he is unable to believe things for which there is no evidence, and who has thus deprived himself of a convenient means of feeling superior to others.
    —Chaz Bufe, The American Heretic’s Dictionary

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  3. #262
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    Default Re: The Malcolm Turnbull thread

    Quote wadaye said View Post
    @Pip i can understand English being a requirement for many jobs but not for citizenship. It is fundamentally racial discrimination.
    It is not emotional or passionate to point this out.
    it might be discrimination but it is not racial. there are lots of races who don't speak English as there are those who do.

    I think it is a stupid test because anyone, with reasonable effort, can learn English. Knowledge of English is an irrelevant indicator as to the contribution you will likely make to Australian society.

    Having said that, not speaking the local language is isolating and encourages gehtto-ification. what we should do is set up a program to teach migrants English. after all, didn't MT campaign on a platform of jobs? Maybe he meant Steve Jobs?
    The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it. (Osho)

  4. #263
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    Default Re: The Malcolm Turnbull thread

    Quote wolty said View Post
    The thing with 'values' is everyone's are different.

    I think I am Aussie as, I drink beer, fart, swear a lot and like a bit of footy. Not too much mind, that's delving into yobbo territory. (Note to self, is a yobbo more or less Aussie than me? Tough question.)

    But I gotta say. Malcolms 'values' or dog forbid, Dutton's are fucking polar opposite to mine. I care about people. Dutton especially is just a racist arsehole and Turnbull really only cares about one thing, himself.

    So this idea of their 'values' is simply nationalism wrapped up as an us and them thing. I (or any migrant) can't win if they make the rules...
    I agree although i think 'values', or 'cultural values' can be articulated in my opinion but only institutionally. Structure of government, judiciary and rule of law (encompassing gender equality, freedom of belief, marriage equality...no, not that one yet). Democratic process, obligatory education for under 16s, medicare, welfare, austudy...etc.

    I would say that these things are values, of a sort, that can be stated and claimed to be an integral part of Australian identity. Beyond that you're just playing with stereotypes for political ends i think. It's gross and so been done before its a fucking cliche.

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  6. #264
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    Default Re: The Malcolm Turnbull thread

    Quote wolty said View Post
    I think I am Aussie as, I drink beer, fart, swear a lot and like a bit of footy.
    You've described half the world's population there i reckon.

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  8. #265
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    Default Re: The Malcolm Turnbull thread

    I think having read all that I have to sum up here, "English" is not a value! English is a learned skill, like maths, skiing and driving. Would we reject someone because they can't drive? No!


    Not being able to drive is a disadvantage, it limits your job opportunities, not being able to speak English does the same. So what do we do in those situation? We provide training.


    Using a learned skill as a "value" is simply an incorrect use of logic and rational thought and anyone who does so should have their school leaving certificate revoked and be required to do it all again!
    From the mouth of a seven year old: "When you're you're dead, you don't go anywhere!"

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  10. #266
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    Default Re: The Malcolm Turnbull thread

    Quote wolty said View Post
    The thing with 'values' is everyone's are different.

    (snippo)
    "A fair go for all" used to be an Australian value.

    Perhaps I've lived too long.
    EJB

    I’m not one of the dead ones yet. - Ms Fishie.


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  12. #267
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    Default Re: The Malcolm Turnbull thread

    Quote pipbarber said View Post
    No, hang on. If you have been granted refugee status, you receive a permanent residency visa, right? ....
    Not any more. The law was changed some years back and now anyone who arrived without a visa is ineligible to apply for a protection visa unless given permission, and a protection visa for anyone who arrived in Australia without a visa is a three or five year temporary protection visa.
    "I'm an ape, I'm an African ape and I'm proud of it, and you should be too". Richard Dawkins

  13. #268
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    Default Re: The Malcolm Turnbull thread

    Quote The Irreverent Mr Black said View Post
    Quote wolty said View Post
    The thing with 'values' is everyone's are different.

    (snippo)
    "A fair go for all" used to be an Australian value.

    Perhaps I've lived too long.
    I think my best mate ticks all the boxes for what represents Australian values ("Australian values testing starts at home", Letters, April 21). He was born in the outer western suburbs of Sydney, with a working class background going back many generations. He is passionate about all water and ball sports, fiercely loyal to friends and family, and loves a barbie.
    He could probably run for Australian of the Year, if he did not bark so much when he got excited.
    Dog v2.0 said I should add the last bit, courtesy the SMH letters page.
    EJB

    I’m not one of the dead ones yet. - Ms Fishie.


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  15. #269
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    Default Re: The Malcolm Turnbull thread

    An Australian cultural [I]trait [/] to be valued is that of not taking anything too seriously, not getting whipped up into a frenzy about anything except at the grand final, but it's understood it's still only a game.

    I am referring to the scene of the mob of males in a frenzy as bearers are trying to carry a coffin forward.

    I cannot find the quote but I think it is in Ross McMullin's excellent biography of Harold 'Pompey' Elliot, WW1 fighting commander at Gallipoli and Villiers-Brettoneux. The book itself which my dad gave me is packed away.

    To one British commander vociferating that the Australian soldiers did not automatically salute a British officer, the reply to him was, "yes, but they'll give you a wave."

    This excerpt gives an insight into the Australian psyche and spirit. And may it endure in a world growing reactionary,

    'It has also been recorded that at this critical time an ecstatic old Frenchman says ‘Pas necessaire maintenant—vous les tiendrez, vous les tiendrez,’ and a nearby digger asks someone for a translation. When this digger is told that the Frenchman was saying ‘No need to leave now, you’ll hold them, you’ll hold them’, the digger says ‘Well, we’ll just have to make sure the old bloke isn’t disappointed.’'

    May I recommend the article,

    http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/~/~/lin...D53821004&_z=z
    Wars begin in the minds of men.
    The UNESCO motto, in Enlightenment Now, the Case for Reason, Science, Humanism and Progress, Steven Pinker, 2018.

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  17. #270
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    Default Re: The Malcolm Turnbull thread

    Quote pipbarber said View Post
    Quote wolty said View Post
    The thing with 'values' is everyone's are different.

    I think I am Aussie as, I drink beer, fart, swear a lot and like a bit of footy. Not too much mind, that's delving into yobbo territory. (Note to self, is a yobbo more or less Aussie than me? Tough question.)

    But I gotta say. Malcolms 'values' or dog forbid, Dutton's are fucking polar opposite to mine. I care about people. Dutton especially is just a racist arsehole and Turnbull really only cares about one thing, himself.

    So this idea of their 'values' is simply nationalism wrapped up as an us and them thing. I (or any migrant) can't win if they make the rules...
    I agree although i think 'values', or 'cultural values' can be articulated in my opinion but only institutionally. Structure of government, judiciary and rule of law (encompassing gender equality, freedom of belief, marriage equality...no, not that one yet). Democratic process, obligatory education for under 16s, medicare, welfare, austudy...etc.

    I would say that these things are values, of a sort, that can be stated and claimed to be an integral part of Australian identity. Beyond that you're just playing with stereotypes for political ends i think. It's gross and so been done before its a fucking cliche.
    Are these the same values as 10 years ago? 20? Do we have to update the test by usage every decade?

    Democratic process - people in Oz complain about it a lot. One Nation aren't big supporters of our processes, nor are the "sovereign citizens".
    obligatory education for under 16s - but there are groups who say "choice is all" and what about religious schools rather than secular ones?
    medicare the libs keep trying to get rid of it
    welfare - the libs and libertarians keep trying to get rid of it
    austudy - and again blah blah

    If these were part of the Australian Values test then a big chunk of our current citizens should get chucked out now!
    "History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government".
    -Thomas Jefferson

    Burden of proof is the obligation on somebody presenting a claim to provide evidence to support its truth (a warrant). Once evidence has been presented, it is up to any opposing "side" to show the evidence presented is not adequate. If claims were accepted without warrants, then every claim could simultaneously be claimed to be true.

    History isn't written by the victors. It's written by the people with the time machines.

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