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Thread: intelligent creator

  1. #61
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    odd is offline I, for one, welcome our new insect overlord. Moderator
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    Default Re: intelligent creator

    Quote The Irreverent Mr Black said View Post
    Quote dadmansabode said View Post
    I thought this was a good presentation for the origins of man and the Universe
    Indeed the things seen came about by the things unseen




    Indeed Science has no ability to touch the Supernatural (eternity) where time does not exist
    Science is generally piss-poor at punching unicorns too.

    DMA, I don't like the sneaky way you embed links to your "forum" under pictures in the text. The moderators may see that as spamming.

    For my part, I find the idea of a "forum" which is read-only to be as ludicrous as the "freedom" of obeying a set of Bronze-Age dick-worshipping rules.

    Maybe one day you'll have more than snide one-liners and spam-drops to offer. Till then, I might drop in now and then to scorn your more egregious efforts.

    (I know it's generally poor form to reply to the suspended, but I see Dadmansadobe is hanging around on the sidelines, and he may well be wanting something to read.)
    Given what we have seen, a read only forum may play to his strengths.
    Last edited by odd; 14th November 2017 at 12:54 PM.

    '[They] agreed that it was neither possible nor necessary to educate people who never questioned anything.' ― Joseph Heller, Catch-22

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    'I'm 'a' problem, not 'the' problem.' - Wolty

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  3. #62
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    Default Re: intelligent creator



    late to the party as usual.
    Prejudices are what fools use for reason. Voltaire


  4. #63
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    Default Re: intelligent creator

    Quote dadmansabode said View Post
    Simple Simple Simple question

    the words you typed above wolty, the letters you chose, the spaces and the punctuation you placed ..... did they

    1. fall where they are via random undirected chance .... or
    2. where they the result of intelligent design, displaying the intent of a conceptual point



    ...
    Let me address this fallacy of design please.

    First, there are things which are indeed designed. Human beings design all sorts of things. But a lot of other things do appear to be designed. Richard Dawkins called these objects "designoid".

    But what is design?

    There are three components really.

    1. Structure
    2. Function
    and
    3. Purpose.

    So let's use our imagination and design a chair. The purpose of the chair is to sit on [people can use them for other functions too, like stand on a chair to replace a light globe].

    For a chair to be functional, it has to have a viable design or structure. A chair with only two legs might be unstable. I suppose you could have many legs on the chair, and that would work, but most folks opt for three or four legs.

    Deliberate design of this type is so common is society, we take it for granted. So we just assume, if something is functional, it must have been designed, and designed with a purpose in mind. And if something is designed, it surely must have a designer. Quite reasonable so far. Even non-human animals can make and use tools. You won't find them designing space shuttles, but termite nests are pretty cool.

    But there is a twist. Designoid things, which have structure and function, can arise without a designer. In other words, with no purpose. The problem is that when people see designoid things, they assume purpose without really thinking about it. Like life.

    So let's see if such a system can arise naturally.

    I did mention that a designer has imagination. He/she visualises the chair, and how nice it would be to sit down on one.

    OK, that means we have to have a proxy that can do the job of imagination, AND something that could work in the absence of cognitive thought.

    Random variation can supply this. Living things replicate in one way or another. But if random variation happened in isolation, there would be chaos, right?

    So we have to have a filter, which we may agree, has some of the functionality of cognitive thought. And yes, Charles Darwin and others discovered it. It is called "Natural Selection".

    Suppose for example, that an animal required a thick coat to live in a cold climate. All those animals born with thicker fur would tend to survive and reproduce more than those with thin coats. There is your filter, the environment. Moreover, animals without fur coats would tend to migrate to warmer lands, and those with coats would tend to migrate to cooler places.

    Natural filters occur in the non-living world too. Evaporation of water causes clouds to form, which will eventually release their water as rain or now etc, and this water can be purer than the water on the ground. Otherwise we would all be drinking kangaroo piss or something. When water passes though some type of rock or sand, this can tend to filter and purify also. So, no magic required.

    But the main fallacy in your argument is that you have to demonstrate the intelligent creator exists first, before you can credit him/her with these "designs". So make god, or intelligent aliens a reality first.
    Last edited by Darwinsbulldog; 14th November 2017 at 04:46 PM.
    Just stick to the idea that science tests falsifiable hypotheses to destruction.

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    Default Re: intelligent creator

    The Book of Meh

    Dadmansabode 1:1

    Yea did Dadmansabode cometh before the wall of the non-believers
    As it has ever been, and as it ever will be, he did vomit upon the wall
    And he was proud of his vomit, for it glittered unto his own eyes with the gleam of Truth
    And he was proud for he had earned the points of Jesus for spraying the wall of unbelief with his vomit

    Dadmansabode 1:2

    Alas, the unbelievers did poketh his vomit and it was void of substance
    And yet did Dadmansabode proceed to exclaim that it was shiny! So very shiny!
    But even the simplest of thought could detect nothing but empty bile

    Dadmansabode 1:3

    And then did the warrior Mod come upon the wall, and Dadmansabode was found to be craven and of as little substance as his vomit
    And the warrior did banish the vomiter of bile to the distant lands of Suspendia
    For as it has always been and as it will ever be, Suspendia is the place for those of empty vomit

    Dadmansabode 1:4

    And as it has ever been, and as it will ever be, the non-believers were heard to utter, "Meh"
    "Send me money, send me green, heaven you will meet. Make your contribution and you'll get a better seat" - Metallica, Leper Messiah

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    Default Re: intelligent creator

    Quote dadmansabode said View Post
    Seriously ?? you can't display the differences between patterns and code ??

    I'll give you a hint .... is sheet music pattern or code




    ...this is not ending well folks
    The ASCII to decimal equivalent of the text of this entire thread, including whatever hasn't been written yet, in exact order, appears at some unknown point in pi. Completely by chance.

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    Default Re: intelligent creator

    Quote MikeJay said View Post
    Quote dadmansabode said View Post
    Seriously ?? you can't display the differences between patterns and code ??

    I'll give you a hint .... is sheet music pattern or code




    ...this is not ending well folks
    The ASCII to decimal equivalent of the text of this entire thread, including whatever hasn't been written yet, in exact order, appears at some unknown point in pi. Completely by chance.
    BelieverType counters with "... as foretold in prophecy", and wheels in that book-selling fellow to inform us it's all there in the Koine Greek.
    EJB

    Iím not one of the dead ones yet. - Ms Fishie.


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    Default Re: intelligent creator

    Quote The Irreverent Mr Black said View Post
    BelieverType counters with "... as foretold in prophecy", and wheels in that book-selling fellow to inform us it's all there in the Koine Greek.
    I'll bet they don't understand Pi is the infinite expression of the million monkeys typing analogy.

  12. #68
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    Default Re: intelligent creator

    I like Pi. I also like Pie. I detect a pattern.
    "Send me money, send me green, heaven you will meet. Make your contribution and you'll get a better seat" - Metallica, Leper Messiah

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  14. #69
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    Default Re: intelligent creator

    This question is for when you return to us:

    Quote dadmansabode said View Post
    I need the answer for this claim: with intelligent creation we must have intelligent creator.

    Indeed .... only intelligence can beget intelligence .... only life can beget life
    You have the following claims:
    1: only intelligence can beget intelligence
    2: only life can beget life
    3: with intelligent creation we must have intelligent creator

    3 is just a tautology that has no value as a claim. "Intelligent creation" is simply defined as that produced by an "intelligent creator"

    so for 3 to be a claim it must be split thus:

    3: there is an intelligent creator
    4: there is an intelligent creation

    I would accept that a computer like the one I am using is an intelligent creation and than one or more human beings were the intelligent creators ultimately. However this device was probably created in actuality by an automaton which immediately breaks the claim that there "must be" an intelligent creator for every intelligent creation. If humans disappeared but the factory kept going then intelligent creations would keep being created by unintelligent automatons.

    I assume you wish to claim that the universe is an intelligent creation and that there is some deity that was the intelligent creator. If that is the case you must demonstrate both those claims.

    So, here are the questions that you must answer upon returning:


    1: claim: only intelligence can beget intelligence. Question: how can you show this claim to be the case?

    2: claim: only life can beget life. Question: how can you show this claim to be the case?

    3: The universe is an intelligent creation. Question: how can you show this claim to be the case?

    4: There is a deity that acts as an intelligent creator for the universe. Question: how can you show this claim to be the case?
    "History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government".
    -Thomas Jefferson

    Burden of proof is the obligation on somebody presenting a claim to provide evidence to support its truth (a warrant). Once evidence has been presented, it is up to any opposing "side" to show the evidence presented is not adequate. If claims were accepted without warrants, then every claim could simultaneously be claimed to be true.

    History isn't written by the victors. It's written by the people with the time machines.

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    Default Re: intelligent creator

    The funny thing about the assertion that intelligence is required to beget intelligence is that it leads one straight into the kind of infinite regress that makes apologists' heads explode, and for which the entire class of 'prime mover' arguments were erected to defeat.

    This is among the worst of the cognitive dissonances faced by apologists who erect asinine arguments without understanding them.

    Incidentally, Danny, you up for a Skype chat sometime soon? I have most of the day available tomorrow.
    Last edited by hackenslash; 19th November 2017 at 05:51 AM.


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