Co-parenting with a theist

[Bolero]

(Apologies to those who may have seen this on RS)

Hi, I'm a new forum member, and I live in an odd household.

So my hubby is a lovely caring man, great partner, and a fantastic father, but he's also a raving lunatic fundie who frequents church every Sunday (sometimes twice!), goes to Bible study once a week, and reads Bible passages every morning before getting out of bed to face the day. We went through a terrible patch early last year when I "came out" of the atheist closet, and almost ended up separated (until his church advised him to stick with me and try to convert me so I don't go burn for eternity in hell http://www.rationalskepticism.org/images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif ).

We've done the counselling thing, and really, the counsellor concluded that it wasn't a big deal because everything else in our relationship is fine. I then found out the counsellor was a theist, and decided his advice was ... not to my tastes, anyway.

On Sunday, as some of you know, I went to a gathering of folks from this forum, and had been planning to take the kids, except hubby got up first and whisked them off to church before I got up and could have a say in it. Upon my return home, a large argument took place, during which he essentially said he doesn't want the children exposed to my "shit beliefs" (his words) at this impressionable age. Sigh.

Of course I pointed out all the usual things - my views are not "beliefs", but a lack of belief; he's obviously quite happy "exposing" them to his own crap; I'm their mother, and I have a right to put forward my views, and take them to a bbq if I want to - I'm not doing anything harmful... except, of course, he thinks it's a form of child abuse to let atheists talk to children.

So here we are. I don't know what to do sometimes, with the whole kids thing. Sometimes I think that's all that's keeping me there. But then other times (most times) he's this awesome guy that I love.

Thanks for reading. Any and all advice appreciated.

Bolero.

[davo]

I wonder if there is any way he can come to realise it is simply a social event, not a 'impose on kids no-god' event.

I'm at a loss, it's so hard a situation but there are others on the board in this predicament I'm sure. Maybe not to the extent you find yourself in :/

Wish I could say something constructive ... I know people personally in difficult parenting situations, none of them are easy :(

[Praxis]

*deep breath* Sorry if this sounds bad, but I don't think "great father" and "raving fundie" can be together in the same sentence. Sorry :confused:

I don't have any advice to offer you. I couldn't and wouldn't do it myself, I know that for sure.

Good luck.

[Annie]

I guess I dont have any advice either Bolero. I think it's a very difficult situation to be in. Maybe ask yourself if you can see things improving, what you want out of a relationship and can you persevere in this relationship with more of the same for many years to come. The answers you come up with will be your own food for thought.

[Centauri]

I think your kids are lucky to have you. Although they are being exposed to religion, they also have a rational, thinking Mum where they can escape if they wish to and access all the information that pertains to the real world. They won't be indocrinated like other kids with two fundie parents, but instead be made aware that there are lots of different gods that have been invented across all the countries of the world, and that there is also the [overwhelming] likelihood that there is no god.

Good on you for being so brave. Your kids will one day be adults, and even if they decide to be fundies when they are old enough to make up their own mind, you can take comfort in being there for them throughout their childhood as a voice of reason whenever they should need it.

:)

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

I do not speak from the perspective of a parent, only from that of a former lil' devil with an original diagnosis of autism.

When I was younger (translated to "Ah say when Ah was a young boi... At the age o' fahv..." or something similar) I was wishing that I was not in a muslim family. I also wish they never threatened me when I started thinking differently to them, or when I tried out Christianity for a bit (when I did get very old) too.

At least you are not a religious fanatic, and in my opinion, one non-fundie is better than two.

Just make sure your children overhear your conversations you two have about this; I wish my parents would have been like this, and if I had heard the other side as early as childhood, I'd probably be able to make my mind instead of believing this shit-stirring nonsense they call Islam; the peaceful religion.

Now I am not sure how this advice will work out for you since everybody is different in some way or another I guess, but let's hope things work out for you. I share the same thoughts that Praxis does: I don't think "fundie" and "great father" go together. In fact, I think "fundie" and "possibly unwittingly a child abuser" go very well.

[cyclist]

I'm not a parent, so I have no experience in this.

Is it possible to take only one of the children with you to events like the get together on the weekend? The reason being, is that the kids will talk among themselves and compare their experiences, and (hopefully) they will come out on the non-religious side.

Just a thought.

James

[Somnambulist]

I'll tell you what my experience was, as a kid in a very similar situation. If this helps at all...

I grew up with a fundamentalist father and a mother who's self-declared as "Catholic". Though she was Catholic, she never did a second of preaching to us, and would warn us about our father's preaching. I suspect now that she only says she is a Catholic to appease her family (after some really eye-opening discussions I had with her).

One problem we had was that our father would talk to us about Mom's beliefs, and how they are wrong. On the other hand, Mom always talked about how the only holy thing about Dad is his "holy socks". Don't vent to your kids. This will set them up for confusion and anxiety.

Always when the other was within earshot too... They eventually divorced, and my mother regretted not doing it sooner.

It can become a really ugly situation. My family is now divided. My brother is like my Dad, completely locked in... I'm the skeptical one, and I can't even talk to my brother/dad anymore, but my relationship with my mom is stronger than ever. After watching how dad gradually condemned his whole family one by one to hellfire, I can no longer accept him in my life. He tried SO hard to make us into perfect little believers, that he blew it with me... I feel bad about not talking to him, but I shouldn't. He was an abusive shit and gets what's coming to him.

While my father was descending into sheer insanity little by little, preaching to us for many many hours, condemning everything to hellfire, etc, our mother was teaching by example. Every time they had an argument, it was my father who raised his voice first, it was my father who stormed off, it was my father who had to spend hours with us explaining his behaviour: why he was yelling at Mom, etc.

Mom had no explaining to do, as she would be patient and quiet during his little fits of rage. Finally, when he was hyperventilating and red in the face, then she would stand up for herself. Ideally, your kids should not be anywhere within earshot for any arguments, but we live in far from a perfect world. So in the event they are within earshot, make sure they have an image of you as a strong woman who doesn't take shit and stands up for herself. That strong example that you set will hopefully outshine his hypocrisy. It sure worked for my mother... I don't believe any dogmatic BS today, but it took a lot of recovering for me to get to this point.

Definitely talk with them, but more importantly listen to what they have to say, because their father is likely to do a lot more talking at them than listening. If they have questions, answer them honestly, and definitely make sure that they know they can fully confide in you. Hope this helps...

P.S.: Forgot to mention: welcome to the forums! I'm a new member myself

[Logic please]

Lots of great comments in this thread, unfortunately about a very fraught situation :(

@Bolero: I can't see any progress likely, in your dispute with hubby... except in the event that one of you change your entrenched position.

Following on from Centauri, all I can think, is to keep reinforcing to your children, as they get older, that it's ultimately their decision on what beliefs or non-beliefs they have. No matter what some might have them think... perhaps also encourage them to come to you if they want to discuss any questions, about what they are hearing from church etc.

I can only wish you luck. :(

[RealityRules]

I can only empathise and suggest patience, and suggest you Document all situations where you feel like you have been abused - verbally, emotionally, "spiritually", etc - try to do it to something you can back up on-line - google docs, microsoft workspaces, yahoo zumo drivce, outlook journal, etc.

Tell you husband he is verbally and emotionally abusing you if you think he is. Be calm but firm, Perhaps say your views are considered and reasoned, yet not oppositional in terms of seeking another supernatural belief alternate to his.

Seek professional consultation with DoCS or some other agency if the situation continues to be abusive or escalates. It may be worthwhile registering a complaint with the police if necessary.

Seek some other people you can talk to, as well.

If you think the situation is affecting the children, make school, or pre-school aware there is some tension at home and ask them to monitor the children for signs of being affected by it.

[Onlyatheory?]

Wow, .....I mean, WOW!:( The fact that I have met you face-to-face puts a very personal slant on this post for me. Also, the fact that our kids are very similar ages makes it even more personal and I say with all sincerity, my heart breaks for you.

I can give no meaningful advice really except to say that I disagree with Somnambulist in the sense that I think that children should be able to see their parents argue. It is just one (hopefully rare) facet of a relationship. I give it as much importance as showing tolerance, love, affection, selflessness........etc. However, I do agree with Som, that when the arguments occur, the best thing you can do is to stay calm, stay rational and show them that it is possible (best even) that if you are to disagree with your partner, you can do it with respect, strength and control.

I feel very helpless for you. There are plenty here that are up for a chat at any time day or night should you feel the need to vent. Good luck.

[DanDare]

Sorry he was a pain about it. Maybe you should have stayed even later to make the most of a nice day :)

Did you mention that the other kids there just played with a frisbie and didn't get prostheletyzed or even eaten a little bit?

Anyway, you obviously have a very balanced attitude. You love your kids and your husband, but you are willing to stand your ground. It might be a pain at times but that's a pretty good way to handle it. And as long as you speak your mind calmly and firmly the kids will get it even if hubby never does. If they act like believers with dad but give knowing looks to mum then I wouldn't be too worried.

[Somnambulist]

I disagree with Somnambulist in the sense that I think that children should be able to see their parents argue. It is just one (hopefully rare) facet of a relationship.

I think you're probably right about that, Onlyatheory. I think it's good to avoid in a lot of circumstances, but it makes sense that they should see this. Sheltering your kids can result in a limited understanding of what's happening, and also leave them feeling excluded. "You wouldn't understand honey. This is grown-up stuff"

I think it all depends on the age of the child, and the severity of the arguments. For example: If a male child sees daddy hit mommy at an early age, then he might form some negative views of how to treat women. Or a female child in the same situation might be less likely to call the police in an abusive relationship as an adult (provided the mother doesn't call the police herself).

[bruce1937]

Sorry he was a pain about it. Maybe you should have stayed even later to make the most of a nice day :)

Did you mention that the other kids there just played with a frisbie and didn't get prostheletyzed or even eaten a little bit?

Anyway, you obviously have a very balanced attitude. You love your kids and your husband, but you are willing to stand your ground. It might be a pain at times but that's a pretty good way to handle it. And as long as you speak your mind calmly and firmly the kids will get it even if hubby never does. If they act like believers with dad but give knowing looks to mum then I wouldn't be too worried.


My daughter attends church with her mother and pays lip service to whatever is put forward, but she is just keeping the peace with her mother.
I agree it is best for the children to witness any arguments as long as you remain calm and logical, as they will think about what was said and that is what they need. Once they start thinking about the subject for themselves and not just being brainwashed by both or one parent then you can be fairly confident that the woo virus will not take hold.

[Onlyatheory?]

I think you're probably right about that, Onlyatheory. I think it's good to avoid in a lot of circumstances, but it makes sense that they should see this. Sheltering your kids can result in a limited understanding of what's happening, and also leave them feeling excluded. "You wouldn't understand honey. This is grown-up stuff"

I think it all depends on the age of the child, and the severity of the arguments. For example: If a male child sees daddy hit mommy at an early age, then he might form some negative views of how to treat women. Or a female child in the same situation might be less likely to call the police in an abusive relationship as an adult (provided the mother doesn't call the police herself).

I was speaking in a more general sense. I don't overly shield our kids on the rare occasions that my wife and I do argue. I think that it is important to teach the kids that sometimes adults don't agree and that when they don't, they can have a calm and reasoned 'argument' to sort it out.

As for depending on the severity of the argument: If mum is being hit by dad, then that is a whole other ballgame.

[Bolero]

Hey folks. Thanks for all the advice and offers of support. As I've gotten to know the atheist community here in Brissie, it's made things a helluvalot easier for me in terms of finding likeminded people who understand how hard this can be. Sometimes, the biggest problem we have here in Oz is that people really DON'T understand the power of religion, because mostly it's social or kind of harmless here.

When a loved one is in the grip of a mainstream doctrine, it's hard to convince mostly live-and-let-live Aussies that it's like having a cult member in the family (in fact, I consider all religions "cults", so it's exactly the same IMO).

Let me be clear on something, though. I do not feel that abuse is happening. I am not an abused spouse - I have seen the damage that real abuse does, and this is nothing like that. I'm very capable of telling the difference, and certainly stand up for myself (strongly) if I disagree.

I don't want to misrepresent hubby here. He's actually the kind of guy you wouldn't suspect was a fundie - leftie politics, alternative/hard rock music tastes, off-beat dirty sense of humour, loves out-of-left-field popular culture, and so on. You would probably like him a lot if you met him - everyone always does. This is another reason it's hard to find people sympathetic to the situation ... I sometimes think our friends and acquaintances don't believe me about his beliefs.

[Fearless]

Hi Bolero, (welcome to the forums)

You aren't alone with your situation but children certainly throw a difficult slant on things. I am fortunate to be with someone who was agnostic but with no encouragement from me is starting to identify as an atheist. We have just had a baby and it's both set of parents who are asking:

"Are you going to Christen him?" knowing fully well we are not religious.

I don't say anything, my wife doesn't say much either... changing the subject/silence sometimes answers well enough. Easier not to argue sometimes.

If my child grows up and wants to do his own thing all power to him. As long as he hasn't been brainwashed/coerced either way.

Anyway, this is not about me and my family but with due respect I think your husband is being a bit of a hypocrite with his views and behaviours, but I think you know that anyway. I know a bunch of religious who want to pray one minute and play death metal the next... I don't know... like drinking a diet coke and eating KFC... some people just like to do what they think makes them feel better. Religion being a crutch is just that, little point arguing over it unfortunately, like arguing if grey is a colour... what's the point?

That 'shit belief' aggressive response which I have seen more than one time myself is the one thing that finds me parting with people holding that ignorant view. In your situation it is not that simple and it's obvious that love is there but there has to be a compromise or it is not fair and equal... try and encourage him to come to the next social gathering. Might just change his mind a bit... after all he still loves you and you don't eat babies or anything... you must be ok!

I don't mean to make light of your situation as it is a bit of a delicate one, but just keep talking it out here if you need to. I wouldn't want to be in your situation but I hope something balances out for you and your kids.

All the best.

[Fromm_Nicht]

He's actually the kind of guy you wouldn't suspect was a fundie - leftie politics, alternative/hard rock music tastes, off-beat dirty sense of humour, loves out-of-left-field popular culture, and so on.

He sounds like a great guy and, as Fearless mentioned, a major hypocrite (sorry to say). Perhaps this is how you can talk some sense into him, by getting well acquainted with the bible and pointing out the bits that are abhorrent to a left leaning world view (like most of it for example). I'm sure there are a number of people on these forums who are living proof that it is never too late to remove yourself from the shackles of belief. Perhaps there is hope for your husband to see reason, and at least ditch the fundamentalist christian thing if not the whole belief in fairies thing altogether.

[Somnambulist]

Hi Bolero,

Sorry if it seemed like I was applying the word abuse to your situation. It certainly fit with how I was raised, but my father also had a mental illness and a physically abusive father himself. Not all Christians are going to do that to their kids, but whenever I hear about the indoctrination, it makes me clench my teeth. Just wanted to make sure you heard about how bad it can get. I'm sure there's much worse off folks than me out there... My dad never hit me, just policed us like a dictator (which I consider abuse).

It's good that you have a loving husband who doesn't forfeit all fun out of life to his higher power. I'm sure you've got what it takes to make the best of the situation and give the kids a good upbringing.

Cheers,

Som

[Nahtan]

My wife is a Christian, and with my older daughter(3 year old) mum some times takes her to church, but I don't mind that to much because I figure she also believes in fairies and magic at the moment. And I also try to get her to still and watch documentaries with me, so she isn't just learning the world was made by magic.

I don't like to think of my self as being an Atheist, I prefer to think that I just use logic and reason to decide what is real, instead of faith or belief, and when me and my wife have argued over religion I have just tried to say that if there are parts of her religion that are logical, or based on reason, then I will be happy to agree for those parts. I think religious people seem to think of Atheism as an antireligion, and so I find if I talk about being logical or rational instead, my wife finds it easier to understand and relate to than if I try to talk about being an Atheist.

Good luck with sorting out a way to cope with the religious differences between you and your husband. I hope you are able to find a solution where you are both happy.

[Reasonathe]

Dear Bolero,
I admire your commitment for your relationship and your children.

Although my partner is not - aaah - strange in this way, I have often and very intensely felt like this, which let me to deceide that my childrens wellbeing was - for me - of paramount importance. This - unfortunately - allready unfolds the complications as - of course - having both parents is a vital part of this. I'm afraid, you _are_ in a very difficult situation...

It is also true, that you cannot be accepting of every transgression as others have said before.
Without detailed and personal knowledge about you and your partner, which - imho - does not belong into a forum unless you are certain to be able to tolerate having it read out loud in your partners church, more than vague and general advise - imho - cannot, and should not, be given.

However, several things come to mind:
- you seem to continue holding a significant degree of positive emotions towards your partner, despite those being seriously shaken.
- you think about your children's wellbeing in terms indicating a state of "cooperation is possible" - although it is not clear how.
- There seems to be no other support for you.
- There are several and pronounced tribal behaviors of your partner described, that indicate the activation of that latent state of "Non-tribal others are doomed & inferior or doomed, inferior & evil", which in turn activates "Non-tribal others need to become tribe members or else need to be (choose degree): excluded/ attacked/ annihilated."
- He seems to have tribal guidance in this regards and made up his agenda to some extent, suggesting that he maybe one step ahead.
- He seems to feel certain enough to be able to use passive-aggressive comments and actions - all of which is easier for him as he will either never be uncertain about it or construct uncertainty within tribal moral (= define it as the devils work).

This does not sound so funny...

On the other hand:
- if he is the guy as you suggest, it will be very difficult for him to deny his kids wellbeing depends on both parents... you should insist in being taken serious if he wants to be taken serious... this will be a test as to how tribalized and - to rational standards - unethical his moral has become... but you may be able to work with this...
- Bible-work is good :D you should do it with _him_ (not with his group...). Just imagine, what you can do with it!
I'm not trying to suggest to pretend an interest that you don't have, but 1.) any constructive communication is good for a relationship; 2.) you learn heaps - about the "inside"; 3.) there will be opportunities to plant indelible questions or comments...
- You are making contacts
- You may need more concrete coaching...

No offence... just my 2c

Cheers, R

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

I am in full agreement with Reasonathe here; in particular, this part:

Dear Bolero,
I admire your commitment for your relationship and your children.

Although my partner is not - aaah - strange in this way, I have often and very intensely felt like this, which let me to deceide that my childrens wellbeing was - for me - of paramount importance. This - unfortunately - allready unfolds the complications as - of course - having both parents is a vital part of this. I'm afraid, you _are_ in a very difficult situation...

It is also true, that you cannot be accepting of every transgression as others have said before.
Without detailed and personal knowledge about you and your partner, which - imho - does not belong into a forum unless you are certain to be able to tolerate having it read out loud in your partners church, more than vague and general advise - imho - cannot, and should not, be given.

However, several things come to mind:
- you seem to continue holding a significant degree of positive emotions towards your partner, despite those being seriously shaken.
- you think about your children's wellbeing in terms indicating a state of "cooperation is possible" - although it is not clear how.
- There seems to be no other support for you.
- There are several and pronounced tribal behaviors of your partner described, that indicate the activation of that latent state of "Non-tribal others are doomed & inferior or doomed, inferior & evil", which in turn activates "Non-tribal others need to become tribe members or else need to be (choose degree): excluded/ attacked/ annihilated."
- He seems to have tribal guidance in this regards and made up his agenda to some extent, suggesting that he maybe one step ahead.
- He seems to feel certain enough to be able to use passive-aggressive comments and actions - all of which is easier for him as he will either never be uncertain about it or construct uncertainty within tribal moral (= define it as the devils work).
Although I am not, and have zero intentions of being, a parent, and I am not married, advice in general cannot be given with a great deal of specification (it will be generic and may/may not suit you) unless such details are present. So far I am seeing a "blinded by love" situation.

[FSM]

I'm about to become a parent for the first time and my wife is a token Catholic scientist, and I thought that was bad enough!
So I'm likely going to have to cave on the whole whole christening, catholic public school thing, but at least I can rest assured they will get no religion and nothing but reason at home or outside of school.

A fundie must be hard to deal with, but if you can keep your sense of humor it may actually be more fun and satisfying if you can covertly teach your kids to believe in reason instead of fairy tales.

Many others on here have convinced me it's actually better that the kids "know the enemy" anyway, and have some exposure to religion, so they come out as stronger more knowledgeable atheists.
It's like the old saying "you don't go into the seminary coming out believing in god"

Good luck
Dave.

[Centauri]

So I'm likely going to have to cave on the whole whole circumcision, christening, catholic public school thing,

please, please, please don't cave in!! Don't let them mutilate the child's genitals! Resist with every fibre of your being. You might accept the fairy nonsense of the christening (I would be clenching my teeth throughout, though), but what right do they have to hack off part of a baby's penis?

I think it's irrelevant who your partner is or what kind of relationship you have, but I would lose all respect for you if you sit back and let them harm this child.

:mad:

"If someone told me to cut my child in order to please them, I would say "no, FUCK YOU" - Christopher Hitchens.

[Onlyatheory?]

please, please, please don't cave in!! Don't let them mutilate the child's genitals! Resist with every fibre of your being. You might accept the fairy nonsense of the christening (I would be clenching my teeth throughout, though), but what right do they have to hack off part of a baby's penis?

I think it's irrelevant who your partner is or what kind of relationship you have, but I would lose all respect for you if you sit back and let them harm this child.

:mad:

"If someone told me to cut my child in order to please them, I would say "no, FUCK YOU" - Christopher Hitchens.


Thank you, thank you, thank you, Centauri. I read that post and had my fingers ready to start typing immediately.

Think of it like this......How about you let your child reach, say 15yo. At that point you then say, come here son, I want you to let this man cut off part of your penis.........no, no, no, I don't want you to have to do this either. I just want to keep the piece and you don't have a choice. Let's just do this to keep Mum happy, OK?:mad::mad::mad:

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

I'm about to become a parent for the first time and my wife is a token Catholic scientist, and I thought that was bad enough!
So I'm likely going to have to cave on the whole whole circumcision, christening, catholic public school thing, but at least I can rest assured they will get no religion and nothing but reason at home or outside of school.Why the fucking hell would you want to let your child go into the hands of some child-fucking death cult?! I'm sorry, but this is just plain fucking stupid; do NOT let the child be mutilated. As for the christening, you really don't want him to be made a "statistic" of the church, unable to be deregistered. Although nothing too bad I guess you can put up with the christening, but I have a problem with letting him get mutilated without his consent.

The Catholic public school... well OK so long as he doesn't get brainwashed - I've been to two Christian schools when I was a kid, no choice but to attend their fucking zombie worshipping gay hating lessons.

Only problem I see here is a conflict of interest between Catholic wife and atheist husband.

Centauri and Onlyatheory? are right on with this one.

(What the hell is with people who want to cave in and do whatever the fundie partner says just to satisfy his/her needs - you guys are people too you know)

[riddlemethis]

I'm about to become a parent for the first time and my wife is a token Catholic scientist, and I thought that was bad enough!
So I'm likely going to have to cave on the whole whole circumcision, christening, catholic public school thing, but at least I can rest assured they will get no religion and nothing but reason at home or outside of school.

A fundie must be hard to deal with, but if you can keep your sense of humor it may actually be more fun and satisfying if you can covertly teach your kids to believe in reason instead of fairy tales.

Many others on here have convinced me it's actually better that the kids "know the enemy" anyway, and have some exposure to religion, so they come out as stronger more knowledgeable atheists.
It's like the old saying "you don't go into the seminary coming out believing in god"

Good luck
Dave.

I completely agree with the others on this Dave. I'm a mother, and my son is circ'd (medical reasons - but even then we opted for more of a 'tip-ectomy' than a full circ, so he's a half-hoody!) but I would say that there is absolutely no reason to circumcise a boy unless there are medical grounds to do so. Both you and your wife should look at the plentiful research that is available & inform yourselves on this matter. Please don't let Catholic penis-guilt see you cutting your baby boy for no good reason.

[FSM]

Dave, the circ thing is not xtian. It's Hebrew.

There is actually a warning not to do it in Galatians:

It's probably the partner rather than the priest who's insisting, but perhaps they need a bit of bible teachin'.

Relax people, the fight has not even begun on that one. I find it as disgusting a practice as you do.
I made a mistake in mentioning it in the same context as the other other things.
It has nothing to do with church or religion.

Dave.

[Reasonathe]

Dear all,

May I add to the above from the Newbies persepective? Thank you.

1.) I notice - once again - how inescapable the forming of tribes for us African apes is, how microscopically thin the layer of "civilization" is.
To put it brutal: we are just giving a beautiful example of the rule: "tribe-members-appearing-to-transgress-the-norm-need-to-be-punished". Well, I'm not saying that is wrong, mind you... I do think this provides much of the "social glue". Don't be mistaken... and of course I know: this is not how it's meant.
However, compared to tribes with norms based on superstitious thinking, our advantage is/ should be/ to _know_ that only "enlightenment" - conscious, critical attention the details and the whole - will make things better - so let's practice...

2.) This brings me to what I consider to be a degree of neglect of the above whenever the connection is made between 'mutilation' and 'circumcision' - and we mean 'genital mutilation', when we say that.

And yes - to take the air out of that one - a procedure that cannot be justified with a good reason + supporting evidence _and_ if those do not outweigh the risks of it, simply is not justified. That should be a given.

The real point to me appears to be the fallacy of "faulty analogy" based on two aspects that are being oddly connected, as I suspect for questionable reasons:
Aspect 1: "Genital mutilation occurs, it effects genitals and it is a procedure without reasonable justification"
Aspect 2: "Because circumcision effects the penis, it is an unnecessary procedure, it must be a genital mutilation"

This seems false to me as there are several problems with that:
Different from female genital mutilation (aka FGM), there can be relative, and I seem to remember even absolute indications for circumcision. It cannot be stressed enough, that THIS IS NEVER TRUE FOR FEMALES. There are zero indications for FGM - it is the ultimate exertion of tribal norms over an idividuum, which in the case of FGM is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE then a physical statement of sexual power and control of males over female members of the tribe - don't bother reminding me that in real life, it's usually done by closely related female members as it makes no difference.

As it comes up so frequently it may be useful to remember: In FGM - I won't bother going into the different types... - more often then not, the Labia minora, Labia majora and the Clitoris are amputated and the introitus (entrance of the vagina) is narrowed ('infibulaton') to a small opening to allow for period bleeding while introducing anything well become very painful - if you survive.

This will effectively bring your capacity of having a sexual life very close to zero - which is the whole point. You will also have to be 'de-fibulated' in order to answer your males desires and later again to give birth.

Even if done under the best medical conditions, which is not the case, you would acutely have a high risk of infections and forever continue to have all sorts of complications - apart from the loss of your sexual life.

On the other hand circumcision - nowadays usually done under good medical conditions - as far as woo-reasoning goes is a Jewish 'must'. It is the exertion of tribal norms to constitute identity with the tribe.
There is no intention to control male tribe members body or sexual life and there are males that consent to it as adults without being forced.
The part removed - the foreskin - serves some mechanical functions: protection of the glans, ease of penetration by providing a sheath-function. Basic stuff. Removing it also means reducing the risk for certain viral infections and other aspects are often mentioned, including the question as to how much it IMPROVES your sex live.

However. There is one thing that it is not: a removal of your genital (and to be anatomically correct in comparison: you would have to add the scrotal sack to it...).

To put it cynical: As a circumcised male, to compare yourself with females having had genital mutilation forced upon them, appears to be an attempt to reduce ones own (felt, however misconstrued) sense of guilt by way of identification with victims.
I consider it to be a fallacy as it is based on false analogy, misrepresentation and - worst of all - the attempt to benefit.

So, lets get try be clear about our motivations... of course one may be very emotional about things raised; but if we scrutinize - as we should - let's make foundations grounded in reason - not tribal norms.

Also, lets not pretend, circumcision is equal to FGM - apart from that not being true (to me that is; and: yes, with good evidence: I will change my mind) it also is offensive to those that were and are being tortured and damaged by it.

No offense... just my 2c

[Bolero]

I know many of you think I'm a bit nuts, or "blinded by love", or whatever, but the truth of the matter is that I'm the one whose opinion has changed. I married him, knowing what he was and what I was, and convinced love could conquer all ...

I was just wrong. "Love" - whatever that is - cannot conquer all. It's basically just lust mixed in with a bit of admiration, some things in common, respect (hopefully) and effective communication skills. Frankly, once the lust goes, we're f*cked, I think. (Hmmm, something not quite right about that turn of phrase....)

But basically I'm a very positive, optimistic person, and day-to-day life is pretty good. This is probably going to get me down eventually, but a small part of me hopes that I can reason him out of it. Maybe stupid, nuts, blind ... but he's the father of my kids, and he deserves better than to be stuck in the Jesus cult for the rest of his life.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

If you married him with the hope that he will one day realize that his beliefs are utter bollocks, good luck. I've never been able to get anybody to realize that. Although I'm not married so maybe this will turn out different... who knows.

[RealityRules]

... he's the father of my kids, and he deserves better than to be stuck in the Jesus cult for the rest of his life.

You seem quite positive. Yet, you deserve better than to be yelled at that "your beliefs are shit". Keep notes of conversations as part of an attempt to talk it out. The future is a big unknown. Very best wishes, and regards. :)

[Somnambulist]

I know many of you think I'm a bit nuts, or "blinded by love", or whatever, but the truth of the matter is that I'm the one whose opinion has changed. I married him, knowing what he was and what I was, and convinced love could conquer all ...

You seem incredibly sane, but if you were a little nuts: there's nothing wrong with a little bit of column B mixed in with column A. :p

If you want to regret the choice to marry him, you can, but it has also brought these beautiful children into your life, who would not be there otherwise. Was my mother crazy to marry my dad? Of course she was, but then again, I'm alive! So he's a fundamentalist. Life's full of challenges, and there's a lot to be said for human adaptability in light of difficult situations. Look out for your wellbeing, and the wellbeing of your kids, and nobody will ever be able to say it wasn't for lack of trying. Your children will love and respect you as long as you love them and nurture them. This includes encouraging them to question things ;). Even if your husband disagrees, your children will thank you later.

You seem like a great caring mother, just from your desire to make things work out. Your kids are in good hands.

[Lord Blackadder]

Dear all, May I add to the above from the Newbies persepective? Thank you... {snip} No offense... just my 2c

Sorry mate, have to go with the Hitch here.

Mutilation of any child, male or female, is despicable.

The science supporting the "circumcision prevents penile cancer/urinary tract infections/HIV is contentious at best and bollocks at worst (FYI - women have higher rates of urinary tract infections. Should women all be circumcised?).

If a boy needs to be circumcised for medical reasons (such as RMT was referring to) that is a different story. Religious, cultural and woo reasons just don't cut it (pardon the pun). The Royal Australasian College of Physicians (RACP; September 2010) are against the practice, stating that "After reviewing the currently available evidence, the RACP believes that the frequency of diseases modifiable by circumcision, the level of protection offered by circumcision and the complication rates of circumcision do not warrant routine infant circumcision in Australia and New Zealand. However it is reasonable for parents to weigh the benefits and risks of circumcision and to make the decision whether or not to circumcise their sons." The Tasmanian President of the Australian Medical Association (AMA), Haydn Walters, has stated that the AMA would support a call to ban circumcision for non-medical, non-religious reasons. (Source: Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision))

Also note that the foreskin is homologous with the clitoral hood. So there goes the argument regarding "no loss of sexual feeling/function". Or did I miss something that day is sex education class? It has also been proposed that the foreskin evolved to facilitate wanking, which would explain the monotheistic religions' desire to get rid of it...

[Bolero]

So, for others out there doing the raising of kids with someone religious, how do you manage? I mean, my husband is - with relish, I think - at some point going to tell the kids I'm going to hell and that it's all very sad. Seriously - how do you deal with that?

[RealityRules]

... tell the kids I'm going to hell and that it's all very sad. Seriously - how do you deal with that?

Perhaps get in first and talk generally to the kids about the variety of belief systems and eventually the uncertainty of hell; then talk to hubby about how you can't believe, or can't rationalise belief; or not denigrating you to the kids because you can't believe.

Use terms that may invoke empathy?? - e.g. God has not revealed himself to you, etc. If he's a Calvanist put it in predestination terms??

Medium term strategies to generally and slowly diffuse, or to set up to diffuse the impact ???

[Bolero]

I think getting to the kids first is something he's already done - he's planted the whole "god-concept" in their heads, and it's lodged there for the moment.

The thing working in my favour is an extended network of friends and family who are almost entirely atheists. At least he's an aberration!

[riddlemethis]

Bolero, if things are otherwise good, then I'd simply lead by example. Never say a bad word about their Dad, if they raise ridiculous things like you being destined for hell, just smile & reassure them you are certain that isn't true & that people can be good even when they believe different things. The problem hubby faces is that anything horrible he says about you will be demostrably untrue as evidenced by being a good mother to your kids. If they say they're worried about you (your salvation) just tell them all they need to concentrate on is that you love them & are good to them & you've done a very good job so far of looking after yourself too.

If he says things that distress them, then talk to him, but kill him with compassion & empathy in confronting it. I know you're concerned for me, but show me how I am living a bad life? Am I really a bad person/mother/wife in your eyes b/c I don't believe what you do? I'm worried about the kids being told I will be tortured at some point, it's such an adult concept that they can't see will never impact their young lives.

In the end I think it will be up to him whether religion or your family is more important to him. It's a sadly difficult situation & I hope one day he'll see what's staring him in the face - the loving acceptance of another human being, a condition that his religion tells him is off limits to him.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

To add to what riddlemethis said, if he is the loving and compassionate person you say he is, show him that he can also be good without his faith.

[wolty]

The problem hubby faces is that anything horrible he says about you will be demostrably untrue as evidenced by being a good mother to your kids. If they say they're worried about you (your salvation) just tell them all they need to concentrate on is that you love them & are good to them & you've done a very good job so far of looking after yourself too.


This bit may actually make the children ask the question of him about how could mum be a such a good person and still be destined for hell.

[Seamus]

To be blunt: You've had counseling? Didn't seem to actually change anything.


OK you've accepted his right to his beliefs, extending to your children? He does not seem to be wiling or able to accept your lack of belief and is probably incapable of changing. You have no control over his behaviour,only over yours. That works both ways. YOUR feelings and your views are AS important as his, especially in the care and teaching of your children. His dogmatic beliefs do not neutralise or remove your world view nor your rights as a mother or a person.

Do you love your husband and want to stay in the marriage? If not, leave now with your children.

If you love your husband and want your marriage to survive is you who will probably have to change. He won't.His lack of acceptance and respect for you an your life position does not bode well.

[RealityRules]

The thing working in my favour is an extended network of friends and family who are almost entirely atheists.

Cool. Depending on the kids' ages, perhaps you can occasionally talk about the golden Rule in general, and being good in general, etc without reference to religious notions of them.

[Annie]

I have really been trying to bite my tongue on this thread. I agree wholeheartedly with Seamus. I raised two kids on my own and they and I are far better off because of it. If the issue was football teams or something trivial, it's a different story but the issue facing you Bolero is huge. You and your husband are poles apart. His gain is at your expense and that is a huge price to pay. A price I wasn't prepared to pay. My parents also had similar differences, mum a smorgasbord catholic, dad a fundie. We also had a friends who were nonreligious but what really matters is the day to day snipes and barbs that are hurled behind closed doors. As a child I wanted mum to leave him. I even told her so. Her reply was always that she was staying there for the kids. in hindsight now, she wishes she did. On reflection, I am glad I had the courage to leave my marriage and remove my kids from a house filled with tension. I am sorry that my mum lives with the regret of not having done so too. But that's just my story.