Unapproved religious teaching materials promoted in EQ school

[djarm67]

Hi All,

You may find this little exchange involving Education Queensland interesting. This is the latest contact. Please feel free to critique or provide any pointers as I attempt to have Queensland Schools follow their own rules. (Names *** out at this point)

-------------------------


Hi ****,


Thank you for taking the time to discuss my concerns on the recent events which I described to you. Here is a more comprehensive outline of them.


A few weeks ago my son brought home a New Testament, Psalms and Proverbs collection published and distributed by the Gideons International Society. I found this somewhat perplexing as I had not given express permission for my son to be included in any religious education. I felt that this was my right as a parent in choosing to send my children to a secular school. I questioned him as to where he got this and he mentioned that someone came around to all of the children and handed them out. Initially thinking that this may have been an unauthorised attempt by a religious institution to disseminate their particular religious doctrines to unsuspecting children, my son dispelled this notion by stating that the person in question was being escorted around the campus by the principal. Upon further investigation of the materials I quickly realised that this was not simply a collection of new and Old Testament books from the bible but included various points of interpretation of those scriptures which therefore constituted a “doctrine” which included statements such as,



“The Bible of which this New Testament is part deals with every experience in the life of man.”



“The Gideons is an association of Christian business and professional men, who believe the Bible to be the inspired Word of God.”


There is also an index to point people to particular scriptures which their particular doctrine dictates are the correct ones to review regarding a whole host of topics. Of particular note however, is the end of the book which includes a series of subject headings (which are printed in the largest font to be found in the entire publication) declaring that,


“All are Sinners” and that “the wages of sin is death”. Not to worry however as “All may be saved now”.


This is then followed by a scripted confession where you are to accept a Lord and Saviour followed by a contract where you are to sign and date your acceptance.


My disapproval of this practice exists on many levels to say the least. Upon investigating this organisation (Gideons), it is clear that they are not representative of all Christianity and therefore all of their particular teachings on this are doctrinal. A cursory examination of the society’s own FAQ http://www.gideons.org/FAQ/FAQ.aspx reveals a number of disturbing things. Firstly, it is quite clear that they are not teaching a universal view amongst Christians with the statement “The Gideons International is an association that works with Protestant/evangelical churches.” Protestant evangelicals are a tiny fraction of the overall Christian faith and they are even further marginalised with the statement “The Bible is the inspired, infallible, inerrant Word of God.”. This puts them at the extreme fundamentalist end of the Christian faith spectrum. To put things clearly into context, this group of fundamentalist evangelicals adherence to inerrant literalism is something that they have in common with those who still believe that the Earth is flat despite all evidence to the contrary, the Earth is the centre of the solar system (geocentrism) or that the universe is less than 10,000 years old (again despite all evidence to the contrary). Another notable observation is the eligibility requirements to become a member of this organisation.

“Who is eligible to join The Gideons?

Generally, Christian businessmen and professional men age 21 and older (or retired businessmen and professional men) who adhere to the core spiritual beliefs held by Gideons are eligible to join The Gideons International.”


Do you notice that only “men” are eligible to become members? Whilst this type of misogynistic criteria is in line with a fundamentalist view of biblical literalism, it is a long way out of step with the values exhibited in a modern secular society. I don’t really have to wonder as to their views regarding homosexuality or slavery as it is quite clear when I take a literal and inerrant reading of this little book in my hand.


To further complicate the issue, my son’s best friend who was also given a copy of this book which includes their narrow doctrinal interpretation, is a Muslim. His friend has since left the school. I’m unsure if this incident had any connection with his leaving. I do know however, that many Muslims are highly offended by the activities of fundamentalist evangelical Christians as many Muslim sects have extreme penalties for apostasy (which is what the Gideons are advocating by evangelising to a Muslim).



In light of this, I took it upon myself to contact the school to find out further details as to how widespread the practice of allowing religious organisations of all faiths to have access to my children without my knowledge or express approval. I received a call back from ****** ********* (deputy principal I believe).


I found this to be an interesting but also disturbing conversation. Firstly, this Gideons situation is allowed to occur each year. What is the rationale behind the reason? The first was that it’s always been allowed every year and has occurred for 150 years (despite the society itself only forming in 1899 and not to mention the far more recent establishment of ******* *******). This criterion is not acceptable. This is akin to the rationale to burn Galileo at the stake because he wouldn’t recant his observations on a heliocentric solar system when everyone had always “known” that everything revolved around the Earth and that is what we’ve always taught. I raised my concerns regarding what else will my child be exposed to without my knowledge or approval, the Koran, the Bhagavad Gita or the Tibetan book of the dead? Alternatively, am I able to come onto school grounds, be escorted around by the principal and hand out excerpts from the Satanic Bible, a book on witchcraft, scientology or pages from the God Delusion? I was then fed the line that there was no teaching involved at all with the handing out of these publications and that the children were not required to take them, they were simply offered. This line of argument has a huge problem, the fact that the materials themselves contain specific doctrinal interpretations. I.e. The materials themselves are not universally accepted by all 38,000+ denominations of Christianity but only a very narrow subset of fundamentalist evangelical Protestantism.


The second rationale for this incident was that “we were founded as a Christian nation”. Whilst I hear this repeated incessantly amongst extremist right wing circles, this statement completely dismisses approximately 60,000 years of traditional indigenous heritage (which incidentally is approximately ten times greater than the many fundamentalist evangelical protestants think is the age of the universe) it also flies in the face of the Australian constitution Section 116 “The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office of public trust under the Commonwealth”. Of particular note would also be that our head of state, the Queen (who is the head of the Church of England) would not only be ineligible to be a member of the Gideon society (along with the vast majority of Christians) as a result of not being a fundamentalist evangelical protestant, but would be ineligible along with approximately 50% of the population of the planet Earth due to her lack of a penis. Why a penis is so important to being admitted to their religious society is not fully explained on their website. However, it would be interesting to know how they actually confirm that a new applicant is truly eligible for membership.


I then requested the details of the criteria for including or excluding any religious institution or philosophical society from access to hand out their materials on campus. I received your contact details in an email from principal **** *****.


In short, I feel that a number of policies may not been adhered to regarding this incident.



The materials themselves promote a particular and narrow doctrinal interpretation of Christianity. The Education (General Provisions) Act 2006 (Qld) Chapter 5 Section 76 (4) states, “Instruction of a kind mentioned in subsection (2) is not to include any teaching in the distinctive tenets or doctrines of any religious denomination, society or sect”. The materials distributed clearly violate this section of the Act. They promote a narrow and distinctive tenet or doctrine in line with a small minority viewpoint within the entire scope of Christian denominations. I would suggest that if these materials are to be used in an authorised religious class, the sections at the front and end of the materials will need to be removed for the materials to comply with this section of the Act.

(cont)

[djarm67]

(Part 2)

My written consent was not given prior to my son being presented with these materials which include distinctive tenets or doctrines of this religious denomination, society or sect. This appears to be in violation of Education (General Provisions) Regulation 2006 (Qld) Part 5 (29)(1) “The principal of a State school must not allow a student to attend religious instruction given by a minister of religion or an accredited representative other than the denomination or society of which the student is a member, unless the student’s parent has given written consent.” My suggestion here is that a clear direction from the department to all schools needs to be issued which makes it clear that unless express written consent is given, children are not to be exposed to the particular doctrines of religious teachings. In addition, as there are over 38,000 denominations of Christianity alone, greater clarification needs to be made at a doctrinal level to ensure that a doctrine of one denomination of a particular religion is not taught to the child of a member of another denomination. E.g. simply ticking a box marked “Christian” is not enough as the regulation is quite clear on differentiation at a denominational level.


I believe that even the act of leaving these materials containing the additional doctrinal teachings on premises could be in violation of Education (General Provisions) Regulation 2006 (Qld) Part 5 (30)(2) “A minister of religion or accredited representative must not leave on State school premises any denominational or society publication used by the minister of religion or accredited representative for religious instruction.” I’m unsure as to the accreditation of the distributor of the materials. Not only were these materials which include doctrinal teaching brought onto school premises, they were handed out to the children. I would suggest that all religious based materials be approved by the department in accordance with the regulations “prior” to them being allowed on school premises and some type of auditing process instituted to ensure that such materials are not left on premises.



A further complication occurs where a student has received these materials containing the additional doctrinal teachings, takes them home and the parents who have not approved of the attempted indoctrination, wish to have them returned. Education (General Provisions) Regulation 2006 (Qld) Part 5 (30)(1) states that, "A person other than a minister of religion or accredited representative must not bring onto, or use on, State school premises any denominational or society publication.". This means that my son would not be able to bring the offending material back onto school premises for the purpose of returning it as he is not a minister of religion or accredited representative of the Gideons society. In fact he is ineligible to be one as he is under 21 and not a member of a fundamentalist evangelical protestant church. I myself as the parent, would not be able to bring the offending materials onto school premises for the purposes of returning them for a similar reason (except for the age restriction). If it had been one of my daughters who had received the offending materials, she would be faced with the added exclusionary provision of the abscence of a penis to make her eligible to be able to return the materials. This situation would obviously not arise if the regulations and various Acts were followed whereby parents had to give express written consent (at a religious denominational level) prior to any religious materials being offerred to students.



It is this most important impact that my role as a parent has been subverted when this activity was approved without my express permission. I would have no issue if the handing out of this doctrinal teaching within the provided materials had occurred as part of a comparative religion class in which I had approved the attendance of my child, but it was completely unsolicited and without my knowledge. In viewing the Commission for Children and Young People and Child Guardian Act 2000 Part 2 Sect 6, a number of issues arise. (2)(a) every child is a valued member of society; and (2)(c)(i) every child is entitled to be treated in a way that respects the child’s dignity and privacy.


These two clauses are in direct opposition to the notion that “all are sinners” and “the wages of sin is death”.


The potential damage to a child’s self esteem and feelings of value and self worth via the promotion of these notions of sin, failure, and unworthiness are high if left unaddressed. I would recommend either removing this practice or alternatively, including such visits by promoters of such notions as a health and safety incident in its own right.


Section (2)(d) of the act, clearly states, “the family has the primary responsibility for the upbringing and development of its children, and should be supported in that role.”

The actions which have occurred without my approval, clearly remove the parent from having “primary responsibility” for “upbringing and development” of my child. I would suggest that a policy reminder be sent out to all EQ schools outlining that this practice (whilst it may have occurred in the past) cannot occur without express written approval by the parent.

Finally, the concept of presenting my child with materials which include a confessional contract which they sign and date to confirm their subservience to a religious deity I find disgraceful and feel that this has dramatically overstepped the boundary of what the school should allow in this secular and multicultural society.

Thanks for your consideration. I look forward to your response.

*******

[BlueDevil]

A comprehensive and well worded letter. Thanks for sharing it with us.

[djarm67]

Very comprehensively presented, Djarm.

Please keep us posted.

I presume you have no objection to others with similar objections basing correspondence on yours?

No objection whatsoever.

DJ

[66 vegie]

I need you on my team ( problem's with the Anglicans at my son's school.). A wonderful well written letter and you should be proud of your accomplishments.

[simonecuttlefish]

Beautifully put.

[Loki]

So, any response?

[wolty]

Wow Dj. Very impressive.

[Centauri]

A superb letter, I'm in agreement all the way.

[djarm67]

Thanks for the encouraging comments. I would expect that with the holidays, it may take some time for the department to respond. I would much rather they take a reasonable amount of time and rectify this situation permanently than give me a quick, kneejerk response which harbours no teeth in dealing with offenders moving forward. I'll update you all when I get more information.

DJ

[Deanus-Maximus]

+1 to all above posts DJ, a very well written letter. Having previously worked in the records management area of EQ a few years back I was privvy to many a correspondence to the higher ups. Very few had the quality of structure and information as yours so I personally think it'll get noticed, a long way up. My congratulations to you for putting the thought and effort in to this and I hope that you, and by extension all public school children, get a suitable resolution to this.

[bruce1937]

Top stuff. I am both appalled by the situation and impressed by your response. I look forward to hearing of the departments actions, if any, regarding this matter.

[Logic please]

Well done DJ, look forward to seeing their response, if it can be posted. :)

[Coryate]

What next, If you don't hear anything?

[djarm67]

What next, If you don't hear anything?

If I don't get a response by mid Jan, I will recontact for an update.

I will continue to escalate this as far as I can up the chain if at any point I am unsatisfied with any proposed resolution. I don't see that they have a leg to stand on.

[abbafreak]

Hi,

I've a fair bit of experience in the Qld public service. Might I make a couple of general suggestions? Should you not receive a response in a timely fashion I would suggest that you write to your local member - not the minister for education. If you write to the minister for ed you will get a standard response that will say the matter has been referred to the school for response.

If you write to your member (who I assume is not the minister for education) then he/she will require a response from the minister for education ) this then gets a couple of staffers on the job. If you put additional weight on both the multi-culti aspects and the discrimination issue this then chucks Palaszczuk and Struthers in on the act as someone from each department will be required to respond.

What this means is that you should get a response tailored to the questions you ask - not just the standard response. Can't vouch for the quality of the response though.

Anyway, good luck.

[djarm67]

Thanks. My approach may likely be a multi-pronged one in the case of no reply.

DJ

[DanDare]

Here is an email exchange I had with the principle at my daughter's school in 2009.
2009/06/01

Dear xxxx,

this is a formal complaint from me as a parent at xxxxxx.

On 27/05/2009 xxxxxx accompanied four unidentified older gentlemen
into the school atrium. These men began giving away free bibles and telling
the kids to bring their friends to get one. Then later that day these men
went from class to class, interrupting lessons and giving away bibles. No
parent consent was sought, no parent was notified that this activity was to
take place. I consider this a serious breach of the schools protocol
regarding the schools responsibility to the parents and duty of care. Given
the sensitivity aroused by the presence of a school Chaplain I would have
thought the school would know better than to allow religious zealots access
to our children, prosletysing a specific religion, Christianity.

I expect a complete apology from the school, in writing, and an
acknowledgement that this was highly inappropriate, and assurance that it
will never happen again.

Yours Sincerely

Daniel Stevens

----------------
2009/06/02

Good morning Danny, I acknowledge your complaint. The event that you
describe is the annual visit to state schools by members of the Gideon
society. I have spoken to xxxxx and on the basis of this
conversation I don't believe that some of your points are valid criticisms.
Also, I am in the process of checking the status of the Gideons in relation
to Education Queensland but I believe that I am accurate in saying that they
would visit the very large majority of Queensland secondary schools and
distribute bibles to students. Rather than talk to you about what I believe
I will confirm with EQ their position and relate this to you. When I have
this information I will contact you and I would think we could have a face
to face chat in relation to this matter. One thing I do know is that since
I began my teaching career some 33 years ago, the Gideons have visited the
schools that I have been in and on most occasions spoken on assembly and
then distributed bibles to students who wish to take one. I understand your
objection Danny and I will investigate. It may take a couple of days to get
the information that I wish to access for you so I ask that you give me this
time to get back to you. Kind regards, xxxxx

-----------------
2009/06/26

Good afternoon Danny, I wanted to let you know that I am still
investigating the permission around the visit by the Gideon Society to this
College about which you made a complaint. As I mentioned previously I think
that members of the Gideon Society would in fact visit potentially all State
schools in Queensland and "distribute" bibles. Further, I understand that
the permission that they have from Education Queensland is in relation to
the "offer" of religious material to students. I am still investigating
this issue because I now have a personal wish to know the basis for the
permission. I will contact you again about this matter after the holidays.

Kind regards, xxxx

We had follow up conversations face to face. Nothing came of it and they continue to visit every year.

Its time for this to stop.

As well as individual action how can we network parents in state schools so they can oppose this sort of stuff as a block. The schools do their utmost to keep us apart. I tried many times to connect with parents via the school magazine or the P&C. Unfortunately the P&C was controlled largely by fundies and school admin would not allow me to use the mag.

[Centauri]

Wow, this completely sucks. What if the Scientologists visited the school to hand out information to kids? What would the school think of that? Or a bunch of Muslims, trying to convert the children from christian to islam? I bet they'd object to that.

[simonecuttlefish]

I wonder if you made a series of "Hitchins for Kids" books and walked around schools handing them out. Topics like

Christianity is a mental illness
Jesus never existed
God is a fairy tale for grown ups
People who tell you about Easter are monsters that try to frighten children

I wonder a) How much trouble you would get in, and b) How fast something would be done nationally about it, especially if you had a group of about 100 people doing it all in the same day nationally :)

[Sieveboy]

I wonder if you made a series of "Hitchins for Kids" books and walked around schools handing them out. Topics like

Christianity is a mental illness
Jesus never existed
God is a fairy tale for grown ups
People who tell you about Easter are monster that try to frighten children

I wonder a) How much trouble you would get in, and b) How fast something would be done nationally about it, especially if you had a group of about 100 people doing it all in the same day nationally :)

Oh, the Schadenfruede (ok spelling may not be right there) would be awesome. Sounds like something the Chaser or John Saffron would do.

[simonecuttlefish]

Oh, the Schadenfruede (ok spelling may not be right there) would be awesome. Sounds like something the Chaser or John Saffron would do.

Sounds like something I've seriously considered and thought about the material for here actually :) I even considered mass drops at bus stop drive bys :) But that would be VERY VERY naughty. Odd though, liars for god get away with it, and they are actually damaging the kids, not helping them :)

[Logic please]

Sounds like something I've seriously considered and thought about the material for here actually :) I even considered mass drops at bus stop drive bys :) But that would be VERY VERY naughty. Odd though, liars for god get away with it, and they are actually damaging the kids, not helping them :) (my bolding)
So, what's the argument against doing it, then? ;):D

[simonecuttlefish]

So, what's the argument against doing it, then? ;):D

Well, there are a few.

I would be concerned about the hypocritical position of being outraged at children being given materials designed to potentially alter their perspectives without parental consent, and then attempt to counter it by doing the same. What 'right' would I claim to attempt the imposition of my position on other peoples kids, without the consent of the parents? I don't think of this as purely a "hypocritical" position either, but an ethical and dare I say 'moral' nightmare as well. There is much opportunity to cause emotional distress in the children and/or their parents. I could never make a bloody minded claim to have the 'right' to do so.

I have no doubt that there are many legal problems as well. Being on school grounds without consent is, I'm guessing, not legally acceptable. Same with school bus stop drops; trespass?

It is fun to muse about activism, but going through with it, especially when it is potentially very destructive to the very cause you are trying to promote, is both stupid and irresponsible, in my opinion. Trying to access other peoples children for the purpose of 'indoctrination' is just plain creepy in my opinion. Still, there was the school fete and sports carnival ......... never mind. :)

[simonecuttlefish]

@SC: Being close to a school without good reason (and this will be interpreted selectivley by plods and authorities) equals trouble.

I would advise against it.

There are other means...

Oh god yes, it was a 'fantasy' idea, and hopefully I have made it clear I think it would be just plain wrong, for a lot more than just legal reasons. It's not a plan, nor ever should be, for at least the reasons I mentioned above, and a lot more I have no doubt. Sorry if anyone thought it was a "cunning plan", as I hopefully defined it earlier as an appalling idea instead. Can't be too careful though. Perhaps I should not have even mentioned it. Things can be so horribly misquoted by those who wish to, and conspiracy theorists are always on the lookout for a new 'wave of attack plans' :)

[Sieveboy]

Oh god yes, it was a 'fantasy' idea, and hopefully I have made it clear I think it would be just plain wrong, for a lot more than just legal reasons. It's not a plan, nor ever should be, for at least the reasons I mentioned above, and a lot more I have no doubt. Sorry if anyone thought it was a "cunning plan", as I hopefully defined it earlier as an "appalling idea" instead. Can't be too careful though. Perhaps I should not have even mentioned it. Things can be so horribly misquoted by those who wish to, and conspiracy theorists are always on the lookout for a new 'wave of attack plans' :)

Hopefully people realise when I suggested that the Chaser or John Safran would do this, that they realise it is not a what we would do. Otherwise I think your correct SCF, we shouldn't sink to the same moral or ethical level as the Gideons.

[cyclist]

It would be more interesting to see how the school would react if an imam showed up on the schools doorstep and asked to be give the same access to the students as the gideons are given.

I suspect that would cause an uproar.

A similar thing happened in the US as mentioned on the Atheist Experience

cjw6fVYJA1o

The rant starts at about 1:30 in.

James

[DanDare]

How about this:

Create a booklet about what is incorrect, self contradictory or immoral in the bible aimed at kid level, use the little, red Gideon bible as the exemplar. Then we go to the principles at all schools where the Gideons hand out bibles and ask for the same privilege, filming the interview.

We then put all the rejections together into a you tube video and make a mass submission to the state premier suggesting that the Gideons or anyone like them should be banned from doing what they do..

[simonecuttlefish]

How about this:

Create a booklet about what is incorrect, self contradictory or immoral in the bible aimed at kid level, use the little, red Gideon bible as the exemplar. Then we go to the principles at all schools where the Gideons hand out bibles and ask for the same privilege, filming the interview.

We then put all the rejections together into a you tube video and make a mass submission to the state premier suggesting that the Gideons or anyone like them should be banned from doing what they do..

Dan I love it - the thing that totally galls me, as in the spirit of the original post, is that these people seem to be operating both 'outside the law', and 'with permission' at the same time. If the laws are plain, than what justification is there for a principal to 'allow' or 'override' these laws? Like seriously, WFT??!!??!?

[mickp]

How about this:

Create a booklet about what is incorrect, self contradictory or immoral in the bible aimed at kid level, use the little, red Gideon bible as the exemplar. Then we go to the principles at all schools where the Gideons hand out bibles and ask for the same privilege, filming the interview.

We then put all the rejections together into a you tube video and make a mass submission to the state premier suggesting that the Gideons or anyone like them should be banned from doing what they do..

Aye. I've suggested (in previous discussions with SC) that we might make a showbag for parents on the evils of the bible. SC's graphic design skills would be brought into play of course :)

http://www.daleks-of-god.net/reliquary/2010-12-24%2022-02-18.656.jpg
Matthew 2:13-18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+2%3A13-18&version=NIV)

I reckon that a group of activist atheists delivering sample bags and begging parents to withdraw their children from SRE could do some good and more importantly would be a great news story that no network could ignore. I reckon Today Tonight and A Current Affair would be beating a path to David's door to find out what was so objectionable about SRE, especially if teh ACL was telling bleating on at them how god dammned awful it was.

Whaddya rekkon?

Mick.

[mickp]

I think we've got to get Ms Cuttlefish's Children's Bible site up very soon.

Heh. Wait till you see The martyrdom of St Peter :) A masterpiece.

Mick.

[simonecuttlefish]

I think we've got to get Ms Cuttlefish's Children's Bible site up very soon.


DOCTOR Ms Cuttlefish ... thanks

[mickp]

I think we've got to get Ms Cuttlefish's Children's Bible site up very soon.

Aye. I think this is achievable. Reckon we should get a team together sometime.

Mick.

PS: I was just commenting that a friend's kid recently did a sand picture thing for us when we visited the local markets. A yaweh based horror pic with red sand etc would be an excellent inclusion in the showbag :)

Mick.

[Sieveboy]

This will be fantastic.

Can there be a calendar as well?

Maybe we could sell it on this website, next to the remains of Gavin Sinclairs book?

[mickp]

Here's one I prepared earleir...

Aye. I once had a joho tell me about this configuration. Not that I was asking mind.

Mick.

[Logic please]

Well, there are a few.

I would be concerned about the hypocritical position of being outraged at children being given materials designed to potentially alter their perspectives without parental consent, and then attempt to counter it by doing the same. What 'right' would I claim to attempt the imposition of my position on other peoples kids, without the consent of the parents? I don't think of this as purely a "hypocritical" position either, but an ethical and dare I say 'moral' nightmare as well. There is much opportunity to cause emotional distress in the children and/or their parents. I could never make a bloody minded claim to have the 'right' to do so.

I have no doubt that there are many legal problems as well. Being on school grounds without consent is, I'm guessing, not legally acceptable. Same with school bus stop drops; trespass?

It is fun to muse about activism, but going through with it, especially when it is potentially very destructive to the very cause you are trying to promote, is both stupid and irresponsible, in my opinion. Trying to access other peoples children for the purpose of 'indoctrination' is just plain creepy in my opinion. Still, there was the school fete and sports carnival ......... never mind. :)
Thanks for your excellent reply simone.... :) luckily I had my tongue firmly in my cheek when I posted my one-liner ;):D

[mickp]

Thanks for your excellent reply simone.... luckily I had my tongue firmly in my cheek when I posted my one-liner ;):D

So what about the martyrdom of st peter then!!!1! Does that mean nothing to you?

http://www.daleks-of-god.net/afa/st-peter.jpg

Hope not :)

Mick.

[DanDare]

Dan I love it - the thing that totally galls me, as in the spirit of the original post, is that these people seem to be operating both 'outside the law', and 'with permission' at the same time. If the laws are plain, than what justification is there for a principal to 'allow' or 'override' these laws? Like seriously, WFT??!!??!?
Its a common practice, just like the chaplain stuff. Create rules that make it acceptable to the gullible numbnuts in parliament, you know "opt-in", no proselytising, no activity that requires a qualified councillor. Then when you have your agents in place disobey those rules. When people complain deny everything and point to the rules and mutter something about "some individuals may be doing the wrong thing".

[djarm67]

Update

17/01/2001 Me to DETA (Department of Education and Training)

Hi ****,

Would I be able to get an update as to the status of this complaint?

Thanks

DJ

--------------------------

17/01/2011 DETA to Me

I have forwarded your complaint to our ******* office to follow up as that is where ******* is supervised from. As there has been nobody at the school until this week it will now be progressed to them for comment and you will receive a response in due course. Please contact me if you need anything further.
Regards
****


--------------------------

17/01/2011 Me to DETA

Thanks ****

DJ

[djarm67]

Update

31/01/2001 Me to DETA (Department of Education and Training)

Hi ****,

It's 2 weeks since we last touched base. Do you have any update on the resolution of this issue?
In addition, if there is no change in progress on the resolution of this issue over the next 14 days, what is the process for escalating this issue?
Thanks

DJ

--------------------------------

03/02/2011 DETA to Me


I understand that you have been communicating with **** ***** at our
****** office regarding the above issue. **** has forwarded your
concerns on to me as ******* ******* falls within the sub-region of
schools managed by **** *******, Assistant Regional Director, and
assited by myself.
I will need to discuss your concerns with my supervisor and the Prinipal
of ******* ******* , **** *****, and will contact you again shortly.

Regards
***** *****
Principal Advisor Education Services
***** **** Region | Department of Education and Training.

---------------------------------------

03/02/2011 Me to DETA

Thanks ***** and ****

DJ

[Mentally Saturated]

It appears that the wheels of progress are accelerating.. very slowly at first, of course.

Then again, looks can be deceiving. Let's hope if that's the case, then the deceit isn't deliberate. But I get the feeling you're about to get the first volley of buck-passing and all other manner of responsibility dodging.

We watch with interest, djarm. Here's hoping for a good result.

Gary

[DanDare]

But I get the feeling you're about to get the first volley of buck-passing and all other manner of responsibility dodging.
TFT. Do you have any allies who might start contributing letters in support of yours?

[Reasonathe]

Dear DJARM,

thank you for sharing your experience and your excellent letter!
You have my full sympathy and support.

I guess, many will be following to find out how the 'worm will squirm' in the attempt to hold on to the promotion of norms, that happen to be the unifier of one of many "tribes of the superstitious".

Cheers, R

[djarm67]

Update

14/02/2011 DETA to Me

Hello *****

Thank you again for bringing your concerns to our attention.


While Queensland State schools embrace a multitude of cultural, religious and non-religous beliefs and encourage students to grow and develop values and attitudes, the Department aims to ensure that schools respect the background and beliefs of all students by not promoting, or being perceived as promoting, any particular set of beliefs in preference to another.


Your knowledge of the legislation around religous instruction in school hours is well informed, and I appreciate you raising concerns around the bringing and leaving of denominational or society publications on State school premisies.


I have discussed your concerns with my supervisor **** *******, Assistant Regional Director, and, as you suggest, we are now in the process of providing key policy reminders to Principals within the Region. I have also informed **** *****, Executive Principal, and ****** *********, Deputy Principal, of the legislation around religous instruction.


Thank you for your interest in the welfare of all students at ******* ******* and your determination to support their achievement of quality educational outcomes.


Regards


***** *****


----------------------

14/02/2011 Me to DETA

Hi *****,

Thank you for your prompt actions on this matter.

As this issue has been front of mind with me for almost 3 months, I have during this period encountered many other parents who have experienced similar issues and have similar concerns from not just this region but indications are that this issue is endemic on a state-wide basis.

Can I confirm if the policy reminders will be communicated to all EQ schools or only those schools in your region, leaving many other families outside of your region facing the exact same scenario? Does this issue need to be escalated to ensure that this issue is resolved consistently on a state-wide basis?

Can I confirm that the Gideons Society will no longer be able to provide any materials or religious instruction to students outside of a specifically defined religious instruction class, where and only where parents or care givers have given explicit written approval for instruction in a denomination of "fundamentalist evangelical protestant Christianity" or "Gideon's Christianity"?

Can I get clarification on the department's position on allowing access (and thereby promoting) to EQ schools by a society whose core tenants include discrimination against women? Is this a concern to the department or is there tacit approval because this discriminatory practice is hidden under a veil of religious observance?

Can I also be provided with copies of the "key policy reminders" which are being / to be provided to the principals?

Thank you once again for your prompt actions on this matter. I look forward to it's finalisation.

DJ

[Centauri]

Keep up the good fight.

[BlueDevil]

Great news that some action is being taken. I think your follow up letter was a great idea as well.

Keep it up!

[Freethinker]

We had the religious come to a Government school and hand out free pocket bibles. Some years ago now, I still have mine. It seems that the religious love to indoctrinate children. The schools I've been at always have chaplaincy programs, these are Public schools. We are falling behind in Science education, no wonder, it seems bronze age myths get more funding.

[djarm67]

Update

24/02/11 Me to DETA

Hi *****,

Could you please provide me with the contact details of the Central Office personnel who will now be handling this issue?

Thanks

DJ

----------

21/02/11 Me to DETA

Thanks *****,

Could you give me the contact details of the Central Office personnel who will now be handling this issue?

DJ

----------

21/02/11 DETA to Me

Hi *****


I understand your concerns around the consistency across the state with regard to policies relating to religious instruction in school hours. As you are aware, the Department of Education and Training manages schools across Regions, and as such, the jurisdiction of our Regional Directors and Assistant Regional Directors lies solely within their Region. I will therefore forward your concerns to our Cental Office personel who are in a better position to address issues at a state-wide level.

I can assure you that key policy reminders to principals across our Region , as mentioned in my earlier email , is in progress. I hope you can appreciate that I am unable to provide you with copies of internal departmental correspondence.

Once again, I thank you for expressing your interest in the welfare and achievement of all students.

Regards
*****

[bruce1937]

So they have not yet been forwarded, just left to gather dust and hope the problem goes away perhaps?

[DanDare]

Big non answer.

[RealityRules]

As you are aware, the Department of Education and Training manages schools across Regions, and as such, the jurisdiction of our Regional Directors and Assistant Regional Directors lies solely within their Region.

I will therefore forward your concerns to our Cental Office personel [sic] who are in a better position to address issues at a state-wide level.

I can assure you that key policy reminders to principals across our Region , as mentioned in my earlier email, is in progress.

The correspondent seems to be doing the right thing within the beaurocracy.

It would good to get the contact details of the "Central Office personnel" to follow up with them, too. Ask the person you are corresponding with for those details, yet also seek them independently.

This -

I hope you can appreciate that I am unable to provide you with copies of internal departmental correspondence.

- is crap. They are a public service organisation and they answer to the public. They should be proud to show they are doing the right thing, even in situations like this where there are customers/clients (i.e. parents) and individual service providers (principals, teachers, including community RE providers) with diverse views.

It would be appropriate the use freedom on information legislation to seek "copies of [that] internal departmental correspondence", and to tell them you would like to do so or will do so.

Keep the bastards honest!

[Seamus]

djarma

(1) Complain to the Ombudsman about their obfuscation and delaying tactics; that's within his rather broad brief, which is to investigate complaints of "mal adminstration".The ombudsman has no direct power,but reports to parliament. Governnment funcionaries at all levels are afraid of him.

(2) It's quite true that no government department makes its internal correspondence and policy freely available,even to other departments.---- yes, apply for what you want under Freedom Of Information.Doesn't mean you will get what you want,but it will annoy them. The FOI Act is about justice being seen to be done, not actually BEING done; all kinds of shit will be redacted. "Open,transparent and honest government" is an oxymoron.

(3) The decisions AND policies of ALL federal government departments are subject to appeal to the "Administrative Appeals Tribunal"-THAT has teeth.It can for example declare a policy unlawful and have abolished or changed. Of course the government usually then just changes the law.




The country is not run by Jim Hacker, it is run by Sir Humphrey Appleby.

00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000

When the incumbent monarch was crowned,along with every other child in Australia, I got a 'free' New Testament.

Of course it wasn't free at all,unless Liz Windsor actually paid for them from her privy purse.(does that mean she keeps it in the toilet?)

Be willing to bet Menzies thought Bibles would be a spiffing idea,and took the money from general revenue.

[djarm67]

Update

25/02 /11 Me to DETA

Hi *****,

Thank you once again for all your assistance. You have been most helpful.

In regards to the previous rejection of my request for a copy of the generic internal departmental correspondence in relation to key policy reminders relating to this issue which have been sent to all schools in your region, do you have the relevant "document reference numbers"? It will assist me in submitting my "Right to information and information privacy access application" as per "Right to information Act 2009 (section 24)" and "Information privacy Act 2009 (section 43). Alternatively, if these internal correspondence directives do not have document reference numbers, could you let me know the formats, dates, source and destination (e.g. email, 14/02/11, ************, list of schools)

Thanks once again.

DJ
------------------------
25/02/11 DETA to Me

Hi *****,

Apologies for the delay in my response; I have been in and out of the office over the last few days.

I have made informal contact with Central Office regarding you request to make contact with them. They have advised me that all external correspondence with Central Office occurs formally, via the Minister's Office. You can direct your concerns to:

Minister's Office
Department of Education and Training
PO Box 15033
City East QLD 4002

We have recently had a Minister change, so your letter should be addressed to: The Honourable Cameron Dick, MP.

Regards

*****

[RealityRules]

Update: 25/02 /11 Me to DETA

Hi *****,

... do you have the relevant "document reference numbers"? ....[or] the formats, dates, source and destination (e.g. email, 14/02/11, ******, list of schools)
Well done, djarm67 !!


(1) Complain to the Ombudsman ... to investigate complaints of "mal administration".

(2)... apply for what you want under Freedom Of Information. Doesn't mean you will get what you want, but it will annoy them. The FOI Act is about justice being seen to be done, ...

(3)... appeal to the "Administrative Appeals Tribunal"-THAT has teeth. It can for example declare a policy unlawful and have abolished or changed. Of course the government usually then just changes the law.

Good calls.

Generally, has anyone appealed to the "Administrative Appeals Tribunal" over school chaplains or RE in schools?

[Craftycarp]

I wonder if it might be good for someone here, or the AFA, to provide letter templates for people wanting to draw attention to the issues in state schools around the country?

Mainly this would included quoting the state legislation, pointing out where the legislation is being ignored and requesting the situation be rectified. Parents could copy and paste the relevant sections into a letter, add the details applicable to their school and send it off to regional heads.

I think that some people at certain levels are happy to force principals to comply, but they're afraid to without adequate back-up in the form of letters from parents and clear references to law and policy. They don't seem to have the time or political guts otherwise.

[DanDare]

Of course the new minister is as bad as the old.
http://www.cabinet.qld.gov.au/MMS/StatementDisplaySingle.aspx?id=73550

Joint Statement:Minister for Education and Training
The Honourable Geoff Wilson
Attorney-General and Minister for Industrial Relations
The Honourable Cameron Dick


Monday, February 07, 2011
Queensland takes action to support school chaplains
The Queensland Government will intervene in a High Court matter to support school chaplains.
Attorney-General Cameron Dick said the constitutional validity of Queensland’s school chaplaincy services was being challenged in the High Court (Williams v Commonwealth of Australia and Others).
Under the Commonwealth Judiciary Act 1903, State Attorneys-General with an interest in a particular High Court case can intervene with the State making representations to the High Court on the matter.
Mr Dick said the Queensland Government supported the provision of chaplaincy services in State schools.
“School chaplains provide an important service – as friends, mentors and positive role models for thousands of young people,” he said.
Minister for Education and Training Geoff Wilson said the constitutional challenge threatened the good work of school chaplains.
“Chaplains have been working positively with students in our State schools for two decades,” Mr Wilson said.
“School chaplains are the Salvos of the school yard. Just like the Salvation Army representatives who work in the wider community, school chaplains provide a vital and valuable service within our schools.
“Chaplains are a friend to those in need, and touch the lives of thousands of students every year.
“Often the driving force behind introducing chaplains into State schools is the P&C or members of the wider school community.
“Chaplains are only ever adopted into schools after the principal has consulted with the school’s P&C and the school community.”
More than 500 chaplains operate in more than 698 Queensland State schools.
The High Court case involves action by Mr Ronald Williams, who issued a writ on 21 December 2010 challenging the constitutional validity of chaplaincy services provided in a Toowoomba State school. Mr Williams, a Toowoomba resident, asserts that the Federal Government is not authorised to fund the school chaplaincy program, and that the program breaches the Constitution.
Member for Toowoomba North Kerry Shine said he supported the government’s intervention.
“School chaplaincy programs, which are optional in State schools, provide personal support to students, teachers and the broader school community,” Mr Shine said.
“These non-discriminatory programs show respect for everyone, regardless of one’s faith, and provide a valuable service that students really appreciate.
“I appreciate that not everyone agrees with the programs, but my impression is that they have overwhelming support in Toowoomba North State school communities.”
Media contacts:
Attorney-General and Industrial Relations Minister 3239 3487
Education Minister 3237 1000

Requiring you to communicate with the minister forces you to deal with the dark side. Good luck.

[RealityRules]

Joint Statement:Minister for Education and Training The Honourable Geoff Wilson
Attorney-General and Minister for Industrial Relations The Honourable Cameron Dick

“Often the driving force behind introducing chaplains into State schools is the P&C or members of the wider school community.
“Chaplains are only ever adopted into schools after the principal has consulted with the school’s P&C and the school community.”

" ..the "wider' school community" - there's a fallacy right there.