Feeling Threatened by Creationist Friends

[Freethinker]

Hi all,

It was in biology class at my local high school that enlightened me, in regards to the work by Charles Darwin. My teacher explained evolution as gradual change and insisted it explained the diversity of all life on the planet. I was enthralled by this concept, something that seemed so simple 'gradual change' could explain so much. I started to question and through research it was clear that- yes man must have shared a common ancestor with that of all the other primates and all life on earth. It just made sense. And not because I could see the resemblance between my lab peers and chimpanzees.

This idea that life evolves amazed me, and quite often I would explain to friends about this concept however they would often not be interested, being from a public school we didn't feel the need to obey and submit to our beliefs like many faith-based schools or wear them on our sleeves for that matter. This all changed however when I went to Uni. I'm currently studying Education and have made many friends of all backgrounds/beliefs, however when I criticise religion I get shut down pretty fast. They say I'm getting my information from the old testament or it's out of context. But i'm never right and they seem to always be in the mindset of 'your wrong! because...' they just simply don't listen. I feel as though no matter what I could say they could weasel there way out of it. And it saddens me at times, because it feels like it's all the religious vs me and even my friends who aren't really religious do not engage in the conversation because they don't want to offend anyone. They sort of categorise me into the arrogant atheist. At the moment it is dividing my friendship with a few people, they make me feel like I'm completely wrong and I should not criticise faith. I don't know whether I should be stronger or perhaps shelter my lack of belief in a sky daddy to not create friction. I mean I have no problem in discussing my beliefs to the public, to people I don't know. However I'm a bit conflicted over it getting in between friendships. I've had many sleepless nights because I think that perhaps I'm being too harsh on them, when really I'm not personally attacking them (sometimes I feel they are just self-centered and they perceive that any little criticism is against them) but merely I'm just speaking my mind.

So from my rational friends, I'm interested to hear how you have overcome this sense of 'being the only one' in your family or friends.

[Fearless]

Hello Freethinker, welcome to the forums. Hope you enjoy your stay. There are so many similar stories here, you will find many in this forum section but you are certainly not alone. I will try to respond a bit better later but I am about to shoot out the door, but for the meantime, Mr Black's evil twin wants to share a few words.
Cheers

-------------------------------

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Hi! This is a message from Black's Evil Robot Twin, sent to all who find their way to these forums.

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Have fun.

[Deanus-Maximus]

Welcome aboard FreeThinker. While I can't directly empathise with your situation I do understand it. It sounds a bit like your friends are a bit fundamentalist but it would be interesting to know what they're studying at uni also (can I presume Education like yourself?).
Give yourself a few weeks to trawl through the posts here - Fantasy Island is a good place to start. You'll find some pretty standard counter arguments and plenty of ways of discrediting/debunking theirs.

In any case, enjoy your time here and I (and I'm sure others here too) look forward to your future posts.

[Worldslaziestbusker]

Hello Freethinker
The description of your introduction to evolutionary biology resonated with me. I had a very similar high school experience. Uni was a very different kettle of fish, though, as I studied biology, and the creationists were few and far between.
My most recent workplace, despite being full of fossils, machines for finding the age of rocks and people doing interesting stuff that relied on a very old earth and the evolutionary processes that occurred on it being a given, still had enough creationists about to get me into trouble with management for being overtly atheist. They are persistent, but, happily, not completely immutable. You can talk sense to some people, sometimes.
I am not in your shoes, so I can't vouch for the path to greatest happiness in your situation, but I am glad to know you take your ideas sufficiently seriously that you argue your corner in the face of apparently overwhelming odds. If more people were willing to do so, the problems religion causes our community would disappear all the faster.
There are heaps of clued up people on this forum who can help you with questions about religion, science a broad range of life issues, but only you can decide how you will tackle the decisions you face about how to act and react on a day to day basis.
Good luck with your studies and your discussions.
WLB

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

1. Ask them what the right context is.
2. Tell them about Matthew 5:17-20 (ie. the ones which say the OT laws do apply, and you cannot dismiss them)

I can understand this situation, however I must admit to laughing (as much as I can, which is not much) and telling them about how wonderful Santa Claus is.

[Senexis]

My honest advice to you is to get new friends. It's painful, but they don't live in the same reality we do, and if it's an issue now it won't go away.

[Peanuts]

[quote=Freethinker;141934]And it saddens me at times, because it feels like it's all the religious vs me and even my friends who aren't really religious do not engage in the conversation because they don't want to offend anyone. They sort of categorise me into the arrogant atheist.[quote]

Welcome Freethinker! :)

I can really empathise with you! My feeling of disconnection with friends and (some) family members is why I joined the AFA. No one in my family is as passionate as I am in wanting to spread the word about the harm religion and other mumbo jumbo beliefs can cause. They tell me they don’t care about these things like I do and are happy to “let it go”.

I haven’t been called arrogant yet but I’ve been told to get off my soap box and have been asked the stupid stock question “where do you get your morals from if you’re an atheist?” I have also had the awkward and uncomfortable silence in a group when I’ve said that I’m an Atheist. I found though, the more you learn about something and talk about it openly, the easier it gets! ;)

[quote]however when I criticise religion I get shut down pretty fast. They say i'm getting my information from the old testament or it's out of context. But i'm never right and they seem to always be in the mindset of 'your wrong! because...' they just simply don't listen.[quote]

Friends are supposed to listen to you and respect what you have to say even though they may not agree with it. You will get lots of support here Freethinker and there are many threads that you can read through to get facts to use against any religious arguments you are faced with in the future!

But most of all it’s a fun forum with alot of patient, kind and smart people that will help you if you need it. Enjoy! :D

[Freethinker]

Thanks for the responses,

First, seems like there is a great community around here and I will be sticking around.

Thanks Fearless- Would be great to hear what you think and again I appreciate the welcome.

Deanus-Maximus- Yeah they are studying Education as well. Which is a bit concerning because I feel that having such a closed mindset is not such a good thing. I guess the private sector won't mind. Thank you for the advice, I will have to check out fantasy island.

Worldslaziestbusker- Perhaps I should of studied Science instead of Education. It certainly does feel like I'm on my own. The interesting thing though... is that these people aren't 'stupid' they are intelligent people but just superstitious, I cannot fathom that. Good to hear some people listen but my friends just seem so stubborn. But thank you for your comment, it's great to get some different perspectives and advice.

Haha thanks Crocodile, seems like a good strategy. What I find however is they don't really know themselves, yet I'm always wrong in my analysis. I do believe they are self-centered in the sense that whenever I criticise religion they always interpret it as me attacking the Judeo-Christian God. They seem to overlook the many other Gods and religions.

Senexis- I certainly agree that they seem to live in another reality. But they are my peers and I feel that I should engage and debate with them. Just you never know, something might click and resonate with them. I do have Atheist friends who aren't as gentle as I am, in regards to catering religious belief.

Thank you Peanuts :) It seems I'm not alone and you have felt what exactly I am feeling now. Yes I have had that thrown at me recently, "where do you get your morals from?" And at first it caught me off guard but I basically said society shapes and creates its own morals. I've also been asked, "what is my purpose in life?" Anyway thanks again peanuts, it's great find a place with like minded individuals.

[michalis]

I have learnt the hard way to just not discuss issues of religion with friends or family. I will let them know my position but unless they bring up the topic I am happy to avoid it. Meh, who cares what they believe, as long as they leave me out of it which they do for the most part.

Strangely enough my own facebook page seems to be exempt from this position...

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Haha thanks Crocodile, seems like a good strategy. What I find however is they don't really know themselves, yet I'm always wrong in my analysis. I do believe they are self-centered in the sense that whenever I criticise religion they always interpret it as me attacking the Judeo-Christian God. They seem to overlook the many other Gods and religions. Good luck trying to get some answers or knocking some sense into such people. Perhaps Christians are easier to knock at least some sense into, having heard of and seen about many christians going to atheism, but I can tell you from the perspective of an ex-muslim that thinking (at least for muslims) is ridiculously hard. And also muslims tend to stick with things a lot, and many deny all the bad stuff muslims do around the world and will ignore problems associated with Islam in general too.

I guess I don't have a lot of real life friends, so I really have got fuck all to lose as far as friendships are concerned; and even my amazing Christian friend sticks around despite me hammering her beliefs with the Santa Claus argument. Personally I only bother bringing up the Santa thing and attempting to prove how ridiculous her beliefs are, when she mentions things about God's mighty divine plan and what not.

[Fearless]

Sorry, I am going to talk about myself a bit here but many of us have similar stories.

Just this year I 'came out' quite suddenly a week before my birthday to my closest circle of friends at dinner. Some mixed reactions, but I was cornered about going to the GAC earlier this year and didn't want to lie about it. I had nothing to hide but I was pressed for an answer. Before this time I just kept my atheism to myself. I gave a recent brief run down of it here in this thread:

Reactions from others
http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=7633

From my original thread on the issue from the time:

When your best mate is a theist...
http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=4383

Although this guy was my best mate growing up I have had to distance myself from him and a few others and although I had conflicting feelings for doing it, I do believe I made the right choice. On Facebook, if anyone starts preaching or praising god they are off my list. I have tried to challenge them on what they say but all they seem to do is feel threatened, not wanting to confront anything, which soon deteriorates into you being the trouble maker, as if you are hell bent on trying to destroy something good.

He still tries to keep in contact. We are still amicable in the good will sense, but I wont let him in close, as in I talk generally with him as I would with a work colleague. It goes no further.

It is a shame but I have come to realise you just can't debate, or discuss these things with most apologists or vague believers. Half the time they don't know what their belief even is as long as they use the words: love, god, jesus, faith etc that seems to be enough to cover anything.

With others you don't want to cut ties with I think it is important to set clear boundaries if you want the relationship to continue and that goes for yourself as well (as in don't break your own rules). If you don't want to discuss religion then you need to let them know.

After all the above happened I have felt somewhat liberated since. I am now more than glad it happened. In fact some other friends who found out who are also atheist or curious have made efforts to strengthen their relationship with me. So I guess the door swings both ways. I don't march around announcing my atheism per se, but given I feel strongly about atheism not being treated as a negative position I am more likely to discuss it openly. If others have a problem with it (assuming I am not 'proselytising') then that's their problem.

Thanks to Croc (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=7143) I now take the definition of myself as being an Antitheist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antitheism)
The most relevant part of the definition that

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antitheism
Antitheism has been adopted as a label by those who take the view that theism is dangerous or destructive. One example of this view is demonstrated in Letters to a Young Contrarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letters_to_a_Young_Contrarian) (2001), in which Christopher Hitchens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Hitchens) writes: "I'm not even an atheist so much as I am an antitheist; I not only maintain that all religions are versions of the same untruth, but I hold that the influence of churches, and the effect of religious belief, is positively harmful."I am starting to digress so I will stop here, but my own journey continues as I am sure yours will also ;)

I won't even get started on my mother being completely brainwashed by the Seventh Day Adventists. But in short I have set boundaries with her and she knows not to try to preach or she will only really succeed in pushing me away. She doesn't want this ;)

[Onlyatheory?]

G'day Freethinker,
Unfortunately, most of us have come to the realization that (quoting a sitcom here!!) 'If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people'. I try not to bring things up unless some utter BS is brought up in my presence. Unfortunately, I lack the diplomacy to let this kind of crap go unchecked. However, I am coming to the realization that for those of us that think that religion and woo in general are harmful, we must resign ourselves to accept that this fight is going to be long haul. There will be no sudden turn away from irrationality, it will be a slow and steady shift. I kind of agree with much of Sam Harris' philosophy in that we should just keep shooting down bad ideas as they come our way and leave it at that. Bloody frustratingly slow though!
Oh yeah, welcome;)

[DanDare]

Hi Freethinker,

I've never really had a coming out story, I always just seemed to be out.

On the other hand I have some deeply religious and wooist friends and family. I even discuss religion and woo with them. One of my friends is a Pentacostal, speaking in tounges, homosexuality is a sin guy. One is a moderate muslim. I have an aunt who is a guru, chrystal healing, dream catching nutter.

The key to it is similar to bringing up children. You have to have reasonable and consistently firm boundaries. I don't push religious subjects and so on, but I'm happy to chat when they are brought up. When my Pentacostal bud brings up homosexuality is a sin I get very firm that I think he is being immoral and that his belief is unjustifiable. When my muslim friend starts telling me that evolution is just a belief I chastise him for abandoning early Islamic scientific culture and remind him again (and again and again) that science is a tool for bypassing belief to examine reality. When my aunt wants to chant and sing, fine, I even join in, when she thinks "alternative medicine" should be subsidised by medicare I explain that she has to demonstrate efficacy first, in which case it would no longer be "alternative". I never give silence to something I don't agree with, I will always make a comment to remind folks that I do not consent to their point of view.

Sometimes it gets heated, but mostly we all share common interests and tastes. We each try to influence the other about various things and I sometimes don't see one or the other of them for a while while they cool off. It works.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

One thing I find rather noticeable in many theists, is that they are more than willing to laugh at and criticize other peoples' beliefs, but as soon as I mention how ridiculous/stupid/fubar'd their beliefs are, they get all pissy.

I find this with my family a lot: they're more than happy for me to pick on the Catholic church and Christianity, but oh no... not Islam!

[cyclist]

hi Freethinker, welcome to the forums. I have a guy at work who is a christian, I have tried talking to him about it at times, but I think that he is afraid to talk to me about it now as I learnt a lot quickly.

However, in relation to the OT, Croc has already pointed out that it is still relevant, but if you want god to be divine, you need to include the OT in any discussion. No OT, no god divinity.

Further, the 10 commandments are in the OT. You could also try quoting some of the "nicer" stuff in the OT and the ask why that isn't taken out of context, yet the violent stuff is? Further, if they claim that it was relevant to that time and place, then ask why should we consider it here and now? How do they decide what is relevant and what isn't?

Someone here said that everyone makes up their own bible based on what they like from it.

James

[Logic please]

Hi Freethinker, welcome to the forum, hope you enjoy the discussion and free thinking :)

If your religious friends (or anyone) chip you about being an atheist, one reply would be to point out that they, too, are atheists....

...in respect of every other god that they don't believe in. You just take that position one god further*.... :cool:

* Disclaimer: not my original idea - referenced in 'The God Delusion", and is a sig of at least one poster here - can't remember who, at the minute :o:)

[Annie]

Hi there Freethinker. I hope you enjoy your time here.:)

[Freethinker]

Thanks for all the replies :)

I can't reply to all but discussing and hearing the opinion of others certainly is comforting! I'm currently reading and half way through 'God is Not Great' by Christopher Hitchens. I wish my Creationist friends would give it a read but they are far too stubborn.

I am positive that their strong belief is a fear of death type situation. They seem to take the position of 'what if?' my arguement to that is- you might as well wear garlic around your neck, what's to lose? If vampires exist your safe if they don't exist you have the burden of carrying around a stinking onion around your neck for the rest of your life.

But I do agree with Crocodile, in fact they certainly have no problem in dismissing other religions (rather hypocritical when they say to me, respect other beliefs). I have re- framed from saying anything against Scientology because they seem to get enjoyment from me criticising it. Well it's no more bizarre than what they believe.

[Mentally Saturated]

Hi Freethinker, and welcome to the AFA forums.

You've certainly jumped into the deep end. Your questions are some of the hardest to answer, methinks. We're all different people.. we all have different situations... so it's usually difficult for many to answer some of these questions directly because of those differences.

I share your experience (altho through a different situation), and I have to admit, I'm similarly struggling to find a way to handle things. I've put friendships under considerable strain simply by having such conversations with them, but that's actually one of the reasons I cite... to maintain a healthy, rational skepticism, we need to be having these conversations. Religion is traditionally a conversations stopper... but times are, thankfully, changing.

Hanging around here, I expect you'll hear about the myriad ways that people handle different situations.. but in regard to this particular issue, there's one "approach", so far, that I've found to be occasionally more effective than others. And it's about asking ourselves the questions... specifically... "Do you care if your beliefs are true or not ?". It is, of course, essentially a "loaded" question... as anyone who responds in the negative probably isn't taking the question seriously... so then it simply comes down to how seriously they really do care if those beliefs are true.

Those that are supposedly convinced in their beliefs should have no qualms about asking certain questions, but if they do have reservations, they really should be asking themselves why. If some questions cannot be asked, what kind of scrutiny exactly does their position stand up to ? If the answer is "none at all", do they find that truly acceptable, and if so, why ? Can there be no examination of these topics whatsoever ? And are such folks truly comfortable living under such a dictatorial system ?

Please forgive me for what amount to these rather random spoutings. I feel I've communicated quite poorly... perhaps I should not have responded at all... but I am especially motivated to do so primarily because you've mentioned that these folks are looking at becoming educators. To me, that's something to be concerned about. Whatever their fields of interest may be, it honestly makes me wonder how, for example, they will handle any change in what we know about any particular subject. For such changes, we must look at a subject critically... and yet they've clearly demonstrated (and, in fact, seem to find it as desirable or preferable) an inability to examine an issue. (Perhaps asking them how they think they can handle such changes might be worthwhile ?) I really don't think such dogmatism has a place in the realm of education.

Anyway... I wish U the best in your journey of truth, and look forward to reading more of your contributions here.

Gary

[Ernie]

HI Freethinker.
I’m an old educator, and I’m surrounded by Christians! I even have an in-law who is a minister, and some close relations who are fundamentalists. For years people have been at me to believe. The result has been the evolution of a defence system.
As to the Old Testament (the bit of the Bible that is borrowed from Judaism), this actually constitutes (by my own rough count) more than 70% of the work. If the Christians are unhappy with it (and some of my close relatives are) they could simply take it out. This would shorten the work considerably, and would do away with having to defend all sorts of abominations (including my favourite bit about having unfaithful wives poisoned by the local priest; see Numbers 5.11- 31). Of course, if they do throw out the Old Testament they would do away with parts like Genesis. It is this book that is claimed as providing evidence for a very young planet. I’ve looked at Genesis, and I don’t think it does actually provide a date, so they could revise this part and write in what they want it to mean. There probably some other bits they would want to keep; for example, they could include the Ten Commandments (especially this bits about worshiping the right God and keeping the Sabbath). In fact, while they were at it they could re-write the rules to fit the twenty-first century.
As to the Christian position of natural superiority in putting their views, I simply explain to them that I am ready to believe what they are putting forward if they provide a concise and logical explanation of why I should believe in Christianity. The rules for this explanation are that it should be free from unsupported generalisation and obfuscation. So far I have not had any (successful) takers. What an interesting challenge to lay down in an education faculty! One caveat applies – ensure you brush up on the use of logic in debate and know all about the logical fallacies (these are pretty useful in essay writing too)!
Finally, when the usual torrent of words starts up, I switch the track to the history of Christianity by asking a question. There is ample scope here, and I like to dwell on the various religious wars (what was behind the Spanish Armada?); the inquisition (how long did the Roman inquisition really last – was it 400; 500 or 600 years?); the persecution of science (Galileo and others). And then there are the present scandals involving the sexual exploitation of the innocent by very religious people (and what about those cover ups?) A bit of background reading will reveal some interesting areas for discussion! It’s been my experience that Christians are not well read on these aspects of their religion.
I do hope the above contributes something to your discourse with Christians.
Eardstapper

[Ernie]

Upon reflection, I should add some caveats to the above regarding inviting logical explanations as to why one should believe. This has some dangers!

Firstly, some people have a very queer idea of what is logical. As indicated in my original post, the person issuing the invitation should be well read on logic in argument and on the logical fallacies. A person adjudicating any formal debate would also have to know about these.

Secondly, in issuing this sort of invitation we need to be reasonably well read (and the reading includes some philosophical reading). Works like Bertrand Russell’s History of Western Philosophy addresses quite a number of religious issues (including the ontological “proof” of the existence of God) and is a worthwhile addition to the library. He reports the thoughts of both proponents and opponents, and then (at page 710) indicates that he thinks that modern logic finds the argument invalid.

I think the ploy has worked well for me because my opponents only read works supporting religion. Having two sides of the argument is always useful.

Eardstapper.

[simonecuttlefish]

So from my rational friends, I'm interested to hear how you have overcome this sense of 'being the only one' in your family or friends.

Wish I could help with that part. I have no idea what it would be like to be surrounded by people who may place 'conditions' on their friendship/relationship with you over a personal belief. It's clearly NOT a "personal" belief at all, but a demand. You would all agree (you and your peers) that rape and murder and false accusation and anything that resulted in extreme negative outcomes based on ethical principles is just plain bad.

This is enough for a friendly co-existence to form. So they don't know about or don't want to talk about evolution, fine! You may be really into breeding rare South American cichlids, and learn that discussing this at length with your friends bores them rigid. So you DON'T DO THAT! :)

This suggests that there is way more to it than that. Are you prepared to let them, unchallenged, hold their beliefs? The term beliefs are not now, nor should ever be changed to the VERY different term 'knowledge'? Now ask, are they allowing you to have your beliefs in regard to the validity of scientific inquiry? Scientific inquiry DEMANDS levels of evidence that actually can be considered as 'knowledge'. Are you judging them as 'fools', and treating them as deluded morons? Are they treating you as unworthy, shameful, fallen, debased and/or DESERVING of eternal punishment or damnation?

I'm curious as to your weighing up of the interpersonal relationships with the people around you before I charge in again.

[Ett]

Thanks for all the replies :)

I can't reply to all but discussing and hearing the opinion of others certainly is comforting! I'm currently reading and half way through 'God is Not Great' by Christopher Hitchens. I wish my Creationist friends would give it a read but they are far too stubborn.

I am positive that their strong belief is a fear of death type situation. They seem to take the position of 'what if?' my arguement to that is- you might as well wear garlic around your neck, what's to lose? If vampires exist your safe if they don't exist you have the burden of carrying around a stinking onion around your neck for the rest of your life.

But I do agree with Crocodile, in fact they certainly have no problem in dismissing other religions (rather hypocritical when they say to me, respect other beliefs). I have re- framed from saying anything against Scientology because they seem to get enjoyment from me criticising it. Well it's no more bizarre than what they believe.
To me you seem to be on the right track with what you are doing. In the end, it is a lot about you really and if you do not enjoy getting into it with your friends then leaving the subject alone may help. You could then refer to a forum like here or quotes of other like minded people to put you at ease of mind when you are feeling alone.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"

And an old favourite I have been unable to find:

It is not up to anti-theists to prove God does not exist but theists to prove that he does.

On the other hand if you enjoy discussing it with your friends, and you want to be able to discuss it openly then certainly I would continue, if I were you. Just be considerate of your friends is my only advice, think how you would feel if something you believed in were being attacked (even if that is not the case) and how you may be able to discuss it with them without bringing out a reaction but more open thought. Try to instil that dreaded niggling second thought in the back of their mind, if it is not there already. That way you may get somewhere in the long run. ;)

[Ernie]

I'm curious as to your weighing up of the interpersonal relationships with the people around you before I charge in again.[/quote Simoncuttlefish]

Simoncuttlefish raises an important point. Responses depend upon personalities and what is being put forward.
I think that insecurity has a lot to do with people’s attitude to discussing religion.

In fact, believing itself can be the result of insecurity. I observe that some are motivated by illness. Some are insecure about death; and others dislike uncertainty, and crave the apparent certainty that is claimed by religion. Religion promises comfort in these areas, but I won’t start a debate about its ability to deliver – that would get us right off this current topic. Because of their vulnerabilities this group often needs to be treated with consideration in discussions about religion.

Some (perhaps many) are insecure about their own belief; and this affects the way they interact with others about it. They are often quite strident in their claims for what they believe. Still others are rather too confident in the truth of their beliefs and proceed with Bacon’s Blind immoderate religious zeal (cited in Grayling 2007). This group can be the most obnoxious: and, accordingly, when they are, they deserve the full weight of whatever can be brought to the argument.
The real difficulty is determining what sort of person(s) you are talking with. But when faced with the strident claims of the religious enthusiast I prefer to use all of my resources.

I don’t mind an argument. However, I’m aware it is far too easy to get into nasty and unproductive arguments about what other people accept as “truth”. It is always possible to politely request that the subject be changed, or we can intervene to effect a change of direction!

Eardstapper

Grayling AC Towards the Light Bloomsbury London 2007

[Xeno]

And an old favourite I have been unable to find:

It is not up to anti-theists to prove God does not exist but theists to prove that he does.Is this your view?

Perhaps you should trot over to where Goldenmane wants to find out stuff (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showpost.php?p=145783&postcount=1).

[Ett]

Is this your view?
Um, ideally? I would like it to be but unfortunately I do not think it would benefit us much. At least not any time soon.

[davo]

And an old favourite I have been unable to find:

It is not up to anti-theists to prove God does not exist but theists to prove that he does.

anti-theists? you mean someone not accepting a claim don't you?

ie: the burden of proof rests on those who claim something exists, be it leprechauns, fairies, ghosts, santa or a god or gods.

[Justtristo]

Secondly, in issuing this sort of invitation we need to be reasonably well read (and the reading includes some philosophical reading). Works like Bertrand Russell’s History of Western Philosophy addresses quite a number of religious issues (including the ontological “proof” of the existence of God) and is a worthwhile addition to the library. He reports the thoughts of both proponents and opponents, and then (at page 710) indicates that he thinks that modern logic finds the argument invalid.


I have the audio book version of Bertrand Russell's History of Western Philosophy, that book is fanastic by the way.

[simonecuttlefish]

One piece of advice I would give to everybody on here, buy a bible and read it in your spare time. That has helped me immeasurably against Christians, they struggle to come up with explanations to my questions to give an example; the manner temple sacrifices are preformed described in Leviticus which are pretty weird with the blood being slashed on altars and priests painting their ear lobes and toes with the blood of the sacrificed animals.

Here are some options for this wonderful suggestion.
1) The Skeptic's Annotate Bible (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/) online is GREAT!
2) Free Bible Software (http://www.e-sword.net/downloads.html) That one is e-sword, and you can download extra bible translation to put in it (free ones are lower down the list) from HERE (http://www.e-sword.net/bibles.html)
3) Just for a laugh, check out the Wycliffe version of 'Apocolypse 13' (http://www.bibledbdata.org/onlinebibles/wycliffe_nt/66_013.htm)(that's what Revelations 13 was called at one point) GOTHIC in the most absolute extreme, if they use the original spelling :)
4) Read up about the translation to remove liberal bias (JESUS!!1!1!) Conservapedia Conservative Bible (http://www.conservapedia.com/CB) project. These nut jobs are seriously creepy.

Wycliffe sample :)
13:2 And the beeste, whom Y sai, was lijk a pard, and hise feet as the feet of a beere, and his mouth as the mouth of a lioun; and the dragoun yaf his vertu and greet power to hym.

[Deanus-Maximus]

Wycliffe sample :)
13:2 And the beeste, whom Y sai, was lijk a pard, and hise feet as the feet of a beere, and his mouth as the mouth of a lioun; and the dragoun yaf his vertu and greet power to hym.
Reminds me of this: http://www.lolcatbible.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

[Ett]

anti-theists? you mean someone not accepting a claim don't you?

ie: the burden of proof rests on those who claim something exists, be it leprechauns, fairies, ghosts, santa or a god or gods.
Nope.

[Fiery]

Wow Ett. Your reply did NOTHING to enhance our understanding of what you DID mean. If you don't have time to explain yourself, kindly tell me what is the point of showing up here and putting up a one word answer like that?

A picture is worth a thousand words. Your "nope" wasn't even worth 4 letters.

[Fiery]

http://www.seriouseats.com/images/20090318-cwacom-pancakes.jpg

[Xeno]

It is not up to anti-theists to prove God does not exist but theists to prove that he does.Is this your view?

Um, ideally? I would like it to be but unfortunately I do not think it would benefit us much. At least not any time soon.

anti-theists? you mean someone not accepting a claim don't you?

ie: the burden of proof rests on those who claim something exists, be it leprechauns, fairies, ghosts, santa or a god or gods.

Nope.Ett, your reply to me did not make much sense. Please clarify what you mean.

Your reply to Davo is comprehensible but still not making much sense. It needs some argument. At the moment you look like you are saying that any person can make any assertion they please on any basis and it is up to some other party to refute it, not on the claimer to support it.

That is not how science or most conversations work, and even the religious usually start by trying to support their claim before their supposed evidence crumbles away.

[Coryate]

Thanks for all the replies :)

I can't reply to all but discussing and hearing the opinion of others certainly is comforting! I'm currently reading and half way through 'God is Not Great' by Christopher Hitchens. I wish my Creationist friends would give it a read but they are far too stubborn.

I am positive that their strong belief is a fear of death type situation.



Hi Freethinker,
I grew up as a first class New Age woo beliver, UFOs, Loch Ness Monster, Creative Visualization, all sorts of things. I used to go into the Circle bookshop in Brisbane and check out all the self help books.

I think the penny dropped for me about 23 that the self help books where only helping the authors bank acounts, and that was the definition of "Self Help" Then I started being much more critical

But all my friends at that stage were still into it all, so I kept my mouth shut, and I slowly moved away from them all.

It's only in the last 3 years that I started getting into Gnu Atheism, mainly due to the increase of religious thinking, and teh insanity of Tony Blair, the books of Richard Dawkins, and the birth of my son.

I'd sit next my son while he was trying to sleep and wonder
"How will I explain the universe to you?"
"How can I teach you not to make the same mistakes as I did?"
"Can you please stop waking up at 2am?"
"How am I going to explain woman to you when I don't understand them myself?"

I was on the Underground (I'm in London BTW) when this overweight muslim guy sat next to me, and almost im my lap, so I pulled out my copy of "God is not great" and started reading...then he moved slowly away :D

Fear of death is a big motivater for the godly, and now I have a son I understand why.

[RealityRules]

Originally Posted by davo
anti-theists? you mean someone not accepting a claim don't you?

ie: the burden of proof rests on those who claim something exists, be it leprechauns, fairies, ghosts, santa or a god or gods.

ETT: "Nope".

It is a principle of philosophy and a couple of its sub-branches - ethics and logic - (as well as the principle of Burden of Proof) that
He who avers must prove


There also the classic three Laws of Thought from Aristotle's times

1. Law of identity: 'Whatever is, is.'
2. Law of noncontradiction: 'Nothing can both be and not be.'
3. Law of excluded middle*: 'Everything must either be or not be.'

* not to be confused with the fallacy of the excluded middle.

[Freethinker]

Thanks everyone for the responses :)

Sorry it's been such a long time since I've replied, last few weeks i've been caught up with exams but they are finished now and the holidays are here :cool:

I have read most of the responses and it's great to be able to get a second opinion. I will consider the points you have made and some of them I've been very impressed by and most certainly will have to adopt!


(sorry for the rather short reply, I will edit and elaborate soon, as currently not on my PC)

[Praxis]

Hi Freethinker, just wanted to pop in to say something (and I haven't read the thread entirely to see if it's been mentioned so if it has, sorry).

I've been reading The Greatest Show on Earth (Dawkins) [I dip in and out of this book] and recently read the section on the Lenski E coli evolution experiment. I'd heard about this before but Dawkins explains it in an elegant and simple way. He specifically notes that this incredible and valuable experiment, which has been conducted (and continues to be conducted) over many, many years, is something Creationists hate most of all because it completely proves precisely what they love to claim is not possible, ie. something coming from nothing.

Really worth a read. Especially the little bit about the Conservapedia guy hassling Lenski to give him some of his samples so he can 'disprove' them! Gold!

In fact, I reckon if you just said 'the Lenksi experiment' to a creationist who thinks they have all the answers, it would be interesting to see them flinch.

Good luck!

[Aldaron]

Ha! I just visited one of Simonecuttlefish's links - the one to the Conservapedia Bible. Now that was a giggle!

My favourite line was:

"liberals will oppose this effort, but they will have to read the Bible to criticize this, and that will open their minds"

Umm...yeah. I have found a lot of former theists become atheists after actually reading the whole Bible for the first time and realising what lunacy is contained therein!

[DanDare]

Ha! I just visited one of Simonecuttlefish's links - the one to the Conservapedia Bible. Now that was a giggle!

My favourite line was:

"liberals will oppose this effort, but they will have to read the Bible to criticize this, and that will open their minds"

Umm...yeah. I have found a lot of former theists become atheists after actually reading the whole Bible for the first time and realising what lunacy is contained therein!
And many of us atheists have read the stupid thing more than once.

[Atrax Robustus]

And many of us atheists have read the stupid thing more than once.

. . . and we also have more than one version as well!

[Mantrid]

one reply would be to point out that they, too, are atheists....

...in respect of every other god that they don't believe in. You just take that position one god further*.... :cool:

Gold!

[Mantrid]

I work with a lot of different people (I do IT service work at people's homes and businesses), and a lot of them are clearly religious. The house covered with various religious artifacts and framed bible quotes, plus the religious comments in conversation. If they happen to ask "what religion are you?" (as if I have to be one of them), I just explain that I'm a logical person, which basically means if you can't work it out and prove it on a computer, I don't believe it. Maybe that only works in my line of work...

The first time I heard the "but where do you get your morals from?" question, I was flabbergasted. I seriously couldn't believe that they had no sense of right or wrong and were just going on what they were told. After I got over the shock, I explained that I have a conscience and I was sorry to hear that they didn't. Some come back with the follow-up of "but what if you're wrong?". I ask them "but what if the guy who told your guy to tell you is wrong?". At least I know directly if what I do feels right or wrong. It's the difference of being able to tell if you just put you hand in hot water or cold water. Would you rather know yourself or ask someone and hope they know?

Your best defence is knowledge - knowledge of their religion. I found good progress in being their conscience and pointing out if they were saying or doing something their religion disagrees with. If you say it in a concerned and helpful way, they usually stop and think and agree, and even thank you for reminding them. Eventually they work out that you know more about their religion than them and stop trying to convert you or question you.. as long as you don't preach against their religion. I'm not sure if it actually helps show them the light, but it's at least amusing :)

One final suggestion in dealing with your friends. If they have a problem with your view, ask them if they'd prefer you keep quiet about it and agree to do so as long as they keep quiet about theirs. They'll probably agree to start with, but then constantly slip up - which gives you opportunity to reply with your view without them being able to get too upset - they slipped up first and you were just pointing it out. The other alternative is to acknowledge that you'd like to remain friends and you'll let them express their opinion if they let you express yours. The only condition is that you both won't try to start a debate about each others views, as they come out from time to time, unless you agree in advance that you actually want a debate.

[Andy63]

Hi FreeThinker

By questioning their beliefs you are attacking Christianity which has existed for 2,000 years, has immense power, and immense wealth extorted from the laity over the millennia. So expect hostility because by questioning the beliefs you are threatening them.

But take heart than you are in great company – Socrates, Voltaire, Hume, Mill, Russell, Dawkins, Hawkins and many more just go to — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheists to see what great company you are in.

So you are not alone — but you are different — you are prepared to think for yourself. You should feel proud that you are prepared to question and think for yourself. Much better than being one of the millions of mindless ‘sheep’ who are too afraid to think for themselves.

Rather than arguing with them – I suggest exploring the issues by asking questions rather than making statements. This is the approach was used very effectively by the Platonic Socrates.

1. If they criticise you by saying you are get your information from the old testament, ask them if they reject the old testament scriptures. Most will not because the old Testament claims a Messiah will be born – Jesus – The new testament evolved from the old testament, and cannot be justified theologically without the old testament. If they don't reject them then how can they criticise you when you refer to it.

2. I noticed one reply to your first post raised the common Christian position of - where to you get you morals from if not from Christianity
You could respond — the same place Christianity got its morals from - the Greek philosophers Aristotle and Plato, the neo-Platonists and the Stoics.
If they deny this them tell them to read the the Summa Theologiae by St Thomas Aquinas – he was a strong Aristotelian.

3. Finally you could ask them one or more of the following questions
a. Do you believe the Sun is a god or do you believe it is an enormous fusion reactor fuelled primarily by hydrogen?
You don't believe the Sun is a god - why? - Is it because science has proven to a sufficient level of probability that eliminates the possibility that the Sun is a god.
b. Do you believe the bodies in the Solar System revolve around the earth - the Ptolemaic model - or do you accept that all the planets in the Solar System orbit the Sun?
You don't believe the Solar system is geocentric - why? - Is it because, science has proven to a high probability that the planets do orbit the Sun?
c. Do you believe the 'Black Death' was as divine punishment sent by God?
You don't believe this - why? - Is it because science has established that the plague was an epidemic caused by the Yersinia Pestis bacterium which has existed long before Christianity?

Then pose - If science can establish the Sun is not a god, that planets revolve around Sun, and the Black Death was not an instrument of Divine retribution; Is it not possible that science can over time establish the cause of many more phenomena which religious people currently believe are caused by Divine intervention?

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

If they claim that the old testament doesn't apply, they've obviously forgotten or never been taught Matthew 5:17-20 which just so happens to be in the new testament.

[simonecuttlefish]

If they claim that the old testament doesn't apply, they've obviously forgotten or never been taught Matthew 5:17-20 which just so happens to be in the new testament.

Croc - I love this bit, the part you quoted:
from http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A17-20&version=NIVMatthew 5:17-20 (New International Version, ©2010)

The Fulfillment of the Law

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.And then Jesus goes totally whack-job-word-salad and says crap like, for where the law says 2+2=4, I say 2+2 means elastic panty gorilla biscuits, and for where the law says do not commit adultery, I say, pee pee got on the verandah pan typo, and where the law says obey the law, I say, my nipples they are exploding with delight so go on.... see how much you can fit in there.... I can take it LOLOLOOLOLLL.

So much for not a jot, or tittle, or dash, or a dot or whatever translation they want to use. Jesus SERIOUSLY when off medication apparently, if you choose to believe that Jesus ever really existed.

EDITED IN

Check it - WIBBLE WIBBLE WIBBLE WIBBLE FRISNIT FRISNIT
Perhaps no word or even written character changing means something different if you can't read that well.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:21-48&version=NIVMatthew 5:21-48 (New International Version, ©2010)

Murder
21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:21-48&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23256a)] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:21-48&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23257c)] will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:21-48&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23257d)] is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell. 23 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.
25 “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
[B]Adultery
27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:21-48&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23262e)] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
Divorce
31 “It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:21-48&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23266f)] 32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Oaths
33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.[g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:21-48&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23272g)]
Eye for Eye
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:21-48&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23273h)] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:21-48&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23278i)] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

[Perspective]

LOL - You know what Freethinker - I'm so freaking over it. My parents are Catholic and they keep asking where they went wrong with me. I have awesome friends who all have similar stories - infact one was a preacher as a teenager and stills cringes at the thought...

Stuff it buddy - we have one life. I don't really care what 'they' think anymore - coz if you think about it (which WE all clearly do) they never cared what WE THOUGHT.

Think what you want - you know you're right ;)

[kais_4]

@ Freethinker: Mate.. something I've learnt from my 22 long years of experience on this Earth, (;)) is that you only live once. Surround yourself with people who:

a) Make you laugh
b) Aren't irrational dipped in crap

I'll argue with them when need be, however if it causes unnecessary grief then sometimes it's better to be a lone ranger.. or such :rolleyes::cool:

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

LOL - You know what Freethinker - I'm so freaking over it. My parents are Catholic and they keep asking where they went wrong with me.All you have to do is ask them where you went wrong with them. Best time to ask such a question is probably when they ask where they went wrong.

Basically they didn't "go wrong with you" and if anything at least you can think for yourself now.