Is mental telepathy the reason religion hangs on?

[MikeM]

We have all heard the expressions such as "the harder I work the luckier I get"....."what goes round comes round" etc. And then there is karma and so on.

These expressions are very common among high achievers.

Over my business life I have found this thinking to be correct. There almost seems to be a score card.

If someone goes cold calling for one solid month a reward seems to come. If the reward is too big for what they did then the engine falls out of their car as an offset. If there was no reward from the month's cold calling then the money seems to pop in from "something" a bit later.

In general people experience all of the above to a greater or lesser extent and that in turn I believe gives the basis for religion.

HOWEVER, I have never seen anything physical occur such as the engine falling out of the car which makes me believe there is no "superpower" pulling the strings or getting involved with us.

Is mental telepathy or some other similar communication possible?

Has anyone here read Think and Grown Rich?

[davo]

<snip a whole lot of stuff that has no evidence or references and put forward as fact>


Is mental telepathy or some other similar communication possible?


Not at the moment, but in the future yes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Warwick


Has anyone here read Think and Grown Rich?

No

[SchizoDeluxe]

I don't believe in mental telepathy and all of that paranormal stuff, very skeptical of anyone who claims to have any of those attributes. Karma is a strange one as sometimes coincidences can turn up in the most unusual situations, but it only really seems to fit for those who look for it or seem to have a string of good or bad luck. But no, I don't subscribe to it at all, even bad guys can go through life without paying for their sins. But the title of the thread does bring up an interesting point, I think there may be a connection with religion and the existence of paranormal wishes, I mean the two go hand in hand as they were very popular in ancient times but I think it would be the other way around though.

[SchizoDeluxe]

That was very rude Protium, wash your mouth out :p

[MikeM]

How is this about atheism, or for that matter about religion, apart from very tangentially?

This seems to be about that Secret thingy or similar woo. I believe you should be posting this in Off Topic.

Not about The Secret. The Law of Attraction does not work by just thinking. It does work with very high activity and that is not The Secret.

__________________________________________________ ____

I think it is the basis as to why religion exists and hangs on.

In other words what people see or think of as God is really a product of mental telepathy or some similar way of communicating.

[davo]

In other words what people see or think of as God is really a product of mental telepathy or some similar way of communicating.

Nope, I think the simplest explanation is the best, it's a mind virus

[MikeM]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeM http://atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?p=9122#post9122)
Has anyone here read Think and Grown Rich?

No

It is the mother and father of all motivation books. Written by a fellow called Naploeon Hill, around the mid 1930s and one of the biggest selling books of all time.

Among other things it gives a good insight to the basis of religion in America.

[davo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Attraction

Maybe he is talking about The Secret

[MikeM]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Attraction

Maybe he is talking about The Secret

I already posted....not The Secret

[davo]

I already posted....not The Secret

Mike everything you are talking about has been popularised recently as it says in the link I posted .. by The Secret.

I'm going to have to pull out of these discussions, They just go flat out with no direction, heaps of statements but no thought put into presenting even the original topic in the thread, and I don't really want to spend all my time in a two-and-fro trying to work out what the hell the discussion is about.

cheers

[MikeM]

"Law Of Attraction" huh? Okay, explain how it works and I'll arrange a double-blind trial. I have a few willing volunteers ready to go.

The Law of Attraction is very simple. The Secret has turned it into some type of religion for fucking lazy people:D

In business your activity, way of thinking, convictions etc will lead you to certain people. There is nothing mysterious about that.

eg. I will never make data bases for larger companies. I have been self employed all my life and have a "back room" mentality. The plumber, the doctor and the candle stick maker will buy from me. I could sit here all day and all week (according to The Secret) and think about signing up the AMP but it won't happen, unless I change a lot of things and I mean a real lot of things.

[davo]

The Law of Attraction is very simple. The Secret has turned it into some type of religion for fucking lazy people:D

In business your activity, way of thinking, convictions etc will lead you to certain people. There is nothing mysterious about that.

eg. I will never make data bases for larger companies. I have been self employed all my life and have a "back room" mentality. The plumber, the doctor and the candle stick maker will buy from me. I could sit here all day and all week (according to The Secret) and think about signing up the AMP but it won't happen, unless I change a lot of things and I mean a real lot of things.

and your point is? ....

[MikeM]

The Irreverent Mr Black,

You seem to be seriously pissed off with the world.

It is almost like your atheism is a mission of disbelief in everything.

[MikeM]

AMP don't buy 99%-working database apps from small operators. Their people Think Big, so they probably deal with a transnational corp. QED :)

But I covered that in my posting.

"I could sit here all day and all week (according to The Secret) and think about signing up the AMP but it won't happen, unless I change a lot of things and I mean a real lot of things."

[MikeM]

Why do you think I am seriously pissed off with the world, MikeM?

Just come across that way.

Although I think you have company on this site.

[davo]

"Is mental telepathy the reason religion hangs on?"

No, as mental telepathy does not exist.

[MikeM]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeM http://atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?p=9150#post9150)
The Law of Attraction is very simple. The Secret has turned it into some type of religion for fucking lazy people:D

In business your activity, way of thinking, convictions etc will lead you to certain people. There is nothing mysterious about that.

eg. I will never make data bases for larger companies. I have been self employed all my life and have a "back room" mentality. The plumber, the doctor and the candle stick maker will buy from me. I could sit here all day and all week (according to The Secret) and think about signing up the AMP but it won't happen, unless I change a lot of things and I mean a real lot of things.

and where does the mental telepathy come into this???

Better to ask the member I responded to.

I would prefer it to stay on topic. But some people rely on Google and thus bring in The Secret or whatever.

As I posted earlier today, I was hoping my first posting on the site would lead to the topic I started. That was not to be the case and that is no ones fault....we are on an internet forum:D

You have seen some of my postings where I have said the "gods" are only low horsepower, no universe makers. I have no idea whether it is mental telepathy or low horsepower gods or "whatever' but I do know that "things" intervene in my life as it does for others. It is most common when there is a very high level of activity in conjunction with risk taking.

And I suspect this is what keeps religion going and also allowed for religion to start.

In other words the atheists are probably right on the big picture, that is, the universe or multiverse.

[MikeM]

We were discussing you, not me.

Why do you think I am seriously pissed off with the world, MikeM?

You maybe mixing up postings, easy to do at the moment.:)

[davo]

I would prefer it to stay on topic. But some people rely on Google and thus bring in The Secret or whatever.

Just trying to work out what you are talking about. I answered your questions to start with, then you go off on a tangent about karma etc, with no real point regarding it? What are you saying?

Ok some of the discussion is getting a little clearer, and I can't help myself, but please, lets stick to clearly presenting your ideas ok? Not working in circles suggesting stuff then getting upset people don't follow your train of 'thought'.


You have seen some of my postings where I have said the "gods" are only low horsepower, no universe makers. I have no idea whether it is mental telepathy or low horsepower gods or "whatever' but I do know that "things" intervene in my life as it does for others. It is most common when there is a very high level of activity in conjunction with risk taking.

Your not talking about gods then, your talking about plain old supernatural/paranormal entities


And I suspect this is what keeps religion going and also allowed for religion to start.

In other words the atheists are probably right on the big picture, that is, the universe or multiverse.

It's not 'the atheists' .. it's plain science.

[MikeM]

Seems like you might have this effect on other sites...

I'm pretty sure this is you they're talking about MikeM... (http://www.ethics.org.au/ethics_forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3745&PN=1)

No. Not even close.

I am on Australain Hunting Net and Access Word Forums (a UK based site, but some Australians and heaps of Americans). I will gather a couple of links to threads and post them.

I would like to get a few of you blokes to Access World Forums as their resident atheists simply don't have it. One thread there is over 2500 postings.

Australian Hunting Net only has what I would call amateur atheists. In other words a lack of belieif in the Catholic or Anglican church etc. Naturally I had to correct that:D

I will get some links for you.

[davo]

I would like to get a few of you blokes to Access World Forums as their resident atheists simply don't have it. One thread there is over 2500 postings.

Don't bother, people using Access are already lost, atheist or not.

[MikeM]

Just trying to work out what you are talking about. I answered your questions to start with, then you go off on a tangent about karma etc, with no real point regarding it? What are you saying?



I thought I only mentioned karma in the thread starting post.

Karma, mental telepathy..the harder I work the luckier I get....are all in the same basket.

But I don't remember saying "karma" in a response to one of your posts.

But who knows:D

Ok some of the discussion is getting a little clearer, and I can't help myself, but please, lets stick to clearly presenting your ideas ok? Not working in circles suggesting stuff then getting upset people don't follow your train of 'thought'.

I don't get upset, it is others who get upset. Check the postings on the different threads. I have been accused of being a troll, illiterate etc. But I do apologise (again) for causing people to get upset.


Your not talking about gods then, your talking about plain old supernatural/paranormal entities

I don't think it is supernatural in the sense a supernatural is intervening.

But the answer won't be found in the university course:D

It is quite common with very high earning surgeons. In fact anaethetists and others will often say...he just seems to get the right cases....

But coming back to my topic, I think this sort of thing underpins religion AND it happens.

[MikeM]

This was your first post...


Other than expressing to us you haven't thought anything through fully, where did you expect it to go. You have provided nothing but circular reasoning and aggravated most people you have come into contact with.

But I have for years but can't get a an answer.

[MikeM]

Don't bother, people using Access are already lost, atheist or not.

Ok. Saves me trouble.

[davo]

It is quite common with very high earning surgeons. In fact anaethetists and others will often say...he just seems to get the right cases....

But coming back to my topic, I think this sort of thing underpins religion AND it happens.

If your referring to karma and 'good things happen to good people' there was a lively discussion of this not long ago :

http://atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=645&page=5

I don't think it underpins religion, can you provide some evidence other than an assertion? generally if you make an assertion, it is good form to back it up, rather than just state it, then have everyone have to prove it wrong.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/burden-of-proof.html

[youngmoigle]

Over my business life I have found this thinking to be correct. There almost seems to be a score card.

If someone goes cold calling for one solid month a reward seems to come. If the reward is too big for what they did then the engine falls out of their car as an offset. If there was no reward from the month's cold calling then the money seems to pop in from "something" a bit later.


It's been decades since I read about these things, but I have the feeling that Game Theory and The Drunkards Walk (from the Theory of Probability) may well explain your "score card" theory.

Also I'm finding it hard to find a connection between the score card idea and your implication that mental telepathy is the reason that religion "hangs on."

[davo]

If your referring to karma and 'good things happen to good people' there was a lively discussion of this not long ago :

http://atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=645&page=5



Actually, have a look at how assertions are presented in that thread MikeM. It makes discussion a lot more clearer to do so, rather than one or two line back and forths. slow down, think through, and present your point

[MikeM]

Don't bother, people using Access are already lost, atheist or not.

Since Access is fucked I must be a good salesman:D

But what about only using Access as the front end and SQL Server instead of JET for the backend?

[MikeM]

If your referring to karma and 'good things happen to good people' there was a lively discussion of this not long ago :

http://atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=645&page=5

I don't think it underpins religion, can you provide some evidence other than an assertion? generally if you make an assertion, it is good form to back it up, rather than just state it, then have everyone have to prove it wrong.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/burden-of-proof.html

Can you post without links. Surely you must have an opinion of your own.

[davo]

Since Access is fucked I must be a good salesman:D

But what about only using Access as the front end and SQL Server instead of JET for the backend?

Nope, the multi billion dollar industry that is Microsoft and the fact that they have so much market power from historically is the salesman. People don't know better.

With regards solutions, I always look at the actual job I have before me, then decide on the best implementation for that, based on not only the company, but the job that the interface is to complete. Shoving everything in a one box solution is not the be all and end all of providing solutions, all it is is a marketing strategy.

But we digress, if you want to discuss we should really create another thread, 'Microsoft vs Everybody Else'

[davo]

Can you post without links. Surely you must have an opinion of your own.

Mate you don't even bother do you, with any of the information not directly all typed out for you as if I am some reiteration slave. That thread IS my opinion on the subject. If you can't be bothered looking at PAGES of information I present and have discussed over all the points, why should I go thru it ALL again for you?

[MikeM]

It's been decades since I read about these things, but I have the feeling that Game Theory and The Drunkards Walk (from the Theory of Probability) may well explain your "score card" theory.

Also I'm finding it hard to find a connection between the score card idea and your implication that mental telepathy is the reason that religion "hangs on."

I suggested mental telepathy as an explanation for "what seems to happen"

As a by the way, I know the "score card" is not Theory of Probability.

Mental telepathy may not be the mechanics. But whatever the mechanics, people experience things that are not covered by Theory of Probability. It is possible that those experiences lead to a support of religion and even to the reason religion managed to "lift off"

[Seamus]

@MikeM

Yes,I've read "Think and Grow Rich" by Napoleon Hill.

Also "Bring Out The Magic In Your Mind" by Al koran

and "You'll See It When you Believe it " by Wayne Dyer


The most recent incarnation of the same, single idea contained in these books is in "The Secret"

The 'secret' is that we create our own reality. A psychiatrist such such a belief 'magical thinking'

Magical thinking in anthropology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropology), psychology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology), and cognitive science (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_science) is nonscientific causal reasoning that often includes such ideas as the ability of the mind to affect the physical world (see the philosophical problem of mental causation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_mental_causation)), correlation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation) mistaken for causation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causation). A law of contagion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_contagion) may be brought into play, as well as the power of symbols, and the apparent meaningfulness of synchronicity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronicity). (wiki)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_thinking


A philosopher calls it 'solipism'

Solipsism is the philosophical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy) idea that "My mind is the only thing that I know exists." Solipsism is an epistemological (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology) or ontological (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology) position that knowledge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge) of anything outside the mind (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind) is unjustified. The external world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_skepticism) and other minds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_other_minds) cannot be known and might not exist. In the history of philosophy, solipsism has served as a sceptical hypothesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeptical_hypothesis).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipism


I have never seen any credible evidence for mental telepathy,pre cognition, telekinesis or any other type of para normal activity.

[davo]

I suggested mental telepathy as an explanation for "what seems to happen"


Nope you have made the assertion that it is valid to be considered an explanation, with no evidence or reasoning behind it whatsoever.

Mental telepathy does not exist, therefore, it is not the reason religion 'hangs on' .. it is not a reason, for anything.

[MikeM]

Mate you don't even bother do you, with any of the information not directly all typed out for you as if I am some reiteration slave. That thread IS my opinion on the subject. If you can't be bothered looking at PAGES of information I present and have discussed over all the points, why should I go thru it ALL again for you?

I have saved three of yours as favourites to look at later. :)

[MikeM]

@MikeM

Yes,I've read "Think and Grow Rich" by Napoleon Hill.


I have never seen any credible evidence for mental telepathy,pre cognition, telekinesis or any other type of para normal activity.

What are your thoughts on Think and Grow Rich.

[MikeM]

Nope you have made the assertion that it is valid to be considered an explanation, with no evidence or reasoning behind it whatsoever.

Mental telepathy does not exist, therefore, it is not the reason religion 'hangs on' .. it is not a reason, for anything.

In my thread starting post:

Is mental telepathy or some other similar communication possible?

[davo]

Is mental telepathy or some other similar communication possible?

Whats your definition of 'similar' to telepathy? I took it as supernatural mental transfer, I can't think of anything else 'similar' as it doesn't exist, therefore anything else similar doesn't either.

My answer is no, if you are talking supernatural, as they don't exist.

Also look at the title of the whole thread, the focus was mainly on telepathy.

[MikeM]

Whats your definition of 'similar' to telepathy?

Some type of communication between humans. What it is, I have no idea.

But I think it is the reason for religion being supported.

When a man takes himself to the extremes (usually backed by a belief he can do it) this occurs on a daily basis. For example, the surgical specialties that require the person to walk over hot coals lack atheists. But I believe in that case and and similar "god" is being mistaken for what happens between humans at a different communication level.

I am sure you have heard the expression that goes like "the world makes way for the man who knows what he wants" and it is so true. Of course "want" is more than a "wish". People move to one side without even knowing they have moved. Things fall into place etc

The person who has that "special thing" the "mission they are on" is communicating to other people.

[davo]

Some type of communication between humans. What it is, I have no idea.

But I think it is the reason for religion being supported.

Well ... yes that kinda makes sense I mean .. communication between humans :rolleyes:

People are born atheists, they learn religion from communication with other humans


When a man takes himself to the extremes (usually backed by a belief he can do it) this occurs on a daily basis. For example, the surgical specialties that require the person to walk over hot coals lack atheists.

Atheist skeptic walking over hot coals, as anyone else does, with only physics on his side :

-W5FRl0qhOM


But I believe in that case and and similar "god" is being mistaken for what happens between humans at a different communication level.

EDIT: actually, I am not sure what you mean by 'different communication level'?


I am sure you have heard the expression that goes like "the world makes way for the man who knows what he wants" and it is so true. Of course "want" is more than a "wish". People move to one side without even knowing they have moved. Things fall into place etc

The person who has that "special thing" the "mission they are on" is communicating to other people.

yea .. I think, not quite sure what your saying .. I call it a mind virus. passed onto children and people in positions that are susceptible due to environment, lack of education, peer pressure or problems in their life etc etc etc.

[MikeM]

Originally Posted by MikeM http://atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?p=9209#post9209)
When a man takes himself to the extremes (usually backed by a belief he can do it) this occurs on a daily basis. For example, the surgical specialties that require the person to walk over hot coals lack atheists.

Can someone translate this?

Well, it would normally be simple to translate althouh it does not normally require translation.

But I have been posting on

How Long Will The New Atheism Last?

And those posts are in the Evolution Theory thread.

I have now lost track. Davo is right...I am stupid and an idiot:D

[Donna]

Some type of communication between humans. What it is, I have no idea.

But I think it is the reason for religion being supported.



Communication between humans is just that - communication, there is no woo to it, if you 'think' there is where is your proof? Oh that's right, you admit you have no idea what it is. Do you just pull these statements out of a hat or what? Hard work and determination will sometimes get you where you desire. Ordinary human failings will also sometimes stop you getting there. Are you jealous of what others have?

So you think some kind of woo woo mental telepathy communication is supporting religion...what absolute rubbish, where's your proof of that statement, oh yeah, right its that thing that you have no idea what it is!! Do you seriously think we will all meekly just take YOUR WORD for that bwahahaha bull shitting much?

The indoctrination of children is what is supporting religion. When we stop the religions from brainwashing children and stop them re-enforcing it with a lifetime of fear, religion will become a quaint old folkloric tale, eventually you will go and look at its relics in a museum somewhere and point and laugh. Its a part of human history, but we're moving on now, just like we've always done - us humans :D The internet has changed everything for religion, I don't think they will recover in the long term, too much reality.

[davo]

I have now lost track. Davo is right...I am stupid and an idiot:D


either that or you have similar issues to a lot of the people I have seen on speed or having anxiety problems or other illnesses, ie: can't keep things together, all over the place, flipping from one thing to the next, unable to maintain cohesion in their discussions, pick and choose one or two elements then focus on that etc etc

You alright mate? seriously? Just slow down a bit, it's like you are going flat out without stopping to think

[Donna]

either that or you have similar issues to a lot of the people I have seen on speed or having anxiety problems or other illnesses, ie: can't keep things together, all over the place, flipping from one thing to the next, unable to maintain cohesion in their discussions, pick and choose one or two elements then focus on that etc etc

You alright mate? seriously? Just slow down a bit, it's like you are going flat out without stopping to think

Not a lot of thinking going on, so maybe you've hit the nail right on the head Davo....

[MikeM]

I think I did quite well. I have answered postings from multiple posters on different threads.

But it is getting tiring now and I think we have covered all points:D

So I might just focus for now:D on the "meat thread"

[davo]

I think I did quite well. I have answered postings from multiple posters on different threads.

But it is getting tiring now and I think we have covered all points:D

So I might just focus for now:D on the "meat thread"

It's not a score card in how much you can answer, it's the quality of your answers that count.

I am sure you have some great insights to contribute, if only you slow down and look at things a little more, rather than rushing to post. Get together your ideas, present them in a way that is cohesive, with all points in a post related to each other, and try to avoid just brain dumps, as this is where confusion and frustration on the part of people honestly trying to understand what you have to say is coming from.

Theist, deist, that's cool, just have your points together when presenting them, or expect people to get frustrated, and more so when you point back at the frustration and go 'SEE!! SEE!! just like born agains!!' ;)

[MikeM]

I had to rush to post because I had it on all fronts:D

But I am eratic in this area as it is the only part of my life where I am not like the atheist or born again.

Perhaps we can discuss some different points and whereby the "red light for incoming attack" does not come on.:)

[davo]

I had to rush to post because I had it on all fronts:D


Tip: that's when you slow down and elucidate your points, get it right, let others go wacko, as that's what they will appear to be if they just rush like you are doing ;)

But I am eratic in this area as it is the only part of my life where I am not like the atheist or born again.


You keep making this association, maybe you could get a post together with your actual points regarding this, so it can be discussed. That way rather than you just continually making the assertion they are related, you provide the evidence that they are in a cohesive manner. Others and myself will be quite happy to go thru it and write an extensive reply, trying to keep everything directly focussed on what you are presenting. That way the issue is discussed in a refined way, and you are not just continually saying that, without expressing exactly what you mean.

Others are taking the time to reply to your slap-dash points as fully as they can, but the one liners are nothing more than fish hooks.


Perhaps we can discuss some different points and whereby the "red light for incoming attack" does not come on.:)

certainly, but please refrain from making assertions, and not following them up with evidence or some form of data to define it. This is just like myself saying 'typical deist' all the time, or saying 'deists and born agains are just the same'. and not adding or defining what I mean, leaving it up to you to rebutt, with nothing to rebutt too but a wild assertion.

[MikeM]

We can pick it up tomorrow. I had a look at your links on the meat thread.

[Seamus]

What are your thoughts on Think and Grow Rich.





The most recent incarnation of the same, single idea contained in these books is in "The Secret" I then go on to explain the meaning of magic thinking and solipism. ("The Secret is the 2006 best selling book by Rhonda Byrne)


The single idea is often called "The Law of Attraction".There is no such law within science as far as I'm aware.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Attraction

Not sure I can be any clearer than that,except to say say it there is no testable evidence that it works. In a phrase; it's bullshit.

The idea seems especially popular with those who have yet to master critical thinking, such as theists who rely on blind faith.

This sums up my position rather pithily: That intellectual giant Oprah Winfrey endorsed "The Secret" .:p

I hope I've answered your question,as I'm unwilling to spend any more time on this topic.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_(book)