NBN "The National Broadband"

[atuanui]

Did you all know that if the libs get back into power they will cancel the construction of the NBN.
They will then go back to rubbish they were proposing before the last election consisting of ADSL and wireless.
Not really the future.

[Lord Blackadder]

The NBN sounds like a complete wank and waste of money to me. The concept is brilliant - bring Australia's internet infrastructure into the 21st Century - but the proposed execution is, like everything Labor has done, an exercise in pissing money down the toilet. And these bastards still want to create Nineteen Eighty-Four - Conroy's conspicuous silence isn't fooling anyone.

I cornered my local Liberal candidate and asked him why the Libs hadn't committed one way or the other on the Great Firewall of Australia. He stated that is was because the party was split. The old-timers (Abbott, Bishop 1 and Bishop 2 et al) all love it because the are technological troglodytes. The young 'uns (him and a few of the party members under 45) think it's a wank and an infringment of privacy. So no joy there, but at least he was honest. Well, for a politician. :rolleyes:

[SchizoDeluxe]

It's a poor choice among the majors when it comes to IT & comms.

One lot want to make it 1984, and the others still seem to hanker for the 1950s. ;)

(Note for the literal-minded: I am being FLIPPANT.)

Too true. It's a friggin joke to be honest.

[KeithW]

Access to the internet is one very small part of the concept of the NBN. It is going to open up a whole new world of services on demand, true competition in pay TV, and it will be completely replacing the old copper wires over the years.

[AWarGuy]

But if Labor stay in power, they will jump start the internet filter, it's only delayed because of the elections.

[RealityRules]

Do we know what the Coalition will do?? I reckon the ACL have the Coaltion in their pocket as much as they had Rudd in their pocket.

[Xeno]

The previous two comments are already in discussion in one or both of the Internet Filter and Election threads. You might like to check in there.

[rosiemacduck]

NBN is going to become a major financial mess according to this report ...
http://petermartin.blogspot.com/2010/09/nbn-is-slowly-unfolding-disaster.html

[loubert]

NBN is going to become a major financial mess according to this report ...
http://petermartin.blogspot.com/2010/09/nbn-is-slowly-unfolding-disaster.html


bahahahahaha,,, stick to economics old chum, stick to economics.....

[Seamus]

No one seems to be able to tell what I can expect and what it's going to cost compared with now.

Currently Adam: ADSL2. As of today: 2647kbps bandwidth. Allowance 50KB a month(peak) 50GB off peak(midnight to 8AM),uploads not counted,as long as ratio is less than 2:1 Cost $70 a month. I can reduce to 50GB overall for $50 a month.

Is it just me or do people not realise that one's download speed is limited to the upload speed of the source?

[GenericBox]

People don't realise alot of things regarding technology and this is no exception.

They just wait for the Government to throw around a few buzz words about the topic and vote them in at the election based on who had the bigger wordcount!

[Xeno]

Peter Martin's comments have often been good in the past but I fear that his acceptance of Cox's lack of understanding of technology, not to mention distortion of the economic case*, does not speak well of him on this occasion.


* e.g. if the wholesale cost is expected to be $30-$35 at 6%-7% ROI then a requirement for 12%-15% ROI would raise the $30 to less than $32 (6.5% to 13.5%). Yes, this is wholesale and will be inflated at retail but it is still a shitload cheaper than Telstra's $168 monopolistic kite, which Cox leaves you to infer will be the real cost when it will not (which fact he will know).

[loubert]

It really sounded to me like he was pushing someone else's agenda.....

[Atheist]

The NBN is the single greatest policy initiative in this government's kit bag.

Australia's current network sucks balls.

Download 'allowances' are fake bullshit dreamt up by Telstra and should and will be abolished through the provision of the NBN.

The single largest point of failure of the NBN in it's present guise is it's documented under supply.

A review of the NBN Co Limited website rolllout maps PDFs demonstrated the cherry picked deployment of fiber missing large quadrants of regional and rural Australia.

Lobby the Gov to triple rural deployment of NBN and increase the expenditure if needs be.

[Atheist]

Oh and last thing I forgot - If you hold Telstra shares - don't expect capital growth - and anticipate a coming decline in the dividends as revenues decline. Thier business model does not survive in a post NBN environment as they FINALLY relinquish their monopoly position to this long overdue coup de grâce.

[Seamus]

Ah,Ok BUT----- What changes can I realistically expect and what will it cost me?

From what's been posted,this my impression:

Usage limits will be abolished.

Bandwidth will be increased by about a factor of 10,at least.

Download speed will increase,depending on the upload speed of the source.Within in Oz that will be vastly faster than now.

The cost will go up for light users,but down for heavy users. My costs should go down from $70 a month to as little as $45 a month.The cost will depend in part on take up rate.

BUT I think increase in domestic use of broadband may be in wireless,not cable.

[KeithW]

Seamus, the fibre optic network will be used to try to "future proof" Australian telecommunications. The current copper network will be phased out and gone completely in 10 - 15 years (best estimates). In fact you will find that no copper will be laid in new sub divisions from now on.

Competition may lead to unlimited plans but don't bet your house on it. Australian ISP's have a very different outlook to other more progressive nations. All the FTTH plans being offered right now include a download cap, it is their way of making more money.

Most of the plans on offer (to those on the NBN in Tasmania) are pretty competitive with ADSL2 plans.

Everyone uses the internet differently. I look at my monthly internet access purely from my download allowance perspective and not in relation to time. If I am offered a 50gig a month plan for NBN for the same allowance and price of ADSL2 what incentive is there to change right away. If I can download 50gig in 4-5 hours that's my monthly internet used up. Now very attractive is it.

This is why the issue of download caps must be looked at. If online movies are not free from your monthly quota there will be no point in having the NBN.

The NBN is not all about internet access though, it is just a small part of its capability.

I'm heavily involved in the NBN, we are working with NBNCo to maximise ANZ opportinites from a national perspective.

http://gateway.icn.org.au/project_full_display.php?projectid=2418

Our websites are www.icn.org.au (http://www.icn.org.au) and www.icntas.org.au (http://www.icntas.org.au)

[slim]

I don't think the NBN will signal the Advent of unlimited capacity to domestic users in Oz.

Usage charges are a function of wholesale transit providers fees and charges in combination with the big T's monopoly on copper access + whatever other providers have their finger in the access layer...

Connectivity into and out of Oz is in a worse state than connectivity within Oz. Until we have access to trans-Pacific capacity beyond Endeavour and Southern Cross cables, we will have usage/volume based services here. The whole of Australia is connected to the rest of the world by five separate cable systems.

[Seamus]

The NBN is not all about internet access though,

I never thought it was.My questions were based on pure self interest.

I think it's more about about business use,education,even health.THE benefit is real time interaction and transfer of information.

I spend about 8 hours a day,every day,on line; On several forums,email to friends all over the world,facebook,and downloading films and TV shows.I'm retired,it's my main interest.

Of course I'm interested in the proposed changes. I'm not completely convinced the interest in the general community is as high as politicians like to think,

Keith,what do you think of wireless vs cable in domestic use in the long term? I prefer ADSL to wireless because it's cheaper,more secure,I have a PC not a laptop and only use a cell phone in emergencies.

[KeithW]

Wireless/WiMax will be a big part of the NBN, especially in regional areas, and also satellite. A lot of links into the house from the terminal box may also be wireless. Fibre should be more stable and secure.

If someone is just going to use the NBN for "browsing" the internet, they will probably not get too much direct benefit. Doing things like downloading, video/voice calls, movies on demand then the NBN will be of benefit.

It's like anything though, if there is a benefit and the price is right then it will sell.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

I don't think the NBN will signal the Advent of unlimited capacity to domestic users in Oz.

Usage charges are a function of wholesale transit providers fees and charges in combination with the big T's monopoly on copper access + whatever other providers have their finger in the access layer...

Connectivity into and out of Oz is in a worse state than connectivity within Oz. Until we have access to trans-Pacific capacity beyond Endeavour and Southern Cross cables, we will have usage/volume based services here. The whole of Australia is connected to the rest of the world by five separate cable systems.Given Conroy et al with their advanced skillzors in the TCP/IP protocol, I do hope that this comes through. Some are still stuck with 14.4 dialup - switching to the 14.41Kbps National Broadband Network + Filter will speed things up significantly. I think this is a GREAT step to improving overall safety through draconion censorship plans coupled with the NBN which is unlikely to be as fast as originally promised, but even still it will be even faster than dialup!

[atuanui]

Here is a map of the cables:
http://www.reach.com/imap/imap.html
somewhere else is better map, but have lost it.

[slim]

Here is a map of the cables:
http://www.reach.com/imap/imap.html
somewhere else is better map, but have lost it.

I've got stacks of these maps here. There is one staring at me right now, in fact...

Problem is that most of our international content is from the USA (surprise surprise), and we're down to two (three if you count Southern-X southern leg) low latency routes to the interwebz...

I hear there is a new trans-Pac consortium cable in the wings now, which ought to help things along... but that must be at least three years away, if it ever eventuates.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Can't actually embed the video, but: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/daring-to-dream-large-20101220-19335.html

I think the NBN is a fucking joke. 10 years?! By then, there will guaranteed to be a super advanced form of internet technology, and then the NBN will come out and make our Internet connections look like a fucking joke!

[loubert]

Can't actually embed the video, but: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/daring-to-dream-large-20101220-19335.html

I think the NBN is a fucking joke. 10 years?! By then, there will guaranteed to be a super advanced form of internet technology, and then the NBN will come out and make our Internet connections look like a fucking joke!

Sorry but got anything to back up that assertion of Internet tech?

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Sorry but got anything to back up that assertion of Internet tech?If we look at 2011, we currently have what is called "Web 2.0" - and dynamic multimedia applications. In addition, we have connections of 20Mbps (well that's mine is supposed to be anyway) and higher and now the majority of the population in Australia have the internet; and others in the world do as well (http://www.internetworldstats.com/sp/au.htm) - back in around 2001 dial-up was what many had, a few had Broadband, and many didn't even have the internet.

Talking about websites, in 2001 we didn't have dynamic multimedia applications and rich internet applications to the extent we have now.

Who knows what we'll have by 2021 - technology does evolve with time, and usually it doesn't take long.

[cyclist]

The NBN is more about the infrastructure especially covering the "last mile" problem.

If you just consider it that the government is simply laying miles of fibre optic cable and it goes right to your front door, then I think that it is a good thing.

Yes, what we consider to be acceptable internet speeds today will be disgustingly slow in 10 years time, but the speed of light will still be the same. Our current copper network is running into issues. I had it recently at home, my ADSL2 speed went south, and it took a month to find the problem. The fault was with the line between the Unit's MDF and the connection on the street.

James

[Fromm_Nicht]

Can't actually embed the video, but: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/daring-to-dream-large-20101220-19335.html

10 years?! By then, there will guaranteed to be a super advanced form of internet technology

Yep, and the NBN will provide the light speed fibre network through which to transmit such speeds. I hope croc, that as a budding engineer, you are not suggesting wireless technologies will exceed the speed of light in the next ten years...

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

I'm not suggesting anything will exceed the speed of light, but of course new things do pop up. The budget may increase, for example.

Although wireless technology is improving neverthless, but I doubt it will replace wired technology any time soon at this stage.

And with the light-speed network, comes the catch of a possible Internet filter which Conroy wants to introduce; this centralized filtering mechanism he appears to be proposing will slow the otherwise fast Internet connection.

Of course, so far I'm seeing more talk and very little doing, but in this case I hope I am horribly wrong.

[Fromm_Nicht]

I'm not suggesting anything will exceed the speed of light, but of course new things do pop up. The budget may increase, for example.

Although wireless technology is improving neverthless, but I doubt it will replace wired technology any time soon at this stage.

And with the light-speed network, comes the catch of a possible Internet filter which Conroy wants to introduce; this centralized filtering mechanism he appears to be proposing will slow the otherwise fast Internet connection.

Of course, so far I'm seeing more talk and very little doing, but in this case I hope I am horribly wrong.

Ah I see, so your major concern with the NBN is that Conroy will try to stuff his filter in it? Hopefully, with the opposition having stated they will oppose it and the greens opposing it, the filter will never see the light of day.

As I understand it (and feel free to correct me as I'm sure there are many here better educated on this than I), fibre wire has potential transfer speeds of up to (almost) the speed of light and so far there have not even been any scientific findings (let alone the following technological development) for more efficient technologies. Having said that it does seem that replacement technologies for fibre are a good several decades off at least (these things take time from discovery to testing to implementation).

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

If the NBN is just about infrastructure, I can agree it isn't a particularly bad one.

Another issue is management; will the government actually be able to build the thing? Yes, one concern is the filter, but another is whether or not the government will be able to go through with this in the specified price.

There has been no cost/benefit analysis done on this (correct me if I am wrong) and they just jumped straight into it.

The technology for connections (ie. the infrastructure) alone isn't a bad one; but yes - as you did point out, one of my major concerns is the centralized filter, which will defeat the whole purpose of the optical fibre connections in the first place.

[Loki]

Why is a filter relevant?

A filter could just as easily be applied to wireless infrastructure as to wired.

Surely the debate is about whether wired infrastructure will be cheaper in the long run and whether wireless infrastructure will be able to deliver sufficient bandwidth efficiently for future needs.

Secondary debate is about whether a centralised and consistent system is more efficient than a decentralised ad-hoc one.

[Fromm_Nicht]

If the NBN is just about infrastructure, I can agree it isn't a particularly bad one.

Another issue is management; will the government actually be able to build the thing? Yes, one concern is the filter, but another is whether or not the government will be able to go through with this in the specified price.

There has been no cost/benefit analysis done on this (correct me if I am wrong) and they just jumped straight into it.

The technology for connections (ie. the infrastructure) alone isn't a bad one; but yes - as you did point out, one of my major concerns is the centralized filter, which will defeat the whole purpose of the optical fibre connections in the first place.

Do you really think important infrastructure projects should rest on the say of a cost benefit analysis? How do you gauge the benefit and value of modern and future services made available by this infrastructure against a monetary value. If nothing else is not the expanded possibility of distance education for many individuals not enough to justify the costs? What is the value of educating people?

I mean no offence croc but your last post pretty much just seems like a Liberal party media release and we know what their position is on publicly owned communications assets. Hey, they only sold of Australia's telecommunications infrastructure for billions less than what it was worth and created a private communications monopoly that likely set back telecommunications services in this country by a good deal in doing so...

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Do you really think important infrastructure projects should rest on the say of a cost benefit analysis? How do you gauge the benefit and value of modern and future services made available by this infrastructure against a monetary value. If nothing else is not the expanded possibility of distance education for many individuals not enough to justify the costs? What is the value of educating people?I have to admit, that is quite a valid point. However, I would be wanting to make sure the infrastructure proposed can in fact handle this kind of service, and thus it is worth paying for. The NBN is not just about laying down thousands of kms of optical fibre cable alone, it is about connecting them up too. The distance education of individuals will only be there if education institutes participate in this, in which case the existing network infrastructure can also serve this purpose. I think the main purpose of the NBN is to get high speed internet connections to all the Australians - if we can get such speeds that would be great; now the main bottleneck would be what connects Australia to the rest of the world. Can that provide the speeds of 100Mbps as promised?

I mean no offence croc but your last post pretty much just seems like a Liberal party media release and we know what their position is on publicly owned communications assets. Hey, they only sold of Australia's telecommunications infrastructure for billions less than what it was worth and created a private communications monopoly that likely set back telecommunications services in this country by a good deal in doing so...Upon reflection, I can understand why you are saying that though.

[Fromm_Nicht]

I have to admit, that is quite a valid point. However, I would be wanting to make sure the infrastructure proposed can in fact handle this kind of service, and thus it is worth paying for. The NBN is not just about laying down thousands of kms of optical fibre cable alone, it is about connecting them up too. The distance education of individuals will only be there if education institutes participate in this, in which case the existing network infrastructure can also serve this purpose. I think the main purpose of the NBN is to get high speed internet connections to all the Australians - if we can get such speeds that would be great; now the main bottleneck would be what connects Australia to the rest of the world. Can that provide the speeds of 100Mbps as promised?


Phrased like that, these are indeed legitimate queries. It would be nice to know more about the possibilities in new technologies and services available over a fibre network. Perhaps the potentials for advancement in cloud computing is worth looking at, what could it mean in itself for new technological development (higher processing power has always meant a greater ability to develop new technologies, and it is especially handy in the fields of genetic and medical research).

[cyclist]

The distance education of individuals will only be there if education institutes participate in this, in which case the existing network infrastructure can also serve this purpose.

This is a bit of a chicken/egg argument. There is currently the School of the Air for a lot of Rural Australia, they are no longer done over 2-way, but it is now done via internet, giving Rural Australia better internet (and I know that not everywhere is getting fibre) will be an improvement for this system.

There are already a few universities in Australia that are providing Distance Education, I made use of some of it last year through Open Universities. This service will only improve with something like the NBN.

One of the guys I cycle with is a gynaecologist who specialises in ultrasound, he already uses high speed internet to send pictures of ultrasound around, but surely with the NBN it will be possible for him to conduct an unltrasound for someone in woop woop while he is in his Sydney Office and a trained nurse is moving the scanner around on their direction.

James

[Fromm_Nicht]

There are already a few universities in Australia that are providing Distance Education, I made use of some of it last year through Open Universities. This service will only improve with something like the NBN.



It will also be interesting to see if the universities already offering external education such as those with Open Universities and also the University of New England experience significant growth with the uptake of the NBN. Already having the procedures and systems in place to deal with online education these universities may have the opportunity to get ahead of some of the larger big city universities that do not offer it.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Phrased like that, these are indeed legitimate queries. It would be nice to know more about the possibilities in new technologies and services available over a fibre network. Perhaps the potentials for advancement in cloud computing is worth looking at, what could it mean in itself for new technological development (higher processing power has always meant a greater ability to develop new technologies, and it is especially handy in the fields of genetic and medical research).An interesting application of such a thing would be high def television over the Internet - I reckon it is possible to shove things down optical fibres at >100Mbps (depending on the way the signal is modulated through them and the speed of the electronics) and at that rate, you'll get a lot of opportunities for easy backup services, live TV/audio streaming at a high definition, etc.

Strictly speaking, the bottleneck of the NBN (and any fibre optic network for that matter) will not be the fibre optics; it will be the electronics that are responsible for signal processing and transmission and reception.

If you can get the electronics at a decent speed then you can get a decent transfer speed.

Of course then you have the possibility of increased bandwidth: you can shove light of different wavelengths (eg. a 700nm signal and a 500nm signal for example) provided the attenuation characteristics of the fibre are similar for those wavelengths chosen, allowing effectively multiple signals to be put down the fibre at once, and using precision optical filters at the ends to separate the two. Try doing that with copper wiring.

Even the amplifiers can be taken care of (erbium-doped glass fibre amplifiers) and these in theory can handle high frequency signals. Although I am not sure if they can handle multiple colors (wavelengths) of light at a time or not.

So many possibilities with optical fibres.

But of course, we need spot on electronics which can allow for such high speeds.

Oh yes; to add to what you mentioned about universities offering "external education" - I still think the examinations should be held at the university itself (or hosted with examination centres) to reduce potential cheating incidents. The education can be "external" though. I can see it helping people with disabilities in particular.

[Fromm_Nicht]

But of course, we need spot on electronics which can allow for such high speeds.
This is where your future technologies come in Croc. While the fibre optic potential will always be near to light speed it will certainly take some time to fully realise the potential.


Oh yes; to add to what you mentioned about universities offering "external education" - I still think the examinations should be held at the university itself (or hosted with examination centres) to reduce potential cheating incidents. The education can be "external" though. I can see it helping people with disabilities in particular.

That is how external universities currently run their examinations, through either on campus exams or pre-arranged venues in local centres. I believe some also allow supervision by a JP or similar, however I think professionally supervised exams are a safer bet to prevent cheating as I am sure there are plenty of folks who have JP buddies or family members. Having said that, I don't actually think formal examinations are the best indicator of knowledge and skill for many practical tertiary professions. The ability to transfer large amounts of acquired data onto paper in short time periods does not necessarily infer understanding.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

This is where your future technologies come in Croc. While the fibre optic potential will always be near to light speed it will certainly take some time to fully realise the potential.Anybody wants a low cost all-silicon (Raman) laser (http://techresearch.intel.com/spaw2/uploads/files/R817-nature03273.pdf) now while we wait? :)

That is how external universities currently run their examinations, through either on campus exams or pre-arranged venues in local centres. I believe some also allow supervision by a JP or similar, however I think professionally supervised exams are a safer bet to prevent cheating as I am sure there are plenty of folks who have JP buddies or family members.You'd hope that there are multiple JPs in the room and have signed under oath they are not members of the family. Should the system you propose are there of course. Having said that though, I wonder how many JPs would apply for the job?

Having said that, I don't actually think formal examinations are the best indicator of knowledge and skill for many practical tertiary professions. The ability to transfer large amounts of acquired data onto paper in short time periods does not necessarily infer understanding.I agree - they are not the best indicator, but a rough indicator of whether anything was learned at all I think. Put it this way: I am not the best at exams. And I doubt a lot of people are too. In that respect, I do agree with you.

[Lord Blackadder]

Has anyone considered this (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=8207) alternative?

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Advantages:
- much cheaper than fibre optics
- will do fine if the only thing to worry about is to get an Internet connection to rural areas
- wireless so allows wide area of coverage without having to lay lines
Disadvantages:
- slower than the fibre optics due to the use of wireless (but still fast according to article)
- speed can vary significantly depending environment between the Tx and Rx units
- unless encryption is used, some serious privacy and security issues may arise
- high rate of interference issues (and needs a lot of error correction technology as a result)
- (may) require special filtering equipment at the receiving end (eg. similar to ADSL line filters) to be connected to all existing televisions

Although there are supposedly more disadvantages than advantages, it is a win for those who cannot afford to have lines dug up near their place, and at least an internet connection is better than nothing these days.

And if it can offer same speeds as broadband we have today, it isn't too shabby. It's not a bad temporary solution.

[Fromm_Nicht]

Has anyone considered this (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=8207) alternative?
Seems like that option is being suggested only for the remote areas not getting fibre optic and that there would be too much interference in highly populated areas to get a reliable connection. Seems like an ingenious solution to the issue of distance though.

Although there are supposedly more disadvantages than advantages, it is a win for those who cannot afford to have lines dug up near their place
I was under the impression that the government was footing the bill to run fibre past 93% of homes, and that the process of connecting the homes from that point is not so expensive as some persons would have us think.

And if it can offer same speeds as broadband we have today, it isn't too shabby. It's not a bad temporary solution.
Yes, it is certainly something to consider to get internet to those remote communities that are not getting any fibre.

[cyclist]

OK, I know that this thread is kinda old, but I thought that I'd resurrect it given that Abbott/Turnbull has finally released his policy the coalition's broadband policy.

Basic rundown is completed quicker, for less, but providing less bandwidth. Most of the experts have panned the idea, and it would appear that most of the media is reporting it as a bad idea (I haven't seen how the Telegraph is spinning it).

Dom Knight on ABC Evenings last night raised the question about what people use the internet for, and a few people did try and paint the Labor NBN as a white elephant.

I'm aware that there are several industries that are salivating over the existing NBN waiting for a good penetration and they will leap upon it. To me, the best analogy is that when the electricity grid was rolled out, there was only a single appliance that could use it. The light bulb, yet today, people use electricity in so many ways around the house. The internet (and fast broadband) is going the same way, given that household internet is only about 15 years old, it's amazing in how many ways we use and rely upon today. I have heard many people describe Labor's NBN as future proof, even from people who hate using that term.

I can only hope, that if Abbott continues to release his policies now, that he will slump in the polls sufficiently to give Labor a decent chance at the September Election

[loubert]

Cyclist. I agree. I've seen a lot of memes floating around taking the piss out of the coalitions NBN proposal. And rightfully so.

[Darwinsbulldog]

I don't think Turnbull realises just how much the old copper grid has degraded. And the main problem is between homes and exchanges, not the thick trunk lines. So, to [honestly] fix the older bits, he would have to replace most of it anyway. So you may as well run fibre all the way to home and business. I have to get Telstra to repair my connection every few months, almost weekly in winter, and only get a lousy speed ADSL [minus]. eg Low res t-tube is often jerky.

[atuanui]

The collation broadband is called "fibre to the noodle".

It is a very short sighted policy. It cannot be expanded. Prone to failure [lightning strikes , bad copper wires]

They do not know the meaning of infrastructure.
Who built the snowy mountains scheme, and the Sydney harbour bridge, and the opera house?
Not liberal govts.

When I lived in NZ with Muldoon, the prime minister, he was quite the opposite:
He built, and borrowed as much as he could. At least the infrastructure is still there.

[AUSloth]

I don't think Turnbull realises just how much the old copper grid has degraded. And the main problem is between homes and exchanges, not the thick trunk lines. So, to [honestly] fix the older bits, he would have to replace most of it anyway. So you may as well run fibre all the way to home and business. I have to get Telstra to repair my connection every few months, almost weekly in winter, and only get a lousy speed ADSL [minus]. eg Low res t-tube is often jerky.

We do maintenance and repair on remote exchanges and hubs for Telstra and strangely enough at the announcement of the NBN all maintenance ceased and only emergency breakdown repairs were authorised. This is the run down crap the opposition want to sell to the NBN?

[Darwinsbulldog]

We do maintenance and repair on remote exchanges and hubs for Telstra and strangely enough at the announcement of the NBN all maintenance ceased and only emergency breakdown repairs were authorised. This is the run down crap the opposition want to sell to the NBN?
Indeed. I am so friendly with battalions of telstra techies that come and patch up my line over the years I feel the urge to invite them to my next party, wedding, funeral etc. They all say that the old copper will not be replaced, but patched at minimum cost in time and treasure to get it "working" again.
In fact testra would save money by renting one of my rooms from me and have a techie live-in. :D

[FSM]

Has anyone considered this (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=8207) alternative?

No, because it's just like all wireless technology systems, its chokes when you get all the users on it.
Fibre is the best way to do it by several orders of magnitude, and wiresless should only be considered where it is not physically practical to install fibre, and/or some endpoint solutions.

Sustained 100Mbit download AND upload (vitally important to a video content producer like me, and to the general population when that that killer app comes along) with wireless on a wide scale for say thousands of users per node is almost certainly a no-go.

Unlike current GSM or 3G networks which lose download speed exponential to increasing users, Dr Oppermann said an analogue signal would provide a consistent speed no matter how many users there were.


I smell BS when practically implemented. There will be a catch.

[FSM]

I don't think Turnbull realises just how much the old copper grid has degraded. And the main problem is between homes and exchanges, not the thick trunk lines. So, to [honestly] fix the older bits, he would have to replace most of it anyway. So you may as well run fibre all the way to home and business.

Bingo. And that is simply the end of the story.
Abbott's plan is simply spending less to delay the inevitable, resulting in a half arsed system for almost everyone well into the future. In fact it's an order of magnitude less arse, but that doesn't roll of the tounge as well.

[cyclist]

I also like the fact that the lib's are spruiking the fact that it'll be done 2 years earlier. Which is 2019 as opposed to 2021. But that is for the final finishing touches. Most people are only interested in when they're going to get it. I'm slated for sometime in 2015 or 2016.

As many have pointed out, the existing Telstra Copper network is in a very bad state of repair right now, NBN Co only bought access to the ducting of that network, not the cables themselves, the lib's are going to have to buy that from Telstra (who won't sell it for a small amount, and remind me lib's, who's fault is that Telstra are able to charge the government whatever they want for that infrastructure), and then have to maintain it.

Overall, I think that long term, the lib's policy is going to cost more compared to the Labor one, and it will eventually become the same as the Labor idea, but it will cost more to get there and longer.

[gruber]

Iam interested to know how the liberals plan to break the contracts that the Labor government has put in place?

[FSM]

I am interested to know how the liberals plan to break the contracts that the Labor government has put in place?

They can't. Simple.
The companies will only rip up the contracts if they get more in return than what the contract will be worth to them.