My story.....

[hmn]

I thought I might share my story so far, not as interesting as everyone elses but anyway...

My dad has been an Atheist since before I was born so I probably get it from him. Although I don't know if I can call myself an Atheist yet as I still have to do more research. All I know is I don't believe in god and I think that maybe Jesus was a real person. But that's it, a person. I think he probably did do something that made him become so talked about, but the stories changed over time.

I believe in the big bang and evolution. To me it's so obvious, it's been pretty much proven. One thing I do believe, that might be against Atheism is I really don't think that when we die that's it! Something happens, not heaven or hell, that's rediculous! I like the idea of re-incarnation (sp?), I'd like to believe it but I'm not 100% sure.

Anywho, I started going to christian camp when I was a kid. I loved it, more for the activities, we had to go to church everyday but that was just a chore that had to be done. Until Ma and Pa had a talk to me and my brother. They must have been the owners or something. They probably saw 2 news little kids that they could brain wash and they did! That's when I started believing all that crap. I remeber one girl was riding the camp mini motor bikes and had a pretty bad fall on gravel. All she got were scratches, I remember all the camp leaders going around saying god saved her, god made sure her fall was soft, blah blah blah, I believed it too.

I loved camp and went for years, they were good camps apart from the religious part. As I got older I started to become a bit on the fence, I felt guilty when I had thoughts that god might not be real because of what we were taught at camp. I remember we had to do bible readings before bed each night at camp and I decide to mark the verse we were reading one night. I scribbled over it with my pen, my cabin leader saw me and she yelled at me. Aparently it was disrespectful, I didn't get it, it was my damn bible I can do what I want with it! :p

Eventually I got to old for camp but I continue to be a sort of christian. I didn't go to church. I only prayed when I wanted something, as you do as a kid. I wasn't very good at it hehe :D. And I believed that there was no such thing as hell. But the older I got the more I didn't believe, my dad never really talked to us about religion, I don't know why. He did talk about science alot and if we ever called an ape a monkey he would freak out! :eek:

I started watching the news more as I got older and that was a big influence in me becoming a non-believer. If god is all powerful and crap then why would he let so many bad things happen to innocent people. I don't really remeber when it happen because it was so gradual, but at some point I decided there is no god. I know, a bit boring but I'm glad I know the truth now.

Recently I saw the best documentary I have ever seen, Zeitgeist. Their theory on where this god stuff came from made alot of sense to me also the stuff about 9/11, scarey but probably true. If you haven't seen it I highly recommend it.

Now I have a daughter and I am going to teach her the truth, I'm still not sure about what I should teach her about death because I'm sure it will come up, especially since we have lots of animals. Most people say their dog has gone to doggy heaven, which is nice to say to a kid but that goes against everything i believe.

I'm going to do more reading about Atheism, I always thought that to not believe in god means you're an Atheist. But it's seems more involved than that. Anyway I hope I didn't bore you too much. :cool:

[davo]

well technically your an atheist if you do not have a belief in a god, if your 'godless', so yes your an atheist ;)

Saying that, a lot of people have said even here that it's more than that. I for one disagree, as do others, like anything their is various ideas ... but simply the thing that we have in common is what an atheist is, someone without a belief in gods.

There is varying forms of atheism tho, there's no 'doctrine' over what an atheist encompasses in regard ideas. There is a huge amount of varying ideas and concepts amongst atheists (reading the boards a bit you will see we are all quite normally different ;) There are also a lot of things that bring us together.

There's something special about talking with other atheists, even when you disagree.

So really, being 'atheist' means different things to different people, to some it is about fighting back against oppression in their and others lives, to others it is simply the acceptance that we 'do not know', and that most everything points to their not being gods.

Whatever part of the spectrum of atheism your from, I'm just glad you have thought for yourself :)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3378/3413751273_be2fd0fb33_o.jpg

[Elbert]

Hi, Hmn,
That was very interesting. I only went to one Bible Class camp and have never felt so out of place in my life. The adults were creepy and the other kids too... all glee, glee – aren’t we good little boys and girls? I admire you for putting up with the prayers – I couldn’t. :mad:
As Davo says, being an Atheist only means you don’t believe there are gods. There's nothing else we have in common – except perhaps the desire not to have laws made to suit religions instead of humanity. I'm always surprised that people think there has to be more to life than this, therefore there is another life – a reincarnation or whatever. What could be more wonderful than this planet with its abundance of life, scenery, weather, chances... we evolved here because it was the perfect place for us. Humans have turned it into a hell for most other humans... but that’s not the fault of life.
After death, living things simply return to the state they were in before they were alive. Their physical bodies decay, and their thoughts, hopes, fears... disappear.
My biology teacher picked up a glass of water one day, sipped at it appreciatively, and announced, “Mmm… definitely French… quite old… Orleans? Joan of Arc, I think.” His point was that everything is recycled. When a body is burned, the water is driven off to join the clouds, falls as rain, fills rivers and is eventually drunk – many, many times. The solid particles are added to the soil to be taken up by plants, which are then eaten by animals... Life is a never-ending cycle of living organisms consuming dead ones. Without death, life is impossible. We can’t feed on rocks. All life is composed of the same ‘building blocks.’ There’s no difference in the structures that make up oak trees, worms, fish, or you. That’s why when you eat a dead animal or plant; you are able to reassemble the ‘building blocks’ into you.
So in that way there definitely is life after death. Not the same life, to be sure – you might become part of a coral reef, but all life is valuable, isn’t it?
Many people feel there has to be a purpose in life, but that suggests a plan and a planner. But there is neither ‘plan’ nor ‘planner’. Life simply is. And so is death; it serves an essential biological function. Apart from the obvious one of preventing overcrowding; over the millennia a seesawing balance of species has maintaining semi equilibrium that’s permitted a vast array and number of life forms to grow, multiply and die. The fact that this is the only life you're going to get makes it far too precious to waste in doing useless things like amassing vast wealth at the expense of family life or love...
Anyway, congratulations on sorting this out for yourself. :)

[Elbert]

Recently I saw the best documentary I have ever seen, Zeitgeist. Their theory on where this god stuff came from made alot of sense to me also the stuff about 9/11, scarey but probably true. If you haven't seen it I highly recommend it.:cool:
I agree... it is brilliant. everyone should watch at least the history of religions and their relationships... :)

[davo]

good stuff Elbert .. I can't remember where I heard it, I think it was someone on the board talking to a child over what death would be like (or something I came across on the net) .. but therein it spoke of putting forward to a young girl the concept of death. The parent said 'remember what it was like before you were born?' .. the kid said 'no' .. 'Well that is what it's like after you die' ... the whole story was a lot better than I put it forward, but that was the gist of it.

With the recent passing of my family member, my dog of 18 years, it's odd I feel the need to speak as if he was there, I think it's familiarity (I spoke to him all the time) .. there is comfort in the feeling somehow they haven't left us... BUT there is also comfort in the fact they are no longer here, or anywhere, the pain lies with us and no where else. I am thankful my dog is GONE, that there is no thread of existence between us lingering pain and stupidity, as Shade my dogs life was a noble thing. The moment he left, he didn't know, it's not the last days that was important, it wasn't the building of a finale .. the whole of his existence is in my mind, and it was good. so I smile :)

[Elbert]

.. the whole of his existence is in my mind, and it was good. so I smile :)
And so he lives on... in you. Will you get another?
Yes, thanks for that... death is the same as before birth.... very good.:)

[davo]

And so he lives on... in you. Will you get another?
Yes, thanks for that... death is the same as before birth.... very good.:)

No won't get another .. I only took him on as he was born of a lost dog on my loungeroom floor. I prefer my animals au-naturale.

I can understand people being close to them, of course! but, even when I was, I knew that they really shouldn't be here ... there has to be some control over pets in Australia, not to mention cloven hoof which destroy our land ... heaps of differing issues. I think just tightening the laws and continuing to tighten the laws should happen. If people really want pets, we should look at natives.

[Elbert]

A man after my own heart. I shoot all stray dogs and cats... give the neighbours one warning! we have over a hundred different birds living or passing through here, several different lizards, many types of frog, wallabies and kangaroos, bandicoots and echidnas... not one of which was here when we bought the place a dozen years ago. it was a zoological desert because they had a dog and cats. Pet food alone accounts for enormous deforestation, cultivation, pollution... and dog shit fouls the beaches and streets... definately time for some draconian legislation!

[davo]

A man after my own heart. I shoot all stray dogs and cats... give the neighbours one warning! we have over a hundred different birds living or passing through here, several different lizards, many types of frog, wallabies and kangaroos, bandicoots and echidnas... not one of which was here when we bought the place a dozen years ago. it was a zoological desert because they had a dog and cats. Pet food alone accounts for enormous deforestation, cultivation, pollution... and dog shit fouls the beaches and streets... definately time for some draconian legislation!

Oh mate sounds like heaven!! have you got a decent property or is this just the local area you live in? I did live in the warby ranges for a while on 360acres of bush, spring fed dam, stone cottage ... now I am in town as the extended family wanted my place for a holiday house .. sigh :( I was looking at getting a tipi even for moving up there again, something BIG and with flooring etc .. love tipis

Here where I am, even tho in the country, it's dry and pretty barren, there's life don't get me wrong, but not teeming. it's a really really fine balance, and it kills me seeing cats etc in our township, allowed to run free and at night. 'But they don't eat the possums' says the neighbours, but they aren't considering the skinks, the frogs, the dead that doesn't get delivered to their door ..

[Elbert]

It's just a 10 acre block, sub tropics between Noosa and Gympie, wettish sclerophyll forest, with a stream etc... the neighbours all sit on their ride on mowers keeping their blocks neat and clean and devoid of life... we're the bad boys who will burn to death if someone drops a cigarette on the roadside... there are large nature reserves nearby and a bush turkey has arrived and taken over the place ready to scratch a huge nest... she just might end up in the pot. Get your tipi [whatever that is] and go for it!

[davo]

mate just knowing the world has people in it like yourselves is just awesome :)

[hmn]

Remember cats and dogs had no choice being brought to this country and shouldn't be punished because of some idiot. I am an animal lover, cats mostly. I have 3 cats, 1 dog and a rat. It really pisses me off that cats get such a bad deal when it's the owners fault. If you look after your cats they are no problem. My cats spend most of their time inside, they are well fed so they don't bother going out of their way to catch wildlife. Why bother when there's a bowl of food inside. They catch mice, because they are easy but that's ok. Please don't shoot peoples pets, you don't realise how horrible that can be for the owner.

Also these new laws that are coming in to have you cats inside at night!! WHAT THE HELL! As a cat owner I know that's impossible. Unless you have a cat that's never been out doors then it's cruel. We have a cat door and they come and go as they please, how could they go to the toilet all night if they were locked inside?!

Anyway back to the actual subject, I have to dissagree with there being nothing after death (no offence). I believe that we have souls or spirits or something along those lines. There has been proof to make me believe this, like people seeing ghosts and stuff. We lived in a house a when I was a teenager that had a ghost. I will never claim to know what happens after death though, because there's no way to know. Except of course there being no god, I believe that HAS been proven.

[davo]

Anyway back to the actual subject, I have to dissagree with there being nothing after death (no offence). I believe that we have souls or spirits or something along those lines. There has been proof to make me believe this, like people seeing ghosts and stuff. We lived in a house a when I was a teenager that had a ghost. I will never claim to know what happens after death though, because there's no way to know. Except of course there being no god, I believe that HAS been proven.

Can you please point me to this 'proof'? :)

quite interested, as from everything I have seen there is no proof .. only conjecture over the paranormal.

We are still coming to grips with the human mind, and by far people have experienced many things that come directly from it, indeed I honestly believed I saw santa one time as a kid. The human consciousness is a direct result of the 'scaffolding' of our nervous system, without it, there is no consciousness, it cannot exist.

[hmn]

Can you please point me to this 'proof'?

Ok it's not scientific proof, but I mean from what people have seen. I keep an open mind about these sorts of things. Paranormal stuff is very interesting but we really don't know much about it to explain anything. Like my partners mum, she constantly has dreams about numbers and then she uses these numbers in lotto or at the casino, and she wins. Big amounts mostly. At first I thought she was just lucky, but she has done this quite a few times, I can't explain it but it's cool.

[davo]

maybe we have different concepts of proof and the value of it ;)

I have issues basing my whole concept of existence off what other folk have seen.

I mean, what about then considering Waco? what about all those folk that have seen lizard aliens in our midst? What about those that honestly believe in the all powerful masonic conspiracy? racist conspiracies? how do we pick and choose?

peoples past experiences and beliefs can make them do funny things in their mind, and just because someone has had luck with numbers, does not mean coincidences don't happen more than you probably realise mathematically and statistically. By far everything is based off numbers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_coincidence has a great explanation of the basis of mathematical coincidence and good article on the topic of coincidence and parapsychological events is this one (http://atheism.about.com/od/parapsychology/a/coincidence.htm).

[davo]

great video that.

[TimB]

Interesting story hmn.

It's a long term dream of mine to move out of Sydney and get a bit of land and make it as natural as possible. In the mean time I'll just try to make my tiny Sydney block as attractive to birds, lizards, frogs and possums as possible (even if they do eat my vegies).

On the ghosts. I have a few friends who say they've had ghost experiences. They are all catholic - not sure if there is a link there. I think we know too little of how the brain works to be able to exclude paranormal experiences as being just the brain doing weird stuff. I read about a surgeon operating on someones head, the patient was awake and reported floating above the bed and looking down on himself when the surgeon applied pressure to a certain part of his brain. Weird stuff. The brain is a pretty amazing bit of equipment. There are all these neurons firing and chemicals sloshing around in your head being influenced by stress, diet, drugs, past influences etc. Who knows what it can make you see/think if the conditions are right?

[hmn]

I think we know too little of how the brain works to be able to exclude paranormal experiences as being just the brain doing weird stuff.

Exactly! That's what I was trying to say, thankyou. :D I agree, my mum said she saw the ghost that lived in our old house when I was a teenager. I believe her, I didn't see it myself but I witnessed the front door and the sliding door open many times. I couldn't explain it. Sorry Davo, I know you've probably got an explaination for it haha ;).

I have issues basing my whole concept of existence off what other folk have seen.

I mean, what about then considering Waco? what about all those folk that have seen lizard aliens in our midst? What about those that honestly believe in the all powerful masonic conspiracy? racist conspiracies? how do we pick and choose?

I just like to give most people the benefit of the doubt. I think it's up to each person to decide what to pick and choose. I think most people will find lizard aliens a bit over the top.

[davo]

I just like to give most people the benefit of the doubt. I think it's up to each person to decide what to pick and choose. I think most people will find lizard aliens a bit over the top.

Where do you draw the line with giving people the benefit of the doubt, and why? :) if you think about it, they should really be open to more than 'goddidit', or 'theghostiedidit'. A lot of things we take for granted where seen as mystical once.

I'm just putting the supernatural explanation in the same realm as lizard aliens. There's just as much evidence for either. I think it a little over the top to think we somehow have a consciousness that exists after the structures that define it are gone, and it somehow 'hangs around' as kinda an over the top explanation, a kind of leap of conclusion without evidence. I find it weird. If I 'saw a ghost' I would be checking my health, making sure I had been eating properly ... buying my mushrooms from a shop rather than picking them ...

With the amount of 'sightings' you hear about, you would think with all the attempts to get evidence around the whole world, the billions of people, there would be something in regards evidence. To date, nothing, nada, naught.

[hmn]

Where do you draw the line with giving people the benefit of the doubt, and why?

That's really hard to answer, I think you draw the line where you feel you should. Like you draw the line at anything paranormal and my line goes a little further. 'And why', gut feeling I guess. Some things are believable to me (not nessesarily to others) and some things I'll think 'BULL' straight away.

[davo]

it's interesting isn't it? :)

I suppose my 'gut feelings' are to build up solid explanations, or be happy with not knowing till I come across them ...

I don't discount paranormal, I think there is a lot of things we don't understand as yet, I just am open to them being a multitude of possibilities .. not narrowly defined as certain ones, if that makes sense. Basically I don't grab hold of one explanation and say 'that's what it's gonna be' and look for evidence to support it.

[hmn]

I think there is a lot of things we don't understand as yet, I just am open to them being a multitude of possibilities .. not narrowly defined as certain ones, if that makes sense. Basically I don't grab hold of one explanation and say 'that's what it's gonna be' and look for evidence to support it.


I agree, that's exactly how I feel. But I call these things ghosts, spirits and that kind of stuff because I have no idea what else to call them. I think we have souls or something, but I can't explain it any other way. I don't think we could ever get solid evidence to support paranormal stuff because it's beyond us, if you know what I mean.

I'm not happy with not knowing until I come across them, I want to know, but I know I'll have to wait.

Oh crap, I just realised the time, better go and clean the house before bubs wakes up, haha. You wouldn't believe, as soon as I finished typing that last sentence bubs woke up! Maybe she's psycic :p hehe.

[davo]

Thanks for putting up with me incessantly restating what I am thinking :) not having a shot at you, and glad you can see that, I just like going over for my own sake, the concepts of why I think certain things, and thus exposing myself to others thoughts on the subject, I can only learn :)

The concept of a soul I think is one that is based in our personal religious upbringings .. I certainly don't see any evidence for one, there is no more evidence for souls that there is evidence for a god of any sort. How to you reconcile your disbelief in a god, and your belief in a soul? Is there a basis for your belief in a soul? (or is it just a comfort thing, 'there must be more' etc?)

I think the concept of a soul is really one of it somehow making us feel better, but find personally I would much rather just not exist, and find comfort in that. No regrets, no watching my family grieve, and vice versa. I find a deal with death quite well knowing that there is lack of being after something dies, and more reason for me to give value to being alive.

Saying that .. what do you define as a soul? do only humans have a soul? What about animals? plants? at what point does something not have a soul? etc etc

I really think the whole concept of the soul comes directly from religion, with no other basis, and this has led to 'ghost' stories etc etc. They are a result of religion, having the concept of an afterlife, in which our identity miraculously lives on.

[hmn]

I think god and souls or spirits are 2 different things. Honestly I can't give a good argument because I have no proven facts, maybe it is just a comfort thing. But I am not 100% set in believing all this, it's just an idea that interests me.

I recently read a really good book by Louise Hay. She talked about how we are all on an evolutionary journey and that we reincarnate over and over to learn new lessons and we choose our parents. That we are all the same and all living things are one. I have to say I love this idea and it would be cool if it is true. But who knows. She also talks heaps about karma, which I believe.

[eclectic]

Remember cats and dogs had no choice being brought to this country and shouldn't be punished because of some idiot. I am an animal lover, cats mostly. I have 3 cats, 1 dog and a rat. It really pisses me off that cats get such a bad deal when it's the owners fault. If you look after your cats they are no problem. My cats spend most of their time inside, they are well fed so they don't bother going out of their way to catch wildlife. Why bother when there's a bowl of food inside. They catch mice, because they are easy but that's ok. Please don't shoot peoples pets, you don't realise how horrible that can be for the owner.

Also these new laws that are coming in to have you cats inside at night!! WHAT THE HELL! As a cat owner I know that's impossible. Unless you have a cat that's never been out doors then it's cruel. We have a cat door and they come and go as they please, how could they go to the toilet all night if they were locked inside?!


agreed, please don't shoot my cat! We are very responsible cat owners and they rarely leave our yard... but if one day they were to be a bit curious and adventurous, I hope we and they wouldn't have to suffer so permanently!

However, I disagree on the night thing - we have always kept our cats in at night - with a litter tray... and now much more conveniently with a 'cat run' down the side of the house. But we've always had cats since they were kittens and got them used to being indoor animals, which obviously makes it easier to do.

Unfortunately even well-fed cats WILL try to catch wildlife - they are hunters by nature. So I agree that they shouldn't be allowed as pets in certain areas and there should be strict laws on pet-owners. As a responsible pet owner I don't think I should have to live with no cats. speaking of which... gosh I miss my cat (he lives at my ma's house as I'm currently in a small rental).

ANYWHO... thank you for your story! Glad you've figured things out for yourself. Welcome to the forum!

[Vonnie]

She also talks heaps about karma, which I believe.
I believe karma to be complete, utter and total bunkum.

I know plenty of good people who've never knowingly done anyone any harm, yet "the karma gods" (yeah, right) keep heaping never-ending shit on them. And then, of course, there's all the baddies who never seem to get their just desserts. Say, Mugabe, for instance. Nothing that could ever happen to him now or in the future could ever come close to making him pay for the harm he's committed against untold thousands.

What about the little children who get, say, leukemia at 18 months old. What could they possibly have done to deserve that?

What goes around most certainly does not come around.

Vonnie

[TimB]

Hang on Hmn, going back a few posts, I think maybe I was misinterpreted - probably my own fault for not being clear - my apologies (was at work writing quick blah blah blah).

When I said

"I think we know too little of how the brain works to be able to exclude paranormal experiences as being just the brain doing weird stuff."

I meant we don't know much about the brain, so, some experiences are probably just the brain doing weird things NOT some experiences are definitely paranormal or anything like that.

I personnally don't believe such things as ghosts, the paranormal, supernatural etc etc. My feet are well and truly rooted in the earth where I reckon I'll end up, mind and body, when I croak.

We shouldn't underestimate the ability of the brain to maybe sometimes delude, us just a little, under some circumstances.

[Elbert]

I believe karma to be complete, utter and total bunkum.

May I add to that: souls, ghosts, reincarnation, things that go bump in the night, tooth fairies, gremlins, someone walking over my grave, and all other supernatural things.
Hmn, We live in a natural world, therefore there can be nothing supernatural in it. In other words, everything that occurrs on this planet is natural. Ipso facto, there is a natural explanation for everything. We might not know the explanation, but that doesn't mean there isn't one. Souls, ghosts, karma... are no different from leprechauns; the notion that the earth is the centre of the universe which is carried on the back of a giant tortoise; Demeter bringing the seasons and harvest; impressionable young girls seeing visions of virgins dressed in blue after a hunger winter that has starved the brain of protein....:cool: it is impossible to know the answer to everything, and foolish to postulate paranormal or supernatural causes to things one doesnt understand. :)

[hmn]

I believe karma to be complete, utter and total bunkum.

I know plenty of good people who've never knowingly done anyone any harm, yet "the karma gods" (yeah, right) keep heaping never-ending shit on them. And then, of course, there's all the baddies who never seem to get their just desserts. Say, Mugabe, for instance. Nothing that could ever happen to him now or in the future could ever come close to making him pay for the harm he's committed against untold thousands.

What about the little children who get, say, leukemia at 18 months old. What could they possibly have done to deserve that?

What goes around most certainly does not come around.

Vonnie

That's taking it a bit far. I don't believe in karma gods or anything, I probably don't even know much about karma and what it actually is meant to be. All I believe is that what goes around comes around, treat people badly and that's what will happen to you.

And Elbert I still believe there's alot more to the world or universe than we know, un natural and natural. But I think we'll just have to agree to disagree ;). At least we agree on the god thing.

[davo]

That's taking it a bit far. I don't believe in karma gods or anything, I probably don't even know much about karma and what it actually is meant to be. All I believe is that what goes around comes around, treat people badly and that's what will happen to you.

This is interesting, as my take on it is a little different than calling it karma (tho I have been guilty of calling it that), as I think we create the situations we live in to a certain extent, hence this concept of what goes around comes around etc.

I think being a 'good' person, you tend to hang out and attract other 'good' people (yea sure 'bad' people do us over, but it's not like you actively associate with someone bad, after their deed, in the long term)

Bad people tend to end up only being able to hang out with other bad people, and thus get in a cycle of 'bad things' happening to them and around them ..

I've seen this time and time again, from street level to upper class stuff, and its pretty much the same, tho you do get unfortunate things that happen, and good things that happen anywhere on the scale. The associative factors I think are more over the realms we put ourselves in socially, whatever that social group is.

hope I make sense, at least I can understand me on this :)

[davo]

So, Davo, in a nutshell, are you saying that, for instance, if I hang out in a crack house I'm sort-of bringing my own misfortune in terms of being busted, bashed, robbed etc, but if I move in Toorak-type circles I'm sort-of bringing my own misfortune when I have too much caviar-and-cocaine pie and chuck a heartie?

situational not so much in place, but in the company you keep and by what you do. I do not also say that it's a definite, it's a flowing thing and situational and changing ... but there is a thread that is there from it that has people even come to the concept of 'karma'. Yea I am trying to get forward a dynamic thing that has many exceptions, in my description.



Yeah, flippant I know, but I can see some of the situational and social associations having an effect on outcomes. That makes some sense as a causal factor.

exactly ... I think there are associations that are made from the above underlying thread that runs thru peoples lives but it's not always a definite either, as you basically go on to say. Just pointing out the effect that could be attributed to where the concept of karma comes from. a hard thing to do :)

[hmn]

You guys explained it beter than me. Maybe I shouldn't call it karma when I really don't know much about karma (I assume there's more to it than what I know). But I think you do attract what you give out.

[davo]

You guys explained it beter than me. Maybe I shouldn't call it karma when I really don't know much about karma (I assume there's more to it than what I know). But I think you do attract what you give out.

Oh I think you explained things quite well! loving the discussion. I understand where your coming from, and how darn hard it is to verbalise, just exploring the concepts presented, and learning myself, how I do that is by rambling on it :)

I just go over stuff and over it, so I learn better how to express myself, while investigating an idea or thought I have that's sparked by anothers comments. Sometimes this pisses people off as they see it as an attack, but most definitely it's not. One of the reasons I love atheistic discussion, as I can push myself on held concepts I have, or reinforce why I have them, or crumble them and take on others. I'm the first to say I can be stubborn in that regard :) tho at the same time, doing so is frightening :)

Usually the process leads to being more critical of your own perceptions and what builds them, which in turn is a good thing, at least for me.

Thinking out loud is great, especially amongst friends, and I do it a bit here mainly as I would expect someone with a strong opposite opinion to put it forward. We can thrust it out in discussion, hopefully both sides (including myself here) being open to being wrong. I love the epiphany when I long held belief of mine, that I have been holding onto either knowingly or unkowingly is shattered when another can put forward to me something that makes sense. love it, the feeling of your whole world view changing as you get to grips with your knew thought process on the idea. I suppose most all of my discussions are looking again for that moment, like a drug :o total transparency with where you are coming from is at one end frightening, and at the other, enlightening.

so bare with me sometimes while I do this stuff, it's therapeutic for me :) I am still wondering how to best verbalise this karma idea

[eclectic]

I think a true concept of karma, in a buddhist sort of way, only works with reincarnation - because it simply isn't the case that people in this lifetime get their comeuppance. I know it would be lovely if they DID, but they do NOT. So a concept of reincarnation is needed to account for this, saying that people get the karma LATER. And as reincarnation just can't occur... this karma thing can't be the case. I used to like the idea, but with my gradual letting go of the mumbo-jumbo and facing reality, I realised that I would just have to accept that karma doesn't happen.

I personally take comfort in the idea that 'bad' people can't surely be as happy as me. I know some of them SEEM happy, with their lots of money and smug smiles at getting away with being evil bastards... but I know, that deep down inside, they aren't truly content with themselves, or satisfied with what MUST be only shallow relationships with other human beings, and the greed is all just desperately trying to fill a deep, aching hole inside themselves.... right?

[davo]

not always I think.

I think a lot of the real bastards in the world are living it up.

Not all, but a lot, I think there is a general trend that good people have good lives even if hard lives, as I was saying, but there's plenty of exceptions. The only way I can see this as stopping, is the ability for others to be exploited be taken away, and to me, that means trying to remove hierarchical structures that hold this ability up. I don't see any other way under the current organisational methods we have, capitalism, statism etc etc, as there being any foreseeable change from that. it's cannibalism, hence I like to explore ideas that remove these types of structures, in the workplace, decision making, social groups, sexism, racism, etc I think it's a slow progression, with no definitive end point. I think also not reaching for goals that others 'deem important to define happyness' is also very important.

[Vonnie]

I can't believe that rational people are even entertaining the idea of karma!

Davo, I think you're being a little diplomatic. Surely, you don't actually believe in karma, or some flimsy concept of it? Mr Black hit the nail on the head. Living in a crack den and having shitty things happen is not karma!

Sorry, I can't tiptoe around this. Karma is a bullshit supernatural concept.

So, in this thread atheists have professed their belief in ghost/spirits (or something similar), reincarnation (or something similar), karma (or something similar).

Atheists believing in the supernatural. Good grief. How embarrassing.

Vonnie

[davo]

There is a difference between the supernatural, and the paranormal.

I am open to fact and possibility, I am open to the idea that there are things we don't yet understand. It's the basis of science isn't it???

In the discussions above, I am looking at a realistic concept of how the idea of 'karma' exists as it does in the mainstream (not reincarnation karma) but the concept of doing good things means more good things happen to and around you.

I don't see how saying that good people attract other good people, and that bad people attract other bad people over a period of time, is in any way 'supernatural'.

When I refer to paranormal, I refer to things that are not able to currently be explained by science, and there is material in this realm. If it can't be explained by current science, does NOT mean it does not exist.

So please point me at where I am 'believing in the supernatural'

[davo]

This is interesting, as my take on it is a little different than calling it karma (tho I have been guilty of calling it that), as I think we create the situations we live in to a certain extent, hence this concept of what goes around comes around etc.


I was trying to explain, and explore, the concepts around what the general populace outside of those 'religious' in the aspect of Karma, refer to as 'karma'

In the above I think I am pretty clear in saying I think the 'effect' that brings about this concept is based in solid, realistic, social occurrences.

ie: we create situations by our actions that define 'good things' happening to us, or bad things. I did mention that it is a thread of effect. Generally bad people do not have good experiences .. generally good people have good experiences.

It's called social science, and it is the basis of why apes are social creatures, along with man. It is something that is there, and this is what I was pointing to in my discussions, as the source for effect that some people call 'karma'

[Vonnie]

In the above I think I am pretty clear in saying I think the 'effect' that brings about this concept is based in solid, realistic, social occurrences.

ie: we create situations by our actions that define 'good things' happening to us, or bad things. I did mention that it is a thread of effect. Generally bad people do not have good experiences .. generally good people have good experiences.

Excellent. This is what I was wanting (hoping) to hear from you. That is not "karma".

It's called social science, and it is the basis of why apes are social creatures, along with man.

Correct. It's not karma.

It is something that is there, and this is what I was pointing to in my discussions, as the source for effect that some people call 'karma'

Those people are wrong in calling it karma. It's not. (It's like calling a koala a bear. It's not a bear, and those who say it is are simply wrong.) Calling it karma confuses the issue between the supernatural and the real, as does not pulling up people who insist on doing so.

Vonnie

[davo]

Those people are wrong in calling it karma. It's not. (It's like calling a koala a bear. It's not a bear, and those who say it is are simply wrong.) Calling it karma confuses the issue between the supernatural and the real, as does not pulling up people who insist on doing so.


Yes, hence why I approached the subject trying to explain what it was, not supernatural, but an effect that can be explained ;)

[Vonnie]

I understand that. But I had to force the point due to someone's response: "But I think you do attract what you give out" (which is the what a lot of people call "karma"), which I think is a bit airy fairy woo woo.

Vonnie

[hmn]

Well wheather you want to call it karma or not, it doesn't really matter to me. I still believe you attract what you give out, mostly. If you're always thinking negatively then that's what you'll attract and the same if you're positive. Haven't you heard of laughter is the best medicine, it's true. You don't have to believe in god to believe in other things. There's so much we can't explain, my patners mum is a naturopath and I have been cronically (sp?) ill for 11 years and counting, she has done some amazing treatments on me that I can't explain. All I know is they work. I've been seeing conventional doctors for 10 years and not one could figure out whats wrong, and I've seen HEAPS. They've pretty much said nothings wrong like I'm a hypocondriac (sp?). I've been seeing a holistic doctor and now I'm very close to a diagnoses. After 11 years it has taken one doctor that combines conventional medicine with natural. Keeping an open mind is a great thing!

Sorry about the spelling, get that from my dad, haha!

[davo]

I understand that. But I had to force the point due to someone's response: "But I think you do attract what you give out" (which is the what a lot of people call "karma"), which I think is a bit airy fairy woo woo.

yea I see this however as having a basis in fact however, not so much airy fairy woo woo. (love that I am going to use that;) and that's what we have been discussing. Maybe just briefly looking over the discussion it comes across differently, but I was trying to gently approach the subject, based on what a person was saying, and not the preconceptual standards of the strict references of the word, that if we wanted to be hard core about, we would just blast the hell out of someone for trying to get a point across ;) I was interpreting what someone was trying to say, hopefully correctly. Hence my comments on how we learn to put forward ourselves in discussions.

I do believe (if that's the right word here, as I am pretty sure it's fact) 'what goes around comes around' in the common paradigm that if you do good stuff, good stuff will come back to you, and vikky verka.

for instance, an argumentative person kinda has a lot of arguments, others will argue with them ...

A violent person, will tend to promote themselves being in violent situations, probably around other violent people, and inevitably have violence come to them ...

A weak willed person, will be exploited, and it gets worse as others work out they can be exploited ...

ad nauseum.

As mentioned, I don't think a lot of people understand how to put forward this concept, and either do I .. there's not really a word to describe what is the effect, thus many people refer to it (incorrectly as you state) as 'karma'. I think this is what was inadvertently put forward originally as well by the OP.

For instance, let's look at the situation of a social group of apes and break it down to that in simple terms. One ape may be violent all the time .. those that are not will end up staying away from it, others will pick up on the attitude of the ape, and keep clear. Younger apes may try it on with the angry ape, to prove themselves, or to keep the peace when the angry ape looks the wrong way at others etc. That angry ape, is attracting anger and 'bad' things.

Another ape, cleans and comforts others. Other apes feel comfortable with that ape, and hang around it. They give it gifts as they know that in turn they will receive. Other apes will stand in to protect this ape from the angry ape even just looking at it wrongly, and this particular ape get's to sit with a banana in comfort a lot more.

Now this doesn't stop the angry ape or others exploiting that nice ape, or stop violence from particularly happening, but what that ape has projected in its social unit, has 'come back to it'. Same with the angry ape.

This effect is what leads many people today to refer to it as 'karma', whether that is wrong or right, people do. Most all that I speak to that have used the term are not referring to reincarnation karma. Most would scoff at that, yet they understand what is implicitly the natural course of where we are moralistic beings. Our basis of our morals and social cohesion comes from this effect. It is a mutual thing.

in simplistic terms yes, what goes around, comes around in this regard, nothing airy fairy about it, just there is not a good name for it in society, hence people wrongly use the term 'karma' to describe this. I am pretty sure most are not referring to 'something coming back to them' in the next life!

really interesting discussion I think

[davo]

whereas the concept that there can be natural occuring products that aid health is realistic (eg: get out in the sun more, physical activity, swimming with regard asthma etc), unfortunately naturopathy in reality is full of quackery, when it is not an extension of the medical field.

The only 'naturopathy', or 'naturally occuring medicine' I would consider is that which is mentioned by my doctor, as just a 'naturopath' has not the extensive knowledge of all medicine that is needed for accurate diagnoses, and can in fact diagnose incorrectly due to this, and excacerbate medical conditions. They do not have the knowledge to understand and diagnose based on genetics for instance, they say they are holistic, but in fact miss a whole slab of knowledge and concepts

[Vonnie]

I do believe (if that's the right word here, as I am pretty sure it's fact) 'what goes around comes around' in the common paradigm that if you do good stuff, good stuff will come back to you, and vikky verka.

Sometimes, not always. It is not a rule. It is not fact. And it's not karma.

for instance, an argumentative person kinda has a lot of arguments, others will argue with them ...

A violent person, will tend to promote themselves being in violent situations, probably around other violent people, and inevitably have violence come to them ...

A weak willed person, will be exploited, and it gets worse as others work out they can be exploited ...Oftentimes. But it's not a rule, there are plenty of exceptions. And it's not karma.

As mentioned, I don't think a lot of people understand how to put forward this concept, and either do I .. there's not really a word to describe what is the effect, thus many people refer to it (incorrectly as you state) as 'karma'. I think this is what was inadvertently put forward originally as well by the OP.There isn't one word to describe it. It's the secular golden rule: treat others as you wish to be treated. Sometimes you treat people well, and they treat you well back. Sometimes they treat you like shit back.

People who call it "karma" are wrong. Dare I say, ignorant? (A koala isn't a bear, no matter how many people think it is.)

<Snipped lots of obvious stuff about apes...>

This effect is what leads many people today to refer to it as 'karma', whether that is wrong or right, people do. Most all that I speak to that have used the term are not referring to reincarnation karma. Most would scoff at that, yet they understand what is implicitly the natural course of where we are moralistic beings. Our basis of our morals and social cohesion comes from this effect. It is a mutual thing.If most people call this karma, then most people are completely wrong. Mass ignorance doesn't make something correct.

in simplistic terms yes, what goes around, comes around in this regard, nothing airy fairy about it, Rubbish. What goes around sometimes comes around. Not always, and in some cases, never. And, in any case, regardless of how many people wrongly believe that is karma, it's not.

just there is not a good name for it in society, hence people wrongly use the term 'karma' to describe this. I am pretty sure most are not referring to 'something coming back to them' in the next life!I get that they are not referring to the karma/reincarnation thing. But "send out good/bad and good/bad will come back" is not fact, is not a rule and is, frankly, a crock.

Vonnie

[davo]

I'm not arguing for the concept of karma vonnie, I am arguing that there is a thread of something that exists and this is where people are getting this idea, and calling it karma. I am not saying it is right to do that!!!!! I am not saying karma exists.

I have never said it is a rule either, I have said there are exceptions the whole time. I do believe however that it generally does happen. When I stated 'fact', I am talking about the evolution of morals and it coming from the 'fact' that 'what goes around comes around' (for want of a word/description as there is none) does happen. I have tried explaining that evolution as best of my meagre ability in that area, and not sure why this moralistic evolution, as described also by Richard Dawkins (a LOT better than me) is not a 'fact'. It's observable, testable and the foundation for morals that atheists put forward against the misconceptions of religion all the time.

I can see your totally focussed on 'killing the word karma', but I think you are failing to see I am not even talking about karma other than smashing the foundations of where people are going wrong with attributing fact to it, by trying to state the solid scientific reasons people are attributing to 'what goes around comes around' and wrongly (as you quite rightly point out) attributing to karma.

I KNOW it's not karma, that's what I have been saying ALL ALONG. :P I am beyond that, I am talking about the basis that people are wrongly attributing to the term.

sheesh, am I that misinterpreted? :( is it totally out of the realm trying to put in solid scientific terms peoples misconceptions that they label as 'karma' here without someone just focussing on 'you should not be using the term karma'?

how can I attack the foundation for this concept that people hold without using the word?

cheers

[Vonnie]

I'm not arguing for the concept of karma vonnie, I am arguing that there is a thread of something that exists and this is where people are getting this idea, and calling it karma. I am not saying it is right to do that!!!!! I am not saying karma exists.

I know I'm being very, very, very pedantic but... there is no "thread". To say that there is gives some credence to the concept of karma.

I have never said it is a rule either, I have said there are exceptions the whole time. I do believe however that it generally does happen. Again, being very, very pedantic - because it's actually important to me that other people do not misunderstand and think for one second that you actually may believe in any kind of a karma concept (because I hold you high esteem) - I believe that when you say "it generally does happen" you mean, for instance, if people hang around in crack houses, their lives may generally be shit. Not always, and, sometimes, not even most often. That you agree that this has nothing to do with karma (in any definition of the word), it has everything to do with circumstance and, often, chance?

When I stated 'fact', I am talking about the evolution of morals and it coming from the 'fact' that 'what goes around comes around' (for want of a word/description as there is none) does happen. Ah, see I take exception to "does happen". It happens sometimes. Sometimes by circumstance, sometimes by chance, sometimes by will. Never by what people wrongly attribute to karma/woo woo/"the universe"/.

I have tried explaining that evolution as best of my meagre ability in that area, and not sure why this moralistic evolution, as described also by Richard Dawkins (a LOT better than me) is not a 'fact'. It's observable, testable and the foundation for morals that atheists put forward against the misconceptions of religion all the time.It's known as the "secular golden rule", i.e. treat others as you wish to be treated. As you say, and as Richard explains, it's evolutionary, e.g. if you delouse me, I may well just delouse you. (But maybe not, if I'm "higher up" than you, or if I don't want to make the "top dog" jealous, etc.) If you share your food with me, I may well share my food with you. (But, maybe not if, again, I'm the top dog. I may just take what I consider to be "mine" anyway.)

I can see your totally focussed on 'killing the word karma', but I think you are failing to see I am not even talking about karma other than smashing the foundations of where people are going wrong with attributing fact to it, by trying to state the solid scientific reasons people are attributing to 'what goes around comes around' and wrongly (as you quite rightly point out) attributing to karma.It's not the word that's the problem, it's the concept. There is no such thing as karma. People could all it "cabbage", and the concept would still be irrational. The secular golden rule is an excellent basis to live by - and I teach it to my children - but what goes around does not always come around - and I also teach that to my children.

I KNOW it's not karma, that's what I have been saying ALL ALONG. :P I am beyond that, I am talking about the basis that people are wrongly attributing to the term.Okay, I think it's clear now! :)


sheesh, am I that misinterpreted? :( is it totally out of the realm trying to put in solid scientific terms peoples misconceptions that they label as 'karma' here without someone just focussing on 'you should not be using the term karma'?No, it's not the word in particular, it's the concept.

how can I attack the foundation for this concept that people hold without using the word?See above. And attack away! :)

Vonnie

[hmn]

Good grief! This title should be Woo Story...

I'd ask for evidence but I'll just get the old gut feeling crap.. anyway placebos work best with hypochondria.

I suppose you think homeopathy is a real medicine as well?

Ok this makes me angry, I've been through alot the last tens years. I am NOT a hypochondriac, as I said I am almost at a diagnoses. Conventional doctors have done nothing for me, just made me feel like I'm bothering them or I'm making up my symptoms, they are useless! And yes Homeopathy is realy medicine, I wasn't sure about it at first but if you give it a go you'll realise it acually works. I choose natural treatments over drugs all the time, why put poisons into your body when there's a safer alternative? Of course sometimes you have to use conventional medicine. Most conventional medicines just mask the problem, naturopaths and homeopaths treat the cause. If you believe the world is all natural and all that then I would think you would consider natural treatments, since they are all from the earth and not messed with in a lab.

[balans]

Whoa whoa woo woo.....

Homeopathy is a real medicine, you do know that it is diluted right down to just being water don't you?

As for Naturopathy I'm not against using naturally occuring plants and the chemicals within them as a cure if they are shown to work. However do a decent scientific trial, a simple double blind test is all that most skeptics ask to be able to give credence to natural cures. I have to go to an interview now, but I will surely have more to say on this if the debate is still going next time I log in.

[davo]

great stuff vonnie as mentioned I like doing this stuff! :)

I know I'm being very, very, very pedantic but... there is no "thread". To say that there is gives some credence to the concept of karma.

I agree there is no thread that gives credence to the concept of karma, I do however think there is a thread, I recognisable chain of events, that leads people to attribute it to karma. If I have been miscontrued on this I'm sorry. I have assumed the whole way along people understood the concepts I was trying to put forward, possibly too lightly to someone open to atheism, but with some certain preconceptions (as you can see coming out atm). I was undermining without flat out hitting them with a bat ;) THONK! :\


Again, being very, very pedantic - because it's actually important to me that other people do not misunderstand and think for one second that you actually may believe in any kind of a karma concept (because I hold you high esteem) - I believe that when you say "it generally does happen" you mean, for instance, if people hang around in crack houses, their lives may generally be shit. Not always, and, sometimes, not even most often. That you agree that this has nothing to do with karma (in any definition of the word), it has everything to do with circumstance and, often, chance?

Yea for sure, as I have mentioned. Maybe my associations to try and identify why many hold the 'goes around comes around' stuff was lame, and not clear over what I meant by thread, which is basically the 'occurance of'.

Normally with deep set held convictions that are based on belief, I am pretty hard on to smash the veneer, but in this case, I went possibly too easy in trying to get the OP to see that the association was not karma, but picking out what happens, and identifying that 'thread' as karma, without consideration of how folk will read it, and the way I was putting it forward.

Good things DO happen to good people (as I have mentioned elsewhere on the forum, there's a lot of 'good' things that happen to a lot of 'bad' people too).


Ah, see I take exception to "does happen". It happens sometimes. Sometimes by circumstance, sometimes by chance, sometimes by will. Never by what people wrongly attribute to karma/woo woo/"the universe"/.

yep, and when those good things happen people attribute it to karma, yes wrongly. I would add 'sometimes because being nice to people has others be nice to you', which is what I am getting at, badly by the look of it.


It's known as the "secular golden rule", i.e. treat others as you wish to be treated. As you say, and as Richard explains, it's evolutionary, e.g. if you delouse me, I may well just delouse you. (But maybe not, if I'm "higher up" than you, or if I don't want to make the "top dog" jealous, etc.) If you share your food with me, I may well share my food with you. (But, maybe not if, again, I'm the top dog. I may just take what I consider to be "mine" anyway.)


Why is it a golden rule if there is no common thread of morality or benefit that it is based on? Why would we bother? the goodness of our heart? I think there is the reason that it is because we get something out of 'being good'. As dawkins has mentioned, apes are social beings because it helps or benefits them. This is the 'thread' I am talking about, that some are attributing to karma, or 'what goes around comes around'. If there was NO association between acting 'good' in a social system, there would be little basis for 'accepted' social morals, and the statement by evolutionary bioligists that morals have been 'built' into us, as they are effective. This would mean that morals are a chance concept?

I disagree. I think there is a solid evolutionary reasoning mankind and other social animals have 'good' morals, and they outweigh 'bad' morals. I think we are inherantly good due to that. That 'thread' is what I am talking about.



It's not the word that's the problem, it's the concept. There is no such thing as karma. People could all it "cabbage", and the concept would still be irrational. The secular golden rule is an excellent basis to live by - and I teach it to my children - but what goes around does not always come around - and I also teach that to my children.


Why is the secular golden rule an excellent basis to live by? it just 'is'? or are there quantifiable benefits for living by it? :)

If it doesn't actually have any benefit, why are we as humans geared to pass the concept on to our children? Where do 'morals' come from?

[hmn]

Whoa whoa woo woo.....

Am I taking this the wrong way or is this a dig at my health? :(

[Vonnie]

Why is it a golden rule if there is no common thread of morality or benefit that it is based on? Ah, morality. That's a different matter! What's moral to me, may not be moral to my next door neighbour. But I won't muddy the waters on that one.

Why would we bother? the goodness of our heart? I think there is the reason that it is because we get something out of 'being good'. I don't believe we were talking about morality... We were talking about the golden rule - that evolutionary thing which the religious have hijacked as their own - which is different to being moral, and different even to "being good". (Although I believe that most true "morals" too are evolutionary (and by "true", I don't mean the irrational ones such as some religious say it's immoral to show too much skin, and stuff like that). It's all about mutual benefits. :) As Dawkins says, I scratch your back in the hope that you'll scratch mine when I get an itch. And I probably would. Except if your skin was weeping, pussy*, or scabby! Eeeeewwww! (*Phonetically: puss-ee, as in oozing pus, as opposed to feline... not sure how to spell it!)

As dawkins has mentioned, apes are social beings because it helps or benefits them. This is the 'thread' I am talking about, that some are attributing to karma, or 'what goes around comes around'. If there was NO association between acting 'good' in a social system, there would be little basis for 'accepted' social morals, and the statement by evolutionary bioligists that morals have been 'built' into us, as they are effective. This would mean that morals are a chance concept? I believe the golden rule and "morals" to be two separate issues (although not necessarily mutually exclusive). In the ape example (and it's the same for human apes), it's not so much "what goes around come around", it's what is most beneficial to me is probably beneficial to you too.

I disagree. What, that morals are a chance concept? I disagree too! (So, who are we disagreeing with then???) Although, we are melding two separate (but as I said before, not necessarily mutually exclusive) issues. Morality, and "I'll scratch your back in the hope that you'll scratch mine".

I think there is a solid evolutionary reasoning mankind and other social animals have 'good' morals, and they outweigh 'bad' morals. I think we are inherantly good due to that. That 'thread' is what I am talking about.I think we're pretty much on the same page, mate.

Why is the secular golden rule an excellent basis to live by? it just 'is'? or are there quantifiable benefits for living by it? :) Benefits, of course. I hate an itchy back.

If it doesn't actually have any benefit, why are we as humans geared to pass the concept on to our children? Where do 'morals' come from?It does have benefits, and we do pass the concepts to our children. (Well, I do anyway...) :)

Vonnie

[hmn]

And yet yours appears to be closed to all conventional medicine due to a small sampling of GPs.

I have an open mind about conventional medicines, but I am very wary of them. When I go back to see my doc, if he recommends conventional drugs for my treatment I will consider them. And it wasn't a small sampling of GPs, over 10 years that's alot of incompetent GPs. Mind you they were all bulk bill GPs so maybe that has something to do with it, my new holistic doctor doesn't bulk bill and he acually gives you time and is interested in ALL my symptoms.

[davo]

I believe the golden rule and "morals" to be two separate issues (although not necessarily mutually exclusive). In the ape example (and it's the same for human apes), it's not so much "what goes around come around", it's what is most beneficial to me is probably beneficial to you too.

I actually don't get that statement, it's kinda a reversal of what I was saying? :confused:

eg: put it in the context of a monkey scratching anothers back, and the fact they do it at all, which is because the same could be done back yea?... maybe I am TOTALLY missing the difference in what I am saying to what has been presented :(

to me, they are putting something good out there, that could mean good stuff comes back (not sure why this description is so wrong)

to you above, they are doing something beneficial for themselves, which is probably beneficial for the monkey they are scratching?

doesn't sound as simple ...

(by the way, the 'I disagree' was in referral to the sentence previous chapter where I finished on morals being a 'chance', so I was knocking down my own question presented .. gee I am confusing myself now :)

[balans]

Am I taking this the wrong way or is this a dig at my health? :(

How can pointing out that Naturopathy and homeopathy are woo woo quakery be a dig at your health?

[Vonnie]

I actually don't get that statement, it's kinda a reversal of what I was saying? :confused:

eg: put it in the context of a monkey scratching anothers back, and the fact they do it at all, which is because the same could be done back yea?... maybe I am TOTALLY missing the difference in what I am saying to what has been presented :(

to me, they are putting something good out there, that could mean good stuff comes back (not sure why this description is so wrong)To me, and I believe I got it from Richard, it's not so much "putting something good out there" as doing something beneficial for another so that, hopefully, they'll do the same for you. I don't believe it's "doing good" - it's actually a selfish act because it's done with the expectation of getting something back. But, it benefits the individual, and it benefits those who reciprocate. So, a "selfish" act (i.e. it's not done because it's "good" to do so, it's done on a "hopefully reciprocal" basis) becomes beneficial (which is what you are calling "doing good").

Of course, scratching/grooming, etc can also be about bonding, and placement in the pack/tribe, etc. And, with the development of the human mind, language, reasoning, etc, empathy plays a bigger part in all of this.

For instance, we give probably more than we can afford to various (secular) charities on a monthly direct debit basis: Fred Hollows, Amnesty International, Medicines Sans Frontieres, WSPA, Australian Conservation Foundation. As well, we give to (secular) charities on an ad hoc basis: Red Cross, Angel Flight, Royal Flying Doctors, RACQ CareFlight, etc.

Do I expect to ever benefit from this in any way? In all honesty - no. Why do I give money when we could put it to really good use (i.e. reduce our horrendous credit cards bills)? Because I have very large doses of empathy running through my veins. And so do my children, because they've learnt it from me. They have happily donated all of the money in their money boxes at various times - even when I've tried to talk them out of it - because of their empathy. And they certainly don't ever expect to get anything out of it.

Sorry, I kind of digressed from the "doing good" vs "beneficial selfishness" train of thought. But empathy is another evolutionary component of the bigger picture, and one that sits better with me. The fact is, I'd probably scratch your back because I felt sorry for you, rather than any other reason.

Anyway, back to the topic... What you are calling "doing good", I am calling "selfishness in the hope of a reciprocal beneficial act". Same result, so I guess in the big picture, it doesn't matter. We agree that it's evolutionary, we agree that it's not karma, so I'm prepared to let you get away with calling it "doing good" (although you'd have to drag me kicking and screaming for me to call it that!) :p

Vonnie

[davo]

I was using the terms 'good' and 'bad' to start with in quotes, as I do realise these are circumstantial, I suppose 'good' and 'bad' were not these best terms that led to confusion over what I was saying, and typical me, jumped in making comments before I really thought out the big picture. I mentioned I was having a hard time putting the concepts into words, in future, I'll spend a bit more time thinking that opening my mouth :) hehehehe

My interpretation of doing something 'beneficial' for someone else .. was doing 'good'.

However I stand corrected with the way you have presented it! very nice!!! (in Borat voice;)

thanks vonnie! :)

http://warisboring.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/borat-mankini-62408-1.jpg

[Vonnie]

No problemo! (Sorry for being so pedantic, too.)

<Said in "Bazza's" voice>

http://tizona.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/careys_mankini.jpg

http://tizona.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/carey_5.jpg

Vonnie

[davo]

nope not pedantic anymore than I am, and I can be pretty stubborn let me tell you. I think it's important and love thrashing out something that may seem small, but is vitally important for reason.

and I appreciate the patience with me over it! MORE! :)

[davo]

whos bazza? (ignorant)

[Vonnie]

He's a guy with a very hungry bum... ;)

Vonnie

[Elbert]

Good grief! This title should be Woo Story...
I suppose you think homeopathy is a real medicine as well?
Apparently there isn't enough water on the planet to make the dilutions they claim for their 'preparations'.
...as described also by Richard Dawkins (a LOT better than me)
I reckon you're as good as Richard.... very impressed am I with your elucidatory skills and clarity of thought. :)
Am I taking this the wrong way or is this a dig at my health? :( Never take offence on this forum, Hmn.... no one wants to ridicule you, they write what they think in the expectation that you might get something of value from it. It isn't personal.
No wonder, if he's just feeding it strips of lettuce. Mr Black, you have the one of quirkiest and funniest minds I've had the good fortune to encounter... Lettuce!:D I'm a bit worried about the tight string he has under his gut... what if it breaks? I wonder why those two posed in that thong...neither man is a thing of beauty...:( Few women with a public profile would be photographed looking so unwholesome...