Do they have the right to...

[Kpeeb]

Hi all, this is my first post here, and it's regarding a serious issue for me.

First of all, I'm in year 11 at a catholic school in Victoria and I'm a passionate atheist. My parents are both secular and I was never baptised.

I am personally apalled and offended by the Catholic church and their practises. My parents wanted me to have a private education, however there is no secular private schools in my region, so I was forced to go to a catholic school in that regard.

I have had to go to many school masses, however I am sick and tired of going to their celebrations when I have no belief in it.

Now here's my question.

Does the school have the right to force me to celebrate and participate in their masses even though I am an atheist? If I am found out to be skipping masses (as I have been doing) I will have to face the principal and possibly be told to leave the school.

I have participated (painfully) in RE classes since year 7 which is fair because I signed up to the catholic school system, but I think it is unconstitutional (Australia/Victoria) and against my right to freedom of religion to force me to participate in masses.

Am I wrong here? Will my argument be reasonable if I ever get contested?

Thanks.

[Darwinsbulldog]

Hi all, this is my first post here, and it's regarding a serious issue for me.

First of all, I'm in year 11 at a catholic school in Victoria and I'm a passionate atheist. My parents are both secular and I was never baptised.

I am personally apalled and offended by the Catholic church and their practises. My parents wanted me to have a private education, however there is no secular private schools in my region, so I was forced to go to a catholic school in that regard.

I have had to go to many school masses, however I am sick and tired of going to their celebrations when I have no belief in it.

Now here's my question.

Does the school have the right to force me to celebrate and participate in their masses even though I am an atheist? If I am found out to be skipping masses (as I have been doing) I will have to face the principal and possibly be told to leave the school.

I have participated (painfully) in RE classes since year 7 which is fair because I signed up to the catholic school system, but I think it is unconstitutional (Australia/Victoria) and against my right to freedom of religion to force me to participate in masses.

Am I wrong here? Will my argument be reasonable if I ever get contested?

Thanks.

Something I would suggest you discuss with your parents. Perhaps they could meet and discuss these matters with the school principal. I have a feeling that the principal won't budge much. I suggest you sell the idea of a public school to your parents.

[Logic]

Does the school have the right to force me to celebrate and participate in their masses even though I am an atheist? If I am found out to be skipping masses (as I have been doing) I will have to face the principal and possibly be told to leave the school.



I would suggest it depends on the rules of the school. I'm guessing by paying the fees your parents thereby agree to some 'contract' which may be able to be enforced in a legal sense if that's what you are getting at.

In other words, sux to be at a catholic school, but you may just have to put up with the shit that comes with it.

[Podo]

I can speak from personal experience here.. sort of

I went to a christian highschool (Trinity Grammar) but only because my parents wanted to send me to a private school,, the religious side was unimportant.

Technically, they can insist you attend, but, that simply means having your name ticked off the role. I would suggest you do what I do when attending a wedding or funeral in church. that is,, participate in the non religious parts, but respectfully sit quietly during the prayers and other religous parts. I dont know much about a catholic service so I dont know the deliniation between the two, but use your lack of faith to make up your own mind on that.

Also, by attending you might learn a lot about the whole debacle. Your best defence is knowledge, so as suggested, take notes, question, research, you will a very well informed athiest and thats a good thing

Just remember, they can make you attend but they cant make you pray

I hope that helps

[Lord Blackadder]

I feel your pain - thirteen years of Catholic education through the NSW system made me a very diligent little atheist... :D

Take the advice of Mr. Black and Podo. Use your time wisely, young Jedi to arm yourself with knowledge. Knowledge is power.

[Jez]

Of course they have the right to, but you also have the right to wag.

[davros]

Several people have said that the school may have the right to enforce its religious standards and can ask you to leave if you don't. I don't know if that's correct or not - it may be for an *independent* catholic school. However, it is important to know that if your school is a *systemic* catholic school they have much less independence.

Systemic catholic schools are run by the catholic education office and they disburse funding on the behalf of the government. These are usually the lower-fee schools while independent catholic schools are usually run by independent foundations or sects. The independent catholic schools are more like genuine private schools and deal direct with the government over their funding.

If you are at a systemic catholic school it may be worth getting advice from someone more knowledgeable on this, as I suspect their authority to suspend or expel you would be quite circumscribed compared to an independent school.

[Podo]

Several people have said that the school may have the right to enforce its religious standards and can ask you to leave if you don't. I don't know if that's correct or not - it may be for an *independent* catholic school. However, it is important to know that if your school is a *systemic* catholic school they have much less independence.

.

What I said was the school may have the right to enforce your attendance. If that means sitting at the back and not participating, then so be it.

[66 vegie]

Hi.

You could try to finish your schooling at TAFE...you have people from all walk's of life there....and no one can force you to live by there rules.

[Praxis]

Hi and welcome :)

My son also attends a Catholic college, for want of any decent alternative.

He uses mass as a time to close his eyes and meditate and just chill out. He doesn't take any notice of it (although I assume he does the up/down thing when everyone else does).

You're in Year 11. Not long to go. You can hang out for a while longer. Use the time to collect your thoughts, go through study stuff, whatever. It's all meaningless drone anyway (can be quite soporific actualy).

There are more things for you to be concerned about right now. You'll be right!

All the best.

[Podo]

As an aside, my sons trumpet teacher is the music teacher at a catholic school. She only took it because it was a paying job. Part of her employment contract is that she has to attend the school mass, so she just sits there, enjoys the music, but lets the rest just drift past.. She does a lot of mental planning for other things during that time.

These catholics sure like forcing their crap upon anyone they can it seems

[kencooke]

Podo is probably correct in that your parents have probably in effect entered into a contract with the school and they and hence you are bound by that.

When I was at a private anglican boarding school I also took Prodo's option of just sitting quietly and politely in the school chapel during the service.

For more about your legal rights see my posting on another thread (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showpost.php?p=80138&postcount=13).

[Yarra]

There's no future in the martyr industry. So true, the words 'it’s the principle' are music to the ears of lawyers.

Their school their rules.

It’s a pity your parents are unable to find a state school they are happy with, mind you when it comes to religion there is probably no escape while in school.

I sometimes wonder if the private school thing is a bit of a myth. My son went to state schools, none had much of a reputation and there were some rough elements, but he did well at university, even though he was not bright at school – he just persevered.

Statistically religious schools often show good results, but they are picking and choosing and can get rid of those who might harm their image. I live opposite a catholic school and most of the parents look as if they have higher than average disposable income, on top of this the school is always raising and being given money – they keep it all for themselves of course, that’s teaching a lesson in selfishness the kids could do without.

The more money per student the better the results, so the state sector does not get a fair deal. Better results doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a better school or has better teachers, let’s face it what sort of decent person or teacher would choose a catholic school to work in.

Maybe you just have to bear it until you are at university or start work.

In the mean time can you talk to your parents and see if the state sector is really as bad as they might think. If you would be more comfortable in a state school why not give it a go.

I like to think good people prosper in the end – but sometimes the ‘evidence’ doesn’t back that up. Many defence lawyers prosper despite being as bad, or worse, than the criminals they get rich looking after ..... don’t most of those gang crims have catholic funerals, money talks.

I wanted my son to be something useful and decent like a vet, plumber or electrician – but nope he is a civil servant ....... be careful what you wish for, it was always my dream that he wouldn't be a dunce like me, and that he would have a university education, that’s what I got, now I question the whole thing.

[Yarra]

When I hear of atheists sending their children to religious schools I am stunned - I just couldn’t have done that.

I don’t feel that a belief (real or imagined) that it offers a better education would have justified it for me. Not much different (to me) than going along with the Nazi’s because they had ‘nice’ youth camps or offered good education – to the chosen. I dislike all segregated education, it’s divisive.

Another disadvantage for the state sector is that families who could work towards making the state system better for everyone opt out. I don’t feel it’s just about our kids doing well, it’s about all kids having opportunities. We are all part of society and if children get left out of education (and health and good housing etc) we all suffer in the end.

Not much good having a great education if you have to live behind locked gates and are not safe catching a train at night.

Integrated schooling – it’s the only way, you would think Northern Ireland (and South Africa) taught us that.

[freedomofchoicemum]

Hi, my kids all went (& one is still attending) a systemic catholic primary school in sydney.
I just checked the application for last years year 7 to the catholic high school & it does require you to read & agree to conditions outlined in 8 documents, such as Catholic Life & Religious Education'. It then further asks you to: " If this enrolment is accepted I/we agree to support our child's participation in the religious life of the school (eg school liturgies, retreat programs).
So, I think if you are attending the school, you need to participate in the school masses etc. I'm basically in the same boat as you, except that I am an adult who in hindsight, stupidly decided to send the kids to a catholic primary school and now need to endure all that crap again.
When I go to school masses with my littliest now, I just zone out and take time to de-frag!!
The most difficult part for me is when the out-of-touch parish priest starts talking to the kids - errrrr - he really should keep his mouth shut. He is boring, insular & has no idea of his audience (kindies to year 6).
Anyhoo, as someone else wrote, they cant make you pray. I find the time just flies now that I take the opportunity for some quiet time, and zone out.....!!;)

[Artemisia]

I am a teacher at a Uniting Church school and I agree with those who say that independent schools can make attendance at religious service compulsory (as they can make other things compulsory. Participation in Saturday sport is compulsory at my school for example). I can also tell you that the Constitution (specifically s116) offers you no protection from having to attend mass as a Catholic School student.

I have always been atheist, but attended a Christian school and really enjoyed it. I voluntarily attended weekly chapel and loved the solitude and quite time for reflection (I was one of about 3 students who went). I also enjoyed my RE classes which are naturally the source of a lot of my knowledge about Christianity.

Many atheists don't take an evangelical approach, which is fine but if you want to become an 'Atheist Apologist' of sorts, then you need to know what it is you are rebutting. Whether we like it or not, many people still observe these rituals and in attending and experiencing them, you can come to understand what it is that people seek to find at Church.