Oz Atheist buses kaput?

[Simon Gardner (UK)]

So I’ve waded through umpteen posts as well as wandering the www.

Am I right in my understanding that the Australian (Sydney & Tasmania) Atheist bus campaigns have now been declared a gonner after legal avenues and disputes were exhausted?

[David Nicholls]

Hello Simon,

The Atheist Foundation of Australia Inc has attempted to place advertisements on buses in all Capital cities excluding Darwin, which has no outside advertising of any kind. The mainland states of Western Australia, South Australia, Victoria, New South Wales and Queensland bus advertising is controlled by the company, APN Outdoor. The island state of Tasmania has another independent company for advertising on public transport.

Anti-discrimination regulations in various states have slight differences. In Tasmania and Victoria, the definition of religion and no religion are the same in the transport authority regulations. Note, these are regulations and not laws as such. Consequentially, the AFA has a strong reason in stating we have suffered discrimination.

The Atheist Foundation of Australia has therefore made complaint to the government bodies responsible for overseeing discrimination in these states. We have retained the services of a lawyer in putting our grievance to the Tasmanian anti-discrimination board and the AFA has officially approached the Victorian Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission similarly. These are two distinct and separate cases. They are not before a court of law. (Yet!)

The outcome of these complaints is still in the waiting-basket with a determination expected soon. How soon, who knows, but possibly within days or weeks.

The Atheist Foundation of Australia is the only group involved in both instances of complaint. Some reporting has stated otherwise, but it is wrong.

I hope this has cleared up the situation for you Simon, and if not, just ask.

David

[Simon Gardner (UK)]

Thanks for that explanation. I gather then that there’s no real time frame. I await further developments here and good luck!

I also note there have been some stirrings in NZ (http://www.nogod.org.nz/) and on twitter (http://twitter.com/NZAtheistBus).

The others I know of are Atheist bus (http://www.atheistbus.org.uk/) • Canadian Atheist bus (http://atheistbus.ca/) • Atheist buses in Barcelona, Madrid & Malaga (http://www.busateo.org/) • Bus Kampagne, Germany (http://www.buskampagne.de/) • Bus humaniste (français), Québec, Canada (http://assohum.org/) • Campagna Bus, Italy (http://www.uaar.it/uaar/campagne/bus/) • Dutch Atheist bus campaign (http://www.atheismecampagne.nl/) • Finland Atheist bus (http://uskomaton.fi/kampanja/) • Atheist trams in Zagreb, Slovenia (http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=hp&hl=en&u=http://www.delo.si/clanek/77241&sl=sl&tl=en) banned (http://www.delo.si/clanek/77241) (Zagreb counts because it ran one day.)

[DanDare]

Is there any way for supporters to help this along? Do you need letters to the editor in National papers? Monetary donations?

[David Nicholls]

Thanks for the offer, DanDare. Probably best to let it rest for the moment. Atheism and the AFA have had a very good run out of the ‘rejection’ of our advertisements so far. Much better than if, they were actually on buses. Winning or losing the case in Tasmania will be the next step and our reaction to it dependent on the media response and other factors. So, let’s just hang in there and see what fortune brings. At that time, a call to ‘alms’ may be necessary. :)

David

[DanDare]

Is there a way we can help in order to keep the issue hot?

[TimB]

I saw an advertisment on the side of a bus this morning in Sydney for a street fighter type computer game persumably aimed mainly at young people. It showed two cranky looking computer animations about to beat the crap out of each other.

Conclusion: The word Athiest must be really frightening to some people.

It seems to be socially acceptable to advertise games where you kill or maim another human but it's not OK to peacefully point out that there is a quite reasonable alternative view of the world to that pushed by religious organisations. I guess society might collapse if too many people worked out that religious dogma is a little bit silly!! Ha.

Maybe the government would take away our christian based public holidays if too many people ticked "no religion" in the next census. Mmmm we could replace them with some public holidays that are meaningfull to all humans like .......maybe this is worth a thread on it's own.

[Vonnie]

Is there a way we can help in order to keep the issue hot?

Back in 2008, the Brisbane Atheists had approval from APN for a billboard design but, while we raised over $1500 in pledges, were were short by $500 or so, so the idea went down the drain.

Apparently, the Queensland Humanists have new leadership and they are keen to pick up the ball.

Pledges can be sent to Maria at the Humanists Society of Queensland: http://www.hsq.org.au/Welcome_.html

Note: This is a separate issue to the AFA bus campaign, more in line with the Freedom from Religion's billboard campaign.

Vonnie

[SchizoDeluxe]

Maybe the government would take away our christian based public holidays if too many people ticked "no religion" in the next census. Mmmm we could replace them with some public holidays that are meaningfull to all humans like .......maybe this is worth a thread on it's own.

The sunday trading issue in WA stems from religion as well, another one which people here "seem" to be opposed to, though businesses twist that to their advantage of course. Personally, I'm more for freedom of choice, people and businesses should have that freedom to do what they want on any given day. I've heard the argument on religious public holidays in which anyone who doesn't believe in religion ie atheists shouldn't have to have the day off while everyone else can. Along those same lines, some religious employees, particularly jewish and muslim have been given permission to take certain times of the day, during their shifts at work to attend to their religious practices eg praying and worshipping at a specific time of day.

[Vonnie]

You still don't have Sunday trading in Perth!? You're kidding? (What about that ridiculous service station roster thing. Have they got rid of that?)

Vonnie

[Vonnie]

Really? In Toowoomba? I couldn't live without Sunday trading!

Vonnie

[SchizoDeluxe]

You still don't have Sunday trading in Perth!? You're kidding? (What about that ridiculous service station roster thing. Have they got rid of that?)

Vonnie

Nope and it really pisses me off. It didn't even dawn on me until much later that part of that regulation law stemmed from fucking religion. And I just do not buy the pathetic excuses people have come with so far, I do not buy it one bit.

[Simon Gardner (UK)]

So [11-4-09] still no movement on the Oz atheist bus[ses]?

[David Nicholls]

Simon Gardner,

Behind the scenes, there is plenty of action going on concerning the OZ Atheist bus campaign. All will be revealed in the fullness of time. I’m not trying to be evasive, it is just that some delicate matters are in progress which have to be resolved before a public announcement can happen.

David

[DanDare]

David,

would you mind just popping a post in here from time to time, letting us know that things are still active? Say once a wek or perhaps fortnight would be enough to stop us losing heart. ;)

I for one am quite concerned about the implications for free speech in Oz if nothing else. Admittedly it has always been a bit censorious down under.

[David Nicholls]

Dan Dare,

No need to worry. Although there is nothing I can report, doesn’t mean there is nothing going on. At the moment, all we can do is sit back and appreciate the many positives that have come about because of the rejection by APN Outdoor in not placing our advertisements. The principle of freedom of expression and/or discriminatory behaviour is something we are working on and it may have far reaching consequences.

David

[DanDare]

Dan Dare,

No need to worry. Although there is nothing I can report, doesn’t mean there is nothing going on. At the moment, all we can do is sit back and appreciate the many positives that have come about because of the rejection by APN Outdoor in not placing our advertisements. The principle of freedom of expression and/or discriminatory behaviour is something we are working on and it may have far reaching consequences.

David
Weeeeeeee! ;) OK, I'll wait impatiently but quietly.

[DanDare]

How problems were overcome in Ottawa.

ATHEIST BUS ADS IN OTTAWA
By Julie Breeze (Director, Humanist Association of Ottawa)

The Humanist Association of Ottawa has been working to bring ads to Ottawa buses saying: THERE’S PROBABLY NO GOD. NOW STOP WORRYING AND ENJOY YOUR LIFE.

[snip bus add history]

In Australia not only was the “probably no god” message refused, but even Celebrate reason: Sleep in on Sunday mornings and Atheism - Celebrate reason were turned down by the largest outdoor ad company in the country...

...People have opened their wallets to the campaign because they feel it gives a public voice to their point of view, in a way never seen before. It gives them a sense of solidarity with other atheists. They derive satisfaction from giving confidence to other nonbelievers and doubters who may feel bound by a need to appease religious family and friends.

The Humanist Association of Ottawa teamed up with the Freethought Association of Canada and atheistbus.ca to put Sherine’s ads on Ottawa buses. We were told that the Transit Committee had rejected our ads, but Pattision, the company which places advertising on the buses, offered us a discounted rate on roadside billboard ads instead. We thought about the billboards but decided to stick with our original application, since OC Transpo had previously approved a number of Christian ads for the buses and we saw no reason why we should not receive equal treatment.

The HAO Board met on February 17th. Realizing that City councilor Alex Cullen, the Chair of the Transit Committee, had decided to ask the reason for OC Transpo’s rejection of our ads at a Transit Committee meeting the following day, it became clear through discussion that we should go to City Hall right before the meeting to make our opinion known.

The HAO put out a press release that night to every English-language media outlet in the Ottawa area. We contacted as many members as we could reach at the last minute. Seanna Watson (HAO President) spent most of the night making T shirts saying “Why not in Ottawa?” with our ad slogan. We didn’t think we’d be allowed to carry signs in City Hall, but we were pretty sure clothing was permitted (or even required).

In spite of the short notice, four of us were able to make it the next morning. We stood somewhat nervously in front of the door to the meeting room, not sure what would happen. There had been no time to apply for a permit or ask about rules. We didn’t know if we were allowed to be there, if we would be asked to leave, or if we were even at risk of being arrested.

And then the first cameraman showed up. We put blue tape over our mouths and waited. He came up and began photographing us. Then more people arrived. One asked us tentatively “Would you speak to us?”

I have never been too free with identifying myself as an atheist, for fear of the silent discrimination in our society. People almost never ask my religion, and if they do ask what they really want to know is whether I am part of their own particular denomination. I tell them I’m a Humanist.

That day we were surrounded by microphones, still cameras, and TV cameras. Everybody wanted to know our names and why we were there. It was just like a movie scene of a media scrum. I felt like after a lifetime of keeping my toes dry I was suddenly standing on the edge of the high diving board.

I took a deep breath and jumped in.

That day we were all over the news. I heard we were on CBC radio at noon, even before the vote had been taken at the meeting. We were on the television news, the radio, and in every one of the five daily English and French newspapers in the Ottawa area. The publicity was phenomenal!

Once the reporters had had the chance to interview and photograph us to their hearts’ content, we learned that we were allowed to attend the Transit Committee meeting. Alex Cullen even came over and told showed us the form we should fill out if we wished to have up to five minutes to address the Committee.

It took most of the day to get to the bus ad issue, with the journalists coming up to us periodically to take more photos or ask more questions. When the matter came up, Alain Mercier, the Manager of OC Transpo, waffled around a bit, ultimately giving several reasons for his staff’s decision to reject the ads. He said that the policy stated that religious advertising was unacceptable unless it advertised a specific event, with a date and time listed. (Nothing wrong with that policy, except that OC Transpo had previously accepted ads from the Anglican Church, the Pentecostal Church, and Bus Stop Bible Studies, none of which listed specific events, times, and places.) He said that they felt that our ad could be offensive to Transit riders, and that they had wanted to avoid controversy. Oops.

David Burton (another HAO director) addressed the Transit Committee, making a wonderful case for why we should be allowed to run the ads. Then another member of the public, Teresa Milligan, took a turn to speak. She stated that atheists should never be allowed to run ads, since the Stalinist Soviet Union was atheistic and they had committed terrible atrocities, killing millions of people. Atheists are therefore dangerous people who should not be allowed to air their views.

When I heard that I knew that we could never let these ideas go unchallenged. Even though I had not planned to speak, and had not prepared any remarks, I quickly grabbed a “Request to Speak” form and scribbled in the required information as fast as I could before Milligan finished her five minutes of speaking time. A man appeared and took the form from my hand, and I was called to the microphone. I explained to the committee that Humanists never advocate or participate in violence of any kind, and that far more atrocities have been committed in the name of religion than in the name of Atheism. I cited the bombing of the World Trade Centre as one such example. One of the Guiding Principles of Humanism is that we advocate the peaceful resolution of conflicts. (I later discovered that Stalin’s evil was in fact committed in the name of Communism
rather than Atheism.)

The six councilors present at the meeting discussed the ads for a while prior to the vote on overturning the ban, with Cullen calling the ads censorship and a denial of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms’ guarantee of freedom of speech. Councilor Marianne Wilkinson stated that she found the ad offensive to her as a Christian. ‘It grates on me,’ she whined. They voted 3-3, not enough to overturn the ban, so Cullen said that he would bring the matter to a full City Council meeting on March 11.

This time we had a chance to be much better prepared. Seanna added a back to the T-shirts which listed all 15 cities around the world where atheist bus ads were already running, along the lines of a rock concert tour, with Ottawa? at the bottom. We got together two dozen people from as far away as Bowmanville for a protest at the start of the meeting on March 11, and had lots more press coverage. There was a group of children who had been bussed in from a Christian school to protest our ads.

A new member of HAO, Paul LeClair, had written a song about the bus ads titled “Freedom of Expression”. He played it for the press, and then went outside to serenade the Christian schoolchildren with it.

At the meeting we learned that Alex Cullen had asked the City’s legal team to analyze the City’s chances of upholding their ban of our ads should we decide to take the matter to court. They released a six-page document giving all the reasons and precedents why the City hadn’t a hope of winning any such lawsuit. The City lawyer estimated the cost to the city of such a battle at about $10,000 – 20,000.

Marianne Wilkinson and her cronies on the council had another try at banning the ads, wanting to rewrite the city’s policy so as to exclude them. They had no particular plan of how they could word such a policy, given the legal opinion that it couldn’t be done, but their move would at least postpone the ads’ debut. Mayor Larry O’Brien spoke about the inter-faith council which he chairs, and said that everybody on the council felt that the ads should be allowed to run. In spite of this, he later voted to uphold the ban.

Alain Mercier was on the hot seat again, and was forced to admit that had he known that the ban would never stand up to a court challenge he would not have suggested it in the first place. At this point there were about fifteen of us sitting together in the public seats. Even though the public is not allowed to speak at full city council meetings, we were quite noticeable in our white T shirts, and the councilors were clearly aware of our presence, referring to us several times during the debate. At one point Cullen mentioned that the city “hadn’t a prayer” of winning a legal challenge, and the councilor beside him gestured towards us chuckling in the audience, commenting “They got it!”

Whether due to personal convictions that it was the right thing to do, or from distaste at the idea of wasting city money on an unwinnable legal battle, the Council voted 13-7 in favour of running our ads. The ads have been running on Ottawa buses since 7 April.

[Vonnie]

Bravo, HAO!

Vonnie

[DanDare]

5 Months since last asked, any news?

[David Nicholls]

DanDare,

Soon :)

David

[Iridescence]

One little issue I have with this - I don't see religious advertising on buses now - so if the AFA starts an atheist bus ad campaign, then what is to stop the churches from exploiting the same thing? I think you are opening a big old can of worms.

I don't particularly want to see them (the religious organisations) screaming equal rights to put their messages on buses. Because it will make my morning commute even more annoying and I may burst a vein for real..

Gah, just imagining driving down the road behind a bus declaring I must accept jesus or burn in eternal hell makes my eye twitch.

[SinisterDexter]

Well, that did happen in the UK. But I honestly think it made those religions look like idiots. It was very "Oh, yeah, well God does so too exist! So ner!".

Plus, we have had religious advertising here in Adelaide before. Apparently, so went the ads, "Jesus wept."

WTF?

[David Nicholls]

Iridescence,


Good point. But here is something to consider. The AFA bus adverts are selling the message of reason. Religious adverts will attempt to influence people about a spooky world separate from reality.

Atheism is growing so rapidly in the world because such pubic messages tend to turn people off rather than attract them. I give you the examples of recent muttering from Pell, the Pope and the odd Anglican archbishop. Even religious folk find embarrassment in a lot of those outpouring about abstinence, the climate is OK, no condoms for Africa, same sex relations are less valid than hetero ones etc

Religion perpetuates itself quietly by indoctrination of the young achieved by restrictive parents, schools and peer pressure. Exposing religion in the light of day for all to see is in my opinion, its biggest mistake.

I personally welcome the idea of signs on buses with a religious flavour. They will represent a desperate church in decline, whereas the Atheist message is one of growing awareness that the emperor has no clothes.

David

[Iridescence]

David, I see your point - the long term benefit may be worth the short term irritation.

[Vonnie]

...such pubic messages tend to turn people off rather than attract them...

:eek:<splork!!!>:D

Vonnie

[David Nicholls]

David, I see your point - the long term benefit may be worth the short term irritation. I don’t really see it as an ‘irritation’, Iridescence. I consider it an end example of the moulding capability of the human mind given the correct genetic and nurturing recipe at an early age. It’s all very sad for the folk thus affected and for those lives they inadvertently damage along the way.

I know the negative results of religious faith can be nothing short of disastrous, but imagine believing in spooky stuff for a whole lifetime and never knowing the basic reasons for holding onto this kind of a delusion.

It certainly hits my pity bone in a severe kind of way.


.such pubic messages tend to turn people off rather than attract them...
Bit tired is my excuse. It was pointed out to me by another, Vonnie, but I still didn't twig. I think I'll leave it there for my punishment. :)


David

[DanDare]

When I lived in Sydney I saw quite a few god botherer adds on buses. They were not on the outside of the bus but on the inside where you had nothing much to do but read all the cramped text of biblical quotes.

Its harder with the more modern buses since they limit internal advertising to that little panel behind the drivers seat but I still saw adds for various religious groups there.

Of course billboards is where a lot of the action is. Drive down the New England highway sometime and cop a geek at the anti abortion billboards. And of course all those pithy little signs outside of churches such as "No God, no life. Know God, know life." :(

A lot of intellectuals around the traps dislike the Brights movement, largely it seems because of the name. One thing the Brights have that atheists don't is a common positive formalism that you can get behind and promote. I suggested on their website that the movement should have an equivalent to churches which I named (tongue firmly in cheek) "Light Houses". Light Houses would be looked after by a "Beacon". They could then have all the pithy little signs, about a natural world view, that they wanted and they could be centres of reason.

Anyway, the atheist bus campaign seems to be part of an even larger movement than the Brights about reason itself. That is the implication of the Sam Harris Reason Project, although it is a little slow to get off the ground and still tied to the anti-theism project a little too tightly. The atheist bus campaign is certainly one way to go and its good to have a focus. I think we need more campaigns in different avenues promoting reason and tearing down the privilege that has been given to religious world views.

:cool: later dudes.

[Kid]

DanDare: "A lot of intellectuals around the traps dislike the Brights movement, largely it seems because of the name. One thing the Brights have that atheists don't is a common positive formalism that you can get behind and promote. I suggested on their website that the movement should have an equivalent to churches which I named (tongue firmly in cheek) "Light Houses". Light Houses would be looked after by a "Beacon". They could then have all the pithy little signs, about a natural world view, that they wanted and they could be centres of reason."

Dan, I really like this idea! "Light Houses" is great, and a "Beacon" is brilliant! (ha...puns of a kind). That idea of a bright beam of knowledge, reason, hope, and science in a world of darkness of superstition...a lighthouse could even be used as an atheist symbol along with the red A... shining out its light and guiding all those 'ships of fools' to home and safety...ah, romantic ol' me...but I like it; I'd back an idea and symbolism like that...:)

[Simon Gardner (UK)]

The Atheist Bus Austria (http://www.buskampagne.at/) is now rolling. That’s Austria - not Australia.

[GenericBox]

The Atheist Bus Austria (http://www.buskampagne.at/) is now rolling. That’s Austria - not Australia.

Yay, now even the Austrians are more able than we are. :(

[Simon Gardner (UK)]

OK. I spoke too soon:
Atheist Bus Campaign Stopped (Atheisten-Buskampagne gestoppt)

by DerStandard, Vienna Austria
http://derstandard.at/?url=/etat

Atheist Bus Campaign Stopped

Vienna Lines transit authority : “No advertisement for political parties or religious groups on Vienna Lines vehicles”. Initiators: “A sad surprise”

Vienna transit authorities have stopped the atheist bus campaign. As etat.at reported, starting from June 5th 13A and 14A buses were supposed to carry adverts stating ‘With a probability bordering on certainty, there is no God. Values are human. It is up to us.’

Campaign proponents called the Vienna Lines decision dubious.

“It is very unusual to stop an ongoing campaign that is under contractual agreement,’ said Niko Alm of Super-Fi, the agency which has developed for free the campaign for Austria’s atheist and humanist organisations.

“One of the Vienna Lines rules is that we don’t carry adverts for political parties as well as religious groups on Vienna Lines vehicles. This also applies to atheist groups. Therefore, upon careful consideration, freethinker association AG-ATHE’s request was denied,” said a speaker for Vienna Lines.

“A sad surprise”

“To say that most likely there is no God is hardly a religious advertisement,” according to the campaign organisers AG-ATHE (Atheists and Agnostics for a Secular Austria), AHA (Alliance for Humanism and Atheism) and the Freethinker League of Austria.

“Gewista, the billboard company, had no objections. But as soon as Vienna Lines saw the adverts, they got cold feet,’ commented Erich Eder (AG-ATHE).

Martin Luksan from the Freethinker League: “It is a sad surprise for us to see the same reaction in Vienna as in Germany and Italy. The city is obviously not ready for this, as we thought, but it is afraid of an open discussion.”

And Karl Linek of the Alliance for Humanism and Atheism asks: “Why should it be impossible to do something in Vienna that was no problem in London or Madrid?”

The campaign organisers want to ‘exhaust all the possibilities to show these placards in public,’ according to a release. The campaign stop shows how important it is for Austria ’to discuss the influence of religion on society.’
Sorry!

[GenericBox]

Ouch!

Lol I didn't mean able as in able as an organisational thing. I meant able is an able to actually get them on buses.

Just clearing that up :p

[Simon Gardner (UK)]

http://www.buskampagne.de/wp-content/uploads/dresden.jpg

Dresden [17-6-09].

[youngmoigle]

USA Atheist buses kaput
http://www.examiner.com/x-2044-Atheism-Examiner~y2009m6d23-No-more-atheist-bus-ads-in-South-Bend--Policy-change

[DanDare]

If atheism can't take the bus, it must walk around through towns and cities, engaging those people it meets.
Well of course, the Freedom From Religion Foundation (http://ffrf.org/) in the USA was putting up atheist billboards long before the bus campaign.

We need, before choosing a medium, to discuss the message. We want a message that encourages people to think a bit, raise their consciousness and question dogma. We went a campaign that can go viral and become part of the culture, in counterpoint to the religious stuff.

[DanDare]

It seems that now the company has decided to be more specific. Reportedly, they will deny ad space for the promotion of "cigarettes, churches, politicians, guns or porn." The effect of this policy will not make much of a dent to the company financially. Supposedly, "Transpo makes $70,000 a year from advertising, an insubstantial amount of which will be lost under the new policy."
Strangely, they must assume atheism comes under churches, because this new policy would not exclude atheist messages in any way.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Strangely, they must assume atheism comes under churches, because this new policy would not exclude atheist messages in any way.

It would exclude alcohol and drugs too :)

[OzAtheist]

I still reckon the AFA should stick up a few billboards in the mean time whilst they are awaiting the court case. Especially now this is occurring soon in the Hunter Valley / Newcastle region:

Turn on your TV this September and you’ll be sure to come across an advertisement with a difference! Coming soon to a TV and a billboard near you is the church’s biggest and sharpest media campaign since Billy Graham – ‘Jesus All About Life’ (www.jesusallaboutlife.com.au (http://www.jesusallaboutlife.com.au/)).

[DanDare]

A suggested campaign theme from which billboards and bus ads could be drawn:

There are probably no gods of any kind. Those that believe in one of the gods, please stop pushing your belief on the rest of us and leave our kids alone!

[SinisterDexter]

What about a series of ads that have a headline like a title fight, followed by something sensible. Like:

Jesus vs Mohammad
This Time They're Not Messiah-n Around

Isn't it all a bit silly?
Atheism - the peaceful choice.


Or:

Jehova vs the Bhudda
Fly like a Bhudda, sting like Brimstone

It's all very Confucian!
Atheism - no silly stuff.