Vegetarian Thread Offshoot...Feeding pets

[Logic]

I have a question brought on by GBs vego thread... for those vegetarians out there - how do you justify feeding your domestic pets (dogs, cats etc) meat, or do you not have a pet for this reason?

Although I'm not vegetarian I like to think I'm a conscientious consumer and I don't feed my dog canned food (may have horse meat, cage chook etc in it) or any non-free range chicken, but I am still feeding him beef or lamb. If I was to become vegetarian, how do I reconcile this?

[NakedApe]

A family friend is a strict vegan (for ethical reasons). She feeds her dogs a vegan diet. Seems to me they're always sick, have a lot of allergy problems, have patchy fur and seem quite lethargic. She recently bred them - all but two of the puppies died. It was all the vet's fault, of course.

(Disclaimer: I have absolutely no problem with voluntary vegetarianism for humans, but I reckon projecting your moral standards on to your dog is a bit crazy.)

[atheist_angel]

You can buy vegan dog food. (and cat food)

But you have to supplement it (or make certain it's enriched\fortified) with particular nutrients.Vegetarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism) or vegan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism) cat food has been available for many years. Vegetarian cat food usually is fortified with nutrients such as taurine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurine) and arachidonic acid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arachidonic_acid). A few vegetarian cat food brands are labeled by their manufacturers as meeting AAFCO's Cat Food Nutrient Profile while other manufacturers recommend their products to be supplemented and not used as a standalone. -WIKI link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_food#Vegetarian_or_vegan_food)

[davo]

First off, vegetarianism is not a doctrine.

This is where I think people are making a massive mistake of understanding.

"If I become a vegetarian how will I reconcile this?" is kinda a weird question, considering I could be a vegetarian and work in an abattoir. Think about it.

vegetarian = does not eat meat

vegan = doesn't eat meat and avoids animal based food stuffs

vegan lifestyle = doesn't eat meat, avoids animal based food stuffs and animal products

They are more descriptive terms for what people do. The same way atheism is a myriad of reasonings that people come to not believe, there is a myriad of reasons people do not eat meat. It's not a label people live up too, but a description of habit.

I had a dog, it was born via a stray. Dogs eat meat. Dogs are carnivores. I am not about to feed a carnivore but also omnivorous (they can eat vegetables and they are fine doing so) completely on a vegetarian diet. Their metabolism isn't built for it and there is no way I could provide proper foodstuff to do it.

I do what I do for reasons and logic and conclusions I have come to on things, I am vegetarian as it describes what I eat.

I eat what I eat for varying reasons, some of them ethically derived from farming animals, another is the environmental reasons, and also the humanitarian reasons.

[Logic]

First off, vegetarianism is not a doctrine.

This is where I think people are making a massive mistake of understanding.

"If I become a vegetarian how will I reconcile this?" is kinda a weird question, considering I could be a vegetarian and work in an abattoir. Think about it.

I guess what I was trying to say is that if I were eating a vegetarian diet it would be due to animal cruelty issues (factory farming etc), therefore by feeding my dog meat I am in conflict with my ethical beliefs as I am still contributing economically to an industry I don't agree with.

I agree with you that dogs need a meat based diet, therefore I guess you just have to make the most ethical pet food choice you can.

[atheist_angel]

A family friend is a strict vegan (for ethical reasons). She feeds her dogs a vegan diet. Seems to me they're always sick, have a lot of allergy problems, have patchy fur and seem quite lethargic. She recently bred them - all but two of the puppies died. It was all the vet's fault, of course.

(Disclaimer: I have absolutely no problem with voluntary vegetarianism for humans, but I reckon projecting your moral standards on to your dog is a bit crazy.)She's probably not supplementing it quite right, however I would reckon the BARF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_feeding#Barf) diet is probably the best thing to give an animal if the meat is frozen long enough and one is careful about chicken products.

btw, I wouldn't recommend using fish in it. Especially when it comes to cats.

[Logic]

She's probably not doing it right, however I would reckon the BARF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_feeding#Barf) diet is probably the best thing to give an animal if the meat is frozen long enough and one is careful about chicken products.

btw, I wouldn't recommend using fish in it. Especially when it comes to cats.

We feed our dog BARF - he is extremely healthy, has a soft coat and does small non-smelly poos :)

[davo]

I guess what I was trying to say is that if I were eating a vegetarian diet it would be due to animal cruelty issues (factory farming etc), therefore by feeding my dog meat I am in conflict with my ethical beliefs as I am still contributing economically to an industry I don't agree with.

I and many other vegetarians have no problem with feeding pets meat.

I have a dog (or did have), it needs to eat healthily, I have to feed it meat.

Not sure how my ethical position comes into it other than I hate having to do it, but I did it.

I minimised that when I did have a dog via all sorts of methods depending on where I was and from friends farms you name it. I also mixed stuff like pastas and veggies with his meal he loved it, and he was very partial to home made pizza too :)

[riddlemethis]

Hey Logic, thanks for bringing this up! I touches on something I tried to raise in the other thread when extrapolating on the ethical issues.

As we find out more about the physiologies of the animals we keep for our amusement, what if we discover that they can survive perfectly fine on a vegtarian diet? Perhaps they are meat eaters simply out of expediency - its the niche they evolved into? As the only animals able to make ethical choices (???) are we obliged to make them on behalf of animals as well - say the way we do for children? What if the lions could survive on pasta & veggies? If they are extended sentient being rights b/c they aren't so different to us, how do we get them to fulfill the responsibilities too? What if they just eat meat b/c it's yummy & they didn't know anything else was available? (Again my mind is going to explode!)

[nari]

Dogs and cats are essentially carnivores - but if you look at these animals catching live prey, they will eat the offal, meat, organs, bones, skin; everything.

We don't have dogs, but my daughters both feed their ageing respective dogs a wide mix of food: leftovers, dried food, pasta, vegetables, rice, beef, chicken... and they are very healthy. The Great Dane's coat positively glistens. Oh, and lots of chunky bones for their teeth. Their teeth glisten too...

Mankind was probably a meat-eater generally, but the Australian aboriginals had a mixed diet of white and red meat, roots, fruit and insects.

I think a mixed diet is most helpful for pets. Humans can choose what to leave out - that's their prerogative.

nari

[ugu80]

Cats are carnivores and hunters. Dogs are omnivorous scavengers.

I hope the bones being fed aren't cooked, they splinter and run the risk of piercing the intestine. Raw bones become gelatinous in the digestive system and thus pass through safely.

[two dogs]

...
Dogs are omnivorous scavengers.
...

Indeed; they're even coprophagic.

[davo]

As the only animals able to make ethical choices (???) are we obliged to make them on behalf of animals as well

No, we should not intrude into trying to manage their lifestyle other than to protect what they are and their environment from our encroachment as best we can, we should but right out. We should not breed animals for pets etc etc

that's what I think anyway.

[two dogs]

...
We should not breed animals for pets etc etc
...

And we should definitely not put birds in cages!

[knowledge is power]

I've got two cats and a dog which I feed mostly fish based dry pet food, no factory farming there as far as I know.
When my pets pass away I'll probably get herbivore pets(rabbits or a mini pig).
Vegan pet food is really expensive and has to be ordered. It's three times the amount I pay for regular cat food, so I don't buy it.

[nari]

Quote:
Originally Posted by davo http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?p=70304#post70304)
...
We should not breed animals for pets etc etc
...

And we should definitely not put birds in cages!
Absolutely!
It is tantamount to cruelty to fiddle with genes in order to produce dogs and cats which are supposed to appeal to picky buyers...and make more money for the breeders.

nari

[two dogs]

I don't know what the stand is on rescued birds, but I'm probably damned for my cockatiel.
OK, I accept that there be may reasons such as that to cage birds, but in general, I think it's rather cruel to impose confinement on an animal that normally has a freedom of movement well beyond our own.

[Logic]

Absolutely!
It is tantamount to cruelty to fiddle with genes in order to produce dogs and cats which are supposed to appeal to picky buyers...and make more money for the breeders.

nari

I agree. No one should buy pets from pet stores when the sale of these animals only encourages yukky things like puppy mills. If you want a pet you should get one from a shelter. There are so many animals that need homes, why would you get a purebreed from a breeder?

Many purebred dogs have so many health issues just so they can look like we want them to it's disgusting.

[Vangelis]

We should not breed animals for pets etc etc

that's what I think anyway.

Davo, I would have to agree with you. I have a Straffy and he's great but I have begun to realise that the breeding industry has created a series of "pure breed" animals that due to the limited gene pool has produced many genetic defects. Staffies for example suffer from breathing problems and there are many breeds of dogs and cats that suffer from back problems and other bone-related genetic issues. Still, that may be outweighed by the fact that they do live a more comfortable life and longer life in captivity than they do in the wild.

As far as feed is concerned, my dog loves raw chicken wings! He can't get enough of them. But we also feed him leftovers from our meals which he also enjoys.

My oldest daughter owns a bearded dragon. She has to feed it live cockroaches and crickets. I think there's an ethical question there but the lizard would have eaten those creatures in the wild anyway so maybe it's not so bad. Or is that a justification???:confused:

[atheist_angel]

She has to feed it live cockroaches and crickets. Hope they're dusted.

[Vangelis]

Hope they're dusted.

Haha - indeed they are! Clearly you did/do keep these pets also.

[riddlemethis]

Davo, I would have to agree with you. I have a Straffy and he's great but I have begun to realise that the breeding industry has created a series of "pure breed" animals that due to the limited gene pool has produced many genetic defects. Staffies for example suffer from breathing problems and there are many breeds of dogs and cats that suffer from back problems and other bone-related genetic issues. Still, that may be outweighed by the fact that they do live a more comfortable life and longer life in captivity than they do in the wild.

As far as feed is concerned, my dog loves raw chicken wings! He can't get enough of them. But we also feed him leftovers from our meals which he also enjoys.

My oldest daughter owns a bearded dragon. She has to feed it live cockroaches and crickets. I think there's an ethical question there but the lizard would have eaten those creatures in the wild anyway so maybe it's not so bad. Or is that a justification???:confused:

No the justification is in the bit I bolded above. These breeds we keep as pets would not exist in the wild without us - the ones that do aren't wild, they are feral. Domestic cats & dogs are entirely the work of human beings fiddling with gene pools (read The Greatest Show On Earth). They are bred entirely for the amusement of human beings & are completely unnecessary - it would be a severe stretch to begin to mount even an argument from evolution to account for a human 'need' to do it (unlike eating meat).

Keeping & domesticating wild animals is a problem too. It just isn't necessary, although I do see the pleasure in it. Ultimately I wonder if it is just a result of our intense curiosity & tendency to anthropomorphise that has us keep animals for no real purpose.

[ugu80]

Cross breed vigour: The veterinary term the for tendancy of mongrel bred dogs and cats to be healthier and more able to recover from disease and trauma than purebreds. Evolution in action?

[atheist_angel]

Cross breed vigour: The veterinary term the for tendancy of mongrel bred dogs and cats to be healthier and more able to recover from disease and trauma than purebreds. Evolution in action?
I believe they call them...Designer Dogs.

[riddlemethis]

Dogs and cats are essentially carnivores - but if you look at these animals catching live prey, they will eat the offal, meat, organs, bones, skin; everything.

We don't have dogs, but my daughters both feed their ageing respective dogs a wide mix of food: leftovers, dried food, pasta, vegetables, rice, beef, chicken... and they are very healthy. The Great Dane's coat positively glistens. Oh, and lots of chunky bones for their teeth. Their teeth glisten too...

Mankind was probably a meat-eater generally, but the Australian aboriginals had a mixed diet of white and red meat, roots, fruit and insects.

I think a mixed diet is most helpful for pets. Humans can choose what to leave out - that's their prerogative.

nari

But if the argument is a mixed diet is better/helpful for them (and they just don't know it) aren't we obliged to give them that? It's in their best interests & we seem to be the only ones capable of ensuring their best interests are honoured. . . what about wild animals, should we discover they are better off on a mixed diet that they don't 'naturally' partake of? This is part of the problem I see with including animals very broadly in our system of ethics. (Understand that I am exploring the limits of the idea, not challenging individual choices.)