Questions for Christians.....

[Judas]

For some time I have been formulating a list of fairly straight forward, simplistic questions, that I'd love to ask someone of the Christian faith.
Some of these might be stated in "tongue and cheek" fashion, but all are nonetheless legitimate questions I'd be very keen for a knowledgeable person of faith to propose reasonable answers for to benefit my understanding of their world view.
I'm not going to judge or scoff at answers, and would appreciate any valid input.
Cheers.

1. If creation is true, why did God give man nipples?

2. Name a moral absolute stipulated in the bible applicable to all people (not just people of faith)

3. If creation is true, why is there no mention of dinosaurs in the bible?

4. If there are no degrees of sin, and Christ died to redeem all of yours, why do you not just commit suicide so that you can begin your eternal afterlife in heavenly bliss now?

5. OK. Adam and Eve, had Cain and Able. Cain killed Able. Who did Cain go on to have children with to continue populating the earth?

6. Christians always state that men do bad things or do not accept Jesus because God granted them "free will". Where is this concept of "free will" derived form in the bible?

7. Christians state they have higher moral standards because they gain their morals from scripture, but what stops you as a Christian from acting immorally if all your sins are forgiven and Jesus has already died to redeem them?

8. If you were born in Saudi Arabia, do you think you would still be a Christian?

9. What happens (from the Christian perspective) to the souls of the millions of people who either die before, or simply never have the opportunity to hear about Jesus to be able to accept him as their savior? Are they eternally dammed just because they weren't told about it?

10. If a martian came to earth and was presented with a copy of the Koran and the New Testament, how would it know which one was true?

11. How do you, as a Christian, feel about the fact that by the beliefs you subscribe to, over 75% of the earths population will be burning in hell for eternity for either not having accepted Christ as their personal savior, or for worshiping other gods?

12. Why, as a Christian, do you constantly selectively reference the Old Testament when they are meant to simply be the "old laws". If you follow the New Testament, how do you know about things like creation, the great flood, original sin, Sodom and Gomorrah etc as they are Old testament stories?

13. In the Genesis story of creation, why does it state that God made "light" (the sun), and then "the stars" as if they are different in composition, and that he put the stars "in the dome of the sky?"
Does this demonstrate that the biblical account of creation was written by people who had no idea of cosmology and the distances involved in what they try to explain so ignorantly?

14. Can you describe what an "Angel" actually is, and tell me how the "Holy Trinity" functions?

15. Why is it that you claim to have a moral high-ground and seek to try and effect social policy on issues like euthanasia, abortion, safe sex, homosexuality, pornography, freedom of speech saying you derive your views from scripture,
yet..........
You completely ignore specific teachings from your God in the very same scripture in relation to things like adultery, incest, judging others, tattoo's, idolatry, working on the sabbath, false prophets, material wealth, long hair, eating shellfish, slavery, animal sacrifice, even murder in the name of your God?
I can specifically point out hundreds of rules and moral precepts continually ignored by Christians, while they are quick to judge others and affirm to know what awaits these "sinners" after they shuffle off their mortal coil.

16. Why is it only seen as an "abomination" in the bible for men to be homosexual? There is no mention of lesbians at all? Explain to me why lesbianism is not decreed as sinful in the bible, and if not, why Christians deride women in same sex relationships as vitriolically as men?

17. Why is homosexuality a sin, when the biblical account of creation would seem to demonstrate that incest is totally acceptable? Isn't incest morally unacceptable?

18. Since your main framework of morality is derived from the ten commandments, and these are critical tenants of your faith, I assume you would have no trouble reciting all ten for me verbatim "off the top of your head" now would you? Ready, set, go! (can you do more than 3?)

19. How do you KNOW the bible is of divine inspiration?

20. What are some unique attributes of your "God" (apart from the fact that you believe in it) that make it's existence any more feasible than any other "God" proposed by others?

21. Why do you consider "Faith" to be a personal quality one should aspire to posses, when the definition means to "have a belief without, or contrary to, and evidence?"
Doesn't that seem intellectually dishonest to you, as this is rarely (if ever) applied to any other area of you life?
You seem to only require "faith" within the context of your religious belief, as you lack any decent reasoning or evidence.

[Seamus]

1. If creation is true, why did God give man nipples?


Did Adam and Eve have navels?

[bgbarber]

... can I have a go - I may get stonned.



1. If creation is true, why did God give man nipples?
- Ever had your nipples sucked?

2. Name a moral absolute stipulated in the bible applicable to all people (not just people of faith)
- No kill

3. If creation is true, why is there no mention of dinosaurs in the bible?
- The same reason Toe Jam is not mentioned.

4. If there are no degrees of sin, and Christ died to redeem all of yours, why do you not just commit suicide so that you can begin your eternal afterlife in heavenly bliss now?
- It's all about the experience - you cannot die if you have never lived.

5. OK. Adam and Eve, had Cain and Able. Cain killed Able. Who did Cain go on to have children with to continue populating the earth?
- err.. bit hush hush bit of a family scandal

6. Christians always state that men do bad things or do not accept Jesus because God granted them "free will". Where is this concept of "free will" derived form in the bible?
- the question is your answer. In addition - I feel for old lucifer (light bearer) - the fall guy.

7. Christians state they have higher moral standards because they gain their morals from scripture, but what stops you as a Christian from acting immorally if all your sins are forgiven and Jesus has already died to redeem them?
- nothing - it is the end realisation that makes the difference.

8. If you were born in Saudi Arabia, do you think you would still be a Christian?
- possibly a Muslim - same god though.

9. What happens (from the Christian perspective) to the souls of the millions of people who either die before, or simply never have the opportunity to hear about Jesus to be able to accept him as their saviour? Are they eternally dammed just because they weren't told about it?
- good question. the Catholics call it "Limbo of Infants". I personally call it a false start, try again soon.


10. If a martian came to earth and was presented with a copy of the Koran and the New Testament, how would it know which one was true?
- where did the Martian get it from as it was written by man yeah?


11. How do you, as a Christian, feel about the fact that by the beliefs you subscribe to, over 75% of the earths population will be burning in hell for eternity for either not having accepted Christ as their personal saviour, or for worshiping other gods?
- see Q.9


12. Why, as a Christian, do you constantly selectively reference the Old Testament when they are meant to simply be the "old laws". If you follow the New Testament, how do you know about things like creation, the great flood, original sin, Sodom and Gomorrah etc as they are Old testament stories?
-Metaphors more succinctly.


13. In the Genesis story of creation, why does it state that God made "light" (the sun), and then "the stars" as if they are different in composition, and that he put the stars "in the dome of the sky?"
Does this demonstrate that the biblical account of creation was written by people who had no idea of cosmology and the distances involved in what they try to explain so ignorantly?
- Different in composition or does it mean different in distance to the Earth?


14. Can you describe what an "Angel" actually is, and tell me how the "Holy Trinity" functions?
- Angel means messenger.
- Holy Trinity - ever seen a shape with two sides?



15. Why is it that you claim to have a moral high-ground and seek to try and effect social policy on issues like euthanasia, abortion, safe sex, homosexuality, pornography, freedom of speech saying you derive your views from scripture,
yet..........
You completely ignore specific teachings from your God in the very same scripture in relation to things like adultery, incest, judging others, tattoo's, idolatry, working on the sabbath, false prophets, material wealth, long hair, eating shellfish, slavery, animal sacrifice, even murder in the name of your God?
I can specifically point out hundreds of rules and moral precepts continually ignored by Christians, while they are quick to judge others and affirm to know what awaits these "sinners" after they shuffle off their mortal coil.

- Such is man - judge the sin not the sinner (oh and sin boldly)


16. Why is it only seen as an "abomination" in the bible for men to be homosexual? There is no mention of lesbians at all? Explain to me why lesbianism is not decreed as sinful in the bible, and if not, why Christians deride women in same sex relationships as vitriolically as men?

- There is disagreement on this issue.

17. Why is homosexuality a sin, when the biblical account of creation would seem to demonstrate that incest is totally acceptable? Isn't incest morally unacceptable?

- Adam and Eve and the beginning may be an story of evolution (who knows)

18. Since your main framework of morality is derived from the ten commandments, and these are critical tenants of your faith, I assume you would have no trouble reciting all ten for me verbatim "off the top of your head" now would you? Ready, set, go! (can you do more than 3?)

- don't get too pissed?

19. How do you KNOW the bible is of divine inspiration?

- Time is perhaps the ultimate form of literary criticism and as such it has kinda been in print for a while. Divine inspiration yes - perfect not so sure.


20. What are some unique attributes of your "God" (apart from the fact that you believe in it) that make it's existence any more feasible than any other "God" proposed by others?

- Replace the word "God" with the word "Love" and a strange change appears in people.

21. Why do you consider "Faith" to be a personal quality one should aspire to posses, when the definition means to "have a belief without, or contrary to, and evidence?"
Doesn't that seem intellectually dishonest to you, as this is rarely (if ever) applied to any other area of you life?
You seem to only require "faith" within the context of your religious belief, as you lack any decent reasoning or evidence.

- Faith may be considered the ability to trust and believe in something external to one's own constructs and subjective experience in life. A form ofcourage perhaps that does not demand explanation or proof? Some consider it a strength. If one was born with all the proof and explanations delivered what would be the point of birth at all. Faith, Experience, and Growth - an important trinity.

[Worldslaziestbusker]

... can I have a go - I may get stonned.


1. If creation is true, why did God give man nipples?
- Ever had your nipples sucked?

payable but sets the tone for what is an annoying glib ride.


[2. Name a moral absolute stipulated in the bible applicable to all people (not just people of faith)
- No kill If this was an absolute, no Christian could ever condone killing. Lots of Christians have killed with church granted immunity, therefore it is not a moral absolute.


3. If creation is true, why is there no mention of dinosaurs in the bible?
- The same reason Toe Jam is not mentioned.See Bill Hicks' tirade on dinosaurs in the bible. It's more entertaining than anything I might write here.


4. If there are no degrees of sin, and Christ died to redeem all of yours, why do you not just commit suicide so that you can begin your eternal afterlife in heavenly bliss now?
- It's all about the experience - you cannot die if you have never lived.what is the sin status of children who die before baptism/christening.


5. OK. Adam and Eve, had Cain and Able. Cain killed Able. Who did Cain go on to have children with to continue populating the earth?
- err.. bit hush hush bit of a family scandalanswer the reasonable man's reasonable question


6. Christians always state that men do bad things or do not accept Jesus because God granted them "free will". Where is this concept of "free will" derived form in the bible?
- the question is your answer. In addition - I feel for old lucifer (light bearer) - the fall guy.this is a glib answer to one of the great dilemmas faced by all morality preaching religions. Please be less glib with stuff some of us consider extremely important.


7. Christians state they have higher moral standards because they gain their morals from scripture, but what stops you as a Christian from acting immorally if all your sins are forgiven and Jesus has already died to redeem them?
- nothing - it is the end realisation that makes the difference.so why should we take christian advice on moral issues seriously, as those who would influence legislation and community decisions would like us to?


8. If you were born in Saudi Arabia, do you think you would still be a Christian?
- possibly a Muslim - same god though.different covenant though. You can't both be right. Why do you think you are?


9. What happens (from the Christian perspective) to the souls of the millions of people who either die before, or simply never have the opportunity to hear about Jesus to be able to accept him as their saviour? Are they eternally dammed just because they weren't told about it?
- good question. the Catholics call it "Limbo of Infants". I personally call it a false start, try again soon.reincarnation?? Where does that fit with any Abrahamic tradition


10. If a martian came to earth and was presented with a copy of the Koran and the New Testament, how would it know which one was true?
- where did the Martian get it from as it was written by man yeah? attempted swerve: answer the question


11. How do you, as a Christian, feel about the fact that by the beliefs you subscribe to, over 75% of the earths population will be burning in hell for eternity for either not having accepted Christ as their personal saviour, or for worshiping other gods?
- see Q.9see response to response to Q.9


12. Why, as a Christian, do you constantly selectively reference the Old Testament when they are meant to simply be the "old laws". If you follow the New Testament, how do you know about things like creation, the great flood, original sin, Sodom and Gomorrah etc as they are Old testament stories?
-Metaphors more succinctly. a lot of your co-faithful would disagree. You can't both be right. Why do you think you are?


13. In the Genesis story of creation, why does it state that God made "light" (the sun), and then "the stars" as if they are different in composition, and that he put the stars "in the dome of the sky?"
Does this demonstrate that the biblical account of creation was written by people who had no idea of cosmology and the distances involved in what they try to explain so ignorantly?
- Different in composition or does it mean different in distance to the Earth?attempted swerve: answer the question.


14. Can you describe what an "Angel" actually is, and tell me how the "Holy Trinity" functions?
- Angel means messenger.
- Holy Trinity - ever seen a shape with two sides? ever seen a religion with three god heads and a canon of saints claim to be monotheistic?
Supplementary question: what is the division of labour between the various categories of angels and the metatron?


15. Why is it that you claim to have a moral high-ground and seek to try and effect social policy on issues like euthanasia, abortion, safe sex, homosexuality, pornography, freedom of speech saying you derive your views from scripture,
yet..........
You completely ignore specific teachings from your God in the very same scripture in relation to things like adultery, incest, judging others, tattoo's, idolatry, working on the sabbath, false prophets, material wealth, long hair, eating shellfish, slavery, animal sacrifice, even murder in the name of your God?
I can specifically point out hundreds of rules and moral precepts continually ignored by Christians, while they are quick to judge others and affirm to know what awaits these "sinners" after they shuffle off their mortal coil.

- Such is man - judge the sin not the sinner (oh and sin boldly)run google search on the Euthyphro dilemma


16. Why is it only seen as an "abomination" in the bible for men to be homosexual? There is no mention of lesbians at all? Explain to me why lesbianism is not decreed as sinful in the bible, and if not, why Christians deride women in same sex relationships as vitriolically as men?

- There is disagreement on this issue.who is right and why?


17. Why is homosexuality a sin, when the biblical account of creation would seem to demonstrate that incest is totally acceptable? Isn't incest morally unacceptable?

- Adam and Eve and the beginning may be an story of evolution (who knows)you certainly don't seem to have much of an idea. Perhaps you should be seeking answers to important questions yourself.


18. Since your main framework of morality is derived from the ten commandments, and these are critical tenants of your faith, I assume you would have no trouble reciting all ten for me verbatim "off the top of your head" now would you? Ready, set, go! (can you do more than 3?)

- don't get too pissed?I'm genuinely interested in how you fared on this one. Please answer.


19. How do you KNOW the bible is of divine inspiration?

- Time is perhaps the ultimate form of literary criticism and as such it has kinda been in print for a while. Divine inspiration yes - perfect not so sure.are you suggesting that if 'Dianetics' is still in print two thousand years from now Scientology will have achieved the credibility you claim for the bible? Perhaps you should be Jewish. Their ideas are older than those of Christianity. If like your faith wrinkly, look to Zarathustra. The age of an idea is not a measure of it's worth.


20. What are some unique attributes of your "God" (apart from the fact that you believe in it) that make it's existence any more feasible than any other "God" proposed by others?

- Replace the word "God" with the word "Love" and a strange change appears in people.this is a meaningless aphorism. If you can't answer a question, just say so.


21. Why do you consider "Faith" to be a personal quality one should aspire to posses, when the definition means to "have a belief without, or contrary to, and evidence?"
Doesn't that seem intellectually dishonest to you, as this is rarely (if ever) applied to any other area of you life?
You seem to only require "faith" within the context of your religious belief, as you lack any decent reasoning or evidence.- Faith may be considered the ability to trust and believe in something external to one's own constructs and subjective experience in life. A form ofcourage perhaps that does not demand explanation or proof? Some consider it a strength. If one was born with all the proof and explanations delivered what would be the point of birth at all. Faith, Experience, and Growth - an important trinity.

Point out why birth needs a reason. See extra post that wouldn't fit here.

[Worldslaziestbusker]

Could faith be a form of cowardice where all troubles and woes are taken care of by a remote patriarch? That would be a comfort in times of trouble, even if the troubles and woes didn't go away. The promise of things to come would be enough to take the edge of day to day fears and keep you from having to act against injustices small and large.
Was this really the best you could do? Is this what keeps your faith in tact?
Someone has asked you serious questions and you can't answer them. Do you think you might need to think harder about your choices? Is courage/cowardice enough to dispel any disquiet you might feel from having so thoroughly failed to address these basic concerns about the internal logic and coherence of your religion?
That's certainly why I left the church.
WLB

[deesl4e]

What I want to know is how to get a virgin pregnant. :D Oh thats right they had IVF clinics in good ol downtown Bethlehem, Judea:p

[bgbarber]

Could faith be a form of cowardice where all troubles and woes are taken care of by a remote patriarch? That would be a comfort in times of trouble, even if the troubles and woes didn't go away. The promise of things to come would be enough to take the edge of day to day fears and keep you from having to act against injustices small and large.
Was this really the best you could do? Is this what keeps your faith in tact?
Someone has asked you serious questions and you can't answer them. Do you think you might need to think harder about your choices? Is courage/cowardice enough to dispel any disquiet you might feel from having so thoroughly failed to address these basic concerns about the internal logic and coherence of your religion?
That's certainly why I left the church.
WLB

As human beings when you peel away the layers we all make steps of faith every day - why did you get out of bed of a morning? You must have faith in something in order to motivate yourself. I am answering your questions directly.

A counter argument is that the requirement of proof before any belief negates risk therefore also could be considered a form of cowardice.

You say you left the church? So is this due to a disillusionment with religion?

[bgbarber]

payable but sets the tone for what is an annoying glib ride.

If this was an absolute, no Christian could ever condone killing. Lots of Christians have killed with church granted immunity, therefore it is not a moral absolute.

See Bill Hicks' tirade on dinosaurs in the bible. It's more entertaining than anything I might write here.

what is the sin status of children who die before baptism/christening.

answer the reasonable man's reasonable question

this is a glib answer to one of the great dilemmas faced by all morality preaching religions. Please be less glib with stuff some of us consider extremely important.

so why should we take christian advice on moral issues seriously, as those who would influence legislation and community decisions would like us to?

different covenant though. You can't both be right. Why do you think you are?

reincarnation?? Where does that fit with any Abrahamic tradition

attempted swerve: answer the question

see response to response to Q.9

a lot of your co-faithful would disagree. You can't both be right. Why do you think you are?

attempted swerve: answer the question.

ever seen a religion with three god heads and a canon of saints claim to be monotheistic?
Supplementary question: what is the division of labour between the various categories of angels and the metatron?

run google search on the Euthyphro dilemma

who is right and why?

you certainly don't seem to have much of an idea. Perhaps you should be seeking answers to important questions yourself.

I'm genuinely interested in how you fared on this one. Please answer.

are you suggesting that if 'Dianetics' is still in print two thousand years from now Scientology will have achieved the credibility you claim for the bible? Perhaps you should be Jewish. Their ideas are older than those of Christianity. If like your faith wrinkly, look to Zarathustra. The age of an idea is not a measure of it's worth.

this is a meaningless aphorism. If you can't answer a question, just say so.



Point out why birth needs a reason. See extra post that wouldn't fit here.

The answers were tounge in cheek as was the intial post - please be aware of this in your responses.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

As human beings when you peel away the layers we all make steps of faith every day - why did you get out of bed of a morning? You must have faith in something in order to motivate yourself. I am answering your questions directly.

A counter argument is that the requirement of proof before any belief negates risk therefore also could be considered a form of cowardice.

You say you left the church? So is this due to a disillusionment with religion?Why do vegetables photosynthesize? Surely they must have faith in something in order to motivate them to do it right?

[Darwinsbulldog]

As human beings when you peel away the layers we all make steps of faith every day - why did you get out of bed of a morning? You must have faith in something in order to motivate yourself. I am answering your questions directly.

A counter argument is that the requirement of proof before any belief negates risk therefore also could be considered a form of cowardice.

You say you left the church? So is this due to a disillusionment with religion?

Confidence in one's abilities could be construed as 'faith" however, successful folks are those that have a realistic appreciation of there strengths and weaknesses based on fact and past performance.

Blind faith in oneself, or an imagined deity are both examples where someone's imagination of what is, is not tracking reality very well. "Psyching" yourself up, and optimism is a good tool for stretching yourself, and making the most of one's talents, but in the end, if you don't have what it takes, and do have very unrealistic goals, the you will fail.

Atheists don't want proof of supernatural things like gods, some evidence will do. Learn the difference between proof and evidence. Science does not prove things in an absolute sense. Learn about the null hypothesis and the hypo-deductive methodlogy in science. The atheist is no coward in a world where some folks will kill you for your disbeliefs. He/she is a realist, requring some support for the reality of a thing in the form of some reliable evidence before we entertain a serious hypothesis on the existence of a thing or entity.

[bgbarber]

Why do vegetables photosynthesize? Surely they must have faith in something in order to motivate them to do it right?

Not sure of your point? The question comes to mind though are they aware of it?

[bgbarber]

Confidence in one's abilities could be construed as 'faith" however, successful folks are those that have a realistic appreciation of there strengths and weaknesses based on fact and past performance.

Blind faith in oneself, or an imagined deity are both examples where someone's imagination of what is, is not tracking reality very well. "Psyching" yourself up, and optimism is a good tool for stretching yourself, and making the most of one's talents, but in the end, if you don't have what it takes, and do have very unrealistic goals, the you will fail.

Atheists don't want proof of supernatural things like gods, some evidence will do. Learn the difference between proof and evidence. Science does not prove things in an absolute sense. Learn about the null hypothesis and the hypo-deductive methodlogy in science. The atheist is no coward in a world where some folks will kill you for your disbeliefs. He/she is a realist, requring some support for the reality of a thing in the form of some reliable evidence before we entertain a serious hypothesis on the existence of a thing or entity.

Interesting you raise the evidence/proof difference. Some believers in god will tell you they see evidence every day for the existance of God therefore could not really be considered blind faith.

I do not believe all atheists are cowards - just giving a counter argument.

[Worldslaziestbusker]

Interesting you raise the evidence/proof difference. Some believers in god will tell you they see evidence every day for the existance of God therefore could not really be considered blind faith.

I do not believe all atheists are cowards - just giving a counter argument.

Please share some of the evidence you mention.
I have already addressed your concerns about why I get out of bed in the morning in the thread you started on that very topic, though you did it by means of a very circuitous fictional dialogue. You haven't as yet given any sort of rebuttal to my ideas in that thread. If it isn't an indication that you can't rebut my ideas, it is at least very rude of you to ignore posts I took some time to write.


Some of these might be stated in "tongue and cheek" fashion, but all are nonetheless legitimate questions I'd be very keen for a knowledgeable person of faith to propose reasonable answers for to benefit my understanding of their world view.
I'm not going to judge or scoff at answers, and would appreciate any valid input.Okay, so you chose to treat the entire thing tongue in cheek. Would you please go through the questions a second time and provide your considered opinion on the matters at hand.

My departure from the church came about in part because I couldn't hold two contradictory mental frameworks at the same time. On the one hand I had the world as perceived from a religious perspective and on the other the world as explained by natural laws. As the scientific version had evidence and allowed useful predictions to be made about future events from initial conditions, I left my faith behind and became a scientist.
If you show me credible evidence that god exists, I will, by my own rules, accept that evidence. It would be a big mental gear shift, but an absolutely necessary one. If I continued to not believe in the supernatural in spite of credible evidence, my atheism would be a faith. Free and willing convert for the taking if you can come up with the goods.

WLB

[Loki]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crocodile
Why do vegetables photosynthesize? Surely they must have faith in something in order to motivate them to do it right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bgbarber
Not sure of your point? The question comes to mind though are they aware of it?


Most assuredly they are aware of it, they respond to wavelength, intensity and length of light in a myriad of ways. They may not have the neural architecture of animals, and the mechanisms are different, but they are most definitely aware of their environment.

[Darwinsbulldog]

Interesting you raise the evidence/proof difference. Some believers in god will tell you they see evidence every day for the existence of God therefore could not really be considered blind faith.

Hmmm....., you seem not to have quite got the difference between proof and evidence. :D There are actually two meanings of the word "proof" that are relevant here. Proof can mean "to test" and the other is "confirmation or validation". Absolute proofs are in mathematics, and only are accepted within the maths. In science, to prove, means to subject the thing to testing using evidence [both for and against] the hypothesis or theory under test.

What passes for evidence in theological and religious circles amounts to seeing the Bible as an "authority", the "authority" of priests, and personal "revelations" or "experiences" which are invariably scientifically ignorant misinterpretations of natural phenomena such as night terrors, delusions and the like. Futhermore, theology is deeply flawed due to the phenomena called "confirmation bias". You start with [not the proposition, but the baseless claim] that god is a fact and is real. [Lawyers call this "presenting facts not in evidence" ]. So no, you are wrong, faith in god [s] is blind because any evidence or argument against gods are ignored by the faithful.

I do not believe all atheists are cowards - just giving a counter argument.Thank you for that, so you are admitting that you over-generalized the "data" you collected that led you to the conclusion that all atheists are cowards. Again confirmation bias, bordering on bigotry. It was not a counter-argument, it was a false claim. However, I am pleased that you have withdrawn that claim.

[Fromm_Nicht]

I am genuinely interested to see some well considered answers to these questions from some current theists, its a shame they do not seem to be forthcoming.

Perhaps the fantasy island residents refrain from answering as to do so they would necessarily have to be dishonest.

[john832]

1. If creation is true, why did God give man nipples?

Because He didnt want man to get jealous of the women :P

2. Name a moral absolute stipulated in the bible applicable to all people (not just people of faith)


Thou shall not commit adultery

3. If creation is true, why is there no mention of dinosaurs in the bible?

Good question.

4. If there are no degrees of sin, and Christ died to redeem all of yours, why do you not just commit suicide so that you can begin your eternal afterlife in heavenly bliss now?

Thats rather silly. I want to live on planet Earth make a difference, kind of live a normal life.

5. OK. Adam and Eve, had Cain and Able. Cain killed Able. Who did Cain go on to have children with to continue populating the earth?

His sister?

6. Christians always state that men do bad things or do not accept Jesus because God granted them "free will". Where is this concept of "free will" derived form in the bible?

Read Genesis 1 and 2. Although I 100% believe in free will. I believe God choses people to believe in Him.

7. Christians state they have higher moral standards because they gain their morals from scripture, but what stops you as a Christian from acting immorally if all your sins are forgiven and Jesus has already died to redeem them?

Well thats silly, tell Christians that Muslims and Buddhists are usally much more honorable than Christians.

8. If you were born in Saudi Arabia, do you think you would still be a Christian?

I dont know.

9. What happens (from the Christian perspective) to the souls of the millions of people who either die before, or simply never have the opportunity to hear about Jesus to be able to accept him as their savior? Are they eternally dammed just because they weren't told about it?

No. They will be judged what they have done with the knowledge they know (read romans 2)

10. If a martian came to earth and was presented with a copy of the Koran and the New Testament, how would it know which one was true?

Get scales, put a feather in one side in the quran or the NT in the other side, which ever one weighs the lightest, is true. (it works all the time)

11. How do you, as a Christian, feel about the fact that by the beliefs you subscribe to, over 75% of the earths population will be burning in hell for eternity for either not having accepted Christ as their personal savior, or for worshiping other gods?

this is pagan belief. I challange anyone to a debate about the eternal fiery hell. Find me one Bible verse that says the lost will burn eternity. (forever and eternity are two different things in Greek)

12. Why, as a Christian, do you constantly selectively reference the Old Testament when they are meant to simply be the "old laws". If you follow the New Testament, how do you know about things like creation, the great flood, original sin, Sodom and Gomorrah etc as they are Old testament stories?

Im a Jewish Christian (SDA) This doesnt apply to me.

13. In the Genesis story of creation, why does it state that God made "light" (the sun), and then "the stars" as if they are different in composition, and that he put the stars "in the dome of the sky?"
Does this demonstrate that the biblical account of creation was written by people who had no idea of cosmology and the distances involved in what they try to explain so ignorantly?

Good question.

14. Can you describe what an "Angel" actually is, and tell me how the "Holy Trinity" functions?

Angel - a dude with wings. On a serious note, a messanger of God. End of story. The God head (trinity) is really complicated. They are one but are 3? I need to look into this more.

15. Why is it that you claim to have a moral high-ground and seek to try and effect social policy on issues like euthanasia, abortion, safe sex, homosexuality, pornography, freedom of speech saying you derive your views from scripture,
yet..........

Christians are stupid go read 1 corinthians 6...

You completely ignore specific teachings from your God in the very same scripture in relation to things like adultery, incest, judging others, tattoo's, idolatry, working on the sabbath, false prophets, material wealth, long hair, eating shellfish, slavery, animal sacrifice, even murder in the name of your God?
I can specifically point out hundreds of rules and moral precepts continually ignored by Christians, while they are quick to judge others and affirm to know what awaits these "sinners" after they shuffle off their mortal coil.

The only law of the Sabbath we have to keep is thou shalt not work on the Sabbath...A lot of the mosaic law is now spiritual...

16. Why is it only seen as an "abomination" in the bible for men to be homosexual? There is no mention of lesbians at all? Explain to me why lesbianism is not decreed as sinful in the bible, and if not, why Christians deride women in same sex relationships as vitriolically as men?


Romans 1 (or 2)...
17. Why is homosexuality a sin, when the biblical account of creation would seem to demonstrate that incest is totally acceptable? Isn't incest morally unacceptable?

Good question. God created male and female.

18. Since your main framework of morality is derived from the ten commandments, and these are critical tenants of your faith, I assume you would have no trouble reciting all ten for me verbatim "off the top of your head" now would you? Ready, set, go! (can you do more than 3?)


Let me see.

1. I am thy Lord your God you shall have no other Gods before me
2. Do not make any graven images
3. Do not take the Lords name in vain
4. Keep the Sabbath day holy

(I named four, do you want the other six?)
19. How do you KNOW the bible is of divine inspiration?

20. What are some unique attributes of your "God" (apart from the fact that you believe in it) that make it's existence any more feasible than any other "God" proposed by others?

Good question. I am a Christian because of subjective evidence and convictions just like a Muslim is as well.

21. Why do you consider "Faith" to be a personal quality one should aspire to posses, when the definition means to "have a belief without, or contrary to, and evidence?"
Doesn't that seem intellectually dishonest to you, as this is rarely (if ever) applied to any other area of you life?
You seem to only require "faith" within the context of your religious belief, as you lack any decent reasoning or evidence.

Hebrews 11:1

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Where does it say blind faith? I believe in heaven, but its rather logical to believe in heaven...

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Because He didnt want man to get jealous of the women :PWell he wasn't a very smart god then was he? ;)
Thou shall not commit adulteryWhat is the problem with that? It has just become socially acceptable to have only one, because of religion. Like how swearing is meant to be a social taboo. Both have one thing in common: they both are harmless, and are only harmful in the eyes of religion.
Thats rather silly. I want to live on planet Earth make a difference, kind of live a normal life.Although is it not better than having the threat of hell hanging over your head?
His sister?Are you just making this up on the spot?
Read Genesis 1 and 2. Although I 100% believe in free will. I believe God choses people to believe in Him.He must be as bored as fuck! Seriously: what kind of god would choose to make imperfections, and the fact that he needs people to follow him is just ridiculous.

Well thats silly, tell Christians that Muslims and Buddhists are usally much more honorable than Christians.That has to do with the question how?

I dont know.Then think. Take me for example. Born and raised in a Muslim family. Used to be Muslim as a result. I bet if I was raised here in a Christian family I would have been Christian instead. Don't you reckon it all depends on environment?

No. They will be judged what they have done with the knowledge they know (read romans 2)So what is the point of all this unnecessary preaching then? Just don't tell 'em and they'll go to Heaven right? Or do you want to see people suffer in eternal torment?


Get scales, put a feather in one side in the quran or the NT in the other side, which ever one weighs the lightest, is true. (it works all the time)Perhaps it would be wise to answer these questions properly. Cut the sarcasm and snide remarks, unless that is being performed to you. This is one reason why most creationists who come to this forum end up here. They are very rude. The worst bit is that they will also accuse atheists of "persecuting" them.


this is pagan belief. I challange anyone to a debate about the eternal fiery hell. Find me one Bible verse that says the lost will burn eternity. (forever and eternity are two different things in Greek)What do you think about this? What is a pagan belief in your eyes?


Im a Jewish Christian (SDA) This doesnt apply to me.Seventh Day Adventist eh? Yes, I have been to an SDA school before so I know a bit about them. I was taught both Old and New Testaments in a SDA school. I don't think it does not apply to you. You must be confusing it with something else.


Good question.But one which you cannot answer?


Angel - a dude with wings. On a serious note, a messanger of God. End of story. The God head (trinity) is really complicated. They are one but are 3? I need to look into this more.Heck - this God is his own father and son, so perhaps you can explain to me that? What is the trinity all about?


Christians are stupid go read 1 corinthians 6...What about the Phelps Family of Kanzas what do you think about them? And when you say "Christians are stupid" are you not including yourself?


The only law of the Sabbath we have to keep is thou shalt not work on the Sabbath...A lot of the mosaic law is now spiritual...Yes - you die if you breathe. Breathing is work. Funny and stupid law that is too.


Romans 1 (or 2)...I have another idea: can you actually post the quotes, so as we don't have to look it up ourselves? It is your job to provide evidence for the claims, not ours to look things up on your behalf. Got it?

Let me see.

1. I am thy Lord your God you shall have no other Gods before me
2. Do not make any graven images
3. Do not take the Lords name in vain
4. Keep the Sabbath day holy

(I named four, do you want the other six?)Yes. Your job to present the evidence, or alleged evidence.

Good question. I am a Christian because of subjective evidence and convictions just like a Muslim is as well.And what subjective evidence may that be? Well, at least the Quran does not say Jesus was god or that Jesus was the son of God (Jesus is known as "Eesa" [sp.] in there just as "Allah" is God in there) so perhaps the Quran may be better?


Hebrews 11:1Care to elaborate?

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.So faith should theoretically make me certain that, the day of night is caused by an invisible magical elf jacking a magical jack which carries a 500 gigawatt spotlight? You know, the spotlights they use to light galaxies with?

Where does it say blind faith? I believe in heaven, but its rather logical to believe in heaven...So where's the logic in it? Provide your logic.


Perhaps instead of making snide remarks, making fun of other peoples' LEGITIMATE questions and queries, and dodging them, as well as just giving bible-verse-references and letting everybody look them up for you, you should answer them professionally and correctly.

This is not a playground, it is an Internet forum. Now I'm sure many of us are trying to be nice to you, but there is a limit as to how far that can go. Atheists only can offer so much tolerance.

How would you like it if I started ranting and raving about Santa Claus and when you asked questions, I did the same to you?

[john832]

What is the problem with that? It has just become socially acceptable to have only one, because of religion. Like how swearing is meant to be a social taboo. Both have one thing in common: they both are harmless, and are only harmful in the eyes of religion.

Not at all, all cultures think adultery is wrong. The aboriginals used to spear people if they had sex with a married woman.

Although is it not better than having the threat of hell hanging over your head?

I am not scared of hell. Why should I be?

Are you just making this up on the spot?

That is one theory. In the book of Jubilee, thats what it says.

He must be as bored as fuck! Seriously: what kind of god would choose to make imperfections, and the fact that he needs people to follow him is just ridiculous.

He doesnt need people to follow Him. You have a choice.

Then think. Take me for example. Born and raised in a Muslim family. Used to be Muslim as a result. I bet if I was raised here in a Christian family I would have been Christian instead. Don't you reckon it all depends on environment?

Some to do with environment, some how you view the world and some to do with your personal convictions.

Perhaps it would be wise to answer these questions properly. Cut the sarcasm and snide remarks, unless that is being performed to you. This is one reason why most creationists who come to this forum end up here. They are very rude. The worst bit is that they will also accuse atheists of "persecuting" them.

I was joking. Alright I wont joke again. My point was I have no idea. Ask me and I will say the NT. Ask a Muslim they will say the Quran. Whos right and whos wrong?

What do you think about this? What is a pagan belief in your eyes?

Pagan - something pagans believed. It was pagans who believed in eternal hell. NOT Jews

What about the Phelps Family of Kanzas what do you think about them? And when you say "Christians are stupid" are you not including yourself?

Phelps family? who are they?

9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.


Paul never says to have signs at gay bars saying, 'Fags are going to hell, repent.' Paul says to associate with immoral people.

Yes, Christians who think it pleases God to have signs saying, 'Fags are going to hell' or that we shouldnt associate with immoral people, due to their sins are stupid Christians.

Heck - this God is his own father and son, so perhaps you can explain to me that? What is the trinity all about?

I am doing research into it at the moment...

I have another idea: can you actually post the quotes, so as we don't have to look it up ourselves? It is your job to provide evidence for the claims, not ours to look things up on your behalf. Got it?

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 2

Romans 1:26

So faith should theoretically make me certain that, the day of night is caused by an invisible magical elf jacking a magical jack which carries a 500 gigawatt spotlight? You know, the spotlights they use to light galaxies with?


No. Hebrews 11:1, isnt talking about believing in illogical things, but believing in things which cant be proven eg. God, heaven etc.

So where's the logic in it? Provide your logic.

Since God cares about humanity and is the judge of all.
God rewards the good with good (heaven)
and the bad with bad (death)


Perhaps instead of making snide remarks, making fun of other peoples' LEGITIMATE questions and queries, and dodging them, as well as just giving bible-verse-references and letting everybody look them up for you, you should answer them professionally and correctly.

This is not a playground, it is an Internet forum. Now I'm sure many of us are trying to be nice to you, but there is a limit as to how far that can go. Atheists only can offer so much tolerance.

How would you like it if I started ranting and raving about Santa Claus and when you asked questions, I did the same to you?

I apologise, I didnt take all those posts serious and did not act as I should of. I will be more considerate and thorough from now on.

[TÐöer]

Not at all, all cultures think adultery is wrong. The aboriginals used to spear people if they had sex with a married woman.

As I mentioned in a different thread, the spartans believed in sharing.

In terms of killing, it is also, deemed acceptable, in all cultures, as long as not your own people.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Not at all, all cultures think adultery is wrong. The aboriginals used to spear people if they had sex with a married woman.That's their problem if they did such a thing. Not all cultures think it is wrong. As TheDoer said: the spartans were OK with sharing. Also from memory, other religions such as Islam allows multiple wives.
I am not scared of hell. Why should I be?Probably because it is mentioned in the Bible and because your god has an anger management problem. He gets angry at a lot of things you do, and if you do not do everything he says, he sends you to eternal damnation.
He doesnt need people to follow Him. You have a choice.Of course he needs them to follow him! He also needs them to praise him! Why else would he write a Bible if he didn't need people to follow him or praise him? Note that this is ALL according to Christianity here.

Some to do with environment, some how you view the world and some to do with your personal convictions.So then what is to do with your "personal convictions" then? Are your family Christians by any chance? If so then this is probably an environmental thing.

I was joking. Alright I wont joke again. My point was I have no idea. Ask me and I will say the NT. Ask a Muslim they will say the Quran. Whos right and whos wrong?Well you tell me.

Pagan - something pagans believed. It was pagans who believed in eternal hell. NOT JewsChristians believe in eternal hell and eternal heaven too. Does that not mean Christianity is a pagan belief by your definition?

Phelps family? who are they?Google "GOD HATES FAGS" and you will find out.

Paul never says to have signs at gay bars saying, 'Fags are going to hell, repent.' Paul says to associate with immoral people.It appears God doesn't like homosexuals though. Also the quote says NOT to associate with "immoral people" there. It may not be a bad idea to actually read the quotes first before posting them.

Yes, Christians who think it pleases God to have signs saying, 'Fags are going to hell' or that we shouldnt associate with immoral people, due to their sins are stupid Christians.Just like approx. 95% of all Christians I have met. Many don't even know about their own religion: you know; stoning children to death, burning witches, stoning adulterers, vampires, zombies, ghosts?

Romans 1:26And the point of that quote is?


No. Hebrews 11:1, isnt talking about believing in illogical things, but believing in things which cant be proven eg. God, heaven etc.Hence, blind faith. If I told you Santa Claus existed and he delivers presents every Christmas then what would you tell me? Would you not ask for proof?


Since God cares about humanity and is the judge of all.
God rewards the good with good (heaven)
and the bad with bad (death)So he cares so much about humanity that he punishes those who do not believe in him with eternal torment and gets angry with anything that is natural, such as sex?

I apologise, I didnt take all those posts serious and did not act as I should of. I will be more considerate and thorough from now on.Excellent.

[wolty]

One step back, fellow: what's the basis for the books being acceptable as any authority?


I can see a roundabout just in front of us. :D

[nettybetty]

Not at all, all cultures think adultery is wrong. The aboriginals used to spear people if they had sex with a married woman.


Oh dear, another example of assumption....here's the wiki on polygamy, a widely accepted form of adultery:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy#Patterns_of_occurrence_worldwide

eg. 1231 societies, 186 confirmed as polygamous. Oh and what about those Mormons down in Utah, and they are classified as a type of Christianity, so it seems not even Christians follow their own moral code (though this is already quite well established).

You state ALL cultures think adultery is wrong. I hope that by you saying you'll be more thorough also means you will check your claims before stating them.

[john832]

Oh dear, another example of assumption....here's the wiki on polygamy, a widely accepted form of adultery:

Polygamy isnt adultery, I will answer the other questions later, its a bit late now.

[john832]

Probably because it is mentioned in the Bible and because your god has an anger management problem. He gets angry at a lot of things you do, and if you do not do everything he says, he sends you to eternal damnation.

where? eternal damnation is a theory, which isnt even upheld in the Bible.

Of course he needs them to follow him! He also needs them to praise him! Why else would he write a Bible if he didn't need people to follow him or praise him? Note that this is ALL according to Christianity here.

37When he came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen:
38"Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord!"b]" class="footnote">
"Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!"
39Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples!"
[B] 40"I tell you," he replied, "if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out."


Pretty awesome statement.

So then what is to do with your "personal convictions" then? Are your family Christians by any chance? If so then this is probably an environmental thing.

Not only environment, many other factors as well.

Well you tell me.

Neither :)

Christians believe in eternal hell and eternal heaven too. Does that not mean Christianity is a pagan belief by your definition?

Christianity does have pagan beliefs,
Christmas, the 25th December was a pagan event, made Christian by Constantine.
Easter, another pagan event.
Eternal fiery hell, another pagan belief.

Show me from the Bible were eternal fiery hell is?

Google "GOD HATES FAGS" and you will find out.


oh that. I was going to make a youtube video, 'God hates straights' (as a joke) but I decided it would be too controversial.

It appears God doesn't like homosexuals though. Also the quote says NOT to associate with "immoral people" there. It may not be a bad idea to actually read the quotes first before posting them.

9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world

So he cares so much about humanity that he punishes those who do not believe in him with eternal torment and gets angry with anything that is natural, such as sex?

God is a just God. Dont listen to fundies, they dont know what they are talking about. God will be a kind loving God, who deeply understands people.

Adam's not heard of Those Wicked Inuit and Aleut People (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2066/do-eskimo-men-lend-their-wives-to-strangers) either.

It might be fair to say that he has made sweeping statements without learning which end of the broom one should use.


You are right. I need to do more research in absolute morality.


The book of Jubilees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilees), to which Adam refers, is an interesting choice, and I should like to hear his views on its non-inclusion in the canon by the Council of Nicea.

Why stop there, lets look at the Midrash Genesis Rabbah. These books were not included for some reason. Not at the Council Nicea. The OT had already been established by then. Jesus quotes from pretty much every book of the OT, which was in the Hebrew Bible (that excludes Tobit, Book of Enoch etc)

The Bible was around before the council of Nicea, it was canonised, the official stance. So much heresy and new books were being created the catholic church (not RCC) decided what should be officially canonised.


Still, all of Adam's posts thus far hinge on accepting the books of his faith as a starting point. One step back, fellow: what's the basis for the books being acceptable as any authority?

I would like to argue three things. Prophecy, some of the prophecies in the Bible has come true.

Historical reasons. The Bible is a tool for arceology. Names not heard of, had been uncovered eg. the Hities

The lively hood it makes someone live. I dont know where I would be without the Bible. Just another baa-liever. Buying into consumerism. Getting drunk all the time, not caring of my health, acting on what I want, than what is right. God is good. I was alone a lot of years in my life, I had no pastors telling me to believe this and that and not many spiritual leaders. I read the scriptures for myself and God continually showed and shows me what it means to live a life like a Christian, evolution at is best (spiritual evolution)

[Caio]

Ummm, open marriage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_marriage)?? You must be careful with saying that "all cultures think X", im sure that no matter what cultural idea you name, i can find a culture that thinks differently. India is one good example in this situation, it has a cultural history of accepting extramarital sex...

[Caio]

where? eternal damnation is a theory, which isnt even upheld in the Bible.

now who doesn't read the bible??
May i recomend the following passages;

Matthew 18:8 -And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire.

Matthew 25:46- "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life"

Revelations 20:10- And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever

There are many many more...

[Loki]

meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world

What does this mean?

-----------------------------------------------------

Prophesy, history, making people feel good.

Methinks we've been here before.

Go on, name your prophesy, but please make it one which was written before the event, and which gives incontrovertible details.

[Caio]

Mr Black has a point.

It's not up to us to have to continuously educate somebody on the finer points in a topic. If your going to argue from one point of view, at least try to have a reasonable understanding of the topic, and don't make statements which we know to be bullshit. Fair enough, there are occasions where a person may have missed something, not absolutely up to date or some other reasonable explanation for not knowing something. But making statements like the one you made about hell and what it says in the bible, has little or no excuse.
My advice, go and do some reading, the bible is a good place to start, websites like www.religioustolerance.com have a comprehensive overview on multiple faiths, and a very even handed approach to explaining what each one believes. Go and do this, then come back when you have a deeper knowledge of the subject at hand and we may continue this debate.

May the truth set you free!