Consolation for fear of death.

[plastic]

5Char

[GenericBox]

No argument from me, I agree completely - except for the heaven part.

I don't find heaven consoling - I would hate to spend eternity there - eternity on Earth (and then other human-inhabited planets that we may find or colonise) would be comforting for me.

I know fear of death is hardwired, but with our current understanding of science and technology - I fail to see why death should be accepted "just because". If we have the ability to prevent it - in whatever form you may call it (ie - transferring "mind" to machine), for those that chose to, why not?

For me, using the analogy that you can't remember the billions of years before you were born is irrational. "You" didn't exist to have a state of memory. I can't remember World War 1, doesn't make my death any less easier to comprehend.

I guess, the difference between me and a theist is that I'm happy to accept that there is nothing else - scares the shit out of me, but . To be honest I don't think I'd be afraid of death if I was religious - I'd think I would just be going to heaven.

But thats not the case.

[Praxis]

Plastic, I take the view that it will be like going under anaesthetic. You don't know a single thing about it - one minute you're here and a few seconds later ... nothing. I have a feeling that death will be like that.

Doesn't make it any less scary though and I understand totally about the somersaulting guts (is it really a catacholamine surge that does that? Fantastic - learn something new every day :) ).

I think it takes an amount of bravery to not only grasp but accept that our end is our end. Scary, definitely, but really, who among us of the thinking kind can seriously lie to ourselves that there is something more? This is what I don't get about religions and all their blither about surviving their own death and popping out the other side somewhere wonderful, blah blah - it's so obvious that it's all just made up tripe, like soothing a fretful child who can't sleep, designed to quell the quite natural fear of simply not being here any more.

I like to say that I'm not scared of dying and I think that's true but I think when I say it, what I really mean is I'm not scared of dying when I'm good and ready but not now, please not now when I have so much left to do, my son needs me, etc etc. but of course that's a purely one-sided bargain isn't it? I'll go when I go and that's it. :)

It would be too easy to dwell on it but really, it's a waste of time when it's so utterly inevitable but thinking about it from time to time can be a grounding experience - reminding us that we're so very, very finite and so very insignificant in the big scheme of things. Neither your passing, nor mine, nor anyone else's will have an effect on the big picture whatsoever.

But having been here at all is the wonderful part. And as we all know, there's no such thing as a free lunch.

[Phroso]

Dear Plastic,

Of course I understand your natural disinclination to die and the angst you feel when contemplating the prospect.

Incidentally, I notice that you are maintaining a very low personal profile on this forum, so I don't know how far you have progressed along the path of average life expectation.

I know that my attitude towards death was very different when I was a young man. At that time I frequently used the flippant phrase, "live fast, die young and leave a good looking corpse", which was a line used by the actor John Derek in the 1949 movie, Knock on Any Door.

At that time, death was something that I didn't take very seriously. That's probably one of the reasons that young men enter theatres of war more optimistically than old men.

Now, at the age of seventy two, I will have accept the fact that I will soon be middle aged and the likelihood of my demise creeps ever closer!

Consequently, my attitude to death seems to have changed. No more is it a rare happening that can be safely mocked from the security of youth. Now, it is a frequent visitor to my social circle and old friends are starting to fall off the perch with disturbing frequency.

Now I read the obituary column in the daily newspaper with the often realised expectation that I will recognise a name on the list and I occasionally contemplate the fact that my own name will one day grace the page.

Do I fear death? Not really. I feel sure that when my body and mind cease to function I will be oblivious of the fact and totally disinterested in my non-existent condition.

However, I do view the possibility (probability?) of progressive physical and mental deterioration prior to death with some natural apprehension and I hope that the option of euthanasia is available to me, if and when I feel that life has become unendurable.

In everything that lives there is a time to die. We might as well get used to it.

As I write, I am reminded of an evocative little poem by Frances Cornford, it is entitled, The Watch and it reads as follows:

I wakened on my hot, hard bed;

Upon the pillow lay my head;

Beneath the pillow I could hear

My little watch was ticking clear.

I thought the throbbing of it went

Like my continual discontent;

I thought it said in every tick:

I am so sick, so sick, so sick:

O death, come quick, come quick, come quick,
Come quick, come quick, come quick, come quick...

[wolty]

Interesting because I do think atheists value life with all their being (more so than the type that believes in heaven).
The end of it all will be much too soon for all of us no matter what you do or achieve. I tend to feel the same way. There is so much I want to do, but will never have the time to do it all.

Am I afraid of dying? Only to the extent of leaving behind loved ones, and not getting done what I want to.

Death is scary, but the acceptance of the reality of death is very liberating and gives you a special meaning in enjoying your life.


Oh and welcome plastic. Would have said hello in your thread but couldn't.

Btw, plastic lasts for a really really long time. :D

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

I'm not afraid of the process of dying as such, as I know it will be the end. No virgins, no pearly gates waiting, no Big Beardy Man but nothing. Gladly, there are no devils poking red hot tridents at you in a burning environment full of sulfurous odor either.

I am more worried about the aftermath of the process. I am unsure what it is like to "feel" nonexistent.

To be honest I am not sure of what to make of this: I see it as a good thing as well as a bad thing in my case.

[nari]

I am unsure what it is like to "feel" nonexistent.
But but but..you won't feel anything!

nari

[SchizoDeluxe]

Eternal life in heaven I find very consoling, it seems such a terrible shame it is made up.

The idea behind an eternal life, especially from the biblical perspective is not exactly very consoling to me, nor a wish I would ever want to come true. A lot of atheists do wish that there was an afterlife but I fail to see the positive in being a slave for eternity, and on top of that, to have no ability to end it.


The only thought I find vaguely comforting at all is the idea that my brain/mind is hardwired to fear death. (Pinker's Blank Slate convinced me humans do have instincts/ a 'nature' ) It's got to be the most basic tenet of evolution that we would have evolved to seek to avoid death at (pretty much) all costs, that it would be, so to speak, our strongest instinct. Therefore my abject fear of ending is a healthy, typical and possibly unavoidable part of my very normal and average mental state.


Fear is a natural feeling, all animals have it, it is part of how an animal survives. Without it, unecessary risks are taken which can lead to stronger possibilities of death. It's a little different I guess for humans as we have more complex ways of thinking, risk assessments alone are subjective depending on certain factors and we don't always take risks for survival reasons.

[wearestardust]

What mildly annoys me is that when the times comes I may well not know about it. In fact if all goes to plan (and I go with my boots off) I certainly won't. Then again, I won't be around to care.

In the meantime I just get on with crushing my enemies, seeing them driven before me, and hearing the lamentation of their significant others. Luckily I have a profession that enables me to do this most days.

[Mentally Saturated]

On a somewhat related issue. tune in to Four Corners tonite.

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2010/s2810506.htm

""A Good Death"

Reporter: Deborah Masters
Broadcast: 08/02/2010

It's a telling statistic that seven out of ten Australians die what might be called an "expected death". In many cases doctors can tell patients roughly how long they have to live. In reality, only a few take advantage of those warnings. Instead they prefer to believe that somehow modern medicine will save them. Now a small group of doctors and nurses are warning that our obsession with curing illness is leaving patients poorly cared for and unprepared for death."

Gary

[Phroso]

On the subject "What Happens When We Die", you might like to read William Hopper's take on the situation at Heathensguide.com.

In part, he says:

"Religions offer a variety of explanations for death. I (more than most) have been very willing to find one that makes sense, given what we know of the physiology of death. So far, none have. All I’ve ever seen and learned tells me that I will eventually disintegrate into a trillion bits of electricity that will eventually dissipate and becomes worm food. The trick, imho, is not being upset about it. Religions offer hopes and dreams that make this disintegration of the self seem a horrible thing. It’s really only these false hopes that make it all seem bad. We feel short-changed by it only because the fantasy was put in our brains that we would live forever. Most think the belief in Heaven makes this whole process easier, even if it’s not true. Thing is, I’ve read the Holy Books. According to all of them, most of us would never see a Heaven. We’re going to fry in Hell, while a select few get to watch from a cloud somewhere. The safe and secure notions of religion only work for those who believe they are the elite: one of the pure and holy few who will get into Heaven. There’s always a chance I’m wrong. Maybe the religions are right, and the science is incomplete or flawed. But, given the choice of what to believe, I opt for the science. Not just because it has demonstrable evidence, but because it offers far more comfort to me than the religious judgment that many believe is coming. Given what I’ve done with my life thus far, I’m going to feel a whole lot better about things at the Old Age home if I remain an atheist."

See: http://tinyurl.com/y92bzww

[Praxis]

"meme reamed". I love it!

[Fearless]

After watching my step father battle illness recently which ended up in his passing away (aged 89) yeah I do have concerns.

But only just watching the killer Victorian bushfires special on channel two last night reminded me that life has no certainties. All you can hope for is a long happy and healthy life and that your eventual passing is peaceful.

stress and anxiety around the issue will most likely make you ill.

This is all easy to say of course.

[Praxis]

Oh man, wasn't that a hard watch, Fearless? Mr P and I sat mutely throughout the whole thing, only occasionally softly murmuring "those poor bastards" and shaking our heads.

The enormity of it was almost too hard to grasp. It was a most beautifully presented show.

:confused:

[Dane]

I'm not afraid of death as such. I'm just sad that I won't be able to know everything and see how the life of the universe plays out. Or that I won't be around to continue to do good. Of course, that's only for myself. The death of a loved one... I guess you could call it fear. Not a fear of death but the consequences it brings. Loss of relationship, future relationship, loss of earnings, support... that kind of thing.

The idea of heaven does not console me in the slightest. If it was true? Maybe. But as it stands, the only thing that consoles me is myself and family and friends.

Half a year ago, we lost one of our two dogs to old age. He was 19 years and 5 days old, eventually slowing down, getting deafer and blinder. We knew it was inevitable, but you can never prepare for it. Despite being tremendously old, he was full of life and never stopped moving, always on the run. Then, when I woke up that day, hours after my father had taken him for the every morning walk, he was collapsed out back. Later into the night and afternoon at the vet, being on a drip, being pumped with ungodly amounts of morphine and being heated, he was just not getting better, he had pancreatitas. So we had him put down.

The grief was hard for all of us, but I recovered the quickest. Some words from the vet and familial comfort was all I needed. In the weeks that followed I accepted it and moved on, with a literal lifetime of memories to look back on. That was my first (and bloody large) death that affected me. And I still can not understand why people find the idea of an afterlife to be comforting... it saddens me that people can't let go, and have to believe that themselves or their loved ones will continue to live "just beyond sight" with a wink and a nudge.


It's terribly confusing. I've just got to know and face the truth of the world. Then again, as a kid I made up similar stories when my Lego men lost an arm! It simply went on holidays, that's all.

Edit: As an aside, I'm perplexed that we allow animals to be put down to preserve their dignity and to spare them horrible pain, but we view humans as inferior to deal with...

[wearestardust]

Now, I don't for a moment recommend a dissolute life or not caring about one's health or the future, but:


During the mid-1990s, Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother was having tea with the Princess of Wales and Major Michael Parker, the producer of her great birthday parades.

‘We’re so looking forward to your 100th birthday,’ said Diana (the one person in the room who would never see that day).

‘Oh, you mustn’t say that, it’s unlucky,’ the Queen Mother replied. ‘I mean, I might be run over by a big red bus.’ Major Parker politely suggested that this was unlikely.

‘No, no, it’s the principle of the thing,’ she explained. ‘Wouldn’t it be terrible if you’d spent all your life doing everything you were supposed to do, didn’t drink, didn’t smoke, didn’t eat things, took lots of exercise, and suddenly, one day, you were run over by a big red bus and, as the wheels were crunching into you, you’d say, “Oh my God, I could have got so drunk last night”. That’s the way you should live your life, as if tomorrow you’ll be run over by a big red bus.’

[wolty]

After watching my step father battle illness recently which ended up in his passing away (aged 89) yeah I do have concerns.

But only just watching the killer Victorian bushfires special on channel two last night reminded me that life has no certainties. All you can hope for is a long happy and healthy life and that your eventual passing is peaceful.

stress and anxiety around the issue will most likely make you ill.

This is all easy to say of course.

Yes mate agree with you. I am one that feels fortunate every day to have a good life. Most days I actually think of it, I have food on the table, a good job, somewhere to live, good health, some children and I live in a great place. Every day for me is great because of these things and I never take that for granted.

Thinking of death often makes me think of how "lucky" I am compared to others. I don't think I could ever forget that.

[nari]

I tend to agree with the Queen Mother's philosophy.

Having watched my father-in-law miserable for months with his pathetic fat-free, low cal, tasteless diet after his heart attack, I felt quite angry. Aiming for longevity at the cost of enjoyment and quality of life, is crazy. Don't do this, don't do that...said the doc.
He died aged 89, but the last few years were stultified and depressed. Obeying the doc's mantra....

nari

[Dane]

Now, I don't for a moment recommend a dissolute life or not caring about one's health or the future, but...
I'd have to go the Calvin and Hobbes route on this one.

Calvin: Live life like every day was your last, because you never know when you could get hit by a cement truck! What's your life motto?
Hobbes: Look down the road.

[atheist_angel]

Now See. I can't relate to this topic at all.

When I was a believer,
my biggest fear was that my consciousness would still be intact in some capacity.
(floating through space, or as a ghost, or whatever.) In fact, I still have nightmares about it.

I'm glad to know that dead is dead. The whole idea of 'continuing' creeps me out!

[nari]

I watched the 4 corners program and despite the care and consideration handed out by the good staff at the Sacred Heart institution, it still seemed a bit yucky to be around while all systems sloooowly shut down.

There needs to be the option of euthanasia available for those who sincerely want that option while they are compus mentus. They can change their mind as time passes, but that option should be there.

nari

[eclectic]

I don't think I have ever had any fear of death. I won't know about it, so, well, I won't care. Even when I was a theist I don't think I thought about it much... weird I suppose.

I agree with my father's last words - that he was not afraid of dying, but he was really sad about all the life he was going to miss out on. I feel that, but also, when the time comes, I won't be here anymore to miss not being here.

I am MUCH more fearful of other people's deaths - especially hubby. We are not the healthiest folk, but that isn't the issue. It's really from my father - he was very healthy, but died of cancer at age 39, when I was 9. It has left me very aware that my loved ones might leave me prematurely. I don't like this fear in myself, when I think about it I feel awful, and then I think how stupid and wasteful it is to spend my happy, alive & hubby-alive time worrying about it ending!

I wouldn't want to live forever, but I think I would like a guarantee, a good number of years to make all our dreams come true.

[Phroso]

I am MUCH more fearful of other people's deaths - especially hubby. We are not the healthiest folk, but that isn't the issue. It's really from my father - he was very healthy, but died of cancer at age 39, when I was 9. It has left me very aware that my loved ones might leave me prematurely. I don't like this fear in myself, when I think about it I feel awful, and then I think how stupid and wasteful it is to spend my happy, alive & hubby-alive time worrying about it ending!



Fear of death? This fear seems to be invariably expressed by those who are looking forward to reaching advanced old age.

Death is really such an haphazard event. Babies are occasionally stillborn or die shortly after birth, which seems to me to be a particularly disastrous event, given that the child had already overcome such incredibly negative odds in order to achieve the fertilization of the egg. It had then progressed through a nine month gestation only to have its life experience limited to a possible short period in the uterus or the short time after birth.

My own father died of pneumonia at the age of thirty years. I was three at the time and the image of his face in the coffin is burned into my memory. As I grew up I always thought of him as an old man, until, on the day of my own thirtieth birthday, I realised how just how young he had really been.

When I was fourteen, my best friend Barry Tate died. He was also fourteen and was a victim of Scarlet Fever. I still remember the shock of seeing him pale and lifeless in his coffin.

As a parent, I experience some occasional anxiety when I contemplate the health and safety of my daughter. Something, let me hasten to add, that has no real justification given that she is a healthy and beautiful twenty two year old. As a father, I doubt that I will ever lose my concern for her well being.

I am now of relatively advanced years and thankful for the years and many experiences that I have enjoyed. My remaining years no longer seem boundless, yet I get some small comfort from the old saying, "Every old man can say that he was once a young man but not every young man can say that he will be an old man".

Death, to me, is like a serious and necessary medical operation which is inevitable and consequently must be endured. The only difference is that Death will not allow me to awaken from the anaesthesia.

In the meantime, life is an amazing and precious experience which I will endeavour to enjoy until the final sleep arrives.

Heres a little story that I like to relate:

"The Appointment in Samarra"

(as retold by W. Somerset Maugham [1933])

The speaker is Death

There was a merchant in Bagdad who sent his servant to market to buy provisions and in a little while the servant came back, white and trembling, and said, Master, just now when I was in the marketplace I was jostled by a woman in the crowd and when I turned I saw it was Death that jostled me.
She looked at me and made a threatening gesture, now, lend me your horse, and I will ride away from this city and avoid my fate. I will go to Samarra and there Death will not find me.
The merchant lent him his horse, and the servant mounted it, and he dug his spurs in its flanks and as fast as the horse could gallop he went.
Then the merchant went down to the marketplace and he saw me standing in the crowd and he came to me and said, Why did you make a threatening gesture to my servant when you saw him this morning?
That was not a threatening gesture, I said, it was only a start of surprise. I was astonished to see him in Bagdad, for I had an appointment with him tonight in Samarra.


And a final quote from the Bard.


Cowards die many times before their deaths; The valiant never taste of death but once.
Of all the wonders that I yet have heard, it seems to me most strange that men should fear;
Seeing that death, a necessary end, will come when it will come".

(Julius Caesar Act II, Scene II).

[Godless Ray]

Plastic,

It hits me now and again also. I remember listening to Patch Adams talking about it on the radio and he said death is the one thing we can't experience. In this funny way, it is somewhat like a kind of immortality if we can't actually experience the end. Though I hate the thought of the loss of my experiences and memories forever. But you know athiests are fairly deep thinkers and its not unusual that your going to think about this.

Godless Ray

[A Monkey Shaved]

It is impossible to be aware of your nothingness

[SchizoDeluxe]

Speaking of death, my girlfriend lost her grandfather a few days ago, flying to Melbourne for the funeral on Friday. I never met him and she wasn't particularly close to him but it's still sad to see. And I just found a neighbours cat in our backyard who also died. It looked like it was sleeping as it was always hanging around our yard to rest or nap, but this time when I tried to get it's attention it never moved. The worst part was having to go to our neighbours to tell them the bad news. It didn't look like anything happened to the cat, probably old age as we were told it was 15. But things like this always make me think about life and death and as much as we fear the inevitable, you know that it will happen, to everyone and everything.

[Godless Ray]

Schitzo, do you think being aware of death specifically as an atheist allows you a unique appreciation of life? For example, do the smaller irritating things still irritate? I found for myself it alters things considerably.

[SchizoDeluxe]

Small things only irritate me if I'm already in a shit mood otherwise, no I see a much bigger picture in the universe, the insignificance of our actions here on earth always overcomes the pointless things in life for me. So in that respect, yeah I appreciate life differently but I think it largely has a lot to do with ageing and maturing more than my atheist perspective though it definitly helps.