The Spiritual Experience And Eventual Emergence Of ClayMonk [Archive]

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 11:30 AM

What was this spiritual experience, and how does it distinguish between similar spiritual experiences with the Muslim god?

I answered a similar question on another forum so I will re-post that rather than type it again. I'm not sure how it differs from a Muslim, I am yet to meet a Muslim that did not decide to become a Muslim rather than having a spiritual experience which led them to become a believer, which is what I call born-again. I tried to do a bit of Google research but could only find Muslims that converted to Christianity, so the answer to that is I don't know.

I grew up in a Lutheran church but ditched it when I was in my early teens, I never met God there (got born again), I just got told all the rhetoric and pretty much concluded that it was a crock of shit, that Christians were a bunch of hypocrites with sticks up there asses, and I hated church. I was never one to conform, I hated school and dropped out at the end of year ten, got smashed out on drugs and ended up a junkie.

A few years later when I was about 18 I ended up with this girl and she started going to a church around the corner, she got saved (born again) one week and then started trying to get me to go. I kept resiting because I hated church and hated Christians, but she was a girl and put her girl powers on me and one week I went. When I was there during the worship time I felt uncomfortable because it wasn't an environment I was used to at all but also felt a bit like something spiritual was around which was weird, I felt uneasy all the way through worship. The preacher got up and did his thing which was also weird to me but I still felt like something spiritual was around. He finished up his preaching and said some other stuff which I can't remember and called anyone to the front that would like to give their life to Jesus, I felt like I should go up which I can't explain because before I went there I hated Christians, but anyway I felt that I should go up, and I was very bold back then so I just walked straight up. The guy put his hand on my head and prayed something, as he prayed I felt something like a bolt of electricity go from head to my feet and then a constant buzz through my body for a little while after. They took me out back gave me a bible said some stuff which I can't remember and prayed for me again. I was feeling quite euphoric by this stage and probably a little bit dazed by it all. I went and dropped the girl and her friend off, I had an E55 Charger at that stage which was cool, nothing to do with this but worth a mention. Anyway on the way home I felt what I can only describe as the presence of God surround me in my car, I started crying and feeling sorry for the bad things I had done in my life and just started saying sorry to God, I cried doing this all the way home, as I did the burdens and weight of my sin were being taken off me. I didn't even realise I had the weight and burdens prior to that happening. I got home still crying and started saying sorry to mum and dad for stuff I had done to them and told them what had happened, I thought because they were Christians (supposedly) they would be happy but they thought I had lost the plot. I went to bed that night with what I can only describe as the presence of God still surrounding me, woke up and started my new journey with God. That was the first time I encountered God, and how I got born again.

Sir Patrick Crocodile

30th January 2010, 11:35 AM

I am an ex-Muslim and I have heard of a few Muslims who have had similar spiritual experiences with Allah before.

Also, I suspect it was the pressure of "girl-power" rather than finding God and spiritual experience. Have you considered that it was just a bit of "girly pressure" inflicted upon you to believe, rather than actually a god?

I was never one to conform, I hated school and dropped out at the end of year ten, got smashed out on drugs and ended up a junkie.

What difference does that make? I have heard this one before. The reason you probably ended up as a junkie was because you chose too, as opposed to you being forced to do this.

It probably was not God that helped you, but your returning to your original upbringing that did. I know the church is a crock of shit, yet I am no junkie, otherwise I wouldn't even know of this forum.

I went to bed that night with what I can only describe as the presence of God still surrounding me, woke up and started my new journey with God.

So what was the presence of God like? How could you have just "woken up" and "started a new journey with God" without knowing what the presence of God is like? To me it just seems illogical don't you think?

Note as well, you mentioned you were a drug junkie right? Well I was an overdosing maniac before I became an atheist, I overdosed on prescription medication, even taking up to 30 times the prescribed doses, and six suicide attempts. All that while I was in my religious and/or agnostic phases.

No suicide attempts or significant overdoses since I decided to be 100% atheist!

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 11:37 AM

I have trouble with this as I've had many experiences that make me feel weird and in awe etc but always put it down to my mind playing with me. Seems a big jump to assume the supernatural is involved. Plus I don't really understand what you mean by spiritual... and I thought the Jews, Muslims and Christians all worshipped the same god. How can you tell the difference? Was it perhaps indoctrination and location as a child that made you think the "spiritual" experience was a christian deity?

How can you have trouble with something that you know nothing about? You have trouble with it prior to even asking what it was that happened, then go on to make numerous assumptions.

The first encounter I had with you was that you asked "Why are you not a Muslem?", I can only assume this was a loaded question, then when I answer it you have trouble understanding before you seek any clarification, then you load the gun again with assumptions. I can only conclude that you ask questions through your presuppositions with some kind of agenda rather than genuinely ask out of interest.

DistroMan

30th January 2010, 11:41 AM

I'll just grab my Pina Colada and go watch the sunset while laying in my hammock over near those two lovely Palm trees. Aloha... :)

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 11:46 AM

I am an ex-Muslim and I have heard of a few Muslims who have had similar spiritual experiences with Allah before.

Ok, cool, like I said I have never heard of that.

Also, I suspect it was the pressure of "girl-power" rather than finding God and spiritual experience. Have you considered that it was just a bit of "girly pressure" inflicted upon you to believe, rather than actually a god?

Yeah there was definitely "girl-power" involved, no question but it stopped at just going to church. I was trying to laid (which didn't work BTW but i'm glad now), I had absolutely no pressure to "do anything" so I can't conclude that all that happened by "girl-power". Think about that rationally for a second, "girl power" caused all of that to happen to me.

What difference does that make? I have heard this one before. The reason you probably ended up as a junkie was because you chose too, as opposed to you being forced to do this.

Yes, I absolutely chose to, no argument there. I am merely saying what happened to me which was a response to a question, I am not trying to prove God's existence.

It probably was not God that helped you, but your returning to your original upbringing that did. I know the church is a crock of shit, yet I am no junkie, otherwise I wouldn't even know of this forum.

My life changed after that experience, I did not return to my original upbringing and I distance myself from that and the Lutheran church (or any religious institution for that matter). I didn't become a junkie because I thought the church was a crock of shit, I just thought it was a crock of shit and coincidently became a junkie the two are not linked.

Sir Patrick Crocodile

30th January 2010, 11:58 AM

My life changed after that experience, I did not return to my original upbringing and I distance myself from that and the Lutheran church (or any religious institution for that matter). I didn't become a junkie because I thought the church was a crock of shit, I just thought it was a crock of shit and coincidently became a junkie the two are not linked.I think that you made a conscious choice to change your life, that was no spiritual experience. Unless that is what a 'spiritual experience' is meant to be. The irony of you saying that you distance yourself from any religious institution, is that you are a Christian and you go to a Christian church. That is a religious institution in that context as well. Also I think your mind is playing strange tricks on you as Protium mentioned, if I had to guess it is probably long-term side effects of the drugs:I have trouble with this as I've had many experiences that make me feel weird and in awe etc but always put it down to my mind playing with me. Seems a big jump to assume the supernatural is involved. Plus I don't really understand what you mean by spiritual... and I thought the Jews, Muslims and Christians all worshipped the same god. How can you tell the difference? Was it perhaps indoctrination and location as a child that made you think the "spiritual" experience was a christian deity?

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 12:02 PM

@ClayMonk: What you describe seems to be a very people-centric phenomenon.

(You can have a go at my previous religious experiences if you like: I'm in the process of writing them up over HERE (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=1583).)

Okay i'll take a look when I get a chance.

You're now socially embedded, which means you couldn't exactly leave religion since immediate community (wife), wider community (church) and possibly even job depend on your staying aligned with the religion thing.

Does this require lots of your own energy to keep going?

No, i'm not socially embedded, in fact I am probably socially excluded from the church I go to, I don't go there to have friends or belong to a "club" therefore I don't really fit in properly and that doesn't bother me at all. My wife doesn't really pressure or anything, I don't think it would be an issue if I wasn't a Christian. So it doesn't take any energy, it's quite the opposite, thing are easier with God in my life than out of it (yes I go through periods where I block him out).

Sir Patrick Crocodile

30th January 2010, 12:05 PM

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 12:09 PM

I think that you made a conscious choice to change your life, that was no spiritual experience. Unless that is what a 'spiritual experience' is meant to be. The irony of you saying that you distance yourself from any religious institution, is that you are a Christian and you go to a Christian church. That is a religious institution in that context as well. Also I think your mind is playing strange tricks on you as Protium mentioned, if I had to guess it is probably long-term side effects of the drugs:

Of course it is a choice, there has to be a choice, one can't float around in spiritual lala without making any decisions.

It's not ironic to say I distance myself from religious institutions, I don't wan't to be "boxed in" (especially by an institution that has very few born-again believers), hence I distance myself from it, that doesn't mean I don't attend a church for my own reasons.

lol @ the drugs comment.

wearestardust

30th January 2010, 12:18 PM

How can you have trouble with something that you know nothing about? You have trouble with it prior to even asking what it was that happened, then go on to make numerous assumptions.

1. Many of us are ex theists who know exactly what you are talking about, and we agree that religious 'spiritual' experiences are not real. I don't know if this includes protium, but he would be working off his own reasoning about what is, and isn't, consistent with which is the evidence of those of us who've been there and concluded it is false.

2. When you see frequently repeated patterns one can start making assumptions about them. That is how knowledge starts (and indeed some people would argue that regularity and intelligiblity of frequently repeated patterns in nature is itself an argument for god). So far you are part of a frequently repeated pattern on this forum.

The first encounter I had with you was that you asked "Why are you not a Muslem?"

I think you misunderstood the question. The question is, as was clarified but I'm not sure you've picked it up yet, "why did you pick christianity versus any other religion?". With the supplementary question being "what was it about your spiritual experience that was definitively christian". One might ask the further question: "and why was your spirititual experience more valid or correct than the spiritual experiences of non-christian theists"? I should point out, to be fair, that that question does tend to leave you with a choice of denying the validity of some people's spiritual experience which - if you are going to rely on the evidence of "I just know its true" - undercuts the validity of your own spiritual experience as well; or if all are valid, then it undercuts claims about the unique status and mission of Jesus.

btw (1): yes, many Muslims are deeply spiritual. Indeed I would say on average Islam through its history has been on average a more spiritual religion than christianity which tends to try and flirt with intellectualism. I should say that while many of us here are concerned about the intrinsic evil of religion, what gets some of us really worked up is bad research and poor argument.

btw (2) Dude. Spelling is optional but: please, paragraphs, please. Srsly.

Loki

30th January 2010, 12:21 PM

Why is the distintion between "born again" and other christians important to you? I'm not even sure I understand the distinction.

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 12:22 PM

Can you explain how life is easier with God as opposed to life without it? I found mine is HARDER with God since there's all that fear of going to Hell and all that health-depriving rubbish activities you MUST do and what not. So how is your life easier with God then?

It appears to be because you have a misunderstanding of God, if you are born-again why would you go to hell? What is there that you must do?

To say that it is YOU that saves you or YOU that must do this and that is to say that God isn't good enough, you have to do things by your own effort to please God, rather than what Jesus did pleasing God for you.

I looked up some porn yesterday and had a wank, i'm really disappointed about that, but I cannot do anything or not do anything to earn forgiveness for it, Jesus earned my forgiveness for me and I'm sorry that I did it because of that but it doesn't separate me from God. You're looking at it through rules and regulations, I don't want to look at porn and have a wank because I know God doesn't like it and because it's not good for my marriage, it's because I don't WANT to not because I HAVE to. So I usually ask for his help not to and he does help (didn't ask when tempted yesterday).

Loki

30th January 2010, 12:28 PM

How do you know god doesn't like porn?

(large and small breasts included, for followers of other threads)

wearestardust

30th January 2010, 12:31 PM

It appears to be because you have a misunderstanding of God, if you are born-again why would you go to hell?

Don't look at us. There is a wide variety of Christian views on this. But I take it that, even when born again, one can sin sufficiently to lose salvation. I was born again but look at me. I mean, I don't lie, steal or commit adultery, but I'm pretty much lost as far as tithing, going to church, being anti-gay and mysoginistic and all that other really core christian stuff.

To say that it is YOU that saves you or YOU that must do this and that is to say that God isn't good enough, you have to do things by your own effort to please God, rather than what Jesus did pleasing God for you.

wut? I suspect the word "then" or "therefore" is needed somewhere, but I don't know where.

I looked up some porn yesterday and had a wank,...

Too. much. info.

Dan Gleibitz

30th January 2010, 12:32 PM

What I would like to understand is the nature of the experience people claim to have had. Did they see something you believe to be supernatural? Did they hear something you believe to be supernatural? Or are they talking about some kind of good/bad/happy/sad feeling?

You wrote:
I felt uncomfortable [...] felt a bit like something spiritual was around [...] I felt uneasy all the way through worship. The preacher [...] did his thing which was also weird [...] felt like something spiritual was around.

I've removed the words that don't add to my understanding of your experience - hope this is okay.

on the way home I felt [...] the presence of God surround me in my car, I started crying and feeling sorry [...] I cried doing this all the way home, as I did the burdens and weight of my sin were being taken off me.
[...]
I went to bed that night with what I can only describe as the presence of God still surrounding me

So you felt uncomfortable, uneasy, weird, sad and sorry. And you felt "something spiritual"/"presence of God" as well as "the weight of sin". The sum of these = your spiritual experience? The first five appear to be emotions or otherwise internally-generated 'sensations', right? Also interestingly, all negative?

The last three I take it were external 'sensations'? If so, can you better explain how you sensed them?

Sir Patrick Crocodile

30th January 2010, 12:33 PM

It appears to be because you have a misunderstanding of God, if you are born-again why would you go to hell? What is there that you must do?

To say that it is YOU that saves you or YOU that must do this and that is to say that God isn't good enough, you have to do things by your own effort to please God, rather than what Jesus did pleasing God for you.But what about when you commit sins? If you disobey at least one of the Ten Commandments then he will send you to hell won't he? Unless of course you somehow ask for forgiveness...

I looked up some porn yesterday and had a wank, i'm really disappointed about that, but I cannot do anything or not do anything to earn forgiveness for it, Jesus earned my forgiveness for me and I'm sorry that I did it because of that but it doesn't separate me from God.Nothing wrong with the natural. You see with God comes shame of doing shameless things.

You're looking at it through rules and regulations, I don't want to look at porn and have a wank because I know God doesn't like it and because it's not good for my marriage, it's because I don't WANT to not because I HAVE to. So I usually ask for his help not to and he does help (didn't ask when tempted yesterday).God doesn't like it when you do not stone disobedient children or burn witches or stone adulterers or treat your wife equally to yourself. Although none of those would be good for your marriage either.

wearestardust

30th January 2010, 12:35 PM

God doesn't like it when you do not stone disobedient children or burn witches or stone adulterers or treat your wife equally to yourself. Although none of those would be good for your marriage either.

Don't forget that, while not obligatory, eating one's children is perfectly permissable when in extremis. We are in a global financial crisis after all.

Oh, also: god really really hates interest on loans.

Sir Patrick Crocodile

30th January 2010, 12:36 PM

I thought this was just a crazy thing Islamic prophet fellows came up with:Oh, also: god really really hates interest on loans.I got told EXACTLY THAT (replace God with Allah though) in madrassa when I was a small boi.

gruber

30th January 2010, 12:38 PM

When you had your supernatural expiernce was Sam and Dean there

wearestardust

30th January 2010, 12:39 PM

or treat your wife equally to yourself.

:rolleyes:you don't understand theology, Croc.

You see, in christianity, women are equal, but different.

Different in that they aren't supposed to teach on religious matters, shouldn't hold down jobs (at least not after being married), have a primary role of looking after children, cannot have authority in the church, should focus on looking good for their husbands (on this point, skirts please: pants are a no-no), should have sex with their husbands on demand, be silent around men, be subordinate to their husbands ... etc.

So like I said. Different. But in a very real, religious and spiritual sense: equal.

wearestardust

30th January 2010, 12:43 PM

I thought this was just a crazy thing Islamic prophet fellows came up with:I got told EXACTLY THAT (replace God with Allah though) in madrassa when I was a small boi.

It's in the old testament. But its one of this bits that christians generally ignore but Muslims tend to abide by a bit more frequently: hence muslim banking. But you will see christian groups who believe in saving, not borrowing. They're the ones who are renting and drive used cars.

That said, nothing gets the attention of a new-car salesperson as when they ask "will you need finance" and you respond "no I'll use EFTPOS".

OK it was a cheap new car.

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 01:17 PM

1. Many of us are ex theists who know exactly what you are talking about, and we agree that religious 'spiritual' experiences are not real. I don't know if this includes protium, but he would be working off his own reasoning about what is, and isn't, consistent with which is the evidence of those of us who've been there and concluded it is false.

2. When you see frequently repeated patterns one can start making assumptions about them. That is how knowledge starts (and indeed some people would argue that regularity and intelligiblity of frequently repeated patterns in nature is itself an argument for god). So far you are part of a frequently repeated pattern on this forum.

Ok, yeah I understand that.

I think you misunderstood the question. The question is, as was clarified but I'm not sure you've picked it up yet, "why did you pick christianity versus any other religion?". With the supplementary question being "what was it about your spiritual experience that was definitively christian". One might ask the further question: "and why was your spirititual experience more valid or correct than the spiritual experiences of non-christian theists"? I should point out, to be fair, that that question does tend to leave you with a choice of denying the validity of some people's spiritual experience which - if you are going to rely on the evidence of "I just know its true" - undercuts the validity of your own spiritual experience as well; or if all are valid, then it undercuts claims about the unique status and mission of Jesus.

I think people here are getting me way wrong, I don't care about the validity of others experiences, I am not trying to prove to anyone that the Christian God exists. I am simply answering questions, look back over this thread and you will see that this all started by me just introducing myself, i'm now in "fantasy island".

btw (1): yes, many Muslims are deeply spiritual. Indeed I would say on average Islam through its history has been on average a more spiritual religion than christianity which tends to try and flirt with intellectualism. I should say that while many of us here are concerned about the intrinsic evil of religion, what gets some of us really worked up is bad research and poor argument.

See above I did not bring this up, I simply answered a question. I don't know what Muslims experience, and I don't the square root of 74893728974 so if I get asked any of these question I will say what little I do know or a simple "I don't know".

btw (2) Dude. Spelling is optional but: please, paragraphs, please. Srsly.

Yeah I used to use more paragraphs but one of my masters tutors told me I didn't use enough commas so I started using more commas instead of paragraphs. That might be something I need to look into.

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 01:20 PM

Why is the distintion between "born again" and other christians important to you? I'm not even sure I understand the distinction.

I don't believe you're a Christian unless you're born again so the distinction is important to me. It is a spiritual rebirth.

wolty

30th January 2010, 01:21 PM

Should I run a book on this?

Total posts.
Time in days.
Number of relevant posts.
Length of time Claymonk stays.
Logical fallacies.
Questions answered.

Do I sound like GB yet? :D

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 01:23 PM

ha ha... um.. No.. That is all your assumptions. I am genuinely asking these questions as I have never experienced what you are taking about and need clarification.

Yeah I looked back on those posts and you're right, I think my posts were defensive. I hear the "why don't you believe in such and such god then" all the time and jumped to conclusions, my apologies.

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 01:25 PM

Don't look at us. There is a wide variety of Christian views on this. But I take it that, even when born again, one can sin sufficiently to lose salvation. I was born again but look at me. I mean, I don't lie, steal or commit adultery, but I'm pretty much lost as far as tithing, going to church, being anti-gay and mysoginistic and all that other really core christian stuff.

How were you born-again, what happened?

wut? I suspect the word "then" or "therefore" is needed somewhere, but I don't know where.

You try responding to five posts at a time.

Too. much. info.

Righto

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 01:31 PM

What I would like to understand is the nature of the experience people claim to have had. Did they see something you believe to be supernatural? Did they hear something you believe to be supernatural? Or are they talking about some kind of good/bad/happy/sad feeling?

So you felt uncomfortable, uneasy, weird, sad and sorry. And you felt "something spiritual"/"presence of God" as well as "the weight of sin". The sum of these = your spiritual experience? The first five appear to be emotions or otherwise internally-generated 'sensations', right? Also interestingly, all negative?

The last three I take it were external 'sensations'? If so, can you better explain how you sensed them?

Yes when I encountered God I had all sorts of sensations and emotions. I'm not sure what else could of happened. Should have I stood there like a statue blocking out the sensations, trying to use my rational mind to logically understand something spiritual?

They were not negative sensations or emotions, i'd love to have them on tap.

Fearless

30th January 2010, 01:32 PM

I think people here are getting me way wrong, I don't care about the validity of others experiences, I am not trying to prove to anyone that the Christian God exists. I am simply answering questions, look back over this thread and you will see that this all started by me just introducing myself, i'm now in "fantasy island".

Your thread is in Fantasy Island, not you ;)

Personally, I hope it stays that way assuming everything stays 'nice' and 'civil'

Loki

30th January 2010, 01:34 PM

I don't believe you're a Christian unless you're born again so the distinction is important to me. It is a spiritual rebirth.

Yet you attend a church full of unborn agains (if I read your posts right). Does this mean you subscribe to the content, scripture and rituals of that church, even if you don't feel you "belong"? How does having a "spiritual" event make you better or more saved than the other attendees? Are they somehow lesser people?

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 01:43 PM

But what about when you commit sins? If you disobey at least one of the Ten Commandments then he will send you to hell won't he? Unless of course you somehow ask for forgiveness...

The concept of Christianity is that Jesus died for our sins, not that we can't sin or we go to hell.

Nothing wrong with the natural. You see with God comes shame of doing shameless things.

If you don't believe in objective morality then no there is nothing wrong with it. Regardless I said that it doesn't separate me from God so why is it shameful? shame that I did that action and disappointment that I did that action are not synonymous.

I don't think it's natural to look at pornography and masturbate or more correctly to fantasise about another women and then act on that fantasy. The grass is greener where you water it even in a purely logical sense, fantasising about another woman only draws your heart away from your wife.

God doesn't like it when you do not stone disobedient children or burn witches or stone adulterers or treat your wife equally to yourself. Although none of those would be good for your marriage either.

I don't know about those old testament commandments to tell you the truth. I didn't pick up the Bible one day and go "oh my, this is the inerrant word of God!'. I don't know if it's inerrant, all I that I know is that I met God and i'm on a journey with Him.

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 01:46 PM

Yet you attend a church full of unborn agains (if I read your posts right). Does this mean you subscribe to the content, scripture and rituals of that church, even if you don't feel you "belong"? How does having a "spiritual" event make you better or more saved than the other attendees? Are they somehow lesser people?

No you read it wrong.

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 01:51 PM

All the Wonder Stuff can be reproduced by Derren Brown without use of a god.

Can't say I've seen that before, can you explain to me logically and rationally how he is doing it please?

There's not more than this feeling/voice in the head, is there? Presence of other perceived phenomena can be the sign of illness.

Spiritual encounters result in feelings, can't help that.

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 01:52 PM

Should I run a book on this?

Total posts.
Time in days.
Number of relevant posts.
Length of time Claymonk stays.
Logical fallacies.
Questions answered.

Just trying to be polite, wow i'm up to junior member already.

Loki

30th January 2010, 01:52 PM

No, i'm not socially embedded, in fact I am probably socially excluded from the church I go to, I don't go there to have friends or belong to a "club" therefore I don't really fit in properly and that doesn't bother me at all.

So you go to a born again church but don't feel you belong. Ok, got it now.

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 01:58 PM

So you go to a born again church but don't feel you belong. Ok, got it now.

Yes because rightly or wrongly I isolate myself, I don't want to be part of a "club".

Sir Patrick Crocodile

30th January 2010, 02:10 PM

The concept of Christianity is that Jesus died for our sins, not that we can't sin or we go to hell.So then his death is useless because people still commit sins.
If you don't believe in objective morality then no there is nothing wrong with it. Regardless I said that it doesn't separate me from God so why is it shameful? shame that I did that action and disappointment that I did that action are not synonymous.

I don't think it's natural to look at pornography and masturbate or more correctly to fantasise about another women and then act on that fantasy. The grass is greener where you water it even in a purely logical sense, fantasising about another woman only draws your heart away from your wife.So what is objective morality then? Also if it wasn't natural why did you do it? It doesn't matter whether or not you are sorry for it, you still did it.

I don't know about those old testament commandments to tell you the truth. I didn't pick up the Bible one day and go "oh my, this is the inerrant word of God!'. I don't know if it's inerrant, all I that I know is that I met God and i'm on a journey with Him.You "met" something by "magical methods" and then thought of it as the innerant word of God and it is quite obvious given previous "spiritual experience" statements you made. What journey is it? What is the point of a journey with an unknown or no destination?

Loki

30th January 2010, 02:11 PM

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 02:11 PM

The apostle Paul said you should all be in together, loving each other (in a nice brotherly sense). Why are you apart? Is there another church where you feel more at home?

To be honest the church I go to become very system orientated and lost it's heart or I suppose you could call it loving culture. It's sort of getting that back now but I still don't like to be institutionalised, I don't think that was the intention for the church.

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 02:15 PM

I find it all a bit confusing. You see there is only one group of atheists, those people who aren't aware of any evidence for the supernatural, yet there seems to be ever increasing myriads of groups of theists. I've heard theists say their belief gives their life "certainty", yet how can you have certainty when everyone has a different brand of "certainty". It all gets a bit too much for me.

That's a very black and white way of thinking, there are many groups of atheists. If you apply your simplicity to theists then there is only one group, those that think a god exists.

Do all atheists think the same?

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 02:19 PM

Mind tricks. Look up "Neuro-linguistic programming". He is helping the subjects fool themselves, which involves less effort than fooling them in opposition to their wishes.

So do you think preachers and whoever are really trying to "fool" and manipulate people? i'm not quite sure of the point.

Feelings don't necessarily mean there were actually spiritual encounters. You can't refute that.

The encounters with God produce the feelings not visa-versa and I am not sure that I will ever be able to logically articulate that.

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 02:28 PM

Let's take it slowly.

One group of atheists: defined by "people who aren't aware of any evidence for the supernatural";

Many groups of theists: defined by (whatever they worship), (how they worship), (varying tenets of faith), but united in a large set called "certainty".

Do you see how your riposte may have been incorrect?

No that's still simplistic, it's like me saying theists are "people who believe in a god" therefore there are no differences. If you drill it down there are many differences, the same with atheists.

By the way, atheist have nothing to prove. Your nothing requires some proof.

I'm not trying to prove anything, like I said I just came on here and introduced myself.

GenericBox

30th January 2010, 02:39 PM

ClayMonk - it is not simplistic (however your understanding may be) - so let's go even slower shall we...

Yes, a theist believes in God, an atheist doesn't.

But the common denominator (God), can then split theist up into several subgroups, (for "simplicities" sake let's go the main three) - God can split Theist into : Christian God, Muslim God and Jewish God, (and then Hindu Gods, Buddhist "Gods", etc etc).

Then with the common denominator God, you can split Christianity into even smaller subgroups, the same (but perhaps less) with Islam and Judaism.

You cannot split atheists any smaller than that common denominator. Atheists don't believe in any god. You can't split atheists into those that don't believe in just the Christian god, or the Muslim god. It's just no gods. Full stop.

The only way you can split atheists - is on an individual level - on completely irrelevant/individual issues. Is it not logical because these issues also vary per individual theists - therefore they are not common denominators.

The only common denominator between a theist and atheist is god/s. Theists split into many, atheists are just one.

How do you split atheists in the same way theists are split?

Edit: tImB beat me to the post. Damn you to hell!

two dogs

30th January 2010, 02:41 PM

So then his death is useless because people still commit sins.

Is just 36 hours of being "dead" really a "death"? ;) I think that Mark Twain summed it up well, viz:"Jesus died to save men - a small thing for an immortal to do, and didn't save many, anyway."
:)

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 02:42 PM

The point is that trickery can and does occur. I'm sure you're familiar with social engineering, though maybe not by that name. When the kid sees monsters under the bed, and you go along with the fiction to drive out the monsters, your intent is not wicked, but you participate.

I have attended classes in exciting people to the point of hysteria: they called it "worship" back then in the AOG, but the result is the same.

You don't need a god for these things to happen. That is the point.

Point taken but I personally know preachers and they have absolutely no intent or agenda other than to glorify Jesus Christ.

No, you have "encounters" which produce feelings. You cannot prove god by those feelings.

I'm not trying to prove God, I don't think I can prove God.

How could you possibly? It may be merely a more sophisticated form of masturbation, where you tickle your own mind to a happy place.

I don't tickle it though, I don't think about it or try hard and I don't think God respects self effort.

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 02:47 PM

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 02:50 PM

And "feeling god" is like a boner: no effort required once the pleasurable state is learned. See Derren Brown on recalling drug states in supplied video previously. The feeling does not validate the existence of a god.

Yeah but that doesn't even scrape the surface and begin to explain what happened to me and what still does happen to me. I really can't relate my experiences of the Christian God to the analogy of getting a boner.

Loki

30th January 2010, 03:00 PM

Okay, so you can't split atheists into groups because fundamentally they have no proposition. Is that something that you want to parade around as some kind of good thing?

I think you miss the point. We have no proposition because there is no proposition to be made. We are not positing that something exists. I personally think it is some kind of good thing, not inventing something to satisfy some inner longing. Celebrate reason.

Dan Gleibitz

30th January 2010, 04:38 PM

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 05:21 PM

But if there is nothing more than a pleasurable state you initiate, with no other person in the room, how is it better than a luxury wank?

Certainly, to the observer, you are having a good time on your own in both cases, whether the imagined other party is Miss July or Mr Jehovah.

It is more than a pleasurable state that I initiate and Yes that's exactly what it looks like to an observer. I have no problems with the fact that it appears weird.

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 05:22 PM

Those mystical experiences, by the way, are unsubstantiated claims.

Yep totally agree.

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 05:36 PM

I'm not suggesting you should have done anything. I'm trying to understand what your spiritual experience consisted of. I'm confused though - you recounted the claimed spiritual experience with the words "uncomfortable", "uneasy", "weird", "sorry" + crying a lot, but now say these "were not negative sensations or emotions". How is that?

You say you had "had all sorts of sensations and emotions" "when [you] encountered God". But surely having sensations and emotions alone could not only be caused by the "presence of god"? Shit, I have sensations and emotions often, constantly even! :p

I may be confusing myself now... let's again. You claim to have had a close encounter with a supernatural being. On the basis of what you have written, either:
The sum evidence for this encounter with a supernatural being is that you "had all sorts of sensations and emotions".
OR
There was evidence that you had an encounter with a supernatural being and these "sensations and emotions" merely occurred at the same time.

If it's the former, I don't understand how you arrived at surety of a supernatural experience, let alone surety that you experienced a close encounter with the particular brand of Xtian god you now believe in. If it's the latter, then what?

It's the former, if you rocked up at a church and that happened what would you conclude? I'd love to know because i'm
not trying to conclude that it was God by ignorance to any other explaination. It's just that I have not heard any other credible explaination.

To answer your other question, when I first had a spiritual encounter it was weird and uncomfortable. In the same way that you moon walking would be weird and uncomfortable, it's something you have never experienced and completely new. The crying was relief, not sad and saying sorry to God is not guilt sorry it's a relief sorry when you're in absolute awe.

Loki

30th January 2010, 05:44 PM

It's just that I have not heard any other credible explaination.

It's just that I have never heard any credible explanation, and would really like to understand this.

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 05:45 PM

I think you miss the point. We have no proposition because there is no proposition to be made. We are not positing that something exists. I personally think it is some kind of good thing, not inventing something to satisfy some inner longing. Celebrate reason.

The original argument was that Christian groups were fragmented and atheists were not, and somehow that was more admiral. Atheists are not fragmented because they have no proposition and I don't think there is anything admiral about that.

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 05:48 PM

It's just that I have never heard any credible explanation, and would really like to understand this.

Me too

Loki

30th January 2010, 05:53 PM

"It just kind of is, like, you know", doesn't seem like much to base a belief system on, I tend to want some evidence before I sign on the dotted line.

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 06:16 PM

"It just kind of is, like, you know", doesn't seem like much to base a belief system on, I tend to want some evidence before I sign on the dotted line.

I'm not asking you to sign on a dotted line, you initiated this not me. There is no evidence for the existance for God, my experience is not evidence to you and I don't claim it to be.

Sir Patrick Crocodile

30th January 2010, 06:17 PM

So if even you admit there is no evidence for the existence of your god then how can you possibly believe in "spiritual experiences" with him or even believe in him or even be a Christian for a start?

Loki

30th January 2010, 07:09 PM

Oh well, you can only try to be nice, not our fault people come with hidden agendas.

Fearless

30th January 2010, 07:36 PM

I had a glimmer of hope for a minute there but I still haven't learnt have I. Congratulations on pushing me further away :mad:

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 07:42 PM

Admiral? Hello, sailor!

Lol yes I meant admirable.

Your argument over on the footy forum is full of holes. And you've come here for more of the same?

Let's replay for the home viewers...

You are behaving like you are my parent and have found me with some marijuana. I have nothing to hide. I said prior to the quote that it was from another forum, any idiot could copy and paste to Google and find me over there.

Are we all bullies here? How do you draw the conclusion that atheists are victims of school bullying? Step by step please. Logic counts.

That was a half joke, however I do think ridicule is the atheists favorite weapon and I do think ridicule is bullying. I have found the people here quite reasonable so far though.

When George and others in footy land wave the answer under your nose, you don't like it, and...

It had nothing to do with not liking it, the parallels he was drawing were not logical.

So, A pope or a hillsong CEO is not a bully when entire populations are taxed or made to suffer for their whims, yet one person saying you're ridiculous, or that your church should get the fuck out of gay marriage (BTW, that interference is possibly bullying, innit?), then that person is a bully?

Your Christian examples are far fetched. Bully; a blustering, quarrelsome, overbearing person who habitually badgers and intimidates smaller or weaker people. I don't generally see Christians doing this. I don't think the atheist examples you gave are bullying, that's your selective assumptions of what I might deem as bullying.

I personally react to evangelism, not quiet belief. Why are you here again, by the way? Is it personal gratification (big with you, I understand) or evangelism?

I have already said why I am here:

Thanks Mr Black. It's probably a fair question, I don't think it's impertinent. I suppose it's because I have an interest in people and why they do and think the things they do, so it makes sense to me to interact with opposites otherwise I won't learn much.

Not sure why you think it's personal gratification, I don't understand where you got that from.

and of course your magnificent strawman chucked at Nick85, who said no such thing...

Yeah I took his post out of context, as you can see here in my response if you kept reading. LINK (http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16773234&postcount=173)

Nick put it back in your stable so you could eat it later.

See the above link, I happily ate it later.

It's not an act of "atheist conspiracy" to ridicule you

I don't think it is an atheist conspiracy, I think it's a common trait.

the simpler answer is that you are high-visibility ridiculous, and people tend to point and shout it.

Why am I ridiculous again?

Of course, you are the same there as here, all Heb 13:8 and so forth, are you not?

No I actually cannot make sense of what you are saying or what your point is.

Sir Patrick Crocodile

30th January 2010, 07:44 PM

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 07:45 PM

Oh well, you can only try to be nice, not our fault people come with hidden agendas.

I don't have a hidden agenda.

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 07:49 PM

The only reason you would be ridiculed here is if you are doing something really stupid.
Like believing in God and going on about your "spiritual experience" while at the same time admitting that there is no evidence whatsoever to support any of your claims.

Okay well that's not the usual experience, usually the atheist has made up their mind that you're an illogical buffoon as soon as you say you're a believer and then proceeds to ridicule.

I don't have any evidence for you to support my claim, how can I? it is an experience. I am not silly enough to come on here and say "hey guess what, I have proof that God exists" and then go on to tell you about my experiences. It is evidence for me, because it happened to me, of course I cannot give you any proof.

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 07:54 PM

I had a glimmer of hope for a minute there but I still haven't learnt have I. Congratulations on pushing me further away :mad:

I am sorry, but I actually don't know what I've done. Someone found me on another forum that I wasn't hiding from anyway. You can come to my house and have a cup of tea if you want, I'm not hiding or doing some sort of covert operation.

two dogs

30th January 2010, 08:04 PM

I had a glimmer of hope for a minute there but I still haven't learnt have I.
...

I think I've learned that it's not worth attempting to debate people who are reality deficient; my responses are usually of the "piss taking" kind (even if it amuses nobody but myself), as expounded by my "sig" (Jefferson was referring to the concept of the Holy Trinity in that quote).

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 08:10 PM

Nope. Been a believer. I couldn't call you any sort of fool I couldn't have called myself.

You will be called to account for unsubstantiated statements and claims though.

I guess you will be interacting and learning. Don't expect any reinforcement of belief unless you want to make your own.

Yeah that's fair enough and I expect to be held to account.

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 08:12 PM

I think I've learned that it's not worth attempting to debate people who are a reality deficient; my responses are usually of the "piss taking" kind (even if it amuses nobody but myself), as expounded by my "sig" (Jefferson was referring to the concept of the Holy Trinity in that quote).

Okay well that's not the usual experience, usually the atheist has made up their mind that you're an illogical buffoon as soon as you say you're a believer and then proceeds to ridicule.

hmmm....

... but I guess I shouldn't tar everyone with the same brush should I.

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 08:24 PM

@ClayMonk: You're learning. We are different.

Never mistake common action in response to a stimulus for anything other than reaction to a common stimulus. This gathering is here for many reasons, whether social, political, economical, or for shits 'n' giggles.

We have no common code of conduct or creed. It would be a big mistake to even imagine our levels or styles of unbelief are identical.

What of an always-was-unbeliever and a clergyman who woke up and tossed it in? Would we make the same kind of atheist?

It might be wiser to regard us as individuals. (Now watch some smart bugger say "I'm not.")

Yeah I think I have learnt that today which is good, thanks for that.

Loki

30th January 2010, 08:26 PM

OK then, lets start again.

Atheists are not fragmented because they have no proposition and I don't think there is anything admiral about that. Atheists don't take the easy way out and invent something to ease our insecurities, xtians do. xtians however, can't agree on what form this invention should take, and so they splinter. Atheists are not fragmented because they take life as it is and do not try to add layers of meaning which are not there. I don't care if you think it's admirable or not, it's just the way we are (speaking for myself here, all disclaimers noted etc. etc.)

Okay well that's not the usual experience, usually the atheist has made up their mind that you're an illogical buffoon as soon as you say you're a believer and then proceeds to ridicule.Not how I do things, you are free to say anything you like, but we do like people to back up the things they say, things do get a bit silly when this request is avoided. That said, we are a bit jaded though, we've seen too many opinionated pricks not to be a little paranoid. Don't forget, you came here not visy versy.

Now where were, ah yes I was asking you to explain the basis of your belief as you were not being very specific, which I described as a "It just kind of is, like, you know" type of religion as you hadn't provided any specifics or evidence. As Dan asked, how did you know you were having an interaction with a supernatural being, did he leave his card, what is your evidence?

ClayMonk

30th January 2010, 08:46 PM

OK then, lets start again.

Okay

Atheists don't take the easy way out and invent something to ease our insecurities, xtians do. xtians however, can't agree on what form this invention should take, and so they splinter. Atheists are not fragmented because they take life as it is and do not try to add layers of meaning which are not there. I don't care if you think it's admirable or not, it's just the way we are (speaking for myself here, all disclaimers noted etc. etc.)

Okay, no problem.

Not how I do things, you are free to say anything you like, but we do like people to back up the things they say, things do get a bit silly when this request is avoided. That said, we are a bit jaded though, we've seen too many opinionated pricks not to be a little paranoid. Don't forget, you came here not visy versy.

I have not avoided any requests, you are asking me to back something up that I have consistently said I don't have any evidence for. My experiences are evidence that God exists to me, I am not offering any proof or trying to convince anyone it is true. You are looking for me to lay down a proposition so you can hack at it, but I don't have one. I can't even explain what happened properly, it is spiritual not scientific.

Now where were, ah yes I was asking you to explain the basis of your belief as you were not being very specific, which I described as a type of religion as you hadn't provided any specifics or evidence. As Dan asked, how did you know you were having an interaction with a supernatural being, did he leave his card, what is your evidence?

I do not have repeatable observations that I can test in the hope of achieving identical results so I can construct a hypothesis. God does not sit there and let you test Him. I don't have proof and i'm not trying to convince anyone, I had experiences that I can only describe as the Christian God.

I walked into a Christian church, a Christian prayed for me, Jesus spiritual shit happened, Jesus spiritual shit happened all night and Jesusspiritual shit has been happening ever since.

two dogs

30th January 2010, 09:07 PM

...
I walked into a Christian church, a Christian prayed for me, Jesus spiritual shit happened, Jesus spiritual shit happened all night and Jesusspiritual shit has been happening ever since.
And this Jesus spiritual shit makes you ashamed of having a wank? Didn't he supposedly have something to say about loving yourself? :)

It must be terrifying living in the fear of Jesus, and his Father, and the Holy Ghost (all one of them), and all the angels, and all the saints, and everybody who has ever died, watching everything you do?

Iridescence

30th January 2010, 09:50 PM

Yes when I encountered God I had all sorts of sensations and emotions. I'm not sure what else could of happened. Should have I stood there like a statue blocking out the sensations, trying to use my rational mind to logically understand something spiritual?

They were not negative sensations or emotions, i'd love to have them on tap.

I can't believe no one picked up on this! Yes Claymonk, yes. Had you approached that experience with a rational mind, you would have had a different outcome.

There is a logical, possibly chemical, possibly physiological, possibly psychological explanation for what you felt when that man had his hands on you that day. I sincerely doubt it was any god. There is a good clip on youtube that explains this, but damned if I can find it. (I thought it was Thunderfoot.. anyone know the one I mean?)

You seem like an intelligent and sincere sort. The question I would be asking myself in your shoes is "why did my rational mind abandon me that day and lead me down the path of supernatural belief?"

Events, feelings, sensations occur throughout life. I felt chills and strong emotions when I watched the end of the Two Towers. Does that mean I had a supernatural experience? Or were my neurons and nerve system simply reacting to emotional stimuli? I had a 'spiritual experience" (chills, electricity, goosebumps, tears and my life COMPLETELY changed that day) the first time I laid eyes on my future husband. Doesn't make him an agent of god, or me a born again. It was simply my body/brain chemistry of falling in love :)

I had a spiritual awakening of sorts in my early 20's when I found the 'religion" of paganism. I felt strongly that this was my path in life for a number of years, did the rituals, read everything I could find about it, collected crystals, had my aura and tarot cards read. I think I still have a set of tarot cards, and I still collect crystals because I like them as a reminder, not because I ascribe any meaning to them.

But I came to the realisation one day that if I couldn't believe in a christian god, then I couldn't believe in Allah, Diana the Huntress, Zeus, Athena, Santa, unicorns, fairies (which was the only one I was really sad about) and finally declared myself atheist. As far as I am concerned, if you rule out believing in one god, you rule out them all.

I guess what I am saying is YOU wanted to have a "spiritual experience" that day whether conscious or subconscious, so you ascribed that meaning to the events and sensations/emotions you had. You said in your story that you "felt something spiritual going on" (confirmed in your mind by the priest saying something spiritual was going on (which came first??), which is exactly the same as a fortune teller saying you will meet someone tall, dark and handsome) and so I feel that your brain started thinking along those lines and put you in a highly suggestible state of mind. It doesn't mean there is a god, or that he is worthy of worship, faith or praise.

Not having a go at you or anything, just trying to get my head around it.

*wanted to add - you can get the same crowd energy (something spiritual?) as in a church by going to a really great concert with an audience who is totally into it, or seeing a brilliant movie in the cinema on opening night with a cinema full of like-minded enthusiastic people. Groups of people can generate an energy all their own. It's what your mind ascribes to the feelings that make it what it is.

Dan Gleibitz

31st January 2010, 06:40 AM

It's the former... Okay, we're on roughly the same page then--speaking the same language at least!
if you rocked up at a church and that happened what would you conclude? I'd love to know because i'm not trying to conclude that it was God by ignorance to any other explaination. It's just that I have not heard any other credible explaination.
I've had deeply moving personal experiences--as I said--both inside churches and outside. I just don't see how the jump is made from being deeply moved to "presence of god".

I have no reason to doubt that the human brain is capable of providing these experiences without forcing by a supernatural being. The most obvious evidence that a mechanical/biological phenomenon can cause deeply moving experiences is the well known, well studied and well demonstrated effects of psychotropics.

Less obvious is deeply moving experiences which do not rely on external chemical stimulation; stemming perhaps from hearing a piece of music*, perhaps from chanting*/meditation*/crowds* if that's your thing, from observing a marvel of architecture* or nature, or even simply watching a movie. Life-changing events such as the birth of a child or the death of a loved friend, relative or that same child are examples that require no deliberate effort.

* It's perhaps no accident that these elements are so important to so many religious institutions.

Further down the list we get to chemical or neurological abnormalities/imbalances that are not externally stimulated. People with such can experience altered perception and moods, even hear voices or visual hallucinations. Sometimes these can be cured medically, which I reckon shows pretty clearly that they have a biological rather than divine origin, even if they are the most deeply moving of all experiences.

Then there's psychological damage or disturbance, which is difficult and beyond my scope. But let me outline a (simplified and possibly ignorant) scenario:
[1] A young boy, whose brain is still in development, is indoctrinated to believe that a sky fairy is watching his every move. That he is sinful and must constantly pray for forgiveness. That he must have his head splashed with water and make promises to the sky fairy. That he must literally (through transubstantiation) eat the flesh and drink the blood of the sky fairy. That thinking or saying the wrong thing will damn him to burn in the fires of hell forever... and all the rest of it.

[2] As a typical teenager subject to peer scrutiny/pressure, rebelling from his parents as is natural he sets aside the beliefs that stemmed from this early indoctrination.

[3] As a young adult, he is coerced (perhaps led by his raging desire for sex) into a situation where there is group pressure to re-establish his earlier beliefs, in a place where there is (as above) music, chanting, meditation, crowds and perhaps a marvel of architecture. Conducive to deeply moving experiences, in other words.

In this scenario, it wouldn't strike me as odd if the person first experienced feelings of discomfort, perhaps stemming from cognitive dissonance. It wouldn't strike me as odd if there was a sense of belonging, or potential belonging, even a desire to return to the certainties of childhood, a time which perhaps seemed much happier than recent troubled times. It wouldn't surprise me that when asked to come forward and re-connect with his god that this person would be inclined to do so, nor that consequently he would experience a feeling of deep relief, much emotion (tears and all), and subsequently, great calm.

It wouldn't surprise me that all this could occur without needing a supernatural explanation. Nor would it surprise me that the person in question would explain his experience in terms of a supernatural experience.

That's a scenario, not an attempt at personal diagnosis nor a dismissal of what you claim to have experienced. Obviously, I have my suspicions but I'm (barely) humble enough to tolerate your holding a different explanation.

Something I'd ask you to think about is the deeply troubling time many children indoctrinated into recognised religions and other cults have when they finally manage to break ties with their cult and dismiss their formerly dearly-held beliefs. Some spend years or lifetimes in/on psychological or chemical therapy. Is it perhaps possible that the causes are the same?

I'd also beg you to please not subject further children to the evils of childhood religious indoctrination.

Dan Gleibitz

31st January 2010, 06:45 AM

*wanted to add - you can get the same crowd energy (something spiritual?) as in a church by going to a really great concert with an audience who is totally into it, or seeing a brilliant movie in the cinema on opening night with a cinema full of like-minded enthusiastic people. Groups of people can generate an energy all their own. It's what your mind ascribes to the feelings that make it what it is.
I wholly agree. I should have read the whole thread before poaching some of your thoughts in my post above. :)

Logic

31st January 2010, 07:20 AM

I can't believe no one picked up on this! Yes Claymonk, yes. Had you approached that experience with a rational mind, you would have had a different outcome.

There is a logical, possibly chemical, possibly physiological, possibly psychological explanation for what you felt when that man had his hands on you that day. I sincerely doubt it was any god.

I agree. Pre-programming towards religious belief impairs ones ability to be introspective it would seem.

ClayMonk

31st January 2010, 07:39 AM

Thanks for your posts. I'm in church on my iPhone, what I'll do is see what happens (not that it needs to happen in church but the opportunity is here) and post a report for you. I will also respond to your posts, I'm not sure if it will be today as I spent a large chunk of my day yesterday on the computer and I am the CEO as well as doing my own job for the next three weeks plus i have an assignment due so I'm not sure when I'll get back on but I'll try.

Fearless

31st January 2010, 09:43 AM

Fassinated

Iridescence

31st January 2010, 10:23 AM

To be fair, he typed the last one on an iPhone, which aren't as easy to use as a regular keyboard :)

Sir Patrick Crocodile

31st January 2010, 10:31 AM

And he did that while he was in a church service. Oh the pressures of abandoning technology to time-warp 500 years into the past!

DistroMan

31st January 2010, 10:41 AM

One can be quite erudite, grammatically correct and vociferous on an iPhone as on a stone tablet or modern computer. No special skills are required.

Edit: ^^^^ All that on an iPhone, this on my computer. I've done whole blog entries on my iPhone when away from home and the urge hit me. :)

Iridescence

31st January 2010, 11:46 AM

maybe I have fat fingertips then but I can't type on an iPhone for the life of me! Bring on iPad I say :P

And now... back to the topic at hand!

Dan Gleibitz

31st January 2010, 01:36 PM

maybe I have fat fingertips then but I can't type on an iPhone for the life of me! Bring on iPad I say :P +1

And now... back to the topic at hand! Okay... farking long church service, eh?

davo

31st January 2010, 02:00 PM

I think people are trying to argue against the very definition of close minded here.

Is there anything that has happened to you claymonk, that could not possibly happen to an atheist, and have another explanation?

You wil probably say yes, and this is where we differ. I could quite readily have an 'experience' and keep myself open minded as to what caused it, where you have led yourself on a path of attributing it to the supernatural.

Your experiences have led you to one conclusion because of this close mindedness, and because we cannot get to grips or have access too the whole myriad of situational material that has led you to this decision, means effectively people are just banging their head against the wall.

I suggest the great (and so often posted) video on the subject Claymonk, as to why I think you are close-minded, especially around 2:30+ as this is the position you put people in trying to respond to your claims. All you are doing is projecting your close mindedness, and standing bolstered by that as no one has the information needed to refute it.

The very definition of close minded.

T69TOuqaqXI

Cosmic Teapot

31st January 2010, 02:45 PM

Your Christian examples are far fetched. Bully; a blustering, quarrelsome, overbearing person who habitually badgers and intimidates smaller or weaker people. I don't generally see Christians doing this.

The whole notion of sin, divine retribution and hell is the pinnacle of bully tactics. If a christian says something we believe is ridiculous, we might throw some sarcasm their way.
If an atheist says they don't believe in god or jesus, the christians are likely to tell them that they'll burn for eternity in a pit of fire. We fequently see christians claim that atheists are morally inferior and try to associate atheism with mass murder and genocide.
If you don't believe christians are the biggest bullies of all, that's just because you're not looking hard enough and your ignorance makes an arguement not.

3mcOIyf9TOQ

davo

31st January 2010, 02:56 PM

I have to agree with Cosmic Teapot, who put it well.

It reminds me of Greta Christina's recent post 'How atheists can't win' :

http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2010/01/how-atheists-cant-win.html?cid=6a00d8341bf68b53ef01287717f127970c

This is the type of bullying I see and have to deal with a lot on and off the web. Just the total degrading approach christians as a whole have for those that do not believe what they do.

When we look at how the law and society reflect on social decisions, the christians just refuse to accept that their views are directly pushed and used to intimidate others, it's something I see and have to deal with every day in our Australian 'secular' society. This in itself is bullying, and just the flat out denial that a system of belief has such a major infuence on others is just another example of the problem.

Iridescence

31st January 2010, 03:26 PM

Davo! That's the video I was thinking of, thank you :D

I have one more question for you ClayMonk and forgive me if you have already answered it. I read in your story that you rejected your indoctrination when you were in your teens, you hated christians and christianity, but did you at any point make a conscious decision to no longer believe in a god? And if not, do you think this influenced how your brain reacted to your "spiritual awakening"? I know if I was in that situation, believing as I do that there is no such thing as god, those feelings would make me walk away feeling slightly creeped out and invaded, but my rational mind would still struggle with the supernatural god element and I probably would not become a born-again.

Cosmic Teapot

31st January 2010, 04:10 PM

It reminds me of Greta Christina's recent post 'How atheists can't win' :

http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2010/01/how-atheists-cant-win.html?cid=6a00d8341bf68b53ef01287717f127970c

Excuse me while I absorb her entire blog.
Excellent find!
Ta.
See you all in about 3 weeks.

wolty

31st January 2010, 04:30 PM

OK I have read and now have some questions for Claymonk.

1. How does your born-again status affect how you relate or "feel" about other non born-again people? Ie. what do you think of them: misguided, silly, stupid, illinformed?

2. Do you feel special that god has only visited you and not billions of others?

3. So far you have said atheists are as boring as a bus ride if they are not ridiculing theists, and we have splintered into subgroups (not true). What else do you "feel" about us? Are there other misconceptions that you have that you would like to share?

4. How does it make you feel that atheists are going to hell?

5. Are you still going to heaven, no matter what you do, as long as you ask for forgivness?

6. How would your life change if you became atheist?

7. God (we still haven't worked out which one) visited you. Why do you think he doesn't visit unbelievers to set them straight. Or maybe the 70% of the rest of the world that are not christians.

8. Is your god vengeful?

That may do for starters.

Oh and I like manners so please.

wearestardust

31st January 2010, 05:21 PM

Back again. I have only intermittent access to a computer while building a house and, apropos the comments of others, I generally prefer not to make a fool of myself on the crackberry.

How were you born-again,

Accepted Jesus as my personal lord and saviour, baptised in the holy spirit, prayed in tongues, slain in the spirit - the whole 9 yards.

Of course, I was already a believer, and was baptised, so the preceding para is extremely dodgy against any reputable theology.

what happened?

Short version: christians happened. After many years I concluded that there must be something fishy given the huge gap between how christians ought behave, powered by the holy spirit and as promised by the bible, and how they do behave. St Paul tells us how to distinguish between people who have the spirit and those who don't. The christians clearly and mostly fell into the 'don't' category and the people who I know in the non-theist world mostly fell into the 'do' (there were of course odd exceptions on both sides).

That was the start of my path to atheism - another five years of thinking and shedding guilt and hurt, and discovering that the non-theist world is much more marvelous than the theist one. So much for spiritual experiences, joy, happiness in jesus, etc. I'm much happier, much less bedevilled, now.

As an aside: an anecdote. The first time I ever allowed myself the time to listen to a piece of good classical music from go to whoa on a decent sound system, I found myself having pretty much exactly the same 'spiritual' experience, physically and emotionally, as in church. In fact, it was better. That's what we mean about reliability of experience.

It was either Beethoven's 9th symphony or Mozart/Sussmayr's requiem. I forget which.

You try responding to five posts at a time.:rolleyes:

wearestardust

31st January 2010, 05:34 PM

There is no evidence for the existance for God,

I am pretty sure that you don't actually mean this - that there are no reasons for you, me, or anyone, to think that god exists. That would make you a kind of atheist btw. I suspect what you really mean is that faith has to be judged against a special kind of evidence that is not suitable for measurement by the sorts of tools that we use to judge, well, pretty much any other claim to supposed fact. For example, the claim "the Egyptian 1st dynasty arose during the neolithic age" is testable against a range of kinds of physical confirmatory facts; but "jesus is present whenever two or more gather in his name" is a different kind of fact which we are supposed to simply believe on the basis of feelings that can equally well be explained and/or generated by a variety of stimuli.

And indeed my thought seems to be confirmed:

my experience is not evidence to you and I don't claim it to be.

Quite. So I take it that you won't be expecting any kind of christian basis to society, or laws or social restrictions based on purely christian principles. Thanks. I appreciate that. I'd appreciate it even more if you could go and convince all the priests, pastors, bishops (and one cardinal), and a few politicians, who want to bring Australia under christian rules.

ClayMonk

31st January 2010, 06:22 PM

Thank you wearestardust that was very informative.

I do apologise that I didn't post this earlier but I needed to spend the day with my family and my son is now in bed so I thought I should post as not to be rude.

I would like to respond to all of the posts but I seriously do not have time so I can only respond to a general consensus which I think is; that I am refusing to accept any other explanation for the experiences I have had other than "God did it".

I am absolutely willing to accept any other explanation providing that it does a better job at explaining it. The best explanation that has been offered so far is Neuro-linguistic programming. I am not in denial that a similar experience cannot be reproduced, I am sure it can but to me it is not the best explanation. However to an atheist the pick of a bad bunch providing it's anything other than God is the best explanation. If I showed you those videos of Neuro-linguistic programming and you had no presuppositions you would think it was a load of shit. The only reason I think you believe it is so you can say "ah ha, see those experiences are not god because they can be reproduced!". It's not even scientifically based which is what you supposedly live by.

Another explanation is that my brother (who was also a druggie) slipped ecstasy in my drink before I went and I have been having flashbacks ever since. But this does not do the best job of explaining to me either. I am also really shocked that no one has asked "was I on drugs at the time?!". For the record I wasn't but I'm surprised it hasn't been asked, instead it's unscientific Neuro-linguistic programming and music goose bumps and sensations.

It is also not as simplistic as the experiences. Yes those experiences happened when I became born-again and they are evidence to me. However there is a lot more to it than that, and there is a lot more to the experiences than what I have articulated, however I don't have the time or the inclination to articulate it further.

I really don't mean any offense by that but I am a busy person and only signed up for some casual conversation. I spent half the day on the computer yesterday and wrote 42 posts just on a brief explanation of my experiences. If I articulated fully why I believe in the Christian God I would have to fully articulate the experiences plus go into the Abrahamic God, the cause of the universe, objective morality, the historical person of Jesus Christ and the ressurection of Jesus Christ.

What for? I cannot prove God's existence to you, i'm really not sure what could prove God's existence to you. He cannot use your five senses to show His existence, He cannot walk the earth as a man, so what does He need to do? it wouldn't matter what He did because you would explain it away with rationality. In other words in your world it seems He cannot exist, it's impossible.

I do apologise that I can't respond to everyone or keep this going at the rate it is but I am more interested in business than philosophy, so if I want to end up at McKinsey I cannot devote heaps of time to the discourse.

ClayMonk

31st January 2010, 07:10 PM

I would like to answer these questions regarding atheists though. I think they should be answered considering I am in "your" world and I did come on here to learn about you. Please do not take offense, if you don't think it's right then enlighten me.

So far you have said atheists are as boring as a bus ride if they are not ridiculing theists, and we have splintered into subgroups (not true). What else do you "feel" about us? Are there other misconceptions that you have that you would like to share?

Well, I don't know if they are misconceptions until I throw them out there, hear the responses, evaluate and then conclude. Neither can you conclude if they are misconceptions prior to me putting them out there, and hopefully evaluate them to make a conclusion without merely getting defensive.

I do apologise but I have never seen or met an atheist in real (can't really make that judgement for people on here) that wasn't as boring as a bus ride unless they ridicule. I would love some examples to change my mind. I think a far greater percentage of active atheists per capita are intellectually prideful. That is to say that they think they are intellectually superior than others, hence the bullying.

How does it make you feel that atheists are going to hell?

I don't know what hell is or that atheists are going there but having said that even if I knew atheists were going to hell and I knew what hell was, I don't think I could do anything about it. Nothing will change your mind.

How would your life change if you became atheist?

I think I would not be as good a husband and father as I think God helps me not to be as self-centred as i would be otherwise. I also think my life, particularly my occupation would be harder if I didn't ask for His strength at times.

Sir Patrick Crocodile

31st January 2010, 08:59 PM

I don't know what hell is or that atheists are going there but having said that even if I knew atheists were going to hell and I knew what hell was, I don't think I could do anything about it. Nothing will change your mind.And you call yourself a Christian even though you do not know what the hell this place called hell is?I think I would not be as good a husband and father as I think God helps me not to be as self-centred as i would be otherwise. I also think my life, particularly my occupation would be harder if I didn't ask for His strength at times.I'm sure many of us who do NOT support rape/child abuse/etc are not self-centered although we do not believe in a god and there is a pretty good chance no god is helping them at all.

Iridescence

31st January 2010, 09:08 PM

I am sorry you haven't met an interesting atheist. I am surrounded by them. The thing is, because their brains aren't absorbed by god, they have MUCH more mindspace to form philosophies, pursue hobbies, gain and store useless and random trivia, engage their wits (my brother in law is one of the smartest, funniest, wittiest and most interesting people you will never meet because you have misconceptions about atheists). The religious types are the ones pre-occupied with god all day every day, not us. However, atheists, like everyone else, have a tendancy to ridicule that which they find ridiculous. Go have a listen to Kent Hovind or Ray Comfort or any Fox News presentation someday for the perfect example of bullying from the other camp.

The one thing my interesting group of friends all have in common is no belief in god. It just never comes up. Personally, I wouldn't stay friends with someone very long if all they wanted to talk about was their faith, I find that mind-numbingly boring, shallow, insincere and vacuous.

I would like to add that I think YOU help you be not self-centered, not god. YOU are the one married to your wife, not god. YOU owe it to her to be honest with yourself, and to give yourself credit for being a good husband and father, not god. god gets too much credit for the good shit, and not enough blame for the bad shit in my opinion.

Sir Patrick Crocodile

31st January 2010, 09:09 PM

And I am surrounded by theists who are as boring as a bus ride. :p

Fearless

1st February 2010, 12:36 AM

I do apologise but I have never seen or met an atheist in real (can't really make that judgement for people on here) that wasn't as boring as a bus ride unless they ridicule. I would love some examples to change my mind. I think a far greater percentage of active atheists per capita are intellectually prideful. That is to say that they think they are intellectually superior than others, hence the bullying.

Just as a starting point why not watch some of Christopher Hitchens on You Tube (a few videos below). He even has his own channel with plenty of content. He debates many religious folk... if anything it is he who gets ridiculed and belittled. Why? I think because people feel intimidated by his intelligence and knowledge. He can give as much as he gets dished out though and can easily handle himself. I can only imagine just how frustrated he must get when half the people he debates with are intellectually and logically too stubborn to stay on the level with him before they resort to decoy tactics, contemptuous crossfire and poor form circular babble.

In other words: LA LA LA... NOT LISTENING!
http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/7397/plugears.jpg (http://img709.imageshack.us/i/plugears.jpg/)

Don't forget you are in fact part of the majority and might just find we cop our dose of bigotry and bullying, possibly even more than you could or might care to imagine. In case you weren't aware we are affected by religion every day and religious constraints, but can barely find a unified voice that represents us in politics and public life. I can't say the same the other way around.

Problem is, if we stand united in any form, we are then accused by many religious of being no different to an organised institution like a religion, yes, i'll admit even sometimes by Atheists and other non religious. The thought of unified movement is too confronting to some.

You might find if you stay long enough that most theists who come here to visit have nothing but contempt towards us. They have hidden agendas and more often than not come to stir, or push their point regardless of the outcome or who it affects. They don't give a stuff about how they treat us half the time or how we feel about their input.

Most forget this is an Atheist forum and like I saw asked recently and it is a 110% relevant question 'What did you expect from an Atheist forum?' when they feel challenged by the level of questioning and expectation. At the end of the day we know you will not have a life changing moment and 'break on through to the other side' as much as you must know you are not going to convince any of us of your god's existence.

Is there middle ground? I'm not sure to be honest. My tolerances are sadly wearing but I hold on to some hopes.

Sorry if I seem defensive but please understand you are one of many to pass our way who tend to slip down similar and predictable paths. It is up to you where you go from here... either try to learn a bit more about us (you seem to be making more of an effort than average) or don't I guess, but just remember that although Fantasy Island might be a little bit intimidating, seldom few religious forums would even let any of us speak our mind before being bottled and booted... not that I have any real personal interest in joining a religious forum but I know it happens.

Anyway here's a few vids I found randomly:

An example of Hitchens and a contemptuous prattler (ok, this wasn't so random)
U0iA6CN449s

Part one of a 7 part collection of a recent episode of Q&A
kulwG7_MSXw

And a random classic example video (i just found) about typical victim mentality, and a message of doom and gloom of the rising level of Atheists who are seemingly corrupting society from one of our favorites: Kirk Cameron.

GN9zpf5cT0M

Have a good think about what Ray 'banana man' Comfort and his puppet (Kirk) are doing with this blatant disrespect of Darwin's works. If these are the tactics they are resorting to saying things like "This is a life and death issue" then I have grave concerns for the 'evolution' of religion in this world.

What is the big issue about death though? If their gods' master plan is for the end to come sooner than later why fight it? To 'save' as many as possible before it happens? Cmon! who is fooling who?

I am digressing a bit but I am only scratching at the surface of what we as Atheists are putting up with. Dare we try to add a fifty page intro to the bible... see how well that would be received! Actually there is a related link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmHN3JtyUXg&feature=related) saying the same thing.

Dan Gleibitz

1st February 2010, 06:11 AM

I am absolutely willing to accept any other explanation providing that it does a better job at explaining it. The best explanation that has been offered so far is Neuro-linguistic programming. I am not in denial that a similar experience cannot be reproduced, I am sure it can but to me it is not the best explanation. However to an atheist the pick of a bad bunch providing it's anything other than God is the best explanation. If I showed you those videos of Neuro-linguistic programming and you had no presuppositions you would think it was a load of shit. The only reason I think you believe it is so you can say "ah ha, see those experiences are not god because they can be reproduced!". It's not even scientifically based which is what you supposedly live by.

I don't think that's it, quite.

First, there's the issue of explanation. Your answer "goddidit" is, to paraphrase some clever dude, not an explanation. It is at best an answer which in itself raises more questions than it answers. An answer for which there is no evidence that could be described as credible to anybody but yourself*. Almost any conceivable alternative is more likely to be the correct one because yours requires us to re-evaluate the very foundation of things we know about the world - the basic physics within which we (appeared to until your 'explanation') operate.

Yours is an extraordinary claim, and extraordinary claims need to be supported by extraordinary evidence. Not feelings and emotions.

* Personal experience may be a valid reason for a personal belief. But your personal experience can never be a valid reason for somebody else to believe you. I am quite willing to believe that you had a profound emotional experience. But I see absolutely no reason why I should believe that the cause of your experience was meeting with a supernatural being.

Personal experience is not always a valid reason for personal belief. Take for example a person who truly believes they have been abducted by aliens but has no physical evidence of abduction. A claim that as an outside observer I find no less believable than yours. If this person came to an internet forum where people who didn't believe in aliens gathered, sure, they would be inclined to offer alternative explanations.

But these alternative explanations - despite being made on a non-alien-believer forum, are more likely to be correct than the extraordinary claim. The 'abductee' might well write a post:
I do not deny that you have provided a valid explanation of my experience that does not require alien beings, but to me it is not the best explanation. However to a non-abductee the pick of a bad bunch providing it's anything other than Aliens is the best explanation.
;)

If non-believers provide a rational explanation that requires no supernatural/alien being and the believer provides an irrational explanation that requires a supernatural/alien being, is the believer really in a position to claim that the non-believers are exhibiting bias?

ClayMonk

1st February 2010, 10:10 AM

And you call yourself a Christian even though you do not know what the hell this place called hell is?

Does anyone? I don't think it's overly clear to anyone what it is.

I'm sure many of us who do NOT support rape/child abuse/etc are not self-centered although we do not believe in a god and there is a pretty good chance no god is helping them at all.

It was not comparative, I didn't say I was a better husband and father than your general atheist. I said I think I would not be as good a husband and father if I was atheist, it's an assessment of myself not a judgment of others.

And I am surrounded by theists who are as boring as a bus ride.

Again it's not comparative. I answered a question in relation to atheists.

BTW, I am boring and I think that's because I am business person which requires a lot of intellect and thought. Generally i'm solving complex problems, in meetings or in deep thought about our direction. I generally do not run around talking to people and having fun. I do loosen up a bit on weekends provided I am not studying, so at times I can be fun but in a general sense i'm not. I am passionate about what I do but I face the facts... i'm generally boring.

Sir Patrick Crocodile

1st February 2010, 10:26 AM

Does anyone? I don't think it's overly clear to anyone what it is.Do you know what the difference between Heaven and Hell is then? I am currently under suspicion you do not even know your own religion. You seem to know nothing about what you believe in other than the fact that you probably sortofish believe in it maybe perhaps.
It was not comparative, I didn't say I was a better husband and father than your general atheist. I said I think I would not be as good a husband and father if I was atheist, it's an assessment of myself not a judgment of others.You missed the point completely. I was trying to say that you cannot simply label us as being "inferior in terms of niceness" just because we are atheist. Many atheists I have come across this forum seem to be ten times nicer than any theist is. I have met one atheist who is nicer than many other theists. I have been bullied by theists my whole life. And I'll admit it is not nearly as bad as what is going on in the world.

By saying that you'd not be as good a husband or father if you were atheist is like saying you would not be very manly if you own a Ford as opposed to a Holden for example. Your "manliness" doesn't change, but your perception in "manliness" changes.

ClayMonk

1st February 2010, 10:30 AM

@Fearless: I think I need to drop the bullying and ridicule label, after browsing around the forum you guys cop a lot of shit, mostly from people around you in real life such as your own and extended family.

I think I actually understand how you guy's must feel but correct me if wrong; You don't go out of your way to pick on non-theists (if you do then this is void), they come to you and try to tell you why God is the way, you intellectually challenge them, they get angry, you get sick of it so you stir them up and give a bit a ridicule. So I see the end part and think it's bullying, which it probably is but I can sort of understand why it's done.

I have seen Hitchens before, I think he is an intelligent man and has an absolutely beautiful grasp of the english language. I am not sure how well his arguments are articulated though because he came against a philosopher not long ago and he absolutely got his pants pulled down. I think he is successful because of his speaking style not because his arguments are water tight. You're right though, he's far from boring.

Sir Patrick Crocodile

1st February 2010, 10:32 AM

And the funny thing is, that when we say anything against a typical theist's views, they will act as if they have been persecuted and that they deserve special treatment. Unfortunately it works spectacularly in the political field.

DavidB

1st February 2010, 11:40 AM

ClayMonk

1st February 2010, 12:07 PM

I don't think that's it, quite.

First, there's the issue of explanation. Your answer "goddidit" is, to paraphrase some clever dude, not an explanation. It is at best an answer which in itself raises more questions than it answers. An answer for which there is no evidence that could be described as credible to anybody but yourself*.

* Personal experience may be a valid reason for a personal belief. But your personal experience can never be a valid reason for somebody else to believe you. I am quite willing to believe that you had a profound emotional experience. But I see absolutely no reason why I should believe that the cause of your experience was meeting with a supernatural being.

I wish people would read the whole forum before posting so I am not continually repeating myself. I am not here to convince anyone that my experiences were the Christian God, I don't really care if you believe it.

Almost any conceivable alternative is more likely to be the correct one because yours requires us to re-evaluate the very foundation of things we know about the world - the basic physics within which we (appeared to until your 'explanation') operate.

Almost any conceivable alternative is more likely to be the correct to you, I think you would rather believe I we were all in the Matrix than believe that God changed my life. God is an impossible concept in your position, so even if He was true He couldn't possibly exist to you. If He were to exists, how would you like Him to present himself to you?

Yours is an extraordinary claim, and extraordinary claims need to be supported by extraordinary evidence. Not feelings and emotions.

Why should something extraordinary not have feelings or emotions, the birth of my child did, why should my spiritual rebirth not?

Personal experience is not always a valid reason for personal belief. Take for example a person who truly believes they have been abducted by aliens but has no physical evidence of abduction. A claim that as an outside observer I find no less believable than yours. If this person came to an internet forum where people who didn't believe in aliens gathered, sure, they would be inclined to offer alternative explanations.

There are major differences between the concept of being born-again and the concept of alien visitation. Regardless why do I care if they had an experience where they felt they were abducted, maybe they did, who am I to say.

ClayMonk

1st February 2010, 12:21 PM

Consider the possibility that this "god-state" is merely you practicing some introspection and recalling a feeling (as shown earlier in one of those Derren Brown videos).

Yeah when I do think about Jesus I get a feeling, however I love Him so why would it be unusual. I also can't quite grasp the concept that atheists would like me to be like a statue and block out God if is doing something, yes I could do that and if I kept doing it over and over then I guess he would leave my life. The question is why would I want Him to? and regardless it does nothing to explain or prove a number of things that have happened to me and still do. It just leaves me with the option of; was God real and I purposely blocked Him out or was He fake and I have come out of a delusion?

I gather drugs were involved in your conversion experience. I know first-hand that this can lead to sustaining the delusion on one's own behalf. The really bad thing is that the energy has to come from somewhere: are you using yourself up feeding the "god" feeling? (Certainly the breakouts into pr0n and otherwise, may be your subconscious trying to bring back equilibrium.)

You may have misunderstood me, drugs were not involved in the spiritual rebirth. I just threw that out there because I was surprised it had not came up. It didn't feel like I was on E's or any other drug I have tried for that matter.

I don't use myself up because I don't need to keep feeding the "God feeling", I have an overall sense that He is with me. Goose bumps during worship isn't God.

But what I wanted to really ask... If you ran the entire scenario from conversion to now, without a god, and replaced the god with "you being confused by Eckies and thinking you'd found god", would everything still be possible?

Nah it wouldn't that's why it's not a better explanation.

ClayMonk

1st February 2010, 12:25 PM

Wow!... I'd like to see that. Can you provide a link?

I couldn't find the full debate, just bits of question time but here is a review of the debate.

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com (http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2009/04/william-lane-craig-won-by-landslide.html)

ClayMonk

1st February 2010, 12:28 PM

Poster claymonk appears to be playing this atheist forum like a well oiled fiddle. He is not here to consider that atheism is correct. He is here to show atheists that religion is correct.

Ignore him and he will go away!;)

I'm not playing anything, I just said a welcome and it led into this. I can't show you religion (I hate that word anyway) is correct, like I have said many times I think that is impossible.

Dan Gleibitz

1st February 2010, 12:39 PM

Why should something extraordinary not have feelings or emotions, the birth of my child did, why should my spiritual rebirth not?

I presume there was more to the evidence of your child being born than just feelings and emotions? ;)

Almost any conceivable alternative is more likely to be the correct to you, I think you would rather believe I we were all in the Matrix than believe that God... It's not a matter of preference, it's a matter of rational thinking.

I wish people would read the whole forum before posting so I am not continually repeating myself. I am not here to convince anyone that my experiences were the Christian God, I don't really care if you believe it. And I never suggested you did or were.

There are major differences between the concept of being born-again and the concept of alien visitation. How are they different? Both claims beg the existence of beings for which we have no evidence, and both claims lack the ability to be verified externally.

Regardless why do I care if they had an experience where they felt they were abducted, maybe they did, who am I to say. See, there's another way in which we are different. I care very much to understand the world in which I live. It does matter to me whether such an extraordinary claim is true/untrue. And so I would ask them questions at least until I could establish whether there was any reason for me to consider their claim valid.

Much as I have done for your claim. :)

ClayMonk

1st February 2010, 12:40 PM

@DavidB: on the contrary, I would say that Clay here is stuck between two worlds. He does not like the other members of his church, it appears, and he also would sooner write AFA posts in church than hear the word of his god preached.

I like everyone, I like the people in my church as much as I like you.

Hehe I went to the dunny before it started and yeah I didn't really want to be there Sunday, I was pretty tired.

He does not seem curious to become more acquainted with the nature of his god by reading his bible or attending group studies. He is either the last christian on earth, or not a proper one: merely somebody recapturing a feeling attained while influenced by some E's in his drink, at a church do.

I love the Bible, it gives me life when I read it. I don't about all the bad shit in it or if it's inerrant, all I know is I get "something special" from reading it. I'm not trying to convince anyone of that either so don't give me the whole emotional evidence spiel again.

E's at a church do, that's probably not a bad idea :).

From a position like that, he is uniquely unqualified to convince anybody of anything about christianity: I put it to you that he may be seeking his way, either out of the confusion or further in, as his position is untenable.

I don't want to convince anyone. I don't see why my position is untenable, why can we not enjoy a conversation despite having differences of opinion. It's almost as if I need to fit in one of three categories; 1) Be a Christian with a mission, 2) try and accept that there is no God, or 3) F%#$ off.

GenericBox

1st February 2010, 12:58 PM

We cannot enjoy a conversation because it is like trying to talk to a child about the fairies they play with in the garden.

"There are fairies in the Garden!"
"Okay sure sure, that's nice."
"There is I saw them!"
"Of course you did."
"You're a big meanie you don't believe me, I'll show you!"
"I'm not being mean, now go along and play"
"You're just a stupid head because you don't see the fairies!"
"Alright that's enough of that nonsense, show me these fairies."
"Well only I can see them."
"Riiiight."

No conversation can be had because your position relies on the argument (however much you are not saying there is an argument - the existence, and foundation - of your belief IS IN ARGUMENT) that God/Supernatural exists.

And you have no evidence for this. You are literally saying you believe in something without any proof whatsoever - just because you "hide" behind the title of a religion, does not change the fact that this is literally CRAZY.

In English (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/wiki/English_language), the word "sane" derives from the Latin (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/wiki/Latin) adjective sanus meaning "healthy".

...

Insanity can be considered as poor health of the mind, not necessarily of the brain as an organ (although that can affect mental health), but rather refers to defective function of mental processes such as reasoning.

Religious people have defective reasoning - as has been pointed out by every other poster here.

It is not logical, nor rational - to believe in the supernatural. And unlike what you seem to say that these don't matter - or you don't care - IT DOES MATTER. Without a logical or rational basis for decision, there is no method for testing said decision. And if you can't test it - you never ask about it.

You want to know why we can't have a conversation - go and volunteer at your local mental assylum, and then you might "understand the opposition", from our(my) perspective, as you said you were looking for in your OP.

Furthermore, for you then to come here and pollute this forum with your insanity, it is then insulting to suggest you have been mistreated or deserve more credence/respect for your ideas just because you are not trying to convince anyone.

But alas, continue with the logical fallacies - continue to fail to see the error of your judgement and the obvious damage in your reasoning processes, play the "why are you so mean" card, despite your ignorance and insulting behaviour (which again you will fail to see), and continue to prove your total lack of rationality over the next ... say 100 posts I'll wager.

Dan Gleibitz

1st February 2010, 12:59 PM

It's almost as if I need to fit in one of three categories; 1) Be a Christian with a mission, 2) try and accept that there is no God, or 3) F%#$ off.
Hmmm... I think if you or any other theist wants to be taken seriously on an atheist forum you need to be able to make a coherent argument as to why it is not irrational for you to believe in a god. You need to be equipped to defend your position. Do you understand why this might be?

But your 3 categories are not required.

Loki

1st February 2010, 01:14 PM

See, there's another way in which we are different. I care very much to understand the world in which I live. It does matter to me whether such an extraordinary claim is true/untrue. And so I would ask them questions at least until I could establish whether there was any reason for me to consider their claim valid.

Much as I have done for your claim. :)

As do we, clay, as do we.

ClayMonk

1st February 2010, 02:30 PM

Okay i'm happy to bow out, I don't have the time or inclination to write a 60 page paper about why I have accepted God and it wouldn't matter if I did. I have said all along that I cannot prove God's existence to you but you seem adamant that I need to otherwise we can't even have a conversation. I didn't realise that joining meant I would have to defend my faith or f*&$ off.

All I have done is said what happened to me because I was asked. Since that point everyone has been asking for evidence and proof or trying to get a proposition out of me so they can hack at it, which by the way is easy to do when you have no proposition of your own.

I will bow out now but this is my conclusion (no offense intended); Atheists have no proposition so they need to "get" one off someone to hack at or else their atheism has no purpose. That is why atheists demand evidence for my experiences, evidence that I know and they know I can't provide. I think the evidence for the existence of God is actually in God. This circular reasoning pisses atheists off but that's the way it works, God will not reduce himself to our prideful reasoning and tests. He can't do anything because emotions will follow and he cannot walk the earth as a man. I as man can never prove Him to an atheist and an atheist will never look to Him for it. It would not matter what God did, atheists would not accept Him.

I didn't come to try and prove anything because I know I can't. I'm not trying to upset anyone, I am merely being honest and that is my conclusion.

Dan Gleibitz

1st February 2010, 02:37 PM

God will not reduce himself to our prideful reasoning and tests. He can't do anything because emotions will follow and he cannot walk the earth as a man.

How do you know these? In particular the second claim: is this true for all time (including ~2000 years ago) or just current times?

Loki

1st February 2010, 02:39 PM

A theist comes to an atheist forum, set up for atheists to discuss atheism and belief in general (amongst other things, thanks Phroso) and is upset that people ask about the nature of belief, specifically his. Imagine that?

Praxis

1st February 2010, 02:54 PM

GenericBox

1st February 2010, 03:01 PM

Told you he would use the "you big meanies" post again....

wolty

1st February 2010, 03:40 PM

I have a theory, just a little one, that people such as ClayMonk sometimes come to a forum like this because they are (even if they aren't sure of it themselves) actually trying to think their way out of the terribly blinkered world of their religion and beliefs.

I think this way as well. Not all visitors though,(trolls) but he never appeared to me to be anything but sincere.

ClayMonk seems like a decent enough person, and I suspect he has his doubts about what he "believes".
He seemed very decent to me as well, trying hard to appease us in our difficult questions.
I reckon, if he hangs around, he might have a good shot at shucking off the blindfold.
Agree. Almost like some of the things he says are second guessing himself. Looking for answers.

Claymonk, do you think you could be good without god? I actually think you are able to and have taken the first step.

Just a theory, mind, but then I am a fairly optimistic person :)
I like optimism Praxis. :)

Dan Gleibitz

1st February 2010, 03:43 PM

He seemed very decent to me as well, trying hard to appease us in our difficult questions.
For sure. But it still reminds me very much of Sagan's Dragon in My Garage (http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Dragon.htm).

wolty

1st February 2010, 03:57 PM

Actually Praxis, I wonder if they do it subconsciously. Almost like they are at the beginning, of looking for answers. If all is right in their world, why are they here? Understanding of the atheist world view?
We all know the atheist world view is very very simple.

Fass is a little different because he is looking for major intellectual stimulation as well, but, there are few like him that come here.

There are mostly just 1. trolls, 2. serious god botherers that will never understand and 3. others looking for clarity. We need to be careful with the ones looking for clarity, the serious god botherers will never understand and deserve every ridicule I can think of.

wolty

1st February 2010, 04:12 PM

For sure. But it still reminds me very much of Sagan's Dragon in My Garage (http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Dragon.htm).

Yes mate. But. The question I would maybe ask is this.

I know that Claymonk has had some drug issues. I noticed the response about drug use. ( which we all did )
He then made the statement that he could not believe we did not pick up on that. I know in my position I saw the post, ran it through my brain, made a summation about it and came to a conclusion. This conclusion was, he was being honest about it, he was honest enough to relate it and be open. We all ( I think ) came to the conclusion that it was not entirely relevent to what he was saying at the time but it was put away for further reference.

To the question,

@ Claymonk, do you think that your previous drug use has had some bearing on your experience in church? As in, we all know that drug use can effect the brain in some very weird ways.
Could your brain be in some way changed to accept propositions that are entirlely different to anything you have experienced before?

two dogs

1st February 2010, 04:18 PM

... he cannot walk the earth as a man.
...

So who was Jesus then? :confused:

wolty

1st February 2010, 04:37 PM

Perhaps the refusal to even consider the godless possibilities of his experience is an evaluation of the potential cost in self-esteem, peer respect and family friction, if he should realise it's all been effort wasted on nothing.

Yes I get that as well. Maybe the easy as she goes approach is the best way.
Now I sound like I am trying to be invidious (the way religions work). Not my intention.
I am basically a nice guy and don't get into the ridicule and heated comments at all. Some are fair game, others not. IMO

Sir Patrick Crocodile

1st February 2010, 05:16 PM

From what it seems to me you are a Just-In-Case Christian (JICC) - you believe in god just in case he exists. Am I correct about this?

Fearless

1st February 2010, 05:54 PM

He can't do anything because emotions will follow and he cannot walk the earth as a man.

I wrote this earlier but had a long phone call (looks like others have addressed this point).

I thought god was:

Omnibenevolent
Omnipotent
Omnipresent etc

He cannot walk the earth as a man!? why? Because he is worried about emotions? Can you please explain because I just cannot for the life of me understand this logic? (and please don't tell me that I can't understand until I accept he exists) If he proved himself in a physical sense (say like Jesus) Atheism would be a thing of the past. What sort of twisted game is it that he plays? He is testing us though right? we need to accept without doubt, only then will we truly see and be saved. This is a clever marketing campaign surely?

Do you know how insulting this is to some people? Namely me.

If the bible and religion did not exist and you had a sudden unexplainable 'spiritual moment' you would be looking for the closest paranormal explanation to excuse something you cant or don't want to understand within yourself.

I know you and others see us as the people with the deficit, but that is where we will never agree, until he proves without a possible physical doubt of his existence.

But this will never happen... and so I will just have to wait patiently until the reaping, and my children, and their children, and their children,s children until a meteor hits or something similar... but in this event, it will be an act of god regardless wont it.

Annie

1st February 2010, 06:54 PM

Your Christian examples are far fetched. Bully; a blustering, quarrelsome, overbearing person who habitually badgers and intimidates smaller or weaker people. I don't generally see Christians doing this. I do. From the Vatican, Parliament, the altar, staff rooms and many dining room tables. Bullying is definately part of the christian package.

Annie

1st February 2010, 09:44 PM

Okay well that's not the usual experience, usually the atheist has made up their mind that you're an illogical buffoon as soon as you say you're a believer and then proceeds to ridicule.

Coming from a long line of believers, I caution myself from thinking of them as illogical buffoons. However, when potentially intelligent conversations degenerate to narrow views concerning an alleged ghost and one very old book, I’m sorry, intellect and logic have indeed left the building.

Seamus

2nd February 2010, 07:16 AM

I do. From the Vatican, Parliament, the altar, staff rooms and many dining room tables. Bullying is definately part of the christian package.

Me too. But then I grew up in a working-class- Bog-Irish-dysfunctional-Catholic family and was educated (if you'll forgive the expression) by a bunch of brutal sadists called 'De La Salle Brothers'

Call me picky,but I consider taking people who disagree with you and burning them alive a fairly extreme form of bullying.

The only reason Christians of diverse flavours stopped murdering heretics was because they were no longer allowed to. Based on my observation over a lifetime, a great many Christians still would if they could*. I believe televised auto da feys would be very popular,especially in the Bible belt.:mad:

*In fact one fact one was jailed recently in the US for doing just that;he murdered a doctor who performed abortions.

"I see,believe as I do or I'll hurt you" (Bryan the talking dog)

Sir Patrick Crocodile

2nd February 2010, 11:57 AM

TÐöer

2nd February 2010, 01:00 PM

I answered a similar question on another forum so I will re-post that rather than type it again. I'm not sure how it differs from a Muslim, I am yet to meet a Muslim that did not decide to become a Muslim rather than having a spiritual experience which led them to become a believer, which is what I call born-again. I tried to do a bit of Google research but could only find Muslims that converted to Christianity, so the answer to that is I don't know.

Sorry for lagging behind on the discussion,

Replying to the original story.

I know exactly what you mean, when I was at the salvation army xmas BBQ, I felt this spiritual pressure in the environment. I was tempted to step forward.

I'm glad I didn't, I felt the same spiritual pressure, when I was at a Buddhist retreat. It means nothing really.

To tell you the truth, that "Spiritual" feelings, is actually, your own resistence. The burden of not believing, was weighing down on you, and you just wanted to let go.

The words that were said by the religious leader was all too promising, and comfortable, only a fool would not want it.

This is what caused the feelings that you had. Its like being told by your friend that a race horse was going to win a race. After listening to his sales pitch, you gain that gut feeling, that "hey, he could be right, I feel it"

As for asking for forgiveness. Sure, who wouldn't feel relieved when they open up what is penned up inside them? You just tricked yourself into thinking that by saying sorry to God, he was going to make things all better. This is what gave you that good feeling.

Imagine, when your car breaks down, and you see a mechanic coming over, surely you'd feel relieved and saved (not to your degree of course) but that has no weightage as to whether you can actually be saved. (Car being fixed or perhaps you need to refer to another mechanic)

And like what Croc said, the only reason you feel so strongly about the religion is because you did stuff, which normal people don't, and the adverse come around, made you feel that perhaps you had found the answer.

Conclusion; these spiritual feelings you are refering to, are all in your head. But the important thing is what makes you happy. If it does, who am I to tell you not to feel them?

Just make sure you know the truth before you preach.

Annie

2nd February 2010, 06:58 PM

Having been to TWO Christian schools myself (going back in the days before I knew about my autism because my Islamic parents hid it from me) I used to be bullied by Christians all the time. In fact most of them had this attitude problem and loved to pick on me. They exploited me as well by tricking me into doing things. They attempted to threaten me. They beat me up because I did not believe in their god.

So if anybody does not see Christians being bullies, they should go to a Christian school or two.
@croc - agreed. Unfortunately, some private schools foster elitism which, when added to a mix of intolerance and ignorance, creates a very ugly environment.
http://www.pipalya.com/rlt/public/six-myths.html (Myth 6 - Bullying)

Annie

6th February 2010, 01:02 PM

@ Claymonk - You seem like a very honest, straight forward type of guy. We like that here. I don't think we are meaning to sound harsh as many of us here have worn those very same rose coloured glasses. However, we have taken them off and are all the better for doing so. :)

ClayMonk

27th October 2010, 01:26 PM

Perhaps this will help explain.

Ohhh I still get notifications by email. Did you get bored and bump the thread?

Sorry, help explain what?

Justtristo

27th October 2010, 04:56 PM

sNDZb0KtJDk
Perhaps this will help explain.

Great video you have posted Mr Black, it helped me explain a few things I was confused about before.

ClayMonk

28th October 2010, 12:00 PM

I'm not sure of the motivation behind resurrecting a 6 month old thread about my spiritual experience after all this time and posting a video on why you lack belief but anyhow..

To be honest my eyes glazed over, there is certainly no new content in that video. I will point out one thing though and that is the "hostility directed at atheists simply for not believing in gods. Atheists condemned, criticized etc.." . Have a read back over this thread.. how ironic

ClayMonk

29th October 2010, 10:22 AM

Actually I just re-read over some of the thread which was very interesting to me because I could take more in without intense bombardment.

A few atheists were very kind.. so thank you to those that were (wolty in particular).

Irreverent Mr Black, I can't help but think that you're some kind of militant atheist reverse-evangelist.

ClayMonk

29th October 2010, 11:48 AM

Haha I like that one.

Yes that was just my observation, especially looking at your signature and discovering that you have a website devoted to atheism.

wearestardust

29th October 2010, 12:04 PM

Haha I like that one.

Yes that was just my observation, especially looking at your signature and discovering that you have a website devoted to atheism.

Good point: atheism, flying planes into buildings, suicide bombings, shooting abortion doctors, Waco: all the same thing really.

By the way, apropos your suddenly noticing that a website devoted to atheism exists and all that portends: you did notice that you were posting on an atheist website didn't you? If not, well, I'm sorry, you are. that's why there are so many atheists around talking atheist stuff. Look at the top of the screen. Perhaps you thought the Atheist Foundation logo, and the Atheism: celebrate reason banners, were just advertising banners. No, they're about auspicing the site. It may not have occurred to you either, but a URL with atheistfoundation.org in it might also have something to do with atheism.

wearestardust

29th October 2010, 12:07 PM

I'm not sure of the motivation behind resurrecting a 6 month old thread about my spiritual experience after all this time and posting a video on why you lack belief but anyhow..

The netz works in mysterious wayz...

You made a lot of posts to a thread you feel is unnecessary and containing of nothing worthwhile reading. Perhaps you should get around to setting up your account so that it doesn't auto-email you about subscribed threads. If you don't want to be here: well, to quote Cromwell: "You have sat too long for any good you have been doing. Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"

ClayMonk

29th October 2010, 12:22 PM

Good point: atheism, flying planes into buildings, suicide bombings, shooting abortion doctors, Waco: all the same thing really.

That analogy makes no sense sorry, I mean I understand but I see no connection to my post.

By the way, apropos your suddenly noticing that a website devoted to atheism exists and all that portends: you did notice that you were posting on an atheist website didn't you? If not, well, I'm sorry, you are. that's why there are so many atheists around talking atheist stuff. Look at the top of the screen. Perhaps you thought the Atheist Foundation logo, and the Atheism: celebrate reason banners, were just advertising banners. No, they're about auspicing the site. It may not have occurred to you either, but a URL with atheistfoundation.org in it might also have something to do with atheism.

It's quite obvious that I was making a connection between;

a person having their own personal website devoted to atheism (prior to being informed it wasn't), as well as;
a signature that says "Lose Faith NOW!! ask me how" and;
that person actively trying to reverse-evangelise, that is to say bring believers to a state of lack of belief

Moreover I didn't make a comment for or against such a practice (although I do find it odd) so I really have no idea what you're on about.

BTW how many wheelbarrow words do you like to use, does that make you feel smarter?

ClayMonk

29th October 2010, 12:24 PM

The netz works in mysterious wayz...

You made a lot of posts to a thread you feel is unnecessary and containing of nothing worthwhile reading. Perhaps you should get around to setting up your account so that it doesn't auto-email you about subscribed threads. If you don't want to be here: well, to quote Cromwell: "You have sat too long for any good you have been doing. Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"

Why would I go when I have the pleasure of talking to knobs who think they are intelligent like you?

When did I say I felt the posts in this thread were unnecessary and containing of nothing worthwhile reading?

ClayMonk

29th October 2010, 12:44 PM

I can help you lose faith if you're interested, Claymonk.

However, if you read these forums, you will see many cases of me encouraging believers to actually bone up on their source material.

My website isn't "devoted to atheism". It's devoted to humour and life. I guess you missed the Linux story and the local crime tale, for example, or the hand-drawn illustration.

I think you may have a touch of confirmation bias there. Better get it looked at.

I don't think it was confirmation bias but rather a gathering of information since our initial discussion until now, making a conclusion from an assumption and testing to see if it was right. I was probably wrong after the test but because human's have defense mechanisms I can't be sure.

ClayMonk

29th October 2010, 12:59 PM

Does Jesus call people "knobs"?

(No, but he does a really good Poo Joke if you know where to look.)

Kindly do not resort to personal abuse.

Okay but I literally lol'ed when you pulled out the WWJD.

wearestardust

29th October 2010, 01:12 PM

That analogy makes no sense sorry, I mean I understand but I see no connection to my post.

Mr Black posted a cartoon that drew attention to the social tendency to describe as extremists both religious terrorists and atheists who happen to admit publicly to the fact. Your response was to imply that Mr Black is a hypcritical crazed atheist extremist because he has a website. And you are saying you can't make the connection in respect of my post? Really?

ClayMonk

29th October 2010, 07:51 PM

Mr Black posted a cartoon that drew attention to the social tendency to describe as extremists both religious terrorists and atheists who happen to admit publicly to the fact. Your response was to imply that Mr Black is a hypcritical crazed atheist extremist because he has a website. And you are saying you can't make the connection in respect of my post? Really?

Firstly, now you're putting words in my mouth. I said I can't help but think that TIMB is a militant atheist reverse-evangelist.

Secondly, I did not comment for or against such militant atheism. I wanted to know out curiosity if he was and why someone be inclined to do that because if I find something strange I like to try and understand it before making any conclusions.

Thirdly the cartoon was a response to my post not the other way around.. seriously.

ClayMonk

29th October 2010, 07:54 PM

You want to represent him, you're going to get called.

How do you know I want to represent him? it's been six months, maybe i'm not a Christian anymore.

The personal abuse thing is an AFA Forums standard.

Yeah my apologies for that.

wearestardust

29th October 2010, 09:28 PM

...
Thirdly the cartoon was a response to my post not the other way around.. seriously.

Bullshit. Mr Black posted the cartoon and you then commented on his website. But Mr Black seems disinclined to take you to task for your discourtesy and he doesn't need me to protect him. I shan't comment on your other childish attempts in the same post (the one quoted above) to squirm out of being called on your offensiveness. I can't help but think that you are an offensive ignorant snot who has nothing better to do than troll.

Nice of you to apologise, by the way, to Mr Black for your name calling at me and then continue to try to baffle me with your bollox.

ClayMonk

30th October 2010, 07:09 AM

Okay there is a lot of stuff going on here again so I need to break it down. I would hate to be your brain.

I didn't realise you were on about the website, you're quite scattery.

Bullshit. Mr Black posted the cartoon and you then commented on his website.

I said my observation was that Mr Black was a militant atheist reverse-evangelist, especially looking at Mr Black's signature and realizing that he has a website that I thought at the time was devoted to atheism.

I don't know how many times I've said it but you don't get it; I didn't make a comment for or against such a practice (although I do find it odd) so I really have no idea what you're point is.

Moreover this was after (as you have rightly pointed out) the cartoon which I liked hence the "Haha I like that one" so it was clear that I was not in disagreeance with the cartoon.

But Mr Black seems disinclined to take you to task for your discourtesy and he doesn't need me to protect him.

Take me to task for what? there is nothing to take me to task on which is probably why he didn't.

I shan't comment on your other childish attempts in the same post (the one quoted above) to squirm out of being called on your offensiveness.

Let's get this straight; you came on here in a flurry of offensive dialogue towards me, I stuck up for myself but broke the board rules.

I can't help but think that you are an offensive ignorant snot who has nothing better to do than troll.

That's fine, it's none of my business what you think.

Nice of you to apologise, by the way, to Mr Black for your name calling at me and then continue to try to baffle me with your bollox.

I apologised for breaking the board rules, I didn't apologise because I said it in err. If walks like a duck and quacks like a duck..

If you show people respect in you're diologue (particularly opening dialogue) then perhaps you won't be called a knob.

ClayMonk

1st November 2010, 09:23 AM

EDIT: That's a suspension, not a salutation. Your profile is banned from posting for 48 hours, and you won't get access by switching to a smartphone.

I have a technical background, i'm aware of how vB works. I went to AFA on my iphone and realised it was tapatalk native hence the attempted logon through tapatalk.

ClayMonk

1st November 2010, 09:31 AM

So, CMonk, how is life anyway?

I take it you mean my spiritual life, unless you are particularly interested in general.

I'm at a stage where I don't know if God's real or not, but then I don't know that He's not either. I don't necessarily subscribe to the atheist notion that He's not real until proven otherwise considering;

a) My experiences are a kind of proof (for me personally)
b) There is evidence to suggest we are born with a predisposition to believe there is a God.

So to cut a long story short, my mind is in a battle and I struggle to reconcile it.

ClayMonk

1st November 2010, 09:32 AM

Do you change your avatar more than your undies? :p

ClayMonk

1st November 2010, 10:26 AM

@CM: I'm interested in how you are going, generally.

Family and career still good, I hope?

Yes my family is very good, my wife is due soon and I am loving life, my son is starting to want to hang around dad all the time which is cool. My career is good, on track at least but I'm a bit vanilla about my job ATM. I went from IT Manager (which was cool) to HR Manager (which was stressful but cool) to Business Manager which is stressful but isn't so cool because i'm basically the company accountant and I don't think I want to be an accountant, I don't seem to enjoy it even though I'm good at it. It is good though in terms of my career because I want to get into general management so my broad experiences will certainly help that. I finish my MBA end of next year so I might move on then, probably to Melbourne I think.

I'm not wearing any undies, and I'm all sweaty, having just come in from a bit of morning exertion. Thanks for asking about the undies.

:eek:

As far as avatars go:
http://rynosseros.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Avatart150.gif
I am the official Avatart of the forum.

Can't disagree with that.

ClayMonk

1st November 2010, 10:42 AM

Seriously, CM, while your spiritual stuff is your own choice, I suspect your "buzz" may have been a personal crisis. A god would need to be a bit stronger on follow-up, for my money.

If the Christian God existed then I think he works through people, the Bible says that we were given dominion over the earth.

You can read as much of my long, wobbly ramble as I have written so far, here (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=1583), for comparison if you feel that way inclined.

Yeah I had a look at that last time but it was a bit tldr and I don't get heaps of time. Today I have a fair bit but I need to study in between mucking around on this forum.

ClayMonk

1st November 2010, 11:06 AM

The bible says a lot of stuff about presence too.

I haven't written my next few chapters yet (duh!) but I came to the conclusion that the god phenomenon is a community-driven sort of mind-virus. Once I left church communities, the illusion dropped away sharply.

Yeah I think thats right actually, and its downright weird at times. Although church is probably the mind-virus, I don't know about the god phenomenon.

Then there is the other way to think of it isn't there; no connection with God, Jesus comes - connection with God, passes to disciples, passes on to others. So the mind-virus may be God not a mind-virus.

But then you get these silly colts that believe really dumb shit (dumber than Christianity) and kill themself. Maybe its evolution, people need to be accepted by their society to survive so the mind adapts to that society.

Sir Patrick Crocodile

1st November 2010, 11:16 AM

ClayMonk: Why do you not believe in Santa Claus - why god?

ClayMonk

1st November 2010, 11:28 AM

ClayMonk: Why do you not believe in Santa Claus - why god?

It's a good question but the answer has to be experiences that I think I have with the Christian God.

Also I don't actually get the atheist argument about easter bunny and the flying spaghetti monster. Non of those have been written about as factual for thousands of years so the analogy doesn't line up.

ClayMonk

1st November 2010, 12:38 PM

Yeah i'm just saying that the analogy doesn't make sense.

Sir Patrick Crocodile

1st November 2010, 12:41 PM

It's a good question but the answer has to be experiences that I think I have with the Christian God.

Also I don't actually get the atheist argument about easter bunny and the flying spaghetti monster. Non of those have been written about as factual for thousands of years so the analogy doesn't line up.The point is, it could have been anything. To many of us atheists, belief in the Christian god is an adult version of an imaginary friend, and also sounds more ridiculous than the flying spaghetti monster.

How do you know the experiences were with the christian god and not Santa Claus for example?

ClayMonk

1st November 2010, 12:48 PM

The point is, it could have been anything. To many of us atheists, belief in the Christian god is an adult version of an imaginary friend, and also sounds more ridiculous than the flying spaghetti monster.

I know that, and it could very well be an imaginary friend. It doesn't sound more ridiculous than the flying spaghetti monster to me at the moment.

How do you know the experiences were with the christian god and not Santa Claus for example?

Only through circumstantial evidence.

Sir Patrick Crocodile

1st November 2010, 12:49 PM

What experiences with this god have you had though? There is often a possible explanation for these "experiences" too.

ClayMonk

1st November 2010, 12:54 PM

What experiences with this god have you had though? There is often a possible explanation for these "experiences" too.

There is always another possible explanation though. For example if God were to talk to you through a burning bush you could blame it on the mushrooms you had for breakfast, or perhaps you were dehydrated. Does that make the other possible explanation right?

Sir Patrick Crocodile

1st November 2010, 12:59 PM

ClayMonk

1st November 2010, 01:04 PM

But how would you know it was God then? If you had some funny mushrooms for breakfast or got dehydrated, that is likely to have been a contributing factor. Unless of course, the contribution of god can be proven.

I don't know. I suppose the point was that it doesn't seem to matter how God might present himself, there is always an alternative explanation. How could He present himself for an atheist to conclude He is real?

Sir Patrick Crocodile

1st November 2010, 01:23 PM

I am asking you how you know your god is real. What is the evidence you have that he is real?

ABridgeTooFar

1st November 2010, 01:39 PM

Next time you have a conversation with this God, tell him to drop me a visit. Until then i don't see any difference with your story, than when i thought Santa Claus was talking to me when i was 5.

ABridgeTooFar

1st November 2010, 01:42 PM

Also, the FSM is a perfectly valid argument.

Evidence for the Christian God: 0
Evidence for Zeus: 0
Evidence for Alah: 0
Evidence for Santa: 0
Evidence for FSM: 0

Definition of belief: "To have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of something, although without absolute proof that one is right in doing so"

Believing in any of the following is equally rational.

ClayMonk

1st November 2010, 02:22 PM

ABridgeTooFar

1st November 2010, 02:35 PM

I'm at a pretty fucked up point right now in terms of my faith so I'd rather not suffer the usual atheist rhetoric. Is it possible that someone could answer me this question; How could God present himself for an atheist to conclude He is real?

Moved my reply to the thread above: http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showpost.php?p=139969&postcount=19

ClayMonk

1st November 2010, 02:41 PM

I will go with this;

A convincing signature :
http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/...ight=signature

An internally coherent holy book that made accurate, unambiguous predictions (not self fulfilling ones) about events.

A definition of the deity that didn't carry inherent paradoxes.

Evidence, collected with the same rigour and attention to detail as physicists at CERN apply to their work, that a miracle, in which the laws of physics had been temporarily altered to bring about a boon outcome that made sense in the context of the whole of humanity, had occurred.

Natural justice.

ClayMonk

1st November 2010, 02:54 PM

Cheers, I was wondering if most atheists were like the OP of that thread; that is to say that it wouldn't matter what happened, God could not exist in their world. I think the above points from Worldslaziestbusker are quite reasonable.

youngmoigle

1st November 2010, 02:56 PM

I'm at a pretty fucked up point right now in terms of my faith so I'd rather not suffer the usual atheist rhetoric. Is it possible that someone could answer me this question; How could God present himself for an atheist to conclude He is real?

He could provide answers to all of the Clay Mathematics Institute's Millenium Prize Problems.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Prize_Problems

He'd score himself quite a few million dollars if he did - and as any TV evangelist will tell you, God always needs money.

davo

1st November 2010, 03:56 PM

The thing is, I could list on and on and on the evidences that would have be conclude a god is real.

Eg: if I walked outside and there was a million cars stacked on top of each other, with a baby holding up the stack with one hand saying 'god exists dumbo', others saw it, could come and visit this baby and scientific tests showed there was no explanation. etc etc

The list of stuff is huge in fact. From simple things like my grandfather coming back from the dead (if you call that simple) years after his confirmed death and burial in the ground, leaving the doctors flabbergasted ..

A great start would simply be someone putting forward a logically reasoned argument for the existence of god, currently is is just whispy references to something that can do anything, so therefore they can get around even full blown logical paradoxes just by saying that. ("oh it can do anything so I don't have to think about that!")

I am interested however in what it would take for you to conclude that god did not exist? Can you quantify it?

The problem is the construct theists have created is not falsifiable, it is a god of the gaps. They might as well be arguing flat out leprechauns exist, by telling me what they wear over and over as if that somehow is going to make me suddenly 'believe'

davo

1st November 2010, 04:01 PM

Cheers, I was wondering if most atheists were like the OP of that thread; that is to say that it wouldn't matter what happened, God could not exist in their world.

Actually the OP said no such thing. He gave clear reference of what it would take.

I too don't trust my faculties. We have brains that can be affected by many things, hallucinations are common place. It is even common for people to believe they are a god/jesus/alien.

Let's just look at the masses of beliefs, they can't all be right, so show masses of people can be wrong yet still believe. History has shown us this and modern times there are whole cults and other assorted belief systems that have MASSES of people believe in them, without evidence.

Simply having a high standard of evidential requirements that tries to avoid these issues is not saying it would not matter what happened they would not believe. He was quite explicit over what exactly it would take in evidence.

two dogs

1st November 2010, 04:10 PM

...
How could God present himself for an atheist to conclude He is real?
He could stop the sun in the sky, for a couple of hours, so that we've got even more daylight than we do now thanks to daylight savings. ;)

That should not be too taxing on him, as he's apparently performed that trick before.

ClayMonk

1st November 2010, 04:20 PM

I am interested however in what it would take for you to conclude that god did not exist? Can you quantify it?

I can't conclude he doesn't exist and that's been one of my issues but for know, after a lot of questioning and soul searching I now don't think he does exist either which is a very bizarre feeling.

wearestardust

1st November 2010, 04:46 PM

I can't conclude he doesn't exist and that's been one of my issues but for know, after a lot of questioning and soul searching I now don't think he does exist either which is a very bizarre feeling.

welcome to atheism;)

No, seriously. Atheism is not the view that there is no god. It is the view that there is not an adequate case for god.

davo

1st November 2010, 04:47 PM

I can't conclude he doesn't exist and that's been one of my issues but for know, after a lot of questioning and soul searching I now don't think he does exist either which is a very bizarre feeling.

To be honest I wouldn't worry about it ;) Your normal it's only because of the fact a lot of people do believe ... makes it weird yea?

Personally I don't see the christian, islam or hindu gods as possibly existing due to logical arguments etc.

What confuses me ... is the folk that argue 'god exists' .. but refuse to quantify what a god actually is, it's just a kinda airy fairy good thing, that is uber powerful (as Loki has said, most people say what a god does, not what a god is)

So it kinda annoys me sometimes when people say 'you can't prove god doesn't exist', I have to ask them what they mean by god etc. To prove something does not exist or not, takes some kind of thing to actually be discussing. For the most part the deist type believers leave that up to the disbeliever .. in other words 'think up some concept of a god that you can't dispute, I bet you can, therefore you can't say god doesn't exist'

I think that is kinda wrong way to look at it, and puts the burden of the explanation of a god onto a person that has no belief in one!

It's like saying .. 'You can't prove dfigdgagsadga doesn't exist, therefore there is every possibility it does!' then getting upset that the person asks you to explain what you mean by dfigdgagsadga :)

All in all the concept of atheism has always been made out to be a 'dirty word', and moreso recently with believers very much making disbelief a kind of 'group' .. even associating it to a religion. Where it really is just an explanation of not being able to say 'I believe god exists'.

This kinda makes a vicious circle whereby those who don't believe in a god tend to more and more distance and find associations with other disbelievers, and the cycle grows. For the most part, those that disbelieve don't care ... they hang around with believers too (not the way out ones tho;) .. it's all good.

You get boards like this one and others where people find it very interesting to discuss topics along these lines, or find solace due to circumstances (say a partner that is a believer, or family, or social group) or have felt betrayed because they were a believer once and just ended up reasoning their way out of that blind faith. It may seem that atheism is all heavy discussions etc, but really the folk that do hang out in these places have reasons too, either support, friends, thoughts on topics without belief ideas being in the way, confronting their own convictions, etc etc

All I can say is not to worry about it :) I don't think if a 'god' existed in the form of a loving god it would really care too much if you believed in it or not :) In fact, it would probably be better on ya for using your god-given brain and working out the world for yourself, being good despite no offer of everlasting reward :)

I wouldn't torture yourself over it, (not that you are) but would explore it all from your own perspective. Look at the actual arguments (not the people) from both perspectives and reason your own conclusions. It's all anyone here really wants, even if they are strong in their own concepts and give you a really good bouncing board :)

Sir Patrick Crocodile

1st November 2010, 05:05 PM

I'm at a pretty fucked up point right now in terms of my faith so I'd rather not suffer the usual atheist rhetoric. Is it possible that someone could answer me this question; How could God present himself for an atheist to conclude He is real?I'm not sure what you mean by "atheist rhetoric" - but if there's evidence that is credible, and reproducable too, that would convince me. One out of one billion "miraculous" healings, for example, and a few experiences of someone is not very convincing.

That "being fucked up in terms of your faith" sounds quite normal to me. I used to be a muslim and eventually for a long time I was also fucked up in terms of faith. :)

I can't conclude he doesn't exist and that's been one of my issues but for know, after a lot of questioning and soul searching I now don't think he does exist either which is a very bizarre feeling.What you need to do is slow down a little and think. Think about what convinced you that he is real. What experiences convinced you?

And then consider possible explanations for those experiences (eg. those funny mushrooms/dehydration/etc) and then, like a scientist, you can push out those old invalid theories which lack supporting evidence or an explanation.

wearestardust

1st November 2010, 05:18 PM

And then consider possible explanations for those experiences (eg. those funny mushrooms/dehydration/etc) and then, like a scientist, you can push out those old invalid theories which lack supporting evidence or an explanation.

It need not be drugs or anything wild - indeed probably not. There are all kinds of reasons why we might draw erroneous conclusions from our personal experience, and these are not limited at all to religion: alternative medicine, conspiracies, and much of what one reads in the Daily Tele, relies on poor reasoning. And the thing is: good reasoning is not automatic nor natural, except for perhaps a few. Most of the time, we get by on our individual experiences, and they are reliable on a lot of the important stuff (we don't need a scientific study to know that being hit by large heavy objects is bad, for example). But some things - like, again, claims of pharmaceutical efficacy, or the existence of god - that is, things we can't see reliably - need a more stringent kind of thinking.

Certainly when I was a 'charismatic' Christian I believed in all sorts of mystical stuff. In retrospect - and I should add, I didn't in the first instance reason myself out of faith - my perceptions of what was going on were entirely unreliable.

Xeno

1st November 2010, 05:39 PM

@Claymonk: not believing in god is quite safe; at least, no riskier than anything else you will ever do. :)

ClayMonk

1st November 2010, 05:40 PM

ClayMonk

1st November 2010, 05:47 PM

@CM: No problem whatsoever. At least you dared to think.

You banned me whilst I was unconverting you prick :p j/k.

Thanks for your patience Mr Black.

Sir Patrick Crocodile

1st November 2010, 05:48 PM

To tell you the truth I can't think of any explanations for it, maybe I had been bad for so long that a decision to be good was overwhelming and caused intense emotion like I had never experienced before. Regardless, because I can't explain it doesn't make it God (which I still spell with a capital G?).From what I understand about some religions, many avoid spelling it as "God" in order to avoid the risk of blasphemy. You may know atheist_angel around here, who still spells it "g-d" - nothing much, but I notice a lot of people still have habits lingering around. Nothing to worry about mate. It may help engage in conversations with christians too. :)

It's been coming a while, I think the initial post was actually exploring the possibility that you guys were on to something. I've lost my faith over a long period but I suppose I just admitted to myself today. I've gone from witnessing down the mall to an atheist, WTF.I also lost my faith over a long period of time. Be warned you may still have a bit of the old faith lingering about: I found it hard to admit to myself that the concept of heaven and hell was all made up shit. That is probably the hard part. Once I got the idea that it was all made up, I stopped believing in the other shit. :)

I apologise if I've been edgy to some of you (wearestardust in particular) but it's a pretty tough thing to admit that you're delusional when you think you're a reasonably rational person.I still have this issue. Often when someone on these forums destroys my arguments, it is actually a very tough thing to admit you are wrong, and often leads me wasting time trying to find a way to prove I am right (and often failing) and when I cannot do so, apologizing and admitting you are wrong is hard. But once I do it, it helps me relax a bit. :)

wearestardust

1st November 2010, 05:49 PM

(wearestardust in particular)

We're cool:cool:

Xeno

1st November 2010, 06:11 PM

How many people here have exited ornage?

ClayMonk

1st November 2010, 06:33 PM

We've had one or two. One chappie recovered from reincarnation, for example, and the de-ornaging was, well, like he'd been reborn...

I've got to ask ClayMonk whether he'd like to lose his Ornage now. We aren't necessarily lovable playmates.

What's Ornage? I hope its not ass sex..

ClayMonk

1st November 2010, 06:41 PM

Lol yes you can remove my Ornage if you see fit.

ClayMonk

1st November 2010, 06:46 PM

No worries, cheers.

Sir Patrick Crocodile

1st November 2010, 06:56 PM

Congratulations ClayMonk

atheist_angel

1st November 2010, 07:20 PM

Lol yes you can remove my Ornage if you see fit. Yes, Congratulations ClayMonk!!! ;)
You may know atheist_angel around here, who still spells it "g-d"
My ears were burning. :p

ClayMonk

1st November 2010, 07:22 PM

Thanks Protium.

ClayMonk

1st November 2010, 07:25 PM

Thanks guys

wolty

1st November 2010, 07:36 PM

aw nice in blue Claymonk. :)

Loki

1st November 2010, 08:06 PM

Wow, what an interesting thread.

Welcome blue Claymonk.

I still have this issue. Often when someone on these forums destroys my arguments, it is actually a very tough thing to admit you are wrong, and often leads me wasting time trying to find a way to prove I am right (and often failing) and when I cannot do so, apologizing and admitting you are wrong is hard. But once I do it, it helps me relax a bit.

It's not really people "destroying" your arguments (though a lot of arguments we see here are very weak and easily eviscerated). It's more people challenging your arguments (and their own position), robust debate lets everyone explore their assumptions and benefits all participants. We test arguments to destruction here, only the good ones survive.

Can be a bit of a trial though, especially for those who aren't expecting challenge.

Well done Claymonk for working through your preconceptions and daring to reject those that didn't stand up to your own scrutiny.

Logic please

1st November 2010, 09:00 PM

Claymonk, good on you for daring to question and challenge your own thinking and worldview, it is a gutsy thing to do. :)

I know the thread has moved on a little, but this comment caught my attention:
Also I don't actually get the atheist argument about easter bunny and the flying spaghetti monster. Non of those have been written about as factual for thousands of years so the analogy doesn't line up.

The bare assertion that a "delusion" has been presented as factual for a long time, and/or by a majority of people, doesn't logically make that "delusion" factual. For how long were all of humanity's finest minds in furious agreement that the earth was the centre of the universe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copernicus)?

It's not a popularity contest, and nor is the argument decided by "marking time". It is purely a question of evidence, or in the case of religious claims, lack thereof.

Annie

1st November 2010, 09:12 PM

How many people here have exited ornage?
Hi there claymonk. I have been ornaged for a mere 10 minutes. Not because I did anything bad, it was because I have evil friends.
Welcome. You look good in blue. :)

ABridgeTooFar

1st November 2010, 10:25 PM

Good to see you have come to an informed decision. See you around the forum to argue on other topics ;) Have fun in blue.

Goldenmane

2nd November 2010, 12:12 AM

Well fucking done, Claymonk.

You think. You consider, you weigh thoughts and ideas.

Well done. I salute you.

The woo sticks to you, by the way, and it takes a long time to get rid of it, but you're well on your way and well served by your drive to question what the hell you're doing.

I hate saying things like this, because it sounds like I'm being elitist or cultish.

But well done anyway. Never take anything anyone tells you on faith (including this). You'll be fine.

Xeno

2nd November 2010, 05:19 AM

Hi there claymonk. I have been ornaged for a mere 10 minutes. Not because I did anything bad, it was because I have evil friends.
Welcome. You look good in blue. :)Oh? I thought you were released owing to the wonderful kindness of your friends...:cool:
[ducks quickly]

wearestardust

2nd November 2010, 07:41 AM

Oh? I thought you were released owing to the wonderful kindness of your friends...:cool:
[ducks quickly]

Don't mention the war!

cyclist

2nd November 2010, 09:36 AM

I wasn't on the forums when you first joined, but it was nice to see the last few posts from you.

It looks like you actually listened to the arguments and came to a decision based upon your own reasoning.

Nice to see you in blue.

James

Darwinsbulldog

2nd November 2010, 11:41 AM

To tell you the truth I can't think of any explanations for it, maybe I had been bad for so long that a decision to be good was overwhelming and caused intense emotion like I had never experienced before. Regardless, because I can't explain it doesn't make it God (which I still spell with a capital G?).

It's been coming a while, I think the initial post was actually exploring the possibility that you guys were on to something. I've lost my faith over a long period but I suppose I just admitted it to myself today. I've gone from witnessing down the mall to an atheist, WTF.

I apologise if I've been edgy to some of you (wearestardust in particular) but it's a pretty tough thing to admit that you're delusional when you think you're a reasonably rational person.

Claymonk,
You are one steely-eyed missileman! Congratulations! I went though a similar process on Richard Dawkins forum. [Now defunct! :( -the forum, not my atheism! :p].

I think I asked you this before , but what do you think now??

1. God made man in his image?

OR

2. Man made god in his image? ;):)

It almost made me hear a big "clunk" as the implications of option two formed in my brain. A great many things which were formally inconsistent and inexplicable became more understandable. For one thing, my mind was at last one-at peace with itself. No more compartmentalism between science and god. No more rationalizations for god. My mind set the value of god to zero [non-existence], instead of infinity. Rigorously, of course, we atheists cannot absolutely claim that god does not exist, because to know that for sure, one would have to be omniscient. [Which of course, is wrong].
Do you see now, the arrogance of the theist claim? It is an absolute claim-god exists. God might still exist, but we do not have absolute knowledge and therefore cannot be sure. [Absolutely sure, that is].

But, psychologically, gods make sense. They are sky-daddies-imaginary parents. Politically, they make sense because leaders can [and have] used them to justify their powers. [Kings ruling by absolute and divine right, and the Pope etc ruling by the authority of god. If god does not exist, then the Pope is just an ordinary guy in a skirt, with no more moral authority than anyone else]. ;)

Praxis

3rd November 2010, 12:57 PM

Now this is what I like to see! I am really thrilled to see you have thought your way to logic and reason. Well done, that man!

May I offer you this marvellous YouTube clip as a congratulations gift. In light of your good critical thinking, I think you will enjoy it:

r6w2M50_Xdk

Sir Patrick Crocodile

3rd November 2010, 01:09 PM

I wonder if ClayMonk can provide a "Comming Out (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=14)" story too. :)

ClayMonk

4th November 2010, 06:07 AM

Thanks everyone

@darwinsbulldog

Yes I can see how we make god in our image, particularly because the gods end up a product of our culture e.g. Buddah and the ever changing Christian god.

@crocodile

We could probably shift this thread in there and it would suffice

@mrblack

You're right, it takes time to work through. It's an exciting time though, I feel a million bucks. I'm sure it will take time to shake some of my subconscious habits, like praying in my head then thinking WTF did I do that for.

I'm listening to "The Greatest Show on Earth" audio book ATM which is really good. I want to have a good understanding of evolution, biblical errors, dating methods, the historical Jesus etc. because I need to be able to answer dumb Christian statements now. I never myself was silly enough to say evolution wasn't true or that the earth was 6000 years old but now I need the answers on the other end! didn't see that coming :) I'm sure I will get dumb statements from Christian friends over the coming months.