The Big Family-Related Christmas/Xmas/Mythmas/Santa Thread

[peterthames]

What do Atheist families do at Christmas?
I was just wondering, do they say we don't do xmas, so no gifts, xmas dinner etc What about the children how would that effect them? and their peers who do, do xmas

Your thoughts please.

[His Noodly Appendage]

Second-generation atheist, and we've always done christmas.

We've never bothered with the religious stuff - it's just a good excuse for pressies, food, and a huge party with family.

("they"?)

[GUDLUSS]

We do Chrissy anyway...GREAT excuse for presents, but sadly also for my parents to throw their God-awful BORING dinner parties :mad:

[SchizoDeluxe]

We celebrate christmas just as an excuse to get together, share presents and to get drunk ;) It's a novelty, nothing more.

[GenericBox]

I rationalise to celebrate "Christ"mas because it is hardly a "Christ"ian event. Throughout history other civilisations and religions have celebrated during that time of the year for some reason. So I just claim I am celebrating the 25th of December, not Christmas.

However, as I said in my little bio post, my entire extended family is religious (if not only in the fear that if they don't believe, they'll go to hell) so I have little say in the matter. We do focus on Aussie xmas more than christ christmas. No pray, no church, no religion whatsoever. Just family members at a designated place with lots of alcohol, lots of games to keep the 20 or so kids happy, and lots of talk.

[Kerri-Lee]

We do xmas (I prefer christmyth)- food, family and pressies. Besides, it was originally heathen before it was appropriated by the xtians.

[Vonnie]

We celebrate Santa's birthday. Frankly, though, I think it's a commercial heap of crap, but I play the game and bung on an act for the kids' sake. When they're grown, and moved out, Santa's Birthday will become just another one of mummy's special sleep in days. And if they want to share Santa's Birthday lunch with me, they'd bloody-well put on the spread! Bah humbug.

As for catching up with family - we actually went away for Santa's Birthday last year, deliberately booking our accommodation to arrive on the 25th December, so we wouldn't have to do the extended family xmas thing. I mean, they're nice people and all, but it's actually quite draining, and we catch up with them all at various times during the year without feeling the need to catch up with them all at once!

(We're currently investigating our next holiday, with the arrival date again being 25th December, of course! Added bonus: hardly any traffic. Not a single traffic jam all the way to Yamba!)

Vonnie

[eclectic]

I currently celebrate xmas (christmyth is a great name though! thanks kerri-lee) with my family for the reasons noted by others... basically it's a good piss-up and excuse for a catch-up, feast and presents with my family. Most of my family vaguely believe in the religious side (not my mother or brother but my extended family) but it doesn't impact on the day. Xmas eve we have friends who are free round for drinks.

In the future - when we have a houes & kiddies etc - my partner and I will be hosting xmas, and our mothers will come to us. I'll change things to be more summery with fresh fruit & local seafood, (rather than trying to do the english thing in the heat) again just taking advantage of the days off and a chance to catch-up. I'd rather have it on the solstice - being a physical event rather than a date that christians have chosen - but we'll probably have 2 parties - one for us & friends, one to please the mothers.

[Duffy]

We enjoy our Xmas in all its hypocritical glory. If its ok for xians to pick and choose the best bits of christianity then why shouldn't we. Chrissy is a hoot and if a fake jeebus hadn't had a fake b'day I think society would have come up with another reason to let our hair down...I'm thinking... 'Talk Like a Pirate Day (http://www.talklikeapirate.com/piratehome.html)'. What a wonderfully wierd mob we are!

[eclectic]

I love that talk like a pirate day is international - i heard about it completely separately living in the UK and here. arrrrr

[Godless Ray]

Peter,
I am kind of lucky that the 25th also marks "Festivus". Whilst we use a festivus pole (The wifes pole dancing pole just with added glitter) instead of a tree we do celebrate with brightly packaged gifts etc. It's only rather recently I found about that Christmas thing.


Godless Ray

[Duffy]

The wifes pole dancing pole just with added glitter Godless Ray

Never thought that pole dancing would get a mention.

Not for everyone

eqArCc301dc:D

[Sharpie44]

Were not Christan but we celibate it anyway. It wasn't even a Christan holiday in the first place. We have a big party with a tree, dinner and presents. We also collect money and give it to charity. As a kid I didn't feel any different from the other kids. it's not like your looking at the religious aspects of it at that age anyway.



What do Atheist families do at Christmas?
I was just wondering, do they say we don't do xmas, so no gifts, xmas dinner etc What about the children how would that effect them? and their peers who do, do xmas

Your thoughts please.

[SchizoDeluxe]

Peter,
I am kind of lucky that the 25th also marks "Festivus". Whilst we use a festivus pole (The wifes pole dancing pole just with added glitter) instead of a tree we do celebrate with brightly packaged gifts etc. It's only rather recently I found about that Christmas thing.


Godless Ray

Do you also hold wrestling matches after dinner? :p

[Godless Ray]

Do you also hold wrestling matches after dinner?

Yes we do. Our family take the tradition quite seriously. It has become the holiday we most look forward to. Though we do tire of moving the furniture to make room for the wrestling.


Godless Ray

[shredder]

i celebrate saturnalia, the pagan festival early christians hijacked and re named christmas

[davo]

I celebrate rum and bourbon, not to mention red wine, well gluttony to sum it up ... sloth, greed, self indulgence .. gee the list goes on and on ...

[Fiery]

mmmmm bourbon. me loves teh bourbon. ~drool~ Bourbon makes things taste sooooooooo good. Combined with a bit of the leaf and I think one may nigh eat oneself to death.

[davo]

christmas to me was last year backpacking into Amsterdam for a few weeks checking the squat and music scene (vrankrijk, occii etc), getting off at Amstel station and walking from there into the central red light district where I was staying.

It was summer at the time, so had to stop at pubs along the way as it was extremely humid, have a beer, then hoik the massive pack again and sweat it out till the next pub. repeat. Took me a while till I got to my accomm and drop the pack., by that time I was pretty inebriated.
First thing I did, wobbly on my feet was head down to a coffee shop, nice black coffee and a spliff of White Widow.

maaaate, I don't smoke much anymore so it sat me right on my butt. Sat on the street looking out over the canal, listening to all these pissed poms screaming their heads off and one or two jumping in the channel (talk about dangerous to your health), having a chat with the local constabulary while totally smashed (really nice folk btw) was nice and mellow.

Anyway, sitting minding my own navel, when some serbian girl and her spanish friend start talking and bring out some mexican mushrooms, well, when in Amsterdam all this is legal (I remind the casual reader), so Davo decides why not. The coppers on the corner were laughing at me anyway.

Here in southern Australia we get the golden tops, and further north the blue meanies, but I have never experienced the whole world in a myriad of black and white tiles before after only 20 mins, PLUS, been able to walk around as well .. usually when that out of it on mushies I can't walk, but not this time.

moral? well there isn't one really :) But I do recommend if you go to Amsterdam go with someone ... walking around the streets by yourself totally out of it can be a bit freaky 8-) tho would go again in a heartbeat, aiming too toward the end of the year

[Duffy]

:) But I do recommend if you go to Amsterdam go with someone ...

Hi Davo, we were in Amsterdam last April and although hubby and I stayed away from the funny stuff (I know, big shock...is everyone sitting down????:D) we had a blast in that city. In our hotel we overhear a couple of america/japanese ladies saying they would like to see the red light light district but were too nervous going alone. I asked them if they wanted us to take them...well I haven't laughed so hard in all my life. These ladies stopped every poor soul that looked even a little different and asked them to pose for a photo with them. They didn't stop laughing and everyone was really patient with them. Even some of the girls in the windows that normally close the curtain to cameras, posed for them. We were invited to parties and clubs but the ladies were a little to wary for that...anyway we all had the BEST time there. What a great atmosphere...I reckon Aussies and the Dutch are pretty similiar. I highly recommend it too.

[balans]

Well last christmas I was working at an oil well in Indonesia, the christmas before I was working at an oil well in California. It tends to be just an other day in enviroments where lost time is measured in many thousands of dollars an hour.

However if I happen to be in Auckland I'll have a christmas lunch with family. I think that even for your run of the mill apathatic christian it isn't a particualrly christian celebration anymore, with the focus being more on food, family and presents. In my experience christmas trees, santa and tinsel tend to be more prevalent than nativty scenes in most homes.

[davo]

...anyway we all had the BEST time there. What a great atmosphere...I reckon Aussies and the Dutch are pretty similiar. I highly recommend it too.

Same, I found the people really great, and the city far advanced. Bikes come first, then pedestrians, then cars. I stayed in one of the backpackers in the middle of the red light district for the first week, but hooked up with some people squatting in the area after that, it was really great.

Of course after the first binge on 'that which your not allowed anywhere else' it loses it's interest. Funny enough the dutch have a lower rate of maijuana smokers than places like those that surround it, and the UK, canada, USA and Australia. This has repeatedly been brought up about the Netherlands, and as always 'the war on drugs' refuses to actually approach this fact. weird.

I would much prefer sitting in a party full of smokers than a party full of drinkers!

fe208nLLEwk

[davo]

awwww now that is awesome :) I LOVE dogs, they are the BEST people :)

http://www.dogster.com/dogs/398953

[Godless Ray]

Oh Protium,

That wasn't that drug sniffing dog from the airport you "borrowed" is it? seems very excited about something...:rolleyes:

Godless Ray

[balans]

Not another Kiwi?

Kia ora Bro. ChCh boy here :)
G'day

Yeah I'm another Kiwi, (there seems to be no shortage of us here in Perth). I grew up in Auckland and studied in ChCh.

[GUDLUSS]

G'day

Yeah I'm another Kiwi, (there seems to be no shortage of us here in Perth)..
That's strange, I would've thought Kiwis would mostly be in the Eastern states

[Fiery]

It seems that once they manage to extricate themselves from Kiwiland they flee as far from it as possible. ;)

[davo]

http://www.adultsheepfinder.com

[Fiery]

Looking for ...
1-on-1 sheep
discreet sheep
multiple sheep
"shaved" sheep

http://rynosseros.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/fiery_splorf.jpg

[GUDLUSS]

Um...
http://rynosseros.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/gudluss_splorf.jpg
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_lXUqBHPDEic/SbREreDeiuI/AAAAAAAAARI/k3UwPJiJdBI/SylarSplorffs.jpg

[Duffy]

My heart is racing...what if Elbert is a kiwi??? Please no gay sheep jokes guys...I don't have the time, I have to find a job...arhhhh!!

[balans]

http://www.adultsheepfinder.com

Wow, a sheep joke, the typically imaginative default Aussie response to anything Kiwi.

Similar in logic and originality to the typical Christian "god did it" response to anything that requires a bit of thought. I suppose it's not really your fault, it must be hard to shake off an attitude that has been indoctorinated in you from childhood.

[Fiery]

tsk tsk tsk Duffy. That's offensive to ummmm somebody and reveals your ... intolerance and insensitivity to a very real issue that of ummmmm.... sheep shaggers everywhere?

Something tells me we're both going to get our typing fingers smacked for this one.

Bad Duffy.
Bad Fiery.
*smack* *smack*

[davo]

Wow, a sheep joke, the typically imaginative default Aussie response to anything Kiwi.

Similar in logic and originality to the typical Christian "god did it" response to anything that requires a bit of thought. I suppose it's not really your fault, it must be hard to shake off an attitude that has been indoctorinated in you from childhood.

lol, whatever makes ewe feel more secure ;)

[Fiery]

Yep, we're equal opportunity offenders here.

Swearing bother you? We'll be sure to call your attention to every infraction.

Sheep jokes bother you? Baaaaaad forum. Baaaad!!!!

*snerk*

;) :D

[Duffy]

Oh I'm with you Mr Black, don't ya just hate activists with no sense of humour *yawn*

We can always find somebody to offend, but I dislike two things intensely:
Hypocrisy, and
Passive-aggression on the trumped-up grounds that something personal is actually group discrimination.

The two types of people that I hate....

Egomaniacs and anyone that thinks they are better than me!!!!

Fiery, you and me are going to be sent to the principles office again. But can you take the wrap this time? I gotta date wif me boyfriend tonight and don't want me mum to ground me. I'll owe you one :)

[balans]

Sheep jokes don't offend me, they just bore me. I'm surprised people are so touchy about the lack of originality of them being pointed out.

Would a retort about full facial kangaroo pouchalingus be more to your liking?

[davo]

Sheep jokes don't offend me, they just bore me. I'm surprised people are so touchy about the lack of originality of them being pointed out.

Would a retort about full facial kangaroo pouchalingus be more to your liking?

roflmao, seems like a touched a nerve with a simple post :)

not quite sure where it was me that got touchy! lol :D

Go for it, the more jokes the merrier as far as I am concerned :) All the kiwis I know are right into it as well, we have a ball hanging it on each other, it's part of what makes Australians and Kiwis so much better than the rest of the world :) but I suppose there are always exceptions ;)

[Duffy]

This is my low brow contribution....hehe


Why do so many Australian men suffer premature ejaculation? Because they have to rush back to the pub to tell their mates what happened!

[davo]

ROFLMAO!
What a ripper! HahaHaha! :) was wondering where you were going with that, then k-ching! Haha!! Lol!

[davo]

A Splork from TIMB means my work here is done :)


Mine go 'straight to the pool room' ;)

[eclectic]

Hi Davo, we were in Amsterdam last April and although hubby and I stayed away from the funny stuff (I know, big shock...is everyone sitting down????:D) we had a blast in that city. In our hotel we overhear a couple of america/japanese ladies saying they would like to see the red light light district but were too nervous going alone. I asked them if they wanted us to take them...well I haven't laughed so hard in all my life. These ladies stopped every poor soul that looked even a little different and asked them to pose for a photo with them. They didn't stop laughing and everyone was really patient with them. Even some of the girls in the windows that normally close the curtain to cameras, posed for them. We were invited to parties and clubs but the ladies were a little to wary for that...anyway we all had the BEST time there. What a great atmosphere...I reckon Aussies and the Dutch are pretty similiar. I highly recommend it too.

That's brilliant Duffy! Glad you enjoyed it. My silly brother didn't, because he is silly. I know he's not into the wacky-backy, but there are so many other wacky things to enjoy in that wonderful city!

[Duffy]

That's brilliant Duffy! Glad you enjoyed it. My silly brother didn't, because he is silly. I know he's not into the wacky-backy, but there are so many other wacky things to enjoy in that wonderful city!

For sure:p a vivid memory is of a gorgeous voluptuous dutch woman in a second story window (I love the European love of full figured women) calling down to the sailor boys. She reminded me of Mae West. There is no exploitation going on there, except if you want to feel sorry for the young inexperienced seaman.:D

[Godless Ray]

(I love the European love of full figured women)

Trust me here Duffy.. it's not just European men. I look like Homer Simpson lusting after an iced donut. (the one with extra sprinkles)
:p


Godless Ray

[Duffy]

Nigella Lawson is on my list of women I'd turn gay for.

[Vonnie]

I believe the camera is usually set to show Nigella's delicious "extra" pounds; her rounded, womanly body is a big part of her sexiness. We often get to see the "rolls" around the middle on her shows, and I like it!

Vonnie

PS: I do remember what it was like to be skinny. My hip bones banging against his hipbones wasn't much fun...

[GUDLUSS]

"-Shut up! The camera adds ten pounds!
-So how many cameras are actually on you?"
~Monica, Chandler

[alanqui]

Just getting back to "what do atheists do..." on occasions apart from xmas. What about St Patricks day, do Irish atheists celebrate or just use the date to piss up?

[GenericBox]

Irish or not. I at least use the date to piss up :) One of the few days of the year where you have a perfectly good excuse to binge drink and get completely maggot!

Wait... What is it really for anyway?

[GUDLUSS]

Well, see, there was this Irish guy named Patrick...

[Duffy]

Is it true St Pat wasn't Irish? I thought I heard that somewhere???

[alanqui]

Or Welsh or English, whatever the reference. And whatever the case, he was another one of those wankers that claimed to have seen the impossible. Perhaps he was pissed at the time.

[balans]

Famous for ridding Ireland of snakes. The fact that Ireland never had any snakes shouldn't detract from this achievement - because, you know he is a Saint and all that.

[eclectic]

One of the few days of the year where you have a perfectly good excuse to binge drink and get completely maggot!


:confused: I thought those days were called 'saturday'

but speaking of st paddies, Happy Green-Irish-Beer day everyone!

[DanDare]

My family has always celebrated both equinoxes with equal gusto. I prefer the winter one. I head of to the blue mountains in NSW and enjoy a lot of hot chocolate.

[GenericBox]

Woo, Sunshine Coast ftw.

Sorry, couldn't figure out how to get to that member's notes feature I was browsing once to write that in. So it ended up here.

[eclectic]

My family has always celebrated both equinoxes with equal gusto. I prefer the winter one. I head of to the blue mountains in NSW and enjoy a lot of hot chocolate.

you mean solstice? I like the equinox/solstice celebrations. They were the only ones I could get into when I was a pagan - the other (and supposedly more important) ones are just arbitrary dates, whereas these are physical events.

[DanDare]

you mean solstice? I like the equinox/solstice celebrations. They were the only ones I could get into when I was a pagan - the other (and supposedly more important) ones are just arbitrary dates, whereas these are physical events.
Yes solstice, sorry its been a long few days :o
We also do the equinoxes and any other celebration that we can secularize. (I think I just coined a new term).

[Godless Ray]

Maybe we should start an Anti-Christmas?

Where it is better to receive than give? We could go around just grabbing presents and stuff? Tis the season to be grumpy...,:D

[Cosmic Teapot]

Hello my godless colleagues,

I recently had my first child so questions of parenthood tend to occupy an inordinate amount of my brain space at the moment. One thing that is bothering me is the question of whether it's ethical to perpetuate the Santa lie or adopt a policy of truth when raising my little one. Seperate from the ethical question, I can't help feeling that Santa is just "Yahweh for Beginners" and sets out a nice little void in their minds ready for the first theist to come along and fill with rubbish. If you examine the concepts of Santa and God, the former appears to be the latter with training wheels. Both are beings that can't be perceived, both can be appealed to and both offer a reward for "good" behaviour. Am I being overly cautious? If I tell him Santa doesn't exist from the start, am I destroying part of his childhood?
On the topic of ethics, what message am I sending him by lying to him. Isn't that almost as bad as smacking as punishment? If he's meant to use me as a role model, shouldn't I conduct myself as ethically as possible?

I'm eager to hear your opinions.

Warm regards,

Cosmic Teapot

[Fearless]

Very good topic... I have never thought about it and will probably face the same question some time in the near future. Wow... my first real challenge in rite and rongs.

In my opinion kids have amazing imaginations and I don't think it hurts to play the game for the sake of not alienating him/her from others.

I had a gf years ago whos 9 year old daughter wanted to keep believing even though she was getting teased for it at school because some kids parents had spilled the beans about the jolly old fat man. As long as it is in fun I don't think playing with ficticious characters in their minds is harmful. One day they will ask the logical question I guess. Kids need to explore their imaginations and have fun growing up, just when they are mature enough hopefully the truth wont be hard to deal with if you haven't left them totally dependant on a belief that it is real!

Easter and its implications is a whole other kettle of fish though he he.

I busted my parents wrapping presents at 3am one xmas as a kid and felt cheated but I laugh about it now.

I will be interested to see what others think too.... but basically I say, let kids be kids!

Edit: I would never lie to a child about 'Santa'. If I was asked if he existed I would probably reply with "Do you think he exists?" and take it from there.

[davo]

yea I also reckon this is a great topic. nice one.

I would go with Fearless on this, whereas it is not correct to perpetuate the myth, I would not directly attack it with a youngster. I would support them in what they want to believe so long as it is not harmful for them. I found with a past girlfriends kid, the same thing, he wanted to believe as all his mates did. I did point out how coke commercialised the concept of santa, how the whole christmas thing is a farce, but never outright pushed the fact santa does not exist on him, he came to that conclusion himself, when he was ready.

The kid usually grows to work out for themselves the non-existance in their own time, then all you can be is supportive and admire them for doing so. Pointing out that their critical thinking is a good thing, and that they are indeed correct.

Kids given the avenue to critically think find the same thing with religion. In this instance his nan was a firm believer, and we always left it up to him as to what he believed, being clear why we didn't. We brought him up at the time as a vegan, but he always had choice, it was up to him. He'd go to kids parties and eat all sorts of things, I couldn't care less really. Unfortunately his mother died when he was around 9, and ended up living with his nan, going to a religious school.

Now, being 13, he eats meat, but doesn't believe in santa or a god, on his own merits. He has come to me as he does over teachers at the school being full on about religion, and all I can do is support him emotionally, as I don't have a say not being guardian.

All in all, he for the most part laughs at them, and is frustrated in adults ignoring information that contravenes their belief. I had to laugh when he by way of explaining how the teachers deal with him asking questions, he put his fingers in his ears and went 'LA LAA LAA LAAAA! LA LAAA LAA LAAAAA!'

they pick up the reality pretty quick.

[wolty]

Ok Here goes.
Santa is for christmas. I don't believe in god so I have some problems with christmas.
The way I look at it and tell all my relations my view, I give presents because it is as good a time as any to appreciate their lives with mine.
I also give presents at easter (not eggs) because I am just a giving person and I like to make people feel special.My relations know my views and if they don't, it doesn't really bother me.
My kids were all brought up with an idea about santa that was neither encouraged nor discouraged. My ex and I started with the santa bag that was quite redundant by the time they reached the ages of 5 or 6. They all have similar views as mine and I don't think I have upset them by not getting into the whole christ and christmas thingy. I always stress that the gift is for them as a way of me saying they are special.

[youngmoigle]

On the topic of ethics, what message am I sending him by lying to him.


You'll be lying to him every time you read a bedtime story. ;)

When he's old enough, he'll forgive you.

[davo]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Teapot http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?p=21637#post21637)
On the topic of ethics, what message am I sending him by lying to him.


coz youngmoigle answered, and it's probably the crux of the issue .. (as he is won't to always get straight too ..)

yes, it is a lie, telling a kid santa exists, but it's also a lesson, just a long one.

1/ people give because they love.

2/ never trust an adult with a story about some fairy that does good stuff, usually it doesn't hold up under scrutiny. check out the facts for yourself.

;)

[Atrax Robustus]

Yep it's a lie.

IMHO, kids also deserve the opportunity to experience 'magic' and fantasy. Is there any harm? I don't think so - but that's based on my experience only. Let's face it, I think the Santa affect on xmas morning is as much a buzz for the parents as it is for the kids!

When the time comes, they might be disappointed, but there is also a lesson here. The lesson I learned was that wondrous supernatural beings don't really exist and any assertion that they do should be treated with scepticism. When the time came for my kids, it was an opportunity to introduce the concept of rational thinking to them.

[tandytripper]

Hello my godless colleagues,

I recently had my first child so questions of parenthood tend to occupy an inordinate amount of my brain space at the moment. One thing that is bothering me is the question of whether it's ethical to perpetuate the Santa lie or adopt a policy of truth when raising my little one. Seperate from the ethical question, I can't help feeling that Santa is just "Yahweh for Beginners" and sets out a nice little void in their minds ready for the first theist to come along and fill with rubbish. If you examine the concepts of Santa and God, the former appears to be the latter with training wheels. Both are beings that can't be perceived, both can be appealed to and both offer a reward for "good" behaviour. Am I being overly cautious? If I tell him Santa doesn't exist from the start, am I destroying part of his childhood?
On the topic of ethics, what message am I sending him by lying to him. Isn't that almost as bad as smacking as punishment? If he's meant to use me as a role model, shouldn't I conduct myself as ethically as possible?

I'm eager to hear your opinions.

Warm regards,

Cosmic Teapot

Well, I didn't do the lie and when my oldest asked about god/jesus, I sort of killed the santa bird to with the same stone. Entertaining stories and all but as real as any Disney classic. :cool: They don't miss out though on getting stuff, but we just don't set aside certain commercialised days on which to give them stuff.

It is like my partner and I not "doing" Valentines Day either. WHY do we need specific days set to show people they are loved and appreciated?

[SinisterDexter]

Well, with my family, trying to stop christmas is like trying to part the waters of the Red Sea (ie - impossible, for any Christians reading).

I don't see a problem with it, necessarily, although I will probably take Fearless and davo's ideas of not specifically stating the fiction, but not confirming it either and letting my son form his own opinions (he already has strong opinions regarding the times he feels he should be awake, so I'm sure he'll form opinions on Santa too).

But what I will not do is condone the religious aspects of christmas. To me it will be "christmyth" and the special part of the day will be in spending time with those people we love.

[Atrax Robustus]

Anecdote.

When no#2 came home (about 6-7 if I recall correctly) with the initial seeds of doubt I simply advised him that "Santa will always exist as long as there is one person in the world who believes in him - that's how his magic really works."

I was a proud ol atheist Dad when, after a few minutes of reflection he then asked me " . . . then . . . that means that god will disappear if no-one believes in him?"

[Cosmic Teapot]

Salutations assembled godless,


Continuing with what I hope to be an ongoing series of threads, I seek your opionions on how to tackle Christmas and Easter when raising your free thinking bundle of joy. I wanted to make this distinct from my Santa thread (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=1699) as this thread is about the overtly christian themes in Christmas and Easter as opposed to the character of Santa (a debatably secular construct) and the ethics of the Santa Lie.

In this thread, I'd like to know if you celebrate Christmas and Easter with your little one and how you deal with the religious context these holidays present.
I grew up in a religious void so these holidays always confused me, mainly because of Santa, the Easter Bunny and chocolate eggs, none of which seemed congruent with the religious aspects. While watching movies about some guy dying on a cross and trying to figure out how a bunny delivering chocolate eggs figures into the story (I also wondered why Jesus sometimes wore a red suit and delivered presents under another name), it never occured to me that there were really two different events happening, one holiday being superimposed upon another. Of couse, I'm referring to the pre-existing holidays that the early chuch commandeered to make it easier for the pagans to convert. In reality, the gifts and eggs are the remanants of those older holidays, which is what I tell the smartarse theists who accuse me of hypocrisy. Strangely, the fact that I'm not a pagan either has never come up. ;)
The question is, do I let my child flounder in the same sea of confusion I did? If I'm going to tell him about the christian aspect, what should I tell him? Bear in mind that most of my close friends are theists of varying strength of conviction and they also have children of around the same age. While my friends are pretty good at keeping their faith to themselves (we NEVER talk religion), I can see friction occuring if my kid is telling their kids that the guy on the cross never really existed.

A penny for your thoughts.

Warn Regards,

Cosmic Teapot

[Cosmic Teapot]

Thank you all for your insightful replies and good advice.
I'll try to respond to the best of my abilities. Please note that I have started a seperate thread (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=1706) to address the christian aspects of Christmas and Easter as I see Santa as a secular character and not an overtly christian symbol. If you would like to express your opinion or advice regarding the christian symbolism in Christmas and Easter and what to tell children, please feel free to do so in the other thread.


My kids were all brought up with an idea about santa that was neither encouraged nor discouraged.
How very agnostic of you. ;)
Correct me if I'm wrong but I read that to mean that you allowed someone else to perpetuate the Santa lie (media, family, friends) and you neither confirmed or denied it.
If you told the lie yourself, wouldn't that be encouragement?
I would also like to hear your thoughts on the "Yahweh with training wheels" view of Santa. You, like most respondants so far, look upon Santa as very benign, whereas I sense more than a little "God grooming" going on.

You'll be lying to him every time you read a bedtime story. ;)
Did you ever try to represent the characters in a bedtime story as existing in the real world?
Bedtime stories don't begin "There are three little pigs who live on the outskirts of Melbourne..." but we tell kids that Santa is a real person and he even lives in a real place (North Pole).


When the time comes, they might be disappointed, but there is also a lesson here. The lesson I learned was that wondrous supernatural beings don't really exist and any assertion that they do should be treated with scepticism. When the time came for my kids, it was an opportunity to introduce the concept of rational thinking to them.
Brilliant!
If Santa is Yahweh in disguise, it makes sense to point out why Santa can't exist so they can later apply the same reasoning to Yahweh.
Best answer so far. Thanks Atrax.


It is like my partner and I not "doing" Valentines Day either. WHY do we need specific days set to show people they are loved and appreciated?
I've been saying this to my wife for years, to no avail.
You win this round, Hallmark.


I was a proud ol atheist Dad when, after a few minutes of reflection he then asked me " . . . then . . . that means that god will disappear if no-one believes in him?"
LOL. Classic.
Go to a bookstore and buy him a copy of Small Gods by Terry Pratchett.
After he's read that, buy him all the other Discworld books.

[wolty]

How very agnostic of you. ;)
Correct me if I'm wrong but I read that to mean that you allowed someone else to perpetuate the Santa lie (media, family, friends) and you neither confirmed or denied it.
If you told the lie yourself, wouldn't that be encouragement?
I would also like to hear your thoughts on the "Yahweh with training wheels" view of Santa. You, like most respondants so far, look upon Santa as very benign, whereas I sense more than a little "God grooming" going on.

It is very hard not to let others (media,family) not perpetuate the myth.
If I was asked I would deny the myth and explain it to the best of my ability. Remember we are talking about very young children here and they just don't ask questions like that until they are over a certain age.
By that age they are ready to accept that not is all as it seems and begin to question aspects of life which is a perfect time to encourage them to question everything.
The thing with Yahweh with training wheels is agreed with although you have to remember that santa at 3 or 4 years old is a completly different proposition as god is to a 10 year old, just when the 10 year old is starting to find their place in the world. I think this is much more insidious and a 10 year old is much more easily influenced by that particular fantasy. As long as not too much emphasis is placed onto santa at a young age then we get a 10 year old that hopefully willl be able to begin to distinguish fantasy from reality.

[SinisterDexter]

It seems to me that you need to discuss religion with kids to avoid them falling for it. But you don't discuss it in the same uncritical and one dimensional way that theists do, you discuss all of it, critically, and invite them to see the inconsistencies, contradictions and problems inherent in competing religious systems that all claim special "truth".

As far as Christmyth and Eostre go there is plenty of ammunition. Both are pagan in origin, both have become much more secular in nature and the stories they explain in the christian mythology are brutal and/or ridiculous.

I think their christian meaning is easily subverted.

[Godless Ray]

Cosmic,

Do kids really give a damn? Easter is annual chocolate egg day and Christmas the day of the gifts. It must be a very low percentage that give it any real connection with anything religious? even amongst some religious families.

Godless Ray

[TimB]

Hello Cosmic,

I reckon research all you can on the origins of xmas and Easter and educate your kids all you can (arm them with reality!) so they can recognise the bulldust some of their religious friend might sprout. The secular seasons website reckons quite a few ancient pagan mediterranean religions that had stories about man-gods being born of virgins then being killed and coming back to life around the time of the vernal equinox (spring equinox in northern hemisphere). Mmmmm that's Easter sound familar.

Check out their website for some good ideas for secular holidays and the origins of others.

www.secularseasons.org (http://www.secularseasons.org)

There is no reason why non-religious people shouldn't enjoy season holidays especially christmas where people display alot of humanistic qualities. Apart from the name, in reality it's just not that christian - you put up a tree and wack some decorations on it (pagan), and, succumb to some basic human impulses like being nice to others just cos it's a nice thing to do (how humanist).

[NakedApe]

Cosmic,

Do kids really give a damn? Easter is annual chocolate egg day and Christmas the day of the gifts. It must be a very low percentage that give it any real connection with anything religious? even amongst some religious families.

Godless Ray

Yeah. I don't have any kids (yet) so I'm no expert, but I remember my own childhood experiences with Easter and Christmas. I couldn't have cared less about Jesus or about adults dressing up as rabbits or a jolly fat man in a red suit. That was all "adult stuff" and as any child knows, adults are weird. Just gimme the presents and yummy chocolate eggs!!!

[KeithW]

You always know when it's Christmas because the Easter Eggs are in the shops.

[youngmoigle]

Cosmic Teapot wrote:
Did you ever try to represent the characters in a bedtime story as existing in the real world?
Bedtime stories don't begin "There are three little pigs who live on the outskirts of Melbourne..." but we tell kids that Santa is a real person and he even lives in a real place (North Pole).

I think I may have misunderstood your question.

All I meant was that "fairytale" lies are no big deal for children. They love the stories for as long as they believe in them --- and they even get a bonus when the penny finally drops and they realise that the stories weren't true. It makes them feel clever and all "grown-up".

[SchizoDeluxe]

I think it's ok with kids when they are young, let them believe what they want to believe as they have to form their own thoughts. I guess it would be like the imaginary friend that we all had. It's ok for a while but eventually you have to face reality when you get older.

[TimB]

Ok here's my 2c worth.

- The Santa thing is the perfect training ground for teaching critical thinking and a bit of skeptical enquiry. Help kids work it out for themselves that Santa is not real. A good training oportunity for being able to work out that god is not real later on and for questioning those annoying evangelising kids you always get in schools.

- Imaginative play is healthy in children.

- If they ask a direct question "Is Santa real?", don't ever lie but maybe help them ask the right questions so they can work out for themselves santa is not real. "Does it sound right to you that Santa could get around the whole world in one night?"

- Once they've worked out that their presents don't come from Santa but rather the people around them maybe it'll help them see that you can still have all the fun and excitement you want when you open presents, only now you have real people to thank ;) and you can see that it's real people that make the good stuff happen not imaginery beings.

Sorry for the clumbsy way of putting what's in my head :o.

[eclectic]

and my 2c worth.

I believe in fantasy for children, but I like your way of thinking, it is a very interesting idea about a trainer-god and I will consider it further. However, personal experience has put me off santa (isn't that an american term? we always had 'father christmas') specifically.

I learnt the truth when I was 9. I had been told by kids at school that FC was your parents, and I had argued black and blue that they were WRONG. My ludicrously honest mother (she really is LUDICROUSLY honest, keep an opinion to yourself occasionally woman! anywho, that's another story) would never lie to me. Then one day I suddenly twigged - I got less pocket money than my friends AND less tooth-fairy money (yep, late learner, I was TRUSTING)... I confronted my mother, I said "are you the tooth-fairy?!" she confessed that she was. I ran off in a fit of temper... to return "and the easter-bunny & father-christmas?!"... yes, she was all of them. I was FURIOUS. She had LIED to me for years. It wasn't like fairytales that were told as fantasy, a huge deception was involved. I'd already figured out that FC wasn't magic, and that indeed there must be about one per suburb who had keys to the houses - not everyone has chimneys. So I was logical about it, I just could not accept until the evidence proved otherwise that my parents would LIE to me. If my mother hadn't been so stingy, I might never have found out the truth!

Anyway, for me the transition was DEVASTATING. But I was a dramatic kid. Still am a dramatic adult I guess. And obsessed with honesty. And as a child at least took things a bit literally.

I'm really torn what to do with our future children. I don't know if I'm physically capable of lying anyway (I'm nearly as bad as my mother), I don't want them to feel as I did, but I don't want them being too weird compared to the other kids and left out of the game. I also have issues with the commercial nature of 'santa' so if we do go with it, our poor sods will probably have a 'woodland sprite' or some such hippy nonesense... or perhaps a local Australian version? We aren't from the icy lands of santa anyway...

[eclectic]

Yeah. I don't have any kids (yet) so I'm no expert, but I remember my own childhood experiences with Easter and Christmas. I couldn't have cared less about Jesus or about adults dressing up as rabbits or a jolly fat man in a red suit. That was all "adult stuff" and as any child knows, adults are weird. Just gimme the presents and yummy chocolate eggs!!!

Well I was a devout little christian because I was told it was the truth - even though my parents didn't push it at all, in fact my father was an atheist. I used to remind my family what christmas was REALLY about and think they were naughty for forgetting. I was a very serious little child though.

My ma is now atheist, but believes in christmas as a cultural festival of families getting together, and my mother-in-law is catholic. Once we have kids hubby and I will host christmas as a family get-together and gift-giving... with decorations and traditions. We will explain to them the religious meaning of the holiday and the different cultural traditions associated with it (such as all the pagan elements, and the capitalist ones) but that we don't believe in it ourselves (and that we are celebrating because we love our mothers). We will no doubt visit the mothers at easter too for the family get-together and chocolate festival.

We will also continue to host our themed parties with friends and neighbours at other times of year, perhaps on pagan festivals. They will be the really fun celebrations! :) Themes will be about fun & history & culture, not imaginary beings.

I will try to teach our children that it can be not nice to tell other children that their beliefs are phoney, and to be gentle.

A query... are all your religious friends christian? how would a christian parent feel about say, a hindu child telling their children that there are many gods and that they have animal heads and that jesus is unimportant? how is that issue resolved?

[davo]

I'm really torn what to do with our future children. I don't know if I'm physically capable of lying anyway (I'm nearly as bad as my mother), I don't want them to feel as I did, but I don't want them being too weird compared to the other kids and left out of the game. I also have issues with the commercial nature of 'santa' so if we do go with it, our poor sods will probably have a 'woodland sprite' or some such hippy nonesense... or perhaps a local Australian version? We aren't from the icy lands of santa anyway...

I knew someone that had the Christmas dragon .. it doesn't work, it's hard, and you have to explain why the other kids all believe in FC, while your putting forward a different concept again. how good are you at lying? :P

[Unsacred Cow]

Hi Cosmic and all,

I’m not going to tell you what I think you should do in regard to the Santa fantasy. There are already, in my opinion, way too many experts when it comes to raising children. I will share what we did and the outcome so that you are perhaps left with some info to help you make your own decision.
My experience with the Santa fantasy coming to an (abrupt) end is reasonably new...our eldest was informed by a fellow student that Santa, the tooth fairy and Easter bunny weren’t real just last year...yes this informant blew it for the whole class, the whole lot of ‘em in one foul swoop. On this day when I picked the child up from school, the first thing I was asked was, “I want you to tell me the truth (there was a definite pissed off tone to it I might add), have you and dad been lying to me about Santa, etc?” I was a little taken aback. My partner and I had deliberated also about whether we would perpetuate this fantasy and had decided we would but I wasn’t quite prepared for such a backlash. Of course, I fessed up. We shared a discussion about it. I asked if they (the child) had enjoyed the game. Yes was the answer. In the end the child was actually more upset to find that the fantasy was infact just that...fantasy. (It actually parallels my reaction when I decided I didn’t believe in god anymore). We did the whole bit….cookies and milk left for Santa, bunny tracks in the sand pit, egg hunts, money left in exchange for teeth (apparently inflation applies to this action by the way so be warned). We have a younger child as well who is only just getting to the age of appreciating such games. The older child is now quite keen and excited to perpetuate the fantasy for the younger sibling now. Have we done the right thing? I don’t really know. Unfortunately, when it comes to parenting, that question is a constant. All I can say is, try to relax and enjoy the adventure that is children the best way you can.

[Fearless]

I was a Youth Worker years ago and I did a stint in a child protection safe house. There was a seven year old boy I was looking after and one night his tooth popped out... as they do. I went into his bedroom to start waking him up in the morning to go to school when I remembered the tooth and to my horror there was a glass of water beside the bed with the tooth in it... fast thinking had me rummaging through my pockets only to find a $2 coin... given I am not a tight arse and had no idea what the going rate for the tooth fairy was I stole the tooth and dropped a $2 in the glass.
About 20 mins later he stormed through the kitchen in a rage... asking what what was wrong it was explained to me. "F**king tooth fairy gave me $5 under my pillow last year, all i got was $2 last night." Seems like the standard inflation rate for teeth has sky rocketed since I was a kid! I thought $2 was too rich!

[Vonnie]

I don't have any problem with Santa. Xmas is, after all, "Santa's Birthday" in our house! ;) (Once the youngest no longer thinks Santa is real, Xmas will officially become Festivus in our home.)

AFAIC, Santa is just another fairy tale, like fairies under the mushrooms. When I "found out" about Santa as a child, I didn't feel ripped off. When my eldest asked me if Santa was real, I didn't say yes or no, instead I responded to her question with the question "What do you think?" The first couple of times, she said that she thought Santa was real.

The last time she asked me I responded with my usual question, and that time she said she didn't think Santa was real. So, then I let her in on the "trick" that almost all parents play on their children to make Xmas "fun". And it does make Xmas fun. Leaving food out for Santa and the reindeer, trying so hard to stay up to catch a peek of Santa, the joy of finding the stocking stuffed with presents from Santa (or whatever your particular family custom is)...

She plays the game for her younger sister. Neither of my girls believe in doG. Not because I've told them not to, but because when we discuss religion and god/s, I always ask them "What do you think?" And "Does it make sense to you?", etc.

Young children can easily compartmentalise though. While my 6 year old believes whole-heartedly in Santa (for now...), she can't believe that anyone would actually be so stupid as to believe that there's a man who lives in the sky who rewards you when you die if you were good when alive, and punishes you if you were bad when you were alive - a man that nobody has ever seen or spoken to...

So, I'm in the "let kids be kids" and enjoy fantasy. Let them compartmentalise. They learn to reason very quickly. And if a child does end up feeling "lied to", I don't think the parent/s handled the matter very well!

Just my 2 cents!

Vonnie

[Vonnie]

About 20 mins later he stormed through the kitchen in a rage... asking what what was wrong it was explained to me. "F**king tooth fairy gave me $5 under my pillow last year, all i got was $2 last night." Seems like the standard inflation rate for teeth has sky rocketed since I was a kid! I thought $2 was too rich!

Bloody hell - $5 bucks?! $2 (and a bit of glitter...) is the going rate in my house!

Vonnie

[Vonnie]

I will try to teach our children that it can be not nice to tell other children that their beliefs are phoney, and to be gentle.

I think this is an important point, and one I impress upon my children. They are free to discuss their beliefs with their primary-school-aged peers, but I have discussed with my children that I feel they should - at this age and stage of their lives! - be respectful of others beliefs because religion can be a VERY touchy subject.

They are aware that most wars have been fought because of religion, and that it's not worth starting a mini-war with their friends, teachers or whoever at this stage. (There's plenty of time for that when they are "of age"! :))

However, because my oldest daughter (10 years old) is open about her beliefs (or lack thereof!) with her friends, and she has opted out of RE, some of her friends have actually thought about doG and religion for themselves, and have requested that their parents opt them out of RE too! So far, the parents of only one of her friends have conceded, but it's a start! (And the others still invite her over to their houses - the parents haven't ostracised her! :) )

But, back to the question at hand... I treat Easter Bunny just like Santa.

"Mummy, is Easter Bunny real?"

"What do you think?"

One day, they work it out for themselves. In the meantime, they get to enjoy the fantasy of early childhood.

As for the religious connotations... I explained to my children something along the lines of:

"Christians believe that Jesus was God's son and that God sent him to earth to die on the cross so that everyone's sins could be forgiven. They believe that he died for 3 days then came alive again and went to live with God in heaven."

Inevitably, the questions, mostly rhetorical, are "What kind of a father would make his son die!?" and "How can someone's sins be forgiven if someone else is killed?", etc, etc.

Vonnie

[eclectic]

I knew someone that had the Christmas dragon .. it doesn't work, it's hard, and you have to explain why the other kids all believe in FC, while your putting forward a different concept again. how good are you at lying? :P

yeah, good point. Well that much is decided - no hippy version. Still to decide whether to FC or not.

Unsacred Cow, it was good to hear of another outraged child. I have never heard another before, everyone else seemed to just gently come to the realisation that it was make-believe. And these stories have reminded me that afterwards I did then enjoy keeping up the game for my little brother, and was horrified when other kids told him it wasn't real. He was a normal child who just slowly got over the whole idea though so it didn't bother him in the slightest.

A 'muslim' (atheist really) friend of ours thinks FC is RIDICULOUS. He said "we don't lie to our children"... when we questioned that (ie. that they lie about god) he said "well we don't tell them lies that we don't believe". So to someone who grew up without FC it is an absolutely LOONY idea. (However, this particular friend is a rather volatile and unfriendly sod, so I wouldn't necessarily suggest raising children who turn out like him. :P)

[SinisterDexter]

Eran Segev had an excellent segment on just this topic in this week's Skeptic Zone podcast. I highly recommend trying to catch a listen to it.

[Cosmic Teapot]

Excellent answers from everone. Based on said answers I've decided to let society do the dirty deed and perpetuate the lie for me. After all, if I'd decided not to have him know about Father Christmas, my main problem would've been how to stop him finding out from his family, friends and the media.
When he asks about the truth, I can then use the opportunity to teach him about rational thought and reasoning. That way even if FC is Yahweh for beginners, I've still used the situation to my (and his) advantage.
He gets the be a kid and believe the fantastic and when the time comes, he learns how to use the power of his intellect to uncover bullshit.

Thank you to all who participated.

[senectus]

I have a 20 month old boy and this will be his second Christmas, but probably the first where he'll have some awareness of what is happening (ie getting presents and all the other stuff kids get excited about).

I've never really enjoyed or gotten into the whole "Christmas Spirit" thing, nor the marketing to consumers that seems to be the real focus of this religious holiday.

I dont want my boy to be one of those sugar hyped kids that just wants more and more toys.
But I don't want him to be ostracised by any other children just because his parents "dont do Christmas".

So we're going to put up a small tree, mostly because he loves pretty lights and has a thing for "stars" at the moment.

And he will get a few presents from us, and smothered in toys from his grandparents (we wont begrudge them that right), but so far we're not doing the whole "Father Christmas" thing.

I wondering how far we can take this before "society" tells him he's so different he's an outcast... :-( its going to be a fine line I think.
Do any of you guys have kids?

How do you deal with this supremely silly season?

[robertkd]

Well we used to do the "giving tree" thing years ago for the last 15 years we don't even do decorations.

You can still give those you want a gift be it symbolic if you feel it's desired, we tend to consider it a time when we as a family can get together with no/minimal distractions, otherwise it's simply another day,... :D

[TimB]

I like xmas because it's one of the few times in the year when the family gets together and we usually have a good time.

I reckon there is no need to get sucked into the consumerism side - we often buy people (granted not the kids who usually get toys of some sort and books) pigs, goats, etc from an CARE Australia or Oxfam catalogue. My 3 year old thinks its a great idea, he is very empathetic for a young kid and seems to get the concept.

The consumerism side bugs me but decorating the pagan tree in the corner of the living room is fun (especially when I remember the origins of the "christmas" tree).

It doesn't bother me, as an atheist, that christmas day is a christian holiday. Humans in europe where having celebrations at this time of year (eg winter solstice) long before christians invented christmas day.

I'd like to see more public holidays based around the seasons - I think generally celebrations are good for communities (but to involve the whole of society I think we need more secular based holidays). Seasonal celebrations can be a chance to teach kids (and adults) about being in touch with how the natural world works (have solstice parties!!) and a reminder to show a bit of good will to your fellow bits of star dust (religions don't own the whole be good to your fellow man or whatever thing - it's a good idea that is a product of evolution).

Be a happy secure atheist - wish everyone you see a happy southern summer solstice!! My 2c worth.

[atheist_angel]

And he will get a few presents from us, and smothered in toys from his grandparents (we wont begrudge them that right), but so far we're not doing the whole "Father Christmas" thing.
I must commend you for not doing the Father Christmas thing.

When I was a child, I had some Christian guardians on and off. They desperately tried to get me to believe in Santa.

I kept pointing out the evidence for why he couldn't be real. Same hand writing on tags and same giftwrap paper as presents from family members. Also multiple Santas in store at once. Santa looks different every year, and so on. They always gave a logical explanation along with a guilt trip of "you're not calling us liars are you?" Sometime between ages 8 and 10, I finally came to wholeheartedly believe in Santa.

(After all, the whole world couldn't be telling the same lie, could they? No, of course not. That would be one elaborate hoax! And why would anyone do such a thing as that?) I was 14 before I realized I had been duped! For what was the point of duping me? (So businesses could make a tidy profit off of mindf*c*ing children!?! - - Yep!) Deprogramming the belief took longer. :rolleyes:

I did, however, accept the Tooth Fairy straightaway. But, I accidentally tested the theory when it didn't occur to me to keep telling my parents or guardians about loosing more of my teeth. I put a tooth under my pillow every night for months! Never did get my shiny 50cents. :mad:

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

I do not have any children but when I was young I experienced similar stuff. Basically my parents being Islamoholics never celebrated Christmas and of course I never got any presents.

My advice, given my experiences, is not to bother with the toys and stuff. Don't worry about him being ostracised.

The reason I am saying this is because there are many children who never get Christmas and your son can mention this whenever necessary in the lines of "Well at least I'm not a spoilt brat like you lot" kind of thing.

From what I understand Christians did not invent Christmas day. They hijacked it and used it to their advantage.

[robertkd]

@Croc

Yes xian's used to celebrate many of their days but moved them to coincide with pagan and other celebrations in early times 1st, 2nd and 3rd century AD so as not to to stand out. Xian's weren't openly accepted indeed early xians were victimised and persecuted by romans until Constantine turned the tables on embraced and enshrined christianity as core to the Roman's early 4c AD. It' been down hill from that point in time for free thinkers and the rise and rise of what was to become the holy roman catholic church,... and is also the time the the cross become the symbol used on the shields there is a story about that as well.

As for solstice holidays and other celebrations yes great idea.

[deesl4e]

We do the xmas thing of tree and pressies solely for the kids. They love it and there are strictly no religious overtones.
Last week I think it was my 7 year old who has previously declared that he and his ittle mate don't believe in god nearly forced me off the road whilst driving him home from school.
" Dad do you know what town he god myth comes from? "
" no "
" Bethlehem "
" okay " quietly chuckling to myself
" Dad do you know why old people believe in god? "
" No "
" So that they feel comfortable before they die "
by this stage I'm nearly driving off the road. Anyway latr that evening the 12 year old is writing a note to santa. ( ofcourse he is over the santa bit but does it so he can suck his mum into an extra pressie ). I said to him that there is no such thing which I was directing at the 7 year old.
7 year old pipes up
" we are just kids dad so we are allowed to use our imagination when we want. Santa isn't god so you don't have to worry."
I just stood there utterly defeated.

[TimB]

deesl4e
Nice story.

I reckon the santa thing is a good oportunity for teaching your kids about human myths. Let them work it out for themselves that santa ain't real. No need to lie, just go along with it when they're young then answer their questions truthfully when they are old enough to ask. Might help set them up for questioning the big myth :rolleyes:. Imagination is good for kids and so is being able to work out what's real and what isn't.

[Ford]

I believe in Santa! Every year for as long as I can remember 'he' has dropped off at least one (sometimes inappropriate but always with love) present, so why wouldn't I believe? :p

And I'd say there's infinitly more evidence for the existence of Santa than for the other Christ-myth! :D

[Loki]

The Yule festival existed long before xtians stole it. Its a time for family and friends and showing you appreciate them. I have no problem participating in this. Relatives outside immediate family can cause trouble but that's their problem.

[SchizoDeluxe]

Even though Christmas has the religion thing attached to it (despite it being stolen from a pagan celebration) the whole christmas event doesn't really seem that religious, what with flying deer, fat old men in red jump suits and trees decorated in multi-colored tinsel and balls. It's almost as wierd as chocolate covered bunnies in easter. I think the real issue is how in the hell did all of these things ever come together as a holiday? (don't answer that, it's a sarcastic curiosity). I never really saw it as a religious holiday as a kid, it was simply about family gatherings and presents.

[senectus]

Yes but I object to both aspects of this annual event.

I don't subscribe to the religious aspect nor the mass marketed consumer aspect.

[Atrax Robustus]

Yes but I object to both aspects of this annual event.

I don't subscribe to the religious aspect nor the mass marketed consumer aspect.

See you in the office on the 25th then will we? :D

[Vonnie]

Here's a couple of links to previous discussions on this, with some interesting posts:

http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=1699

http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=1706

[senectus]

See you in the office on the 25th then will we? :D

No, but it wouldn't be the first time I've worked on the day... I'm in IT, so I don't need to be in the office to work, and I've been on call 24/7 for the past 8 years +
:-P

[AWarGuy]

As a 14 year old atheist im not bothered by Christmas and for me its a time of giving, eg the presents parts are just kindness and i happen to live in the street with THE BEST Christmas light (im not being overconfident) in Victoria.

*cough* balmoral court* cough
well actually my house overlooks the court so i dont live in the street...
Huge party last year on the streets 200+.

Oh and we dont put up Christmas decorations my dad is too lazy...

@deesl4e

my dad use the "when you about to die, you would like to think there is a god" argument AGAINST me once.

I said one day " i dont believe in santa claus, i still get presents rigghht?"
and of course i am....

[Ectes]

Yo

We all know Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny*, The Toothfairy, The Boogeyman and all those other kids tales to be all kinds of fictional.

Have any of you actually told your kids that these tales are fictional?

I'm just curious. I once told some friends that I would not let any kids of mine grow up to believe in those things, thinking the truth to be better for maturing that stories.

Am I misguided? On the right track?

Not that I have or, for the time being, want kids, but preparation is always handy.

*What this has to do with the xtian Easter tale has always made me furrow my brows in confusion.

[Fromm_Nicht]

My fiancee's parents never told her or her sisters any of those stories and nor shall we when we have a child, they encourage belief in supernatural nonsense and serve only to disappoint the child when they learn the truth.

[wearestardust]

My fiancee's parents never told her or her sisters any of those stories and nor shall we when we have a child, they encourage belief in supernatural nonsense and serve only to disappoint the child when they learn the truth.

I suspect you may be excessively concerned.

Most kids twig pretty sharpish that it is all myth. If you want to be concerned about something, then you should be concerned about them learning that if they keep quiest about having rumbled the truth, then the eggs and presents or whathaveyou will keep coming (I'm nearly 45 and it still works for me).

But frankly I wouldn't be too worried about that either.

For what it is worth, by the way, many xians don't tell their kids about santa etc because of concern that when they discover they are not real, they might start doubting Jesus as well.

[Dane]

I don't think it's of any concern. I grew up with Santa and the Easter Bilby. I didn't really care if they were real or not, I still got stuff. Just something a bit magical and fun. I wouldn't encourage belief in them if they ask, though. I'd encourage them to think about it and ask what they think.

I don't see it as anything dangerous or encouraging superstition. Kids grow out of Santa because it's not continually enforced to be the truth. You have nothing to worry about unless you start insisting they're real despite the child's reasoning.


I certainly wasn't disappointed. It was of no consequence.

[wearestardust]

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1299/santy.html

[nari]

I think kids need a bit of imaginary stuff when quite young. It helps develop their neurons.

My kids were told about Santa Claus, they soon worked out that it was imaginary by themselves. They never really believed the Tooth fairy - it was just a bit of fun and a way to earn a little bit of money.

Time enough for reality later; I think they need a bit of the supernatural. Unicorns and fairies can be helpful, as can imaginary friends.

Time to rethink if a 20 year old believes in fairies and unicorns; but it's unlikely these beasties will translate into imaginary gods.

nari

[atheist_angel]

I was abused and didn't report it because I thought Santa would save me. Well, it was logical at the time. Santa seemed to be the only thing that prevented me from being able to separate fact from fiction then.

It goes beyond just pretend. Kids are told he is 'real'.

[Lord Blackadder]

I twigged when I was five that Santa wasn't real - mind you, seeing my mother put the presents under the tree didn't help the cause...

I think some kids just play along to make mum and dad happy and because belief in Santa equals one extra present under the tree (children are cunning little buggers).

I think as long as a child understands that Santa isn't real and if it's treated as a bit of fun and part of Christmas cheer, then it's pretty harmless.

[Logic]

My fiancee's parents never told her or her sisters any of those stories and nor shall we when we have a child, they encourage belief in supernatural nonsense and serve only to disappoint the child when they learn the truth.

Great question Ectes, as a childless person I've been wondering the same thing. I grew up with easter bunny, santa etc but as soon as I asked if they were real I was told no but it's fun to pretend and was happy with that.

Fromm - did your fiance feel left out because the other kids did get to have fun with santa etc? That would be my main concern - peer pressure and being socially ostracised?

I'm also concerned how the other half's family will react....

[Fearless]

I think I have answered this somewhere else. I don't have kids (yet) but I would just basically say to a child of mine "What do you want to believe?" in the comfort of knowing if he/she decided that Santa was real then so be it one day that should change... if they asked me to tell the truth I would not lie but would sugar coat it a little.

I remember with an ex girlfriend of mine who had a nine year old... she came home crying one day that she had been teased a lot about the subject by other kids.

We asked: "Do you want to believe in Santa?" ... her reply was 'yes'. To which we replied, well it doesn't matter what anyone else believes in then does it?". She seemed fine with that resolve. I think she knew deep down that it was not true but she wanted to keep believing for now. Nothing wrong with maintaining a child's innocence and imagination.

[Dane]

I think I have answered this somewhere else. I don't have kids (yet) but I would just basically say to a child of mine "What do you want to believe?" in the comfort of knowing if he/she decided that Santa was real then so be it one day that should change... if they asked me to tell the truth I would not lie but would sugar coat it a little.
Sugar coating... I'd say I believe Santa exists: as a metaphor for the holiday cheer and fun. :D

[davros]

Nothing wrong with Santa, the tooth fairy or the easter bunny as long as they are not built up too much. The problems that can arise come when parents are too forceful in 'believing' in them. It is entirely normal for children to enjoy believing in fantastic stories whether that is winnie the pooh or whatever. But even quite young children seem to know deep down the difference between stories and things which are literally true. This sort of imagination seems to be important and natural and I have never seen any down-side.

There's a big difference between indoctrinating children (whether to believe in god or santa) and the natural enjoyment of imaginary stories. Remember that children are not straight away ready to confront the realities of the world and should be introduced to this gradually. Stories are just part of this, children can enjoy Hansel and Gretel and learn the lessons about trusting strangers (etc) without needing to be frightened by real life abduction accounts.

A great way to introduce your kids gently to a sceptical approach to life is to mix in nonsense answers occasionally. For example if they ask you a silly question like 'why do I have to tidy up' say 'because otherwise I will turn purple and my ears fall off'. When they say 'aw dad, don't be silly' they are learning to use their own mind to evaluate what is said. And its fun :)

[Fearless]

@Dane, lol yeah I better clarify... I meant I would be careful about what I said and kill the myth gently... not stab it to death in a frenzy :p

[Loki]

Santa, the bunny and tooth fairy have one important thing in common in that there is something physical associated with each of them, and kids will eventually work out that someone has to provide these physical things. Theism is different in that it has worked out a system where it literally offers nothing and people won't be confronted with reality. That people continue to go along with it shows the power of the imagination.

[Fearless]

I remember as a kid waking up at 2am to noises in the kitchen and walked out to find both parents frantically wrapping presents... they both looked at each other and knew the game was up.

Little did they know I knew their hiding spot for presents and had been playing with them in secret for weeks anyway.

Suckers!

[BelindaJ]

I figured out that Santa wasn't real when I was 6, a combination of hearing other kids talk about who they saw putting presents under the tree, and seeing Mum trying to hide presents. (I knew all the hiding places.) I played along, thinking I wouldn't get any presents if I said anything, and I also had a little sister who I knew would be very upset if Santa wasn't real. If I have kids, I want them to be able to enjoy getting presents, and having an imagination. You are only a kid for a short time, and presents are fun. Especially when you are a kid.

[Podblack]

Am I misguided? On the right track?

Not that I have or, for the time being, want kids, but preparation is always handy.

*What this has to do with the xtian Easter tale has always made me furrow my brows in confusion.

I did a podcast episode, out on Christmas day about that very question!
On Santa - Token Skeptic Episode One (http://tokenskeptic.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=563756)
- transcript here: Token Skeptic Podcast Transcript (http://tokenskeptic.org/2009/12/25/on-santa-token-skeptic-episode-one/)

[Artemisia]

I have two young children and we don't do any of the fantasy gift givers.

I've found that most skeptics and atheists view it as a bit of harmless fun and I certainly don't think it is hugely important not to do it but I'm uncomfortable with the lying to the kids, especially once they express their doubts. For me, I want to encourage valuing truth, even when the fantasy is more pleasant. Santa is a wonderful memory of childhood for most people and they see it as a very positive experience. But for me, I have a hard time distinguishing that from the "what harm is there in religion/ alt med/ new age if it makes someone feel better?". Putting forward that something is real when it is not, is harmful in and of itself, in my view.

This is generally a minority view though so prepare to horrify everyone when they find out your kids don't get Santa.

[atheist_angel]

I maybe missing something here because I never saw the 'good' in it. The kids I grew up with took it very seriously. They were angry to find out that their parents were a bunch of liars. You don't get that trust back. These grudges are carried into adulthood.

[Logic please]

Yes AA, but the Xmas presents probably helped them get over their "issues".

I remember my dad looking at me at about the age of 9, saying, "Yeah, I'm Santa... SO????".

I was just happy the pressies kept on coming... a wonderfully adaptable outlook! :D

Your points are well taken though!

[riddlemethis]

My 8 year old - "geez mum, the way you go on about how expensive christmas is, you'd think you actually had to buy the presents." Delivered with a knowing smile!!

There is one benefit to having them think the presents don't arrive in the house any earlier than christmas eve; the snoopy little buggers hold off ransacking the house for a few more years than they otherwise would. I swear my 5 year old has a built in 'something new' detector, the skill with which she finds surprise things brought into the house. . .she's like a friggin' cat! Been looking for her bday presents in advance since she was 3! (She's just like her mummy, if I am to believe Grandma! LOL)

[Made Of Stars]

So I'm chatting with my seven year old, and talking about how Santa only brings presents to good kids. :D Little chap says "I don't believe in Santa, I think it's just my parents". On being asked why, he responds that "I only believe in things that I can see". :cool:

Good lad.

Got a story of Santa skepticism to share?

[Aldaron]

Hehe...our lad admitted a while ago that he'd figured out there was no Santa by the time he was about 6 or 7, but he kept up the pretense for a couple more years so that he'd still get better presents :D

(He'll be 14 in Feburary, so his idea of a fun Xmas these days is some new Xbox 360 stuff and lots of nice food)

[Xeno]

Got a story of Santa skepticism to share?Only a permanent one. Santa never gave anyone a present at our place so there was never any point believing in him. Gifts were always between family. Our happier and open fiction was to distribute presents from any animals we had, as well as giving them a treat.

[Seamus]

Santa still gives presents to my sister's cats and the chihuahua. The cats pretend to believe in Santa due to the nice fish they get,but are overt atheists when it comes to ceiling cat.

The dog of course believes whatever the cats tell him to believe. Dogs are romantic, gullible creatures compared with cats.THAT's why they'll stay where a cat will say"Fuck this!"and leave.:p

[Praxis]

A chip off the ol' MOS block that one - well done :)

My son eventually worked it out, although I suspect he knew much earlier but preferred to hang onto it for a few years longer. Fair enough.

When it came to his little brother though (not mine, another mum, same dad), he decided that he 'needed to know so he wouldn't get upset if he found out accidentally' so he told him about two years ago, when H was 8 :rolleyes: :D (I did laugh but felt kind of sorry for poor little H, who isn't the brightest bulb in the box at the best of times).

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Give me Santa in preference to Jesus any time. I asked my friend how she could possibly believe in Jesus but not Santa Claus - and I asked her to prove Santa Claus didn't exist. Needless to say, I still don't have such proof. :p

[Darwinsbulldog]

Well, that burst my bubble, you mean Rudolf the Raindeer is also untrue :confused::confused::(:(:(:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek ::eek::)

[Mantrid]

Rudolf is real, but he created Santa as a way to control the other reindeer.

[Coryate]

At least the Hogfather is real

[AUSloth]

Was having a bit of a laugh on the FSM site and posted this

I have had a revelation and I can only assume the FSM has touched me with his noodly appendage. While sitting down with friends to a few tankards of brown frothy synaptic enhancer and a pasta salad for X-myth lunch I realised the true origin of the season.
Many centuries ago before global warming when the pirate life style was more prevalent there was always the mid-winter lull in boat traffic. With nothing to raid many pirate ships began to gather and raft up around the winter solstice to swap stories, get drunk, fight, tattoo treasure maps on the back of the cabin boys and generally refine the pirate kills for the next season. Although sailing skills were critical to their livelihoods literacy was not all that highly regarded so the charts to find the mass meet were often only marked with an X
A consequence of this banding of pirates was that a temporary flock of ships parrots came into existence and as everyone who has lived with these little flying dinosaurs knows they have scant regard for where their scat may fall! (With the exception of their nests –one of nature’s great lessons). This led to a rain of little squishy pellets on the meet or melee depending on your point of view. This was not seen as particularly bad since most of the pirates in the era were not born on the sea but into the rural communities of a much more agrarian age and escaped to sea. So these less technological brigands probably had a better appreciation of natural fertilizers and really bad rum than many of us today. In fact it was certain that a great many saw the pellets as a gift from nature.
Which brings me back to the present? As with any meal at our place we have to share with my free range parrot Russell (a cockatiel named in honour of Russell Crowe as it’s an egocentric girl with the same IQ as most Hollywood celebrities). She is a fiend for pasta and gets a little bowl to herself. After which she will fly to her perch and proceed to clean and preen for hours with special attention to her claws. Assiduously working up and down each toe and claw, leaving a pristine and sanitary appendage.
Now for the REVELATION. Hundreds of years ago before the upstart johnny-come-lately x-tian churches co-opted and distorted the event for their own mercenary and fiscal ends there was a great party called X-MASS celebrated at the WINTER SOLSTICE during which some quite SANITARY CLAWS flew above distributing GIFTS to all!!!
RAMEN





I have lots of nephews and nieces ranging from 7 to late 20's now. When we were all younger at x-myth one big family party used to happen with the matriarch (my grandmother, parent to 7 -lots of big families in my clan) presiding. There could be up to 70 or 80 at these gigs with aunts uncles cousins etc. What I found was a genuine peer presure by the older kids on the younger to keep up the pretense of belief to maintain the flow of gifts. The adults were aware but did not mind. Is this how a religion is born?
X-myth is great as a family bonding time we just need to dump the mumbo jumbo and concentrate on the community (HA! there's a big ask)

[Made Of Stars]

Rudolf is real, but he created Santa as a way to control the other reindeer.

Awesome. Post of the month. :D

[Mantrid]

What I found was a genuine peer presure by the older kids on the younger to keep up the pretense of belief to maintain the flow of gifts. The adults were aware but did not mind. Is this how a religion is born?

Imagine if the younger sibling worked it out at an earlier stage than the older... that'd make them smarter, right? Perhaps just the thrill of looking down at the ignorant is the motivation... either way, yes.. seems to be the same thing that keeps religion going.

[66 vegie]

My son never believed in Santa..we just never told him that he was real. When he talks to other kids at school about Santa, they tell him that he is real and that he should believe in him otherwise he won't get any presents under the tree..his response to that was "my mum and dad will buy me lot's of presents because I've been good for them..not some perverted old guy who comes into your house while you sleep and watches you.'

That's my boy.:D

[Xeno]

WD 66v

[Fromm_Nicht]

Give me Santa in preference to Jesus any time.

They are practically the same thing. They both offer reward and punishment for how one is perceived to have obeyed a set of predetermined moral absolutes. Teaching your children critical thinking skills and the value of relativistic ethics is a much better idea I think.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

But, the worst thing Santa does is give people lumps of coal or not give them presents. Jesus on the other hand sends people to eternal torture and pain and suffering.

Of course though, I agree with you there; much better to teach critical thinking for everything.

[Fromm_Nicht]

But, the worst thing Santa does is give people lumps of coal or not give them presents. Jesus on the other hand sends people to eternal torture and pain and suffering.

Of course though, I agree with you there; much better to teach critical thinking for everything.

Keep in mind that Jesus doesn't actually send you anywhere, seeing that there is no hell to which you may be sent. Children do on the other hand receive lumps of coal from "Santa" (or a bag of elastic bands as did one of my friends in primary school). ;)

The threat of hell is certainly worse than the threat of a lump of coal, however to me they both have the same purpose which is to condition into children certain predetermined "morally correct" behaviours. Such behaviours may not be (and likely often are not) congruent with rationally derived judgments for said scenarios. I am sure there are many young boys who receive christmas punishment for being too "sissy" or young girls for being too "butch", boys and girls for being too smart for their own good, etc.

Personally I would like to see both the Santa myth and the Jesus myth become curious relics of history. Relics that young children in their history classes may have a little chuckle at (especially the fairy man who tells people to eat him) when they learn about them.

[4lan]

Howdy,

I'm looking for some advice and suggestions.

For a couple of years I've been really uncomfortable with the popularised christmas myth of "Saint Nick".

I really hate the idea of out-right lying to my children, my wife and I still haven't inflicted our progeny on the universe and she is certain that she will not take away such a magical experience from them..

So, any idea's and preferably some real-world experience or annecdotes regarding how you dealt with it etc.

I myself figured the pretense out in my pre-teens and there-after sought out the December pressies stash. I have no ill will to my parents at all who were deliberately neutral with most other superstitions.

I think I am just trying to set my "superstitious" nerves to rest and also try not to "lie" to my child, I realise a "simple truth" is sometimes required but I still have troubles..

Thanks for your time/effort.

4lan.

[Worldslaziestbusker]

Hello 4lan
Here's a link that has a bunch of posts about lying to children (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=10588&highlight=santa). It gets to the santa stuff pretty quickly.
Cheers
Matt

[4lan]

Mister WLB, are you in my mind again? <reaches for tinfoil hat>

Cheers to both of you for responding! I had done some searches but obviously not with the proper terms or successfully.

I'll bookmark the links and post questions etc there.

Cheers again.

4lan.

[4lan]

I'll bookmark the links and post questions etc there.

4lan.

Again, thank you. Food for thought.

4lan.

[BlueDevil]

Fantasy is an important part of childhood. All children participate in it in one way or another. I truly don't believe that myths like Santa Claus do children any harm. My children certainly haven't suffered any adverse effects of believing in Santa, and I really doubt that other children do either.

Almost universally children come to realise that Santa isn't true. Do you know any adults that still believe in Santa? Religion on the other hand is a myth that perpetuates in many people into adulthood. Religion has many undesirable elements, unlike Santa. I don't think anyone ever died in the name of Santa!

My perspective: let them have some fun while they are young and let the whole family enjoy their pleasure. I don't think there are any studies that show believing in Santa causes psychological harm.

[TimB]

I agree with BlueDevil that fantasy is an important part of childhood.

The Santa thing (and the pagan bunny that brings eggs at Easter) is a good opportunity to coach your kids in working things out for themselves. They'll work it out soon enough that Santa isn't real. Last xmas my 4 year questioned me fairly extensively about how Santa was going to get down the chimney given I had blocked it up and Santa has such a big tummy etc etc. Where would he park his sleigh? If my kids ever straight out ask if Santa is real I won't lie and say he is but rather I'll be really annoying and ask them what they think!!

[Aldaron]

It's a bit of fun for kids. It's not in the same class as teaching them about God, because by the time they're slightly older, they'll figure it out and you'll all have a giggle about it. They won't have serious people knocking on their door or approaching them on the street or haranguing them on TV to worship Santa or burn in hell for eternity.

We used to have great fun as a family with the Tooth Fairy. My son would get $5 for a tooth, and he'd leave it in the glass for the TF. Of course, my wife and i would forget to put the money in, and he'd wonder what happened.

He came up with this story that our Tooth Fairy was pretty old and she kept forgetting where his room was, so we played along and soon, each time he lost a tooth, it became a game to make paper signs with arrows and "This way!" and put them all over the house because of our poor old Tooth Fairy in the early stages of Alzheimer's.

He soon figured it out, and we still laugh about it. We still laugh about Santa. We still laugh about the Easter Bunny. He's 14 now and doesn't believe in them, of course, and is also a dyed-in-the-wool atheist who argues passionately and eloquently with people at school and online about such topics.

Let the kids have a bit of fun. Make-believe is an important part of childhood. It's only when they don't grow out of it that you get religion.

[Praxis]

Your kid sounds awesome Aldaron :)

[AUSloth]

The fun factor out weighs the fantasy when kids are young, go with it. They will see through it in the end.
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-xzOV-rCBibk/Tguo9J01u_I/AAAAAAAAAPE/CZYa2KB5SUg/s512/santa.jpg

[Durro]

A bit of fantasy and creativity never hurt kids. We went with the Santa/Easter Bunny/Toothfairy thing when our kids were young, just to help add to the wonder of childhood.

By the time my daughter Claire was 6 and son Matthew was 9, they'd both worked out that something was up with the myths. Claire started it with questioning why Santa's gifts seemed to be mostly made in China and just how could one person visit millions of homes around the world in one night and "just how are reindeer supposed to fly - they don't have wings". We'd already discussed magic with them and shown them Penn and Teller clips showing how "magic" tricks are done, so they were already somewhat cynical about "magic" being used as the explanation for myths.

We used the subsequent deconstruction of the myths for a very fruitful and interesting discussion to talk about "evidence" and what people believe and why they believe it. I equated belief in Santa with belief in God, and explained how some people take certain authoritarian statements as truth and seek "evidence" that isn't credible but serves to reinforce the fantasies anyhow because of cognitive dissonance...all explained in more simple terms for my kids of course.

They came away from the several discussions we had about it quite positively. The main benefit was that they learned to critically assess evidence and not blindly accept what they're told by authority figures. They also knew things that their classmates and friends didn't know, which they found quite amusing, especially when hearing their "evidence" for the mythical creatures and understanding the reality behind it. Claire also had to write a letter to Santa in class in grade 3 and wrote a funny letter full of sarcasm and wry observations, much to the amusement of her teacher.

Now each Christmas, our kids help us plant fake reindeer footprints around the house and leave out 1/2 bitten carrots and empty milk glasses as part of our "tradition" of faking Santa and they think it's hilarious and can't wait to do the same for their kids when they grow up.

:D

Durro

[wolty]

Cool story Aldaron.


Talkatapping

[4lan]

Many thanks to all posters, great advice and stories. I particularly like the idea of equating santa with a diety when debunking the myth.

Cheers.

4lan.

[Durro]

Many thanks to all posters, great advice and stories. I particularly like the idea of equating santa with a diety when debunking the myth.

Cheers.

4lan.

Indeed. When my kids ask about why religious people of various flavours believe all the silly things they do, I respond with "remember when you believed in Santa because we told you that he was real and all your friends thought he was real and we showed you "proof" ? When even though the "proof" was fake, you believed it 100% ? Remember when you saw the red light of the plane in the night sky and thought it was Rudolph's red nose glowing ? Or when you saw Santa at the shops and thought he was the real thing and not some old guy dressed up like at hundreds of other stores ?" etc, etc.

The Santa myth came in very useful for understanding paraedolia, confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance in my kids and they now have a better appreciation (and presumably are less inclined to fall) for superstitious beliefs and why otherwise rational people can embrace the fallacies.

:p

[Xeno]

Given this thread is re-hashing stuff, here is a brief version with a slightly different emphasis.

Don't lie. Answer questions. Enjoy their world view with them.

I include in lying, encouraging a false belief other than in a recognised game, fantasy or make-believe. I do not include in lying, allowing harmless error (false belief) or games. They just need to know in good time, what is fantasy and what is not.

It's all about trust. Our kids enjoyed rewards from a supposed tooth fairy and sticking santa on a tree, and a rich set of other fantasy games with each other, their friends, and with us. We did not keep close track of when it was that they disbelieved, because we had not set about falsifying belief in the first place so it was not an event. I do not think you have to create your children's fantasies for them, just be willing to take part to the extent they want.

Our children certainly haven't suffered any adverse effects from not believing in santa, and I really doubt that other children do either.

[Lilith]

I think fantasies and nonsense and imagination are an invaluable tool to help develop their critical thinking skills.

My sprogs and I have a funny regular back-and-forth about the world - they'll ask a serious question and get a completely nonsense response.

"Why is the sky blue?"
"Because that's where smurfs go when they die."
"You're so full of crap, Mum."
"Do you see any smurfs around?"

The other day my sprog (15) put her hands on her hips after one such exchange and said "You're our parent, yanno. Your job is supposed to be telling us the truth." and I responded that she was mistaken. That my job is to teach her how to find the truth for herself.

If your wife wants to make christmas magical, then let her - throw yourself into it too and make it so damn magical that your kid will put their tiny little hands on their hips and say "As if. You're so full of crap, Dad." :p

[4lan]

Given this thread is re-hashing stuff, here is a brief version with a slightly different emphasis.

Don't lie. Answer questions. Enjoy their world view with them.

I include in lying, encouraging a false belief other than in a recognised game, fantasy or make-believe. I do not include in lying, allowing harmless error (false belief) or games. They just need to know in good time, what is fantasy and what is not.

It's all about trust. Our kids enjoyed rewards from a supposed tooth fairy and sticking santa on a tree, and a rich set of other fantasy games with each other, their friends, and with us. We did not keep close track of when it was that they disbelieved, because we had not set about falsifying belief in the first place so it was not an event. I do not think you have to create your children's fantasies for them, just be willing to take part to the extent they want.

Our children certainly haven't suffered any adverse effects from not believing in santa, and I really doubt that other children do either.

Thank you, that certainly clarifies issues I had some qualms about.

I think fantasies and nonsense and imagination are an invaluable tool to help develop their critical thinking skills.

My sprogs and I have a funny regular back-and-forth about the world - they'll ask a serious question and get a completely nonsense response.

"Why is the sky blue?"
"Because that's where smurfs go when they die."
"You're so full of crap, Mum."
"Do you see any smurfs around?"

The other day my sprog (15) put her hands on her hips after one such exchange and said "You're our parent, yanno. Your job is supposed to be telling us the truth." and I responded that she was mistaken. That my job is to teach her how to find the truth for herself.

If your wife wants to make christmas magical, then let her - throw yourself into it too and make it so damn magical that your kid will put their tiny little hands on their hips and say "As if. You're so full of crap, Dad." :p

Given my wifes frequent remarks I doubt it'll take me long to get that statement out of them!

Regarding this thread perhaps it would be best to "tag" this onto the first santa (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=4676) one to avoid the resource being spread about too much?

Again; I really appreciate all the advice and anecdotes!

4lan.

[Perspective]

Hey 4lan,

You may have already read my post in the 'Lying to children' thread. I told my 6yr old the truth the other day and she didn't give a shit except she thought she might lose out on presents. This is the exact reason I don't like Santa and the tooth fairy, easter bunny etc. Everyone else I've told thinks I'm sour but I just don't like the way it's shoved down our throats and kids expect presents - at least most western kids do. It's become a machine of an idea that creates greed.

We still read books about fairies etc and she can still enjoy the idea of Santa but at least when she gets presents and other less fortunate kids don't, she'll know that it's not because she's a 'chosen one.'

In my opinion, Santa was a nice idea, and there's nothing like seeing your young children get all excited, I loved that element, but it got out of hand with my girl so I decided to cap it.:rolleyes:

[4lan]

In my opinion, Santa was a nice idea, and there's nothing like seeing your young children get all excited, I loved that element, but it got out of hand with my girl so I decided to cap it.:rolleyes:


Another aspect that hadn't occured to me, an invaluable point.

Personally I've seen the exchanging of gifts during the seasonal holiday as simply and excercise in making the giver feel good which makes the whole thing false to me and often people are so preoccupied ensuring the gifts value is equivalent to that being received from a particular person it's really put me off the whole present activity.

As mentioned I've no children yet so I'm only speaking from my own experience however yourself and others have really made a good case for making the best of the "tale" and using it as a learning experience too.

4lan.

[Podblack]

Essentially - you worry and are traumatised by what to do far more than they'll ever be by it. :)

Podcast episode I did on the topic here. :) (http://tokenskeptic.org/2010/12/15/re-release-of-token-skeptic-1-on-santa/)

[wearestardust]

"Why is the sky blue?"
"Because that's where smurfs go when they die."
"You're so full of crap, Mum."
"Do you see any smurfs around?"


Have you considered a career in ministry?

[Lilith]

Have you considered a career in ministry?

I don't think I could be anything so mundane.. If I was going to minister, it would be as a prophetess. Though I'll perhaps adjust Mohammed's model so that when the vindictive and silly people suicide themselves for the greater good, they'll do it far away from innocent other folk.

[BlueDevil]

Personally I've seen the exchanging of gifts during the seasonal holiday as simply and excercise in making the giver feel good which makes the whole thing false to me and often people are so preoccupied ensuring the gifts value is equivalent to that being received from a particular person it's really put me off the whole present activity.

4lan.

Don't underestimate the pleasure that parents get from giving the 'right' present to your kids.

We all recognise that xmas has got of of hand in term of the type of presents kids get these days. To some extent this is the fault of the parents for overdoing things in terms of how much they spend (and I guess I have been guilty in this department). It also stems from society in general where other parents give lavish presents to their kids and advertisers push very expensive products as must have presents.

If you really want to make the whole family feel good about xmas give a donation to a secular charity such as The Smith Family so that you can bring some joy to an underprivileged child at xmas. When your own kids are old enough to understand that other children live in poverty they can learn the pleasure of giving a donation as a family and maybe you can get them to help choose which charity to support. You could also go online and buy your xmas cards from a charity and get the kids to help choose the cards, making sure they understand that the benefit in purchasing cards from a charity.

[Perspective]

Don't underestimate the pleasure that parents get from giving the 'right' present to your kids.

We all recognise that xmas has got of of hand in term of the type of presents kids get these days. To some extent this is the fault of the parents for overdoing things in terms of how much they spend (and I guess I have been guilty in this department). It also stems from society in general where other parents give lavish presents to their kids and advertisers push very expensive products as must have presents.

If you really want to make the whole family feel good about xmas give a donation to a secular charity such as The Smith Family so that you can bring some joy to an underprivileged child at xmas. When your own kids are old enough to understand that other children live in poverty they can learn the pleasure of giving a donation as a family and maybe you can get them to help choose which charity to support. You could also go online and buy your xmas cards from a charity and get the kids to help choose the cards, making sure they understand that the benefit in purchasing cards from a charity.

Excellent BD - I'm definately on to this this year :)

[girifox]

When my eight-year old daughter asked me point-blank is Santa Claus real, I said no. I told her I'd played along with the idea because imagination is a wonderful thing. She then asked me about the tooth fairy, so again I couldn't lie to her.

She thought it was really sweet that I'd gone along with these fantasy stories.

I did explain to her that many other children's parents keep the fantasy going for a bit longer, so it'd be better to keep it to herself. My five-year old son however doesn't care for that mushy soft stuff, though, so he's happily talked about how Santa Claus isn't real to his little friends and caused a bit of upset. The teacher even kindly and genuinely asked if we could explain to him that some of his friends believe in Santa, and god too.

Oh well, in my view, the principle of truth outweighs other parents' "rights" to sustain their children's belief in a fantasy.

I still buy my kids presents, and explain xmas is a holiday invented by christians but who cares, it's a good excuse to get presents.

[Mantrid]

I still buy my kids presents, and explain xmas is a holiday invented by christians but who cares, it's a good excuse to get presents.

Should probably explain to them that it was created by Pagans to celebrate the Winter Solstice, and then stolen by christians - using the same day so the Pagans could think they were still celebrating their regular thing.

I'd like to see Easter and Xmas returned to their Solstice/Equinox celebratory traditions. At least it's celebrating something tangible :)

[mrknowitall]

Howdy,

I'm looking for some advice and suggestions.

For a couple of years I've been really uncomfortable with the popularised christmas myth of "Saint Nick".

I really hate the idea of out-right lying to my children, my wife and I still haven't inflicted our progeny on the universe and she is certain that she will not take away such a magical experience from them..

So, any idea's and preferably some real-world experience or annecdotes regarding how you dealt with it etc.

I myself figured the pretense out in my pre-teens and there-after sought out the December pressies stash. I have no ill will to my parents at all who were deliberately neutral with most other superstitions.

I think I am just trying to set my "superstitious" nerves to rest and also try not to "lie" to my child, I realise a "simple truth" is sometimes required but I still have troubles..

Thanks for your time/effort.

4lan.

Put it this way. St Nick for 10 years maybe? Then enlightenment? Sure!

Jesus/God/bullshit for life = No enlightenment, fear, self loathing, subservience to a capricious vicious supreme being, hatred of non conformers, warfare, patriotism, homophobia... etc etc. You get the picture?

St Nick is NOT child abuse! Nor is the Easter Bunny. But make/force your young highly easily influenced kids into believing a complete bunch of totally unproven unsubstantiated medievil rubbish that will hold them back until the day they either die OR see through the crap IS abusive!

[mrknowitall]

I don't think I could be anything so mundane.. If I was going to minister, it would be as a prophetess. Though I'll perhaps adjust Mohammed's model so that when the vindictive and silly people suicide themselves for the greater good, they'll do it far away from innocent other folk.

Your disguise is slipping my dear! LOL No offence.)))

[Mantrid]

St Nick is NOT child abuse! Nor is the Easter Bunny.

True, but only because when a child starts asking proper questions (or the adult gets sick of making up more woo) - they get told the truth. I still think it should be avoided.

People wonder why teenagers rebel against their parents. Think about it. "You have to be good, or Santa won't give you presents.", "There's a giant rabbit that delivers chocolate eggs!", "If you leave your tooth under your pillow, a fairy will take it away and leave you money!". Then, just before they're teenagers.. "Yeah, umm.. we made that shit up to fuck with you. You were so gullible".... kids spends a few years in stunned amazement, thinking about their relationship with their parents and decided to rebel. Parent:"Why won't you listed to what we say? You're always ignoring us. It seems like you do everything we tell you not to, just to annoy us". Damn right parents. It's called revenge.

Just my take :)

Personally, my sister told me when she found out. I was too young to be annoyed, and I had a fine relationship with my parents as a teen :)

[mrknowitall]

True, but only because when a child starts asking proper questions (or the adult gets sick of making up more woo) - they get told the truth. I still think it should be avoided.

I'd agree with you on principle. But imagine the peer pressure? Ouch.

People wonder why teenagers rebel against their parents. Think about it. "You have to be good, or Santa won't give you presents.", "There's a giant rabbit that delivers chocolate eggs!", "If you leave your tooth under your pillow, a fairy will take it away and leave you money!". Then, just before they're teenagers.. "Yeah, umm.. we made that shit up to fuck with you.

Gee. That's a tad harsh. I'm fairly sure my wife and I NEVER held that view.

You were so gullible".... kids spends a few years in stunned amazement, thinking about their relationship with their parents and decided to rebel. Parent:"Why won't you listed to what we say? You're always ignoring us. It seems like you do everything we tell you not to, just to annoy us". Damn right parents. It's called revenge.

Just my take :)

Personally, my sister told me when she found out. I was too young to be annoyed, and I had a fine relationship with my parents as a teen :)

So who are these rebellious ones? Not you thankfully! No offence.)))

[Aldaron]

People wonder why teenagers rebel against their parents.

Not really. Most people know exactly why teenagers rebel against their parents. They're stretching their wings from childhood into adulthood, they're bags of raging hormones, and they're wondering more and more why they - who look almost like adults - still have to follow rules adults don't.

My 14 year old rebels against us from time to time, and he's been an atheist all his life and hasn't believed in Santa, the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy for a loooong time.

Here's a hint: teenagers rebel against their parents in every culture on the planet. Even the ones without Santa.

[mrknowitall]

Here's a hint: teenagers rebel against their parents in every culture on the planet. Even the ones without Santa.

5 stars! Nice observation.))

[Mantrid]

My reason was more amusing :)

[Onlyatheory?]

Thread revival:

I have been thinking about this lately. My thoughts have stemmed from the old Jewish saying of 'Give me the boy for his first 7 years and I will give you the man'.

This statement makes my skin crawl as it is an overt and unashamed admission that they are willing to take away a child's ability to question in order to maintain a fairytale.

Back to my question: Is telling your kids that Santa or The Easter Bunny exist unintentionally taking the edge off our kid's developing sense of reason? To explain, if we are telling our kids that mythical beings/creatures etc are real (without also telling them that it is all a game of make believe) during such an important developmental period in their lives, are we setting them up to be more likely to believe in other myths (you know who/what I am talking about here;)) later in life? I tell you what, bring this up with people that aren't used to questioning things and you better have a thick skin:eek:. I ask this question here as I hope for reasoned opinions/discussion, not the knee-jerk, inflammatory crap I have received in face-to-face encounters.

Also, to clarify, I don't necessarily believe it to be the case. I just think that the possibility is worth exploring.

For those that wish to argue that taking away Santa would take away something special for the kids, my argument goes something like this. Kids love the pressies and parents love to give them to their kids, so that part remains satisfied. Perhaps even enhanced on the part of the parents as they know that the child understands where the pressie has come from. Also, rather than say the the present has come from Santa, isn't it far more special to say that 'This present is to you from me because I love you and think you are special. Today is the day each year when we simply celebrate knowing each other and being together.'

Just a thought.......

[Xeno]

I have largely said my piece (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showpost.php?p=213596&postcount=16).

[Onlyatheory?]

Given this thread is re-hashing stuff, here is a brief version with a slightly different emphasis.

Don't lie. Answer questions. Enjoy their world view with them.

I include in lying, encouraging a false belief other than in a recognised game, fantasy or make-believe. I do not include in lying, allowing harmless error (false belief) or games. They just need to know in good time, what is fantasy and what is not.

It's all about trust. Our kids enjoyed rewards from a supposed tooth fairy and sticking santa on a tree, and a rich set of other fantasy games with each other, their friends, and with us. We did not keep close track of when it was that they disbelieved, because we had not set about falsifying belief in the first place so it was not an event. I do not think you have to create your children's fantasies for them, just be willing to take part to the extent they want.

Our children certainly haven't suffered any adverse effects from not believing in santa, and I really doubt that other children do either.

Cheers, Xeno. Yeah, I read the thread before posting. In the post you are referring to, are the areas that I have bolded in conflict? Or was it a case of making sure your kids knew that santa and the tooth fairy were mythical and you just played along for the fun of it?

[Onlyatheory?]

Come on Mr B!!! It took long enough to read the first thread. It will be a 'hard days night' to get through the rest..

*Slinks away in self disgust*

[Xeno]

@OaT: I sought to distinguish that one does not stomp about the place yelling bullshit whenever one's children engage in fantasy from the fact that we did not act to promote or to sustain the fantasy other than by joining their own game, at their pleasure and their leisure. That is a general point, of which Santa is one instance.

Note I said we did not falsify belief. For example, in the Santa case we did not provide presents supposedly from Santa nor say Santa existed, but nor did we declare outright that Santa, of whom they heard from others, did not exist until they implicitly asked.

We found that presents named as being from various pets provided the extra rewards they might have missed from not having gifts from relatives and provided a form of fantasy they recognised and enjoyed.

[Onlyatheory?]

@OaT: I sought to distinguish that one does not stomp about the place yelling bullshit whenever one's children engage in fantasy from the fact that we did not act to promote or to sustain the fantasy other than by joining their own game, at their pleasure and their leisure. That is a general point, of which Santa is one instance.

Note I said we did not falsify belief. For example, in the Santa case we did not provide presents supposedly from Santa nor say Santa existed, but nor did we declare outright that Santa, of whom they heard from others, did not exist until they implicitly asked.

We found that presents named as being from various pets provided the extra rewards they might have missed from not having gifts from relatives and provided a form of fantasy they recognised and enjoyed.

Very cool. Thanks for that. This is probably the best explanation as to where I stand on the issue. Up until now, I have gone along with everyone else and perpetuated the myth. However, it has been not been sitting well with me for a while. My question I suppose is 'Is it damaging to perpetuate the myth'? I would be very interested in your take on it.

[Xeno]

My question I suppose is 'Is it damaging to perpetuate the myth'? I would be very interested in your take on it.We decided it was damaging, in taking the stance I described, because it (promoting a myth by conscious deception) represented to us a deliberate breach of trust, knowing it would be discovered eventually, for no purpose for which we could not find replacement actions.

We do not think it is enough to say "children must or do have fantasies". Of course they do, and for the most part they know what they are at the time yet enjoy them anyway, aside from aspirations but it is not as if they should sensibly aspire to be the tooth fairy. Mysteries should be solvable, not actions by adults to make playthings of children.

I am sure I have said this before somewhere but at the heart of my dealings with our children and others are that they are intelligent, deserve respect as much as does any human, and happen not to know as much yet, although their learning prospects are usually greater than for some adults. If parents want to play Santas then bring the children into the game as partners, not dupes.

Not everyone agrees with me :)

[Onlyatheory?]

We decided it was damaging, in taking the stance I described, because it (promoting a myth by conscious deception) represented to us a deliberate breach of trust, knowing it would be discovered eventually, for no purpose for which we could not find replacement actions.

We do not think it is enough to say "children must or do have fantasies". Of course they do, and for the most part they know what they are at the time yet enjoy them anyway, aside from aspirations but it is not as if they should sensibly aspire to be the tooth fairy. Mysteries should be solvable, not actions by adults to make playthings of children.

I am sure I have said this before somewhere but at the heart of my dealings with our children and others are that they are intelligent, deserve respect as much as does any human, and happen not to know as much yet, although their learning prospects are usually greater than for some adults. If parents want to play Santas then bring the children into the game as partners, not dupes.

Not everyone agrees with me :)

No arguments from me ;)

[Ford]

[quote='If parents want to play Santas then bring the children into the game as partners, not dupes'. No arguments from me ;)[/quote]
Of course the game doesn't work if all the kids are 'partners'. Mine were brouight into the game when they started school and that worked. Another thought: Busting myths like Santas and Tooth Fairies may well be a prompt to question a few more! :)

[dilbadoon]

We decided it was damaging, in taking the stance I described, because it (promoting a myth by conscious deception) represented to us a deliberate breach of trust, knowing it would be discovered eventually, for no purpose for which we could not find replacement actions.

We do not think it is enough to say "children must or do have fantasies". Of course they do, and for the most part they know what they are at the time yet enjoy them anyway, aside from aspirations but it is not as if they should sensibly aspire to be the tooth fairy. Mysteries should be solvable, not actions by adults to make playthings of children.

I am sure I have said this before somewhere but at the heart of my dealings with our children and others are that they are intelligent, deserve respect as much as does any human, and happen not to know as much yet, although their learning prospects are usually greater than for some adults. If parents want to play Santas then bring the children into the game as partners, not dupes.

Not everyone agrees with me :)

Very well said Xeno.

[Podblack]

My question I suppose is 'Is it damaging to perpetuate the myth'? I would be very interested in your take on it.

Research done: http://tokenskeptic.org/2009/12/25/on-santa-token-skeptic-episode-one - On Santa: Token Skeptic Podcast (http://tokenskeptic.org/2009/12/25/on-santa-token-skeptic-episode-one/).
Transcript is included in the blogpost for the podcast. Enjoy!

[Onlyatheory?]

Thanks Podblack. I read the transcript. Interesting.

A little harder to research, but I guess I would like to know what the long term effects are. Whether the deception or realisation of the santa myth makes kids sad is interesting, but I would like to know what people would suspect is the long term effect. Dunno if any research has been done. Might do a bit of digging.

Thanks again for the link. I have just signed up for the podcast!!

[DanDare]

War on The Solstice
As you all know, the secular-hedonism forces in the country are doing everything they can to attack the valuable cultural icon of the Solstice. To wit:


People are refraining from saying "joyful Solstice," replacing it with such heathen phrases as "happy holidays," "happy New Year," "Merry Christmas" and "Happy Chaunakah;"
Our traditional solstice symbols, such as the star and wreath, have been co-opted by the forces of Christmas;
Stores across the country have abandoned their stock of solstice-related merchandise. You can find Dradles, mangers and other merchandise, but nowhere can you find solstice-specific items;

Want to help end this anti-Solstice scourge? We at the Department of Pagan Enthusiasm (DOPE) have prepared a short list of tasks you can incorporate into your everyday life. See below the fold for this list.


Full Article (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/11/24/1039686/-War-%20On-%20Solstice)...

In the list of things you can do to help I particularly like
7. see a manger scene? Get a bunch of "it's a girl!" balloons and tie them to the hands of the wise men. Tie them to the crib as well and make sure to put a pink bow on the baby's head;

[Xeno]

David Jones in Sydney has its usual display. We noticed the figures have become more muppet-like in their appearance and less human or doll-like.

The camels, also muppet-like, appear to have foolish grins and are set to wag their heads gently from side to side. It caused us to laugh in the street*.





* For reference purposes, the street in which said laughter is claimed to have occurred was Elizabeth.

[Mjt]

Thanks Podblack. I read the transcript. Interesting.

A little harder to research, but I guess I would like to know what the long term effects are. Whether the deception or realisation of the santa myth makes kids sad is interesting, but I would like to know what people would suspect is the long term effect. Dunno if any research has been done. Might do a bit of digging.

Thanks again for the link. I have just signed up for the podcast!!

This is very interesting OaTs. I wonder a lot about brain development and would be curious to know whether growing up in an environment where these types of myths are presented as reality encourages the development of a brain which readily accepts myth as reality despite evidence to the contrary. Some brains seem to do this much more easily than others, and I'm not referring to intelligence or gullability, but rather brain function. It is very difficult to research, and may not be an issue worthy of research, but I do wonder ( keeping in mine my lack of any real knowledge)

[Onlyatheory?]

This is very interesting OaTs. I wonder a lot about brain development and would be curious to know whether growing up in an environment where these types of myths are presented as reality encourages the development of a brain which readily accepts myth as reality despite evidence to the contrary. Some brains seem to do this much more easily than others, and I'm not referring to intelligence or gullability, but rather brain function. It is very difficult to research, and may not be an issue worthy of research, but I do wonder ( keeping in mine my lack of any real knowledge)

My point exactly with one difference. I definately think it IS worthy of research.

[karenmak]

Hi all, I have not posted in a while but thought I would read through some of these comments to see what others think. I will tell you what I think, and I know some of you wont agree (that's fine with me). I used to do the whole Christmas thing with the tree and presents thinking I was being kind to my then very young children. We moved to a new town and started using real trees as there is an abundance of little offshoots near my house. I then started to wonder why do we get a tree, to this day I truly have no idea, it is not winter here, we dont need an evergreen tree inside to remind us of the good weather etc The only explanation I have is that this is what we did when I was a child. The same can be said for presents. I think if you want to give something nice to someone to say I love you that is fine but to think you 'have to' because it is a 'special day' then why bother, surely the good intention is gone? My children already feel different because I wont let them sit in on CRE classes at our local primary school (we want to teach them about all religions not just christian beliefs so they can make up their own minds, they only teach christian here). I figure if I keep going on with the illusion of Christmas with my kids they too will simply follow on. Now the rest of my family does do the whole thing, this makes it difficult as they share gifts etc and I might say that is fair enough but I find it very hard to say no please dont buy things for my children. I think this year we will try doing something special for the holidays (as we usually try to) but we will celebrate each other not some magical fantasy idol. We wont get a tree, have a big dinner or expect anything from each other and see what happens. Who knows if you are nearby around that time, drop in and you too could share in our special day because we should be kind to others. So I wont do Christmas with my children this year, they wont miss out because we will do something special just for us and the rest of the family can do as they please. Our society says this is the time to have a holiday because it is summer as do most other societies similar to our own, it is not just for Chistmas but if you decide to do the santa/other stuff just explain the reasons why people do celebrate and even think about other religions such as Judaism etc who for ever have not celebrated Christmas but live in our society.:)

[Onlyatheory?]

Hi all, I have not posted in a while but thought I would read through some of these comments to see what others think. I will tell you what I think, and I know some of you wont agree (that's fine with me). I used to do the whole Christmas thing with the tree and presents thinking I was being kind to my then very young children. We moved to a new town and started using real trees as there is an abundance of little offshoots near my house. I then started to wonder why do we get a tree, to this day I truly have no idea, it is not winter here, we dont need an evergreen tree inside to remind us of the good weather etc The only explanation I have is that this is what we did when I was a child. The same can be said for presents. I think if you want to give something nice to someone to say I love you that is fine but to think you 'have to' because it is a 'special day' then why bother, surely the good intention is gone? My children already feel different because I wont let them sit in on CRE classes at our local primary school (we want to teach them about all religions not just christian beliefs so they can make up their own minds, they only teach christian here). I figure if I keep going on with the illusion of Christmas with my kids they too will simply follow on. Now the rest of my family does do the whole thing, this makes it difficult as they share gifts etc and I might say that is fair enough but I find it very hard to say no please dont buy things for my children. I think this year we will try doing something special for the holidays (as we usually try to) but we will celebrate each other not some magical fantasy idol. We wont get a tree, have a big dinner or expect anything from each other and see what happens. Who knows if you are nearby around that time, drop in and you too could share in our special day because we should be kind to others. So I wont do Christmas with my children this year, they wont miss out because we will do something special just for us and the rest of the family can do as they please. Our society says this is the time to have a holiday because it is summer as do most other societies similar to our own, it is not just for Chistmas but if you decide to do the santa/other stuff just explain the reasons why people do celebrate and even think about other religions such as Judaism etc who for ever have not celebrated Christmas but live in our society.:)

Fair enough. I can handle that. However, I might draw your attention to the bolded section. I concede your point that some may get caught up with the 'have to buy' thing as you have suggested. I guess many of us have done it. However, I don't think that singling out a 'special' day has to diminish the significance of giving gifts at all. To me, taking that one day out is important for a couple of reasons: Firstly, I am making sure that my 'complete' focus is on the special people around me on that one day and I try to make sure that as little as possible gets in the way of that. Secondly, singling out one day in the year to do this makes sure that we actually get around to doing it!! Life seems to just get in the way. I, like a lot of people, have gotten a little caught up in career stuff etc and made a complete botch-job of work-life balance (hard as it was to admit to myself). A bit of self-exploration has forced me to reassess what is important to me at least. The last thing I want to do when I reach my later years is to look back and say 'Where the hell did all the time go and what the hell have I actually done with it?'.
Each to their own I suppose. I don't mean that as a flippant dismissal. Only to say, if it 'floats your boat, go for it', but don't knock others who see it in another light. Perhaps you agree?

[karenmak]

I do agree with what you say doing it on the 25th is fine, I think what I was saying is that sometimes in my past I 'had' to buy christmas presents for people I 1 didnt really know and 2 I didnt love just because it ws christmas! I think that is all I meant. I probably didnt make that clear (and probably haven't):eek:

[Onlyatheory?]

I do agree with what you say doing it on the 25th is fine, I think what I was saying is that sometimes in my past I 'had' to buy christmas presents for people I 1 didnt really know and 2 I didnt love just because it ws christmas! I think that is all I meant. I probably didnt make that clear (and probably haven't):eek:

'Tis all loud and clear!!

[Logic please]

@karenmak & OaT: there are valid points in the posts from both of you, IMO. :)

Reading them, it occurred to me that if one wants to get away from the whole *mythmas shebang*, without losing a day dedicated to show love and appreciation to family and friends...

...how about setting a day in lieu of mythmas for your family, say in late Oct or early Nov, call it Appreciation Day for example, and give pressies and good wishes to family and friends as you choose?

They're still free to reciprocate at mythmas if they wish, it signals to your children that shows of love and appreciation don't have to be restricted to some retail calendar, ;) no-one misses out, and you don't have to feel compromised by tying family love and caring to some copyright-breaching religious myth. :D

I'd expect that a similar idea has ben floated before, so my apologies if so. I also acknowledge that the idea assumes that your family and friends are aware of the reasons behind your stance. ;)

Not trying to be prescriptive, just throwing an idea out there. YMMV, of course. :)

I think some of Xeno's earlier posts in this thread were also apposite, I'll also link them later.

ADD: Xeno's (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showpost.php?p=251948&postcount=206) posts (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showpost.php?p=251960&postcount=208), as promised. I note that OaT will already be familiar with them, as a participant in that discussion. :)

[Onlyatheory?]

@LP: Not too shabby. Without yet thinking about it too deeply, I think that this is probably a worthy pursuit. The tricky bit would be the rest of the family. One thing I have learnt while exploring this topic is that asking someone who is not used to questioning the status quo about this stuff usually results in them looking at you like you have just asked to shag their grandma. Talk about a touchy topic. Stuffed if I know why..........

[AUSloth]

@DD

"It's a girl balloons" :D :D :D

[Seamus]

My thoughts have stemmed from the old Jewish saying of 'Give me the boy for his first 7 years and I will give you the man'. Fascinating, I hadn't heard that before.

I HAVE heard a similar quote attributed to Augustine of Hippo Give me the child until the age of six,and I care not who has the manWouldn't be surprised if the devious bastard pinched it from the Jews.:p

[Imperfectpeta]

So I read through this thread and then had a good hard think about things. Then I approached my hubby the other night about what he thinks of my new-found opinions on Xmas, Santa and our future children.

My opinion being that I do not want to do the santa thing with the kids, but everything else non-religious would be fine. After him pretty much agreeing with me on everything, and expanding my views (as he does so wonderfully) for me and explaining what I was thinking better than I ever could have, we left it at that.

But since today is Dec 1 and it is traditionally the day to put the Xmas tree up we went out to pick up some more tinsel and we started discussing Xmas again. (A bit of background, my hubby has always had a hard time dealing with Xmas, he lost a few family members over the years at this time so it hasn't been full of cheer for him for years, but we try to make an effort).

He then asks me, "Why do we do Xmas at all?" And that was a good question, I do the tree because he thought it might make things a little more cheery and help him through the season, but as he said earlier today, it is starting to feel fake for him. It has always felt fake for me a little bit.

So we both agreed, after a long, indepth discussion about the whole season, that we would pack the tree away (it was out airing) with all the decorations and not even put it up this year. We won't get rid of it this year, just incase we change our minds later, but I doubt that will happen. I think this is something we will need to further discuss through the coming months and years before we have kids, but we have pretty much decided that we are going to give the season a complete miss. Small handmade pressies for the rellies (which we were going to do anyways - toffee is easy and looks nice in glass jars) and that's it. No cards, no tree, no over-spending because the world tells us we have to.

I have been feeling anxious about Xmas this year up till this point, and now, I feel happy and relaxed. So I'll have to see how this works out for us this year!

Is anyone else giving the season a complete miss this year?

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

I suppose Christmas is all about lights, special effects, the heavenly kind thought of clouds, celebration, gifts, and having fun right?
http://www.fastcoolcars.com/images/wallpaper33/Blown-Mustang.jpg

[DanDare]

Is anyone else giving the season a complete miss this year?
No way. I am a very social creature. For me its important to have some seasonal milestones where people choose to change gears and concentrate on friends, family and joy. Strip all the religion out of the celebration and you are left with an excellent set of rituals for helping people to do just that. Children love seeing the trees and the lights and the decorations. For that matter so do I. Same with easter when I get to chocolate bing with friends. We also due yule fest, taking the corresponding christmas stuff and doing it in July, when the weather is more appropriate for hot chocolate and log fires.

The trappings are just a signal, a way of bringing people together and setting off a different attitude to the work a day stuff. The worst thing that ever happened was that religions stole this stuff away from us.

[Darwinsbulldog]

I am going to be an atheistic cultural Christian and give presents-not to honour the Jesus Zombie, but to bring some comfort to shop keepers and shop assistants suffering under the wonderland of Barnett's two speed economy.

[Xeno]

Christmas means holidays so our children can come to visit, other commitments permitting, and this year they are. This is not something one gives a miss. We will exchange presents and have a good meal, because celebrating is fun.

The fact there will be more religious shit around the place and in the news will be irritating, but probably not as bad as a Rugby player finding themselves in Melbourne during AFL Finals month, or similar things.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Is anyone else giving the season a complete miss this year?Probably me. Though the only thing I can think of doing differently is making sure I stick below the 100km/h speed limit regularly.
I'm not worried about getting busted for drink driving since I do not drink.

Other than that most christmas things have not been the best for me. Boring or otherwise a complete mishap.

[bruce1937]

Nothing going on here, I am willing to sacrifice a few virgins if any are willing but that is as likely as me becoming a god of some sort.

[DanDare]

“If her brothers told her [there was no Santa], they would be punished. So I can’t imagine what should happen to the teacher.”
Really? Punished for telling your sister the truth as you know it? Great message. :facepalm:

[Imperfectpeta]

Really? Punished for telling your sister the truth as you know it? Great message. :facepalm:

I thought the exact same thing just then.

And I'm not sure I can join in the happiness of Xmas and all the decorations that go with. It was always an annoying night filled with drama and fights trying to put our childhood tree up. And since I started working, Xmas time (and Easter) has been filled with stressed, whining, annoying people and children that seem to not be able to behave while out. Who also seem to not understand that you DO NOT HAVE TO BUY THAT PRESENT, or that ham, or that carton of coke... you will NEVER NEED THEM! (Thank you retail!)

I see my family more than enough during the year for birthdays and plain old dinners. I hate the 'we must see each other on Xmas because it is a time for family'. It makes it seem like (for me) that all those dinners during the year mean nothing but formality to them. :rolleyes:

I am anti-social to a degree though. And am turning into quite the annoying bore of a family member (ie: a definite no chocolate for me for Xmas or easter next year).

And @Bruce: If I find a virgin lying around I'll be sure to send ya a message. But they ARE hard to come by so if we contact you you better be here quickly otherwise she won't be so pure by the time you collect her :p:D

[DanDare]

I like any excuse for family and friend get togethers. Having a big special occasion shouldn't make the others diminish in value. That's why I quite like all the shmaltsy family scenes in the old 50's movie of A Christmas Carol with Bob bringing home the goose and everyone running around all excited. Its not like they don't dine together every other night of the year.

And then there's this:
fCNvZqpa-7Q

That's become THE Christmas carol for me (my daughter's 16 but I still remember her being passed around at family christmas get togethers when she was a baby).

Did we have bad xmas experiences? Yeah, my mum insisted on making huge roast dinners in the Australian heat and would get upset if we weren't appropriately grateful for her sacrifice. Now she was a great cook, but frankly I would have preferred ham sandwiches and cold cuts.

Also, she was an alcoholic, and you could guarantee something would set her off on Christmas day and that would be the end of the fun at home. Most everyone else ran away but I stayed and kept vigil till she had sobered up or passed out. This doesn't seem to have attached itself to my sense of occasion at Christmas.

[Phroso]

Tis the season when I start to get greetings from friends around the world. These days, cards in the letterbox are largely absent and cute animated seasonal greetings via email are the order of the day.

The ones I usually receive range from those with a sickly, stomach churning, spiritual emphasis that invariably heap seasonal blessings upon my head, to the more commercial style showing Santa, trees, snow and twinkling lights.

Occasionally, but very infrequently, I receive something that even a hardened atheist such as myself finds entertaining.

Although I find the religious/commercial aspects of Christmas repellant, I would still like to respond to my friends and circulate some kind of seasonal greeting that is appropriate to but not necessarily proselytising my atheistic philosophy.

All ideas or links welcome!

[Phroso]

Found the following while web surfing.

It's taken from the Landover Baptist Church Forum "Guaranteeing Salvation since 1620" and is a comment on the thread, "What is the worst holiday greeting?"

See: http://tinyurl.com/7m9w7cn


Rev. M. Rodimer
Honorary True Christian™
Forum Member

Join Date: May 2008
Location: North Salem, Indiana
Posts: 7,658

Re: What is the worst holiday greeting?

<snip>

As far as "ChristMyth" . . . I was at the mall on Thursday and and a young man stocking shelves wished me a "Merry ChristMyth". Figuring it was a lisp, I was about to begin explaining to him how God feels about homosexuals, when the cashier called out to her minimum-wage buddy and said, "No, you have to pronounce it like two words, "Christ Myth". You just sound like a big ol' GURL who can't talk right the way you say it! You know, like Jamie, the only guy working in Cosmetics?"

Realizing what he'd been trying to say, and that it was possible he was not a homosexual after all, I instead explained to him what God thinks of atheists, and described his future in God's Lake of Fire. After only fifteen minutes he was begging for the Lord. "Jesus Christ," he yelled, "Please! What will it take to stop you?"

I of course explained that he could avoid Jesus casting him into Hell by becoming a Christian.

HE AGREED! He wrote down his address so I could mail him a free KJV1611. It goes out tomorrow!
__________________
Bust Pope Benedict, the Kiddie-Fiddler of Vatican City!

[AUSloth]

After a small debate and compromise we now have an office x-myth tree complete with its first gift, a bottle of Tabasco Habanero ready for those little treats.
http://img.tapatalk.com/c0947560-c19a-c997.jpg

[AUSloth]

Not so easy to get that flavour around here, bought four bottles when in Sydney recently. Should last about 6 months.:cool:

[Phroso]

Another article debating the pros and cons of Christmas as a "religious" or "holiday" season.

The principal of a school in Sydney’s west is the Grinch who stole Christmas. Imagine the confusion on the faces of the three-year-olds at their End of Year Singalong for parents at the Inner Sydney Montessori School.

<Illustration snipped>

God forbid that they could be called Christmas carols! Instead of being allowed to sing, “We Wish You a Merry Christmas” their rosebud lips were twisted into wishing everyone a “Happy Holidays”.

They became confused. Eyes welled up. Parents were furious. The song sheet had been expunged of all reference to the birth of Christ.

“We hope you have a Happy and Safe holiday. We wish you the best joy and zest and a wonderful New Year,” staff wrote.

Talk about the elephant in the room. They must have spent weeks working out how to avoid referring to the real reason for the holiday.

See the full article by Tracey Spicer at: http://tinyurl.com/7u6g2d6

The various comments following the article also make interesting reading.

BTW, the illustration is captioned with the words, "Christmas is as Aussie as dick stickers"
Will someone tell me what "dick stickers" are?
I can't help wondering if it is related to a particular kind of sexual activity?

[Xeno]

@Phroso: LINK (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dick+stickers)



It's the first time I'd seen the term used.It is also the first time I have ever heard of it, and I was raised on Sydney beaches.

Perhaps Ms T. Spicer was arguing with exquisite subtlety that christmas has no place here, or is a recent and unwanted imposition, especially given none of the characters in the picture appear in their garb to be conforming with the urbandictionary definition.

[simonecuttlefish]

From the article:
"I despair when it becomes a battle between militant atheists and God’s warriors."Because the Christian God, like all others, can't or won't do anything to 'correct' the situation. Sheesh - It's just like Gods don't even exist! Thank GOD we have people prepared to be warriors for an impotent god that is hiding itself.




These days, the Christmas celebration is a combination of religious and pagan rituals.
Erecting and decorating a tree, hanging wreaths, sending cards, giving presents and hanging mistletoe are all pagan rites; celebrating the birth of Jesus, the Feast of the Nativity and the Incarnation are Christian traditions."
Now I may be wrong here, please correct me if I am; I can't find where I read this. I thought the very early Christian churches tried to stamp out "Christmas" , as it was an out of control sex orgy festival carried over from another pagan celebration at the same time of year. Sex had been deemed filthy and immoral, because that's the sort of thing you do when you need to turn a religion into a mental illness. Take normal human behaviours like sexual desire and eating, and then heap shame and ridiculously intrusive rituals all over them so people will have to feel guilty and apologise for actually being homo-sapien. So some of the very early Christian churches were appalled that people were, in the name of their fantasy construct, having gang bangs.

Wouldn't Christmas be much more fun the old fashioned way though? You could watch your wife get screwed by the guy next door while rooting your best mates wife, and then he could screw you, and wash it all down in a torrent of wine and music and laughter?

BRING BACK TRADITIONAL CHRISTMAS!

[simonecuttlefish]

I love this story :)

And the plague keeps spreading here, with shopping centres, kindergartens, and governments determined to drive a wedge between those of different faiths.Plague? A celebration for the GOD OF PLAGUES?

Exodus 7:17-18

New King James Version (NKJV)

17 Thus says the LORD: “By this you shall know that I am the LORD. Behold, I will strike the waters which are in the river with the rod that is in my hand, and they shall be turned to blood. 18 And the fish that are in the river shall die, the river shall stink, and the Egyptians will loathe to drink the water of the river.”’” Exodus 8:1-4

New King James Version (NKJV)

Exodus 8
The Second Plague: Frogs
1 And the LORD spoke to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh and say to him, ‘Thus says the LORD: “Let My people go, that they may serve Me. 2 But if you refuse to let them go, behold, I will smite all your territory with frogs. 3 So the river shall bring forth frogs abundantly, which shall go up and come into your house, into your bedroom, on your bed, into the houses of your servants, on your people, into your ovens, and into your kneading bowls. 4 And the frogs shall come up on you, on your people, and on all your servants.”’”Exodus 8:16-17

New King James Version (NKJV)

The Third Plague: Lice

16 So the LORD said to Moses, “Say to Aaron, ‘Stretch out your rod, and strike the dust of the land, so that it may become lice throughout all the land of Egypt.’” 17 And they did so. For Aaron stretched out his hand with his rod and struck the dust of the earth, and it became lice on man and beast. All the dust of the land became lice throughout all the land of Egypt.Exodus 8:20-21

New King James Version (NKJV)

The Fourth Plague: Flies

20 And the LORD said to Moses, “Rise early in the morning and stand before Pharaoh as he comes out to the water. Then say to him, ‘Thus says the LORD: “Let My people go, that they may serve Me. 21 Or else, if you will not let My people go, behold, I will send swarms of flies on you and your servants, on your people and into your houses. The houses of the Egyptians shall be full of swarms of flies, and also the ground on which they stand.Exodus 9:1-3

New King James Version (NKJV)

Exodus 9
The Fifth Plague: Livestock Diseased
1 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh and tell him, ‘Thus says the LORD God of the Hebrews: “Let My people go, that they may serve Me. 2 For if you refuse to let them go, and still hold them, 3 behold, the hand of the LORD will be on your cattle in the field, on the horses, on the donkeys, on the camels, on the oxen, and on the sheep—a very severe pestilence.Exodus 9:8-12

New King James Version (NKJV)

The Sixth Plague: Boils

8 So the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, “Take for yourselves handfuls of ashes from a furnace, and let Moses scatter it toward the heavens in the sight of Pharaoh. 9 And it will become fine dust in all the land of Egypt, and it will cause boils that break out in sores on man and beast throughout all the land of Egypt.” 10 Then they took ashes from the furnace and stood before Pharaoh, and Moses scattered them toward heaven. And they caused boils that break out in sores on man and beast. 11 And the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils, for the boils were on the magicians and on all the Egyptians. 12 But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.Exodus 9:13-24

New King James Version (NKJV)

The Seventh Plague: Hail

13 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Rise early in the morning and stand before Pharaoh, and say to him, ‘Thus says the LORD God of the Hebrews: “Let My people go, that they may serve Me, 14 for at this time I will send all My plagues to your very heart, and on your servants and on your people, that you may know that there is none like Me in all the earth. 15 Now if I had stretched out My hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, then you would have been cut off from the earth. 16 But indeed for this purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth. 17 As yet you exalt yourself against My people in that you will not let them go. 18 Behold, tomorrow about this time I will cause very heavy hail to rain down, such as has not been in Egypt since its founding until now. 19 Therefore send now and gather your livestock and all that you have in the field, for the hail shall come down on every man and every animal which is found in the field and is not brought home; and they shall die.”’”
20 He who feared the word of the LORD among the servants of Pharaoh made his servants and his livestock flee to the houses. 21 But he who did not regard the word of the LORD left his servants and his livestock in the field.
22 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Stretch out your hand toward heaven, that there may be hail in all the land of Egypt—on man, on beast, and on every herb of the field, throughout the land of Egypt.” 23 And Moses stretched out his rod toward heaven; and the LORD sent thunder and hail, and fire darted to the ground. And the LORD rained hail on the land of Egypt. 24 So there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, so very heavy that there was none like it in all the land of Egypt since it became a nation.Exodus 10:3-6

New King James Version (NKJV)

3 So Moses and Aaron came in to Pharaoh and said to him, “Thus says the LORD God of the Hebrews: ‘How long will you refuse to humble yourself before Me? Let My people go, that they may serve Me. 4 Or else, if you refuse to let My people go, behold, tomorrow I will bring locusts into your territory. 5 And they shall cover the face of the earth, so that no one will be able to see the earth; and they shall eat the residue of what is left, which remains to you from the hail, and they shall eat every tree which grows up for you out of the field. 6 They shall fill your houses, the houses of all your servants, and the houses of all the Egyptians—which neither your fathers nor your fathers’ fathers have seen, since the day that they were on the earth to this day.’” And he turned and went out from Pharaoh.Exodus 10:21-23

New King James Version (NKJV)

The Ninth Plague: Darkness

21 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Stretch out your hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, darkness which may even be felt.” 22 So Moses stretched out his hand toward heaven, and there was thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days. 23 They did not see one another; nor did anyone rise from his place for three days. But all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings. And a personal favourite of mine ... INFANTICIDE!

Exodus 11:4-6

New King James Version (NKJV)

4 Then Moses said, “Thus says the LORD: ‘About midnight I will go out into the midst of Egypt; 5 and all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sits on his throne, even to the firstborn of the female servant who is behind the handmill, and all the firstborn of the animals. 6 Then there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as was not like it before, nor shall be like it again.I would NOT mention the term plague if I were you buddy :)

[Xeno]

@Xeno: If Spicer has Poed, then she has a goat-skin for the trophy room.She could hang it next to the cat-skin. I favour your "stupid-stocking-filler" as the explanation. :)

[Loki]

She'd be really, really pissed off at the gall of the Montessori spawn goes to, they didn't have a singalong at all, but a decadent travesty of a disco. To think, besmirching such a deeply religious and cultural event with the chicken dance. :D

Scuttle, the really ironic thing about the Egyptian plagues as reported in the bible is that they were ostensibly aimed at convincing Pharaoh to let the Israelites go, but not too fast. Pharaoh kept agreeing that they should just piss off so god had to keep artificially changing his mind so more cheap thrills from unnecessary suffering could be inflicted on the Egyptians. Talk about your god of love.

The bible then says the exodus amounted to more people than archaeology can find evidence for in the whole of Egypt at the time (2-2.5 million, the bible is only specific on the number of men available to fight wars, go figure), who then ran off to a small area of desert (200k x 300k) and then wandered around in ever decreasing circles for 40 years without leaving any trace whatsoever.

It all makes perfect sense to me. :rolleyes:

[simonecuttlefish]

...snip...

Scuttle, the really ironic thing about the Egyptian plagues as reported in the bible is that they were ostensibly aimed at convincing Pharaoh to let the Israelites go, but not too fast. Pharaoh kept agreeing that they should just piss off so god had to keep artificially changing his mind so more cheap thrills from unnecessary suffering could be inflicted on the Egyptians. Talk about your god of love.
...snip...

Oh yes. For a God that supposedly could have just snapped his fingers or however he casts magic spells (perhaps folding his arms and nodding and blinking like I dream of Genie?), and just set everyone free, he went about it the long way.

But this is Gods way - It's about "compliance" and "choice", so obviously the same thing in some peoples heads. The Egyptians had to "choose" to let them go, and God was going to torture them until they made the "right choice". In the end God had to commit infanticide and murder their first born before they "did the right thing" and "chose" to release them.

Compliance. It's the reason for the season. Maybe we should be singing Carols about a God that had himself incarnated as a human, and arranged a faked death to blame everyone else for, and then say human sacrifice is a good thing, and arranging to have your own son tortured and murdered, and blame everyone else for it is a happy joyous thing to venerate and celebrate in songs for school children.

It could have this line in it:
Fa La La La Laaa ... La Laaa Laaa Laaa (I can't hear you).

[owheelj]

"Holiday" as in "happy holidays", of course, comes from "holy day."

[senectus]

Not sure if you guys have seen this yet or not.. but its bloody hilarious (and a bit shocking)
http://perezitos.com/2011-12-13-jimmy-kimmel-tells-parents-to-give-their-children-terrible-christmas-presents/?from=PH

Jimmy Kimmel gets parents to give their kids really crap presents... just to see their reactions.

[owheelj]

Found the following while web surfing.

It's taken from the Landover Baptist Church Forum "Guaranteeing Salvation since 1620" and is a comment on the thread, "What is the worst holiday greeting?"

See: http://tinyurl.com/7m9w7cn

Pretty funny, which is what you'd expect, posted on the forum of a religious parody website.

[Loki]

"Holiday" as in "happy holidays", of course, comes from "holy day."

and Thursday comes from "Thor's Day". So is there some inbuilt etymological imperative for us to worship Thor on Thursdays*?




*Not that there's anything wrong with worship of Thor, the lack of extant ice giants is evidence enough for me.

[owheelj]

I think only on Thursdays that are also holidays.

But "holiday" is 13th C. (or at least, the old English equivalent is), and almost certainly referring to Christianity.

[4lan]

I think only on Thursdays that are also holidays.

But "holiday" is 13th C. (or at least, the old English equivalent is), and almost certainly referring to Christianity.

The origin of the word does follow from 'Holy day' according to my interwebs searches however its meaning (http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/holiday?q=holiday) now does not reference any religious aspect; which I think Loki is pointing out.

4lan

[owheelj]

Orly?

One could almost say the same for Christmas, and then wonder why there is a debate about saying "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Holidays" at all...

[4lan]

One could almost say the same for Christmas

Well perhaps you could suggest that but you'd probably fall foul (http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/Christmas?q=christmas) of a dictionary.

4lan

[Centauri]

wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiday) (and my bold)

The word holiday comes from the Old English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English) word hāligdæg. The word originally referred only to special religious days. In modern use, it means any special day of rest or relaxation, as opposed to normal days away from work or school.

[David Stasey]

Let's be charitable and imagine she was stuck for a good story, so she stuffed this turkey as full as she possibly could.

The stocking filler" hypothesis is probably right. She has previously identified as a wishy washy atheist (pretty much as I was myself before thinking it through) so probably doesn't really know what she thinks. She's just a talking head newsreader who dabbles in tabloid journalism.
In March she came out strongly against Chaplains and SRE/CRE and 12 months earlier bagged atheists for being too negative.
http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/dear-god-get-the-hell-out-of-our-schools/
http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/atheists-can-do-better-than-saying-believers-are-stupid/

[Xeno]

and Thursday comes from "Thor's Day". So is there some inbuilt etymological imperative for us to worship Thor on Thursdays*?

*Not that there's anything wrong with worship of Thor, the lack of extant ice giants is evidence enough for me.I looked up the etymology of Thursday and it was attributed by the AOD to Jupiter from Old English Thunraesdaeg, or thunder day, although Thor seems as likely given he had the same attribute. Apparently each of the days related to named gods (all days except Sun and Moon days, i.e. Sunday - Monday) is also the day holy to that god, on which you prayed (or paid passing ceremonial lip-service) to that god preferentially in both Roman and Norse traditions. This is distinct from feast days such as at the solstices, also usually associated with a particular god or goddess. Thus, haeligdaeg was probably in the first instance a generic term used in concert with the particular god to whom that day or feast was holy. Naturally, this applied also to judaism and christianity which adopted Saturday and Sunday for their one god. Thus, holiday is not specifically related to christianity or christmas but rather the natural word to use, like referring to Vishnu as a god. There is tons of information on Wikipedia about names of days themselves.

[owheelj]

Well perhaps you could suggest that but you'd probably fall foul (http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/Christmas?q=christmas) of a dictionary.

4lan

Sure, but for many people, such as most of the atheists on this forum, celebrating "Christmas" doesn't mean celebrating the birth of Christ. It's possible, and indeed common, to just celebrate it in essentially a secular manner while still calling it Christmas, just as the term "holiday" initially referred to "holy days," but now also refers to secular days.

In essence, arguments about whether "Merry Christmas", "Happy Holidays" or other variants are, in some manner, offensive, is silly.

[wearestardust]

It is, of course, the start of the annual beat-up over banning Christmas. The article that Spice actually links to makes this clear. Embarrassingly in one of my comments I linked to the same article to demonstrate that it's a beat-up - thus demonstrating, as I also commented, that neither of us read the article in the first place.

[Justtristo]

If I were in charge of nation, I would ban the celebrating of religious holidays whether (Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Pagan etc) by government institutions. Celebrations by private individuals and organizations is another matter. Although all up I do find it very interesting that we have offical public holidays for protestant religious holidays, but we dont for specific Catholic ones, let alone Muslim, Jewish or Buddhist religious holidays.

Personally since I am an humanist, the only holidays I celebrate now is Anzac* and Labour days. Because even celebrating Christmas as Saturnalia or the Summer/Winter solstice is still seen as celebrating a religious holiday.

* I believe Australia Day should be moved to January 1st when federation occurred in 1901 or when ever we finally become a Republic.

[4lan]

Sure, but for many people, such as most of the atheists on this forum, celebrating "Christmas" doesn't mean celebrating the birth of Christ. It's possible, and indeed common, to just celebrate it in essentially a secular manner while still calling it Christmas, just as the term "holiday" initially referred to "holy days," but now also refers to secular days.

Then 'they' would also fall foul of a dictionary. And there is no 'just as', I pointed out above that word christmas' meaning has not changed to exclude the religious context.

In essence, arguments about whether "Merry Christmas", "Happy Holidays" or other variants are, in some manner, offensive, is silly.

I'm not disagreeing with or judging seasonal salutations or similar offers of sentiment. I am simply stating that celebrating a holiday is by definition being cheery about a period of leisure and recreation while celebrating chirstmas is observance of a christian festival.

Perhaps I take too long developing my point, if so I offer my regret.

4lan.

[owheelj]

The MacQuarie Dictionary offers 6 definitions for "Christmas," including this one;

2. 25 of December (Christmas Day), now generally observed as an occasion for gifts, greetings etc.

(Revised third edition, page 359). I'd be surprised if the full Oxford dictionary doesn't offer similar definitions as well.

(Not that any of this is relevant to my point).

edit; Only the first definition has any explicate mention of anything religion.

[Xeno]

...if so I offer my regret.Alan, 'r' appears in christmas while egrets are small birds which are white, like storks, and may be associated traditionally with babies if not baby egrets. Therefore, you have made an egregious reference to birth at christmas, and white stuff, and should self-chastise; cabernet at a timely hour is suggested for the purpose.

[two dogs]

....
I'd be surprised if the full Oxford dictionary doesn't offer similar definitions as well.
...

Here's the entry for Christmas from the CD-ROM version of the full Oxford dictionary (i.e. the Oxford English Dictionary).

http://julian-jordan.net/images/Christmas.jpg

[4lan]

Alan, 'r' appears in christmas while egrets are small birds which are white, like storks, and may be associated traditionally with babies if not baby egrets. Therefore, you have made an egregious reference to birth at christmas, and white stuff, and should self-chastise; cabernet at a timely hour is suggested for the purpose.

Goodness, I re-read my text so many times (which probably caused the delay in the first place) only to make a mistake anyway! Thankfully it could have been worse, I could have been a spelling pedant instead.

Your suggestion is duly noted, I will make preparations forth with.

4lan

[simonecuttlefish]

I don't really care about what it's called, that it's plastered all over the place and dreadfully tacky in terms of advertising, consumerism and hideous decorations, or a mishmash of co-opted pagan festivals bunched up into newer festival claimed by Christians or not. I really don't have a problem with it. The raging sex fest orgy part of the early Christmas celebrations could even be re-included perhaps. That wouldn't bother me either.

I know it's been posted repeatedly before, but the following is an equally valid way to do Christmas.

fCNvZqpa-7Q

[Rowan]

Correct me if im wrong.

Ive been told countless times that christmas is a christian holiday. Ive been told its the birth of jesus christ and the celebrations should be in honor of this occasion. If we do in fact live in a secular society, then why is it that christmas has become so ingrained into our society? I was brought up to believe in christmas being about santa and celebrating the holidays with family and loved ones. Being an Atheist and having a better understanding of the world, I ask of you, would celebrating christmas for anything other than what it was originally recognized as be ignorant and hypocritical of me just because I was raised to believe it to be a non-religious event?

Looking forward to what I expect to be a very simple answer.

[Loki]

vWQuDtxD2-c

[ABridgeTooFar]

Christmas isn't exclusively a Christian holiday. Sure, they celebrate the birth of one of their prophets on that day. But no-one even knows when Jesus was born (they have a rough idea, and it's not december).

Christianity took the December 25th holiday from previous religions. If anything it's a pagan holiday.

You are just as...if not...more entitled to worship the pagan sun gods on December 25th as they are to worship Jesus.

And you are right, this is a secular country. Christmas isn't given special Christian treatment under our laws. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is flat-out lying.

Lastly, if you are looking to attach some sort of secular meaning to Christmas, maybe look to here.

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edit: LOL too late...

[Loki]

Snap! :)

[Mjt]

Rowan, there's a perfectly good thread, in which this material's been gone over before.

I'm joining your thread to that one.Waste not want not Mr B:D

Being an Atheist and having a better understanding of the world, I ask of you, would celebrating christmas for anything other than what it was originally recognized as be ignorant and hypocritical of me just because I was raised to believe it to be a non-religious event?

Looking forward to what I expect to be a very simple answer.
Who might think you ignorant and do they matter? Chrissy is fun! Eat, drink and be merry.just enjoy

[Rowan]

Who might think you ignorant and do they matter? Chrissy is fun! Eat, drink and be merry.just enjoy

Anyone and everyone who reminds me "the true meaning of christmas"

[Xeno]

Anyone and everyone who reminds me "the true meaning of christmas"The true meaning of 22 August is that it is my birthday. Furthermore, I can authenticate the fact in several ways. So, why the fuck would you care unless you knew me? Even if you knew me it is still your choice what you think of it.

As pointed out, Australia has no religious holidays. They are trying to impose on you, as they do.

[ABridgeTooFar]

Anyone and everyone who reminds me "the true meaning of christmas"

If you are so worried about it. I recommend doing some research on the history of Christmas (dec 25th). When you are aware of it's origins, you can be the one lecturing them on it's "true, traditional meaning".