School Chaplaincy

[DavidB]

I am afraid that I am depressed again at today's announcement that the FedGov will again fund the school chaplaincy programme until 2011 to the tune of $42.8 million of public funds. I have written to the editors of a couple of major papers here in Tasmania but even if my letters are printed, what good will it do when we have a PM that actually believes in creationism over evolution?

[Sal]

Yes, I think that we have to demand (by direct action, if necessary) a stop to this disgrace in our public schools.

It doesn't affect my children, but I would hate to see the most vulnerable of Australia's youth being indoctrinated by xtian ideology.

If people truly think that their children need some form of counselor, perhaps they could take them to the appropriate person - out of school.

If said parents are members of a faith, I'm sure their religious leader would be more than willing to provide spiritual guidance. Let the rest of us take our kids to a qualified social worker!

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

I am afraid that I am depressed again at today's announcement that the FedGov will again fund the school chaplaincy programme until 2011 to the tune of $42.8 million of public funds. I have written to the editors of a couple of major papers here in Tasmania but even if my letters are printed, what good will it do when we have a PM that actually believes in creationism over evolution?Unfortunately there is no PM available who is not a religious nutcase. I am also pissed off at this. That is what my tax is going into. I don't want to support the religious nutcases. But the stupid government is making me. I know how that feels.

[sjbeach]

My son's state secondary college has one of those chaplains. He showed up at the funeral of a parent of a current student recently. Nice guy, but I would have serious reservations about him consoling students regarding death. The generic school counsellor was an option you had to request. I have asked why she was not present, but am awaiting a reply.

[Sascha]

Ridiculous. I didn't know chaplaincy was so institutionalised. First I ever heard of one was at a high school in rural WA so naturally I just assumed it was an occasional thing.

$42.8 million isn't exactly occasional. :mad:

[robertkd]

Ridiculous. I didn't know chaplaincy was so institutionalised. First I ever heard of one was at a high school in rural WA so naturally I just assumed it was an occasional thing.

$42.8 million isn't exactly occasional. :mad:

Well that kinda depends if your mr KRud and of course if it's not actually your money, seems these sort of funding activities are better funded with our money,... apparently!

BTW I think the previous school chaplaincy project funding was something like $160M these god bother-ers aren't exactly cheap, I wonder if the project extends to is-lambs and jewish faiths??

http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showpost.php?p=37586&postcount=1

[Lapin]

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,26379683-5003402,00.html

The program also received a glowing report from the National School Chaplaincy Association (NSCA) survey, which examined the effectiveness of the program in government schools.

Well that's a surprise, the school chaplains think there own program is good. It's no surprise these guys are popular with the students when they have none of the accountability burdens of teachers and can just let students play video games and have a good time.

It's also no surprise that school principals are supportive of a system that gives them an extra person on their staff that they don't have to pay for out of their overstretched school budget. They'd be grateful for any kind of help.

[Sal]

Perhaps people (ie. parents - even on a small scale) should take their children out of the school system in protest.

I guarantee that you will find a pleasant improvement in eduction when all the 'fluff' is taken out of the equation.:D

[teckel]

I'm from a Black Saturday affected community, and the number of chaplains floating around here is obscene - trying to capitalise on the distress and grief being suffered by so many. I don't know how they're being funded. There are also a lot of trained psychologists and secular counsellors, so there is absolutely no need for these preying opportunists.

[DanDare]

I'm from a Black Saturday affected community, and the number of chaplains floating around here is obscene - trying to capitalise on the distress and grief being suffered by so many. I don't know how they're being funded. There are also a lot of trained psychologists and secular counsellors, so there is absolutely no need for these preying opportunists.
Its easy to get cynical, I know, but many of the chaplains do believe what they are doing is good, and really are giving of themselves. That still doesn't mean we have to agree with them of course. Their organisations are manipulative and there is a concerted campaign against secularism powering through this country.

If you want to do something about it from within politics go talk to the Secular Party of Australia (http://www.secular.org.au/). If you want to be involved with some citizen activism help get the Australian Secular Lobby (http://australiansecularlobby.com/) off the ground.

[Caio]

@ Robertkid

Chaplains/pastoral care workers provide general personal and religious advice, comfort and support to all students and staff, regardless of their religious denomination, irrespective of their religious beliefs. The choice of chaplaincy services, including the religious affiliation, was a decision for the local school community, following broad consultation. Students are not obliged to participate. Parents and students will be informed about the availability and non-compulsory nature of the chaplaincy services.

Link (http://www.deewr.gov.au/Schooling/NationalSchoolChaplaincyProgram/Pages/home.aspx)

[TWrecks]

Thanks for that link Caio. I've just learnt that the chaplains Federal Government funded budget is $54,000 at my wifes state school. Her budget for her department is $12,000, with which they struggle to help special needs kids. Fucking brilliant, eh?

[DanDare]

Chaplains/pastoral care workers provide general personal and religious advice, comfort and support to all students and staff, regardless of their religious denomination, irrespective of their religious beliefs. The choice of chaplaincy services, including the religious affiliation, was a decision for the local school community, following broad consultation. Students are not obliged to participate. Parents and students will be informed about the availability and non-compulsory nature of the chaplaincy services.

1) Students are not obligated to participate: The groups that provide the chaplains have an avowed mission to bring jesus to the unchurched. At many schools I find the consent forms are manipulated such that saying no to the chaplain is also saying no to school excursions etc for your child.

2) They have a vested interest in getting around the "neutrality" part of this and there are no checks on their behaviour.

3) Chaplains have no qualifications to do counselling and are forbidden to do so, but they are doing it anyway.

4) Chaplains are acting as a trojan horse to bring others into the school. At many schools they are bringing in "mentors" who are not screened or ascented to. They hold out of school events for the kids that include a fair deal of grooming and eventually conversion without knowledge of the parents.

5) They fund raise for their activities with disguised names for where the funds go. The students are the main contributors who are made to feel like "outsiders" if they don't contribute.

6) The chaplains are placed in charge of the various school outreach programs, changing them from secular assistance to kids and families in need to religious ones.

[DanDare]

Relevant media release from the Australian Secular Lobby (http://australiansecularlobby.com)

Rudd encourages school chaplains to keep undermining secular public schooling: sends his child to private school

The Australian Secular Lobby welcomes Prime Minister Rudd's caution in not simply handing over Commonwealth Government policy making, and agreeing to the ambit log-of-claims for yet another of $300 million of scarce ATO tax-monies to be gifted to the Coalition's friends from various rightwing evangelical Christian bodies, such as the Australian Christian Lobby, Catch The Fire Ministry, and Scripture Union, to provide evangelical missionaries to ‘unchurched’ students in public schools.

However, that Mr. Rudd freely chooses to emulate John Howard and Julie Bishop's simplistic assault on Australia's secular public school system by insisting that school chaplains are the answer to so many complex educational and social issues that his Education Minister, Julia Gillard, is failing to address, is a continuing blight on the idea of secular public schools.

Since October this year, the Coalition and extremist evangelical bodies have been lobbying to squeeze $300 million from Mr. Rudd, to extend the Howard NSCP school chaplaincy plan. It seems that no one either in the ALP, or the broad media, has thought to ask the Coalition why Howard and Bishop only thought to fund the exercise until mid 2010, a political decision if ever one was.

While Mr. Rudd thinks school chaplains are needed in public schools, Julia Gillard's department has failed to seek, or provide, any evidence to show the scheme is needed.

Ms. Gillard has been advised of many breaches of her DEEWR NSCP guidelines but prefers to turn a blind eye and not respond to any concerns.

A report commissioned by the self-interested employers of state school chaplains (http://www.suact.org.au/pdf/ChaplaincyReport09.pdf) has been conducted under the respectable banner of Edith Cowan University, but it is clear from the commentary conducted since October that only one favourable line in this 'research' has ever been read by any politician, the one that refers to 97% of school principals supporting school chaplains.

The Vice Chancellor of Edith Cowan University has been asked to endorse this 'research' as being of the highest quality that ECU could produce. To date, Professor Cox has declined to support this self-interested 'research' and appears to have distanced ECU from it.

Professor Cox is faced with a real dilemma. If he endorses the 'research', academics around the world might reasonably question the ECU Research Committee standards. If he fails to endorse it, the lone argument relied upon by Mr. Rudd, Ms. Gillard, Mr. Turnbull and Mr. Christopher Pyne, along with the Australian Christian Lobby and Scripture Union, crumbles to dust.

So long as no one in the media or politics reads the 'research' and continues to rely on the October 13 ABC news report from Mark Colvin's PM (http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2009/s2713133.htm) program that has been repeated daily as 'proof', the Emperor will continue to be fully clothed.

Mr. Rudd chooses to send his own child to an exclusive private Canberra school, so would not have any first-hand experience of school chaplains at work, or the work state school principals and Julia Gillard allow them to do, frequently in breach of her own guidelines, and also ethical standards, at times.

Mr. Rudd's blanket support for the ATO funded evangelical Christian assault on secular public schooling sees school chaplains evangelise and proselytise, as their employers require them to do, in secular public schools, and in breach of DEEWR and state government policies.

In Queensland, chaplains can:
• conduct evangelistic Scripture Union Christian programs authored by SU specifically for ‘unchurched’ (SU term) children during school hours upon State school students as young as four years old (Prep year to Year 12)
• oversee the 'Smart Food' policy
• supervise the 'officially sanctioned vandalism' of 'muck-up' day
• take photographs of male students posing in their underwear and post the photographs on Facebook
• organise gendered sexist programs written and owned by Hillsong Church including the controversial, evangelical SHINE program (run in place of compulsory school sport in Qld)
• counsel suicidal students with only a 'working with children' Blue Card
• take over school assemblies and compel students to recite Christian prayers irrespective of what they and their parents may think
• impose Christian prayers on students and parents at the Year 12 Graduation Ceremony and Prize Giving nights
• freely proselytise to recruit what Scripture Union refer to as 'unchurched' students to the church and extremist Christian boot camps
• run constant fund-raising for Scripture Union coffers including online credit card ‘tithing’ forms on Education Queensland school websites
• and numerous other activities that go far beyond John Howard's 'friend in the playground' description.

Scripture Union has recently moved into its own building in Brisbane after years of renting, and now has a massive staff to pay for. Scripture Union Queensland openly and often not only describes NSCP funded State school chaplaincy as a ‘ministry’—it runs it as such.

Mr. Rudd has openly expressed his concern about aspects of Scientology: as the High Court judges pointed out in the Scientology case, the price of religious freedom brings many charlatans with it.

Mr. Rudd needs to re-examine the initial basis for school chaplains and the NSCP scheme, address the many breaches of NSCP policy, and answer to those parents and students who are not interested in having public schools regarded as 'missionfields' in which Scripture Union is given open access to recruit for their various evangelical church supporters.

The last word as to why Queensland State school children need to hear the word of Jesus via NSCP funded Scripture Union Queensland chaplains is best left to left to Scripture Union Queensland Southern & Western Qld Regional Director Jenny Clark:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QnQlecTmJs

Regards,
Hugh Wilson & Ron Williams
Australian Secular Lobby (ASL)

[Brad]

I'm not happy with the situation as it's been described. But I did check out the web page for the Chaplaincy program to check the facts before I wrote to the Labor Party, and it does say:

The choice of chaplaincy services, including the religious affiliation, was a decision for the local school community, following broad consultation.

My kids are out of school now, so I've no direct experience of the pogram. Is there anyone here who was involved in selecting the chaplain (or secular pastoral care worker as it's also described)?

[DavidB]

I'm not happy with the situation as it's been described. But I did check out the web page for the Chaplaincy program to check the facts before I wrote to the Labor Party, and it does say:

The choice of chaplaincy services, including the religious affiliation, was a decision for the local school community, following broad consultation.

My kids are out of school now, so I've no direct experience of the pogram. Is there anyone here who was involved in selecting the chaplain (or secular pastoral care worker as it's also described)?

:rolleyes:
I reckon you are right Brad but which cash-strapped school principle in her/his right mind would turn down the offer of thousands of dollars to pay for an extra member of staff?

I notice that further up this tread someone said that children have the option of NOT seeing a chaplain if they didn't want to. Again, how many children would know whether or not they should see a chaplain at school?

[DanDare]

I'm not happy with the situation as it's been described. But I did check out the web page for the Chaplaincy program to check the facts before I wrote to the Labor Party, and it does say:

The choice of chaplaincy services, including the religious affiliation, was a decision for the local school community, following broad consultation.

My kids are out of school now, so I've no direct experience of the pogram. Is there anyone here who was involved in selecting the chaplain (or secular pastoral care worker as it's also described)?
The process went like this at my daughters school.

The admin prayer group got a small P&C group to decide we wanted a chaplain. A survey was made of a small sample of school parents (the ones that go to church). Some of the children were also crowded into a room and told they were getting a chaplain, hands up who thinks that's a good idea.

Then a "vote" was conducted. Not all parents got the ballot. I didn't nor any of the other atheist parents I knew. The vote was handed over openly to admin staff who were known to be members of the prayer group. The vote was 90% yes. The wording on the ballot was actually about weather the P&C should contribute extra funds, not about if there should be a chaplain at all. I found out about it after the event.

Next P&C meeting all concerned parents are there and we try to have this halted but the principle wants the money. As a compromise we have a revote. It will be secret ballot, mailed to ALL families and come with a yes and no case. The no case is as tight as I can make it to fit on one page. It is cut down to one paragraph and sent out.

The vote is about 30% yes, 25% no, 45% abstain. This is considered a substantial support for a chaplain and one is selected.

Since then the form for consent has been rigged, the Gideons have been invited into the school without notice handing bibles to the kids, and on and on.

All in all pretty shabby, and it should not come down to a vote. A public school is a mix of many faiths and lack of them. Each group is a minority and so all should be protected from imposition of this sort. There is no need for these spirit guides. The people who want it can take their kids to church.

There was no consultation at all as to the faith of the chaplain. We got a pentacostal, the usual Scripture Union fare

[robertkd]

You are kidding me that railroading,... :eek:

[Brad]

Hell's teeth. I wouldn't have been happy with that...

[DanDare]

Yeah, well its that that has driven me to get political and "militant" about it. Secularism is getting a bashing in this school and in many other schools. One of the difficult things is parents who don't want a confrontation that may get their kids picked on. That is the reason why secularism is important, so those parents are not put in that position.

[Podblack]

People seen this article?

Court challenge to Schools Chaplaincy Program
http://www.starobserver.com.au/news/2010/03/31/court-to-rule-on-religious-schooling/23447

[davo]

I've seen it, I am interested and will post what I have done before, as I think it is missing in the discussion and I should really ask them what the lawyers think about it :

The school chapliancy issue already went to High court over 'breaching s.116 the consitution' :

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/high_ct/146clr559.html

failed. check it out, an example line from the High Court judge decision :

"What the Constitution (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/coaca430/) prohibits is the making of a law for establishing a religion. This, it seems to me, does not involve a prohibition of any law which may assist the practice of a religion and, in particular, of the Christian religion. It is the establishment of such a religion which may not be effected by a law of the Commonwealth designed to do so. I have already, though perhaps only incidentally, indicated that the text of s. 116 (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/coaca430/s116.html) refers to legislation which is designed to establish a religion, which intends and seeks that end, which is in that sense purposive in nature. I have concluded, therefore, that, even on the assumptions I have made, the challenge to the validity of the Acts here challenged should fail."

In other words, it is seen and read in direct relation to what happened in England with the state setting up a religious body as compared to the support of them, and that is ALL this section of the constitution protects us against, according to this precedent set by a High Court Judge.

This is what the http://highcourtchallenge.com will be confronting I gather, past precedent, the fundies know this precedent too, wish I could find a recent reference I came across that actually mentioned it, can't remember where tho :( think it was a christian blog

[Loki]

Section 116 says:

The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.

The challenge which failed (on very flimsy grounds in my unqualified opinion) was based on the phrase "shall not make any law for establishing any religion".

I'm fairly sure (but am unaware of the minutae) from something said at the GAC that the current challenge is directed at the phrase "or for imposing any religious observance" (I've bolded it in the legislation above).

[Caio]

Section 116 says:
I'm fairly sure (but am unaware of the minutae) from something said at the GAC that the current challenge is directed at the phrase "or for imposing any religious observance" (I've bolded it in the legislation above).

But therein still lies a problem, the courts in Aus ruled on a very narrow definition of what section 116 was saying. It refers to establishing any national religion, like a Church of England say, to instead meaning here in Aus that all religions will be treated equally...what we need is a constitutional amendment to fix the problem, 116 if flawed all the way down to the meaning of the word "for", and im not exaggerating.

[Jez]

Ahh, what a silly silly idea this is...

You know what? I'm actually not that worried about high school students being indoctrinated or taught creationism, you know why? I know teenagers [being one myself] they are not going to take this seriously at all...
They will simply laugh in the face of the fundi's. I think you will find that today's youth generally don't believe in GOD sure they are not as voiced as I, but in the communities I have been a part of the majority of people aren't religious. I don't know why, maybe its too much effort on our behalf or it simply doesn't make sense, I don't know. But I remember at one school assembly some crazy people were handing out bibles to the students, and what did they do to them? ripped them to pieces, graffitied them to pieces, set them on fire, basically they were destroyed...no one took them seriously.

Look I know it may affect some, but i believe that its impossible to stop them at every corner, if we stop them in school they will just preach at the street corner

But more importantly, I worry about the priests in primary schools, these kids are at a young age, we all know how gullible they are....accident waiting to happen...

$50 grand per school, now what could be used for? A new computer lab? Books for a library? And the $40 mil? Don't get me started with what that could be used for, the possibilities are endless....

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Although our tax money is being used to fund those fucks! That's why I want the program abolished. And besides, there are a few teenagers who are absolute creotards and will believe anything Christians tell them. I have met quite a few in my life.

[Jez]

And besides, there are a few teenagers who are absolute creotards and will believe anything Christians tell them. I have met quite a few in my life.

I believe that most of them are in a christian school, where they will get this treatment anyways, in the state school area, you aren't going to find many...

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

I saw many in the state schools I was in. Two Christian schools, two state schools. That's what I got.

Sure there are more creotards in the Christian schools, but in state schools, where rullijiss ejyoocayshun prevails, there are quite a large number of creotards. Having met a few at state schools in NSW I can tell.

Unless all of a sudden, within the last few years, they changed something.

[Sanity personified]

I will support to the fullest extent anything that will remove these chaplains from our schools.

[Jez]

I saw many in the state schools I was in. Two Christian schools, two state schools. That's what I got.

Sure there are more creotards in the Christian schools, but in state schools, where rullijiss ejyoocayshun prevails, there are quite a large number of creotards. Having met a few at state schools in NSW I can tell.

Unless all of a sudden, within the last few years, they changed something.

I just put rullijiss ejyoocayshun into wikipedia and wondered why nothing came up, then i read it properly lol

Anyways, it is silly of me to assume that I know every single teenager, thats not going to happen. What I am saying is that teenagers these days just aren't interested in religion and those that are, are interested because they have been brought up that way. To convert someone at a teen age will be a lot harder than it would be than if you try when they were younger e.g. primary school.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

I just put rullijiss ejyoocayshun into wikipedia and wondered why nothing came up, then i read it properly lol

Anyways, it is silly of me to assume that I know every single teenager, thats not going to happen. What I am saying is that teenagers these days just aren't interested in religion and those that are, are interested because they have been brought up that way. To convert someone at a teen age will be a lot harder than it would be than if you try when they were younger e.g. primary school.When I was still a teen, I found it hard enough to understand the babble and bullshit of the whorely buybull.

To this day, if you pick up a buybull and turn it to any random page, you will get something about God doing something silly to another person, a sacrifice, exorcisms, etc GUARANTEED! If anybody says "Oh none of that is in the bible" then they haven't read it.

I suppose one reason teens (who either weren't indoctinated into this shit, or rejected this shit) don't bother is because they don't see any reason.

Funny enough, many happen to be smarter than their parents too I reckon.

[Jez]

When I was still a teen, I found it hard enough to understand the babble and bullshit of the whorely buybull.

To this day, if you pick up a buybull and turn it to any random page, you will get something about God doing something silly to another person, a sacrifice, exorcisms, etc GUARANTEED! If anybody says "Oh none of that is in the bible" then they haven't read it.

I suppose one reason teens (who either weren't indoctinated into this shit, or rejected this shit) don't bother is because they don't see any reason.

Funny enough, many happen to be smarter than their parents too I reckon.

Buybull is like bestbuy and Big W right? :P

I like to think I'm smarter than my parents, yes.

Just found this:

"The problem with state accommodation of religion – even so called moderate religious leaderships – is that they work against and not for equality and justice."
-Pragna Patel

Rather good point if I may say so myself

[riddlemethis]

Perhaps people (ie. parents - even on a small scale) should take their children out of the school system in protest.

I guarantee that you will find a pleasant improvement in eduction when all the 'fluff' is taken out of the equation.:D

Done & done! It isn't an option for everyone though, secular private schools are just as expensive as religious ones.

[Major Wedgie]

The only way to combat this problem is to get politicised and organised (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=4468) as a group. Last time I posted a thread here suggesting that, people said that we would be just like them, so just get used to it everybody, school chaplaincy is here to stay, because we can't get our shit together. When you're voting, bloody find out the secular policy of the person your voting for because both major parties support the chaplaincy program.

[riddlemethis]

The only way to combat this problem is to get politicised and organised (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=4468) as a group. Last time I posted a thread here suggesting that, people said that we would be just like them, so just get used to it everybody, school chaplaincy is here to stay, because we can't get our shit together. When you're voting, bloody find out the secular policy of the person your voting for because both major parties support the chaplaincy program.

As a group of what MW? A group of atheists? A group of politically aware parents/citizens? A group of secularists? I'm already an active supporter of the Secular Party and have written to Julia Gillard & K Rudd about this issue letting them know that their decision to continue using the secular school system as a means to prozelytise to children is a vote breaker for me. I've also removed my children to the independant schools system, to a school with an expressly secular curriculum. Within our school this is a frequent discussion & we are a group of some 200 families (some of whom are privately religious even) who've made the choice to vote with our feet. Sadly people are actually more worried about a distorted reporting of school standards than they are being involved in their kids education & actually knowing what is going on in their schools - they are all too busy being busy.

[Major Wedgie]

I just did a bit of a ring around of Greens offices to find out what their position is on the Chaplaincy program. They provided me with this link:
http://www.watoday.com.au/national/greens-push-for-counsellors-not-chaplains-20100326-r37m.html

[66 vegie]

Max Wallace is trying to fight the school chaplaincy program.

Mr Wallace was at the Atheist convention..his book is " The Purple Economy."

Hope people who attended the convention got a copy...it opened my eye's to were my tax's is going.

[DanDare]

News on the High Court Challenge to the National School Chaplaincy Program.
Writs are close to being issued.
We now have a PayPal button for donations at http://highcourtchallenge.com/

I've had the Gideons handing out bibles again at my daughters state school. My last formal complaint has not been dealt with, so its time to escalate. Its very difficult, having had secular removed from the education act here in Queensland, but the fight continues!

[Fromm_Nicht]

I just did a bit of a ring around of Greens offices to find out what their position is on the Chaplaincy program. They provided me with this link:
http://www.watoday.com.au/national/greens-push-for-counsellors-not-chaplains-20100326-r37m.html

Bob Brown for Prime Minister anybody??

[riddlemethis]

Bob Brown for Prime Minister anybody??

If only! I'd even settle for him as deputy in a coalition.

[Membrain]

Hi all,
just posting this here (moved to more relevant thread, didn't see these).

At our local State school, a chaplain is employed (I think the school got K$60 over 3 years for him), presumably supported by the christian P&C. He wanders around the school yard chatting to students and befriending them. But he also apparently is called upon to say prayers before certain whole-school events (i.e. not just groups of willing participants).

I seem to recall reading somewhere that this was not on, but I can't find it now. I don't like my child (or others who aren't yet religious) being exposed to this stuff; do I have any recourse or do I just have to suck it up because we are part of a minority group (the school community would be dominated by christians if it came to a vote, certainly if it was a vote conducted within the motivated and stackable P&C). Any links to relevant rules for this? TIA.

[RealityRules]

Annie started a thread elsewhere today with this link

http://australiansecularlobby.com/2010-06-28_PM.html

Annie's thread - http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=6340

[DanDare]

Just in from Ron W.

Over the weekend, Education Queensland replaced their chaplaincy policy. The changes have been extensive—and appalling.

Parental consent and opting out has all but gone. There is a PDF form for not participating in:

· voluntary participation in any activity that includes prayer or religious readings
· voluntary attendance at ceremonies or rituals with religious foundation or content.

That’s it!.. and this form can (apparently as a first option) be signed by the student, stated within the form thus:

“If the principal decides that the student has the appropriate level of maturity and understanding to give informed consent, the student must sign this form themselves. Otherwise, the parent must sign the form on the student’s behalf.”

So our kids could sign-off on Shine, Strength or Jesus A Friend For All (JAFFA) and we need never know. As for the supposed ‘non-religious’ chaplaincy activities, there is now no method of opting-out. We have no control over chaplains wandering in and out of, and participating in, our children’s classrooms and the myriad other ‘activities’ that go on (unmentioned in school newsletters etc.).

Here is the new chaplaincy policy page:

http://education.qld.gov.au/strategic/eppr/schools/scmpr012/

And here is the new ‘consent’ form:

http://education.qld.gov.au/strategic/eppr/schools/scmpr012/cp2.pdf

So it’s now pretty much ‘open slather’ for chaplains in Queensland state schools. It is now blatantly religious, and anything but ‘voluntary’.

[Membrain]

I don't understand what the big change is - apart from the appalling bit where the principal can bypass parental consent by arbitrarily deciding that the student 'must' (??!) sign the form themselves.

But you seem concerned about something else - it appears the student still needs the form to opt in? Or have I read your post wrong, is it 'just' the inclusion of the student consent part that is the problem? (and I agree, it is a very strange and problematic inclusion - I wonder if they will extend the same courtesy to sex education if the principal decides the student has the 'appropriate level of maturity'?!).
Can you please expand, Ta.

[atheist_angel]

“If the principal decides that the student has the appropriate level of maturity and understanding to give informed consent, the student must sign this form themselves. Otherwise, the parent must sign the form on the student’s behalf.” If no one minds, have some questions, myself. :confused:

What age group is this program for?

Is there an age requirement for self-signing - or is that just at the principal's whim, too?

Are students required to reach a certain reading-level before they are permitted to self-sign - or do they even care?

This type of form appears to open the door for all kinds of abuses. Teachers can just "tell" the class to sign the form. Nowhere did I see where it states that they have to "explain" to the students, for the benefit of those students who may not understand, that consent and participation is optional - or did I miss it somewhere?

Thanks for baring with my questions. :cool:

[Seamus]

I have a teeny question too:

On what basis does school principle abrogate a basic legal concept? IE legal infancy.In this country a person under 18 years cannot enter a legal contract. Over18 parental permission is not needed. (unless it's something they are paying for) A person under 18 years is a legal infant.Signing a consent form has no standing as far as I'm aware..

I hope a livid parent challenges the arrogant moron in court.

[Praxis]

I am hoping Bob Brown mentions this whole odious thing at some stage of the election campaign.

It needs to be kept in the public's eye.

[DanDare]

Chaplains work in public schools from K to 12.

Previously parents had to sign a form for their children to have contact with a chaplain. The chaplain could not "preside" over regular school activities.

Now the headmaster may allow the child to give consent without parental knowledge. This is only for consent to engage in full on religious activity. No consent is required now for day to day engagement with the chaplain and the chaplain may preside over assemblies, sports and enter class rooms to otherwise engage with students without consent.

[Membrain]

Does this also not give 'mature' children (as determined by the principal) the right to IGNORE their parents wishes either way - surely many children will therefore choose NOT to join in the Chaplains religious activities even if their parents want them to?

In terms of day to day engagement with the chaplain, whilst I abhor the fact that they are in the schools, its probably too much to expect them not to interact with the kids in a community kind of way. I can't imagine reasonably objecting to my kids being around for example, an indigenous person, or a buddhist, or a cattle farmer, or a policeofficer, who comes to the school to share their world views with interested students, and who then presides over a whole school assembly (but doesn't preach). We know they may be doing it just to build a good relationship with the students to make them more receptive to their ideas, but in the end the world is full of people with ulterior motives and the kids have to be taught to think critically for themselves, avoiding all contact is probably a bit too much to expect. As long as the religious activities are strictly off limits.

[DanDare]

Does this also not give 'mature' children (as determined by the principal) the right to IGNORE their parents wishes either way - surely many children will therefore choose NOT to join in the Chaplains religious activities even if their parents want them to?
Sure. It also makes it very easy for the authority figures to coerce the student into signing.

In terms of day to day engagement with the chaplain, whilst I abhor the fact that they are in the schools, its probably too much to expect them not to interact with the kids in a community kind of way. I can't imagine reasonably objecting to my kids being around for example, an indigenous person, or a buddhist, or a cattle farmer, or a policeofficer, who comes to the school to share their world views with interested students, and who then presides over a whole school assembly (but doesn't preach). We know they may be doing it just to build a good relationship with the students to make them more receptive to their ideas, but in the end the world is full of people with ulterior motives and the kids have to be taught to think critically for themselves, avoiding all contact is probably a bit too much to expect. As long as the religious activities are strictly off limits.
If you look at the Scripture Union you will see that the chaplaincy is, to them, a way of "bringing Jesus to the unchurched". They groom children, get them comfortable with their presence, build a sense of authority and mateship, and take them on workshops and camps that win them over to christianity with love bombing. They use conformity and peer pressure to get kids to contribute funds but obscure where the funds go.

School is not meant to be a fish bowl to make it easy to catch fish, bring the godless to one place so the fundies can get at 'em. Our children are there compulsorily to learn and the school has a duty not to interfere with otherwise healthy parent / child relationships or to usurp parental authority.

Consider if the chaplains were all islamic fundamentalists, or all marxists trying to get students to understand the evils of dialectic materialism. There are mechanisms in the education system to prevent just this sort of thing and the chaplaincy bypasses them all.

The abuses of the existing rules are rife.

For example the actual faith and denomination of the chaplain is meant to be recorded and made known to the school parent body. Over 300 chaplains have no recorded faith or sect. I know of three such chaplains who I have discovered are Pentacostal, My guess is the rest are as well. I can't prove it and the Education Department will not act to get the chaplains or the SU to comply.

For example chaplains are giving others right of access to students. Some are "mentors" who are nothing more than recruiters. Others are brought in on BBQ days to proselytise.

There are no atheist chaplains.

The previous rules made some of this harder to do so now they have been removed.

[DanDare]

Dammit, we almost need a student resource program of our own.
Great idea. Its getting the gummint to fund it that is the hard bit.

[DanDare]

Membrain,

do I detect a note of inconsistency with this post (http://atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?p=101489#post101489):

At our local State school, a chaplain is employed (I think the school got K$60 over 3 years for him), presumably supported by the christian P&C. He wanders around the school yard chatting to students and befriending them. But he also apparently is called upon to say prayers before certain whole-school events (i.e. not just groups of willing participants).
I seem to recall reading somewhere that this was not on, but I can't find it now. I don't like my child (or others who aren't yet religious) being exposed to this stuff; do I have any recourse or do I just have to suck it up because we are part of a minority group (the school community would be dominated by christians if it came to a vote, certainly if it was a vote conducted within the motivated and stackable P&C). Any links to relevant rules for this? TIA.

[DanDare]

I don't know about anybody else but this change is beginning to make me worried.

Getting kids to give permission without their parents consent or knowledge? "We'll just keep this our little secret".

This is getting ripe.

[DanDare]

Well of course that's another place where the rules are thrown to the wind anyway. To opt-out just don't sign anything. Unfortunately a few schools I am aware of have not given anyone a form to sign and just assumed implicit opt-in.

Yes, OK, a schools resource, for atheism?

Something cool and viral on facebook with a connected real web site perhaps. Emphasise the rebel aspect or the "your smarter than that" meme? Do we want a teens in your face list of arguments against religious BS?

[Membrain]

Membrain,

do I detect a note of inconsistency with this post (http://atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?p=101489#post101489):

Not really. I try to think how I would feel about another community group who are passionate about their world views going into schools and interacting with the kids. I have no time for indigenous stories about creation but I think its wonderful that my kids hear about them. So I need to think very carefully about why I object to someone who may just truly believe what they are on about and desperately want to share their story and do good works. I myself am always trying to get into our local schools and share my particular passion with the kids. I would be very taken aback if I was not able to conduct a school activity because someone objected to my environmentalism, or vegetarianism, or whatever, even though I had undertaken not to proselytise about it unless a child was interested.

Since that post I have (unfortunately) not been convinced that there are clear grounds to object to the presence of someone from the community wandering the school grounds or running a non-religious activity if the majority of the school community agree with it, which in my case is true - I come from a very conservative area and if you surveyed the population I am sure over 95% of them would either welcome or be indifferent to the presence of a 'nice' person from their dominant faith being around under the current guidelines. I am therefore left with the option of just upholding the thin veneer of protection the legislation provides, reinforcing our own world view to our children, and waiting until I feel there is a groundswell of support for atheism that will topple the majority in terms of agreeing what is to happen in a group situation.

This is the reason that atheists have to 'organise' themselves which I find irritating because we actually don't have anything in common except *not* doing something.

[DanDare]

Ah Membrain, I get where you are coming from.

I feel there is a difference between teaching and seducing, and that teachers and people like you and I do the former and chaplains do the latter.

Presenting aboriginal culture is teaching, urging kids to accept that culture as their own is seducing.

And if a community is not 100% in agreement with a seduction of their kids then someone is being abused

[Membrain]

I feel there is a difference between teaching and seducingAgreed; but proving that is the intent is the difficult part, if all they are doing is helping out at school.

[DanDare]

Agreed; but proving that is the intent is the difficult part, if all they are doing is helping out at school.
Their own literature shows intent, but its not necessary to prove it. The chaplaincy strongly enables such a thing, and it is an obvious goal of chaplains, and chaplaincy does not provide a necessary school function, so just get rid of the chaplaincy rather than endure the risk for no secular benefit.

[wearestardust]

not only is the ALP going to maintain the program, they promise to expand it: (http://www.alp.org.au/blogs/alp-blog/august-2010/the-national-school-chaplaincy-program/)

Our schools should be welcoming places, where all students can feel at home. For Australia’s children to get the best education possible, the wellbeing of students is absolutely critical, including making sure they get the support they need.

Travelling around Australia, speaking to principals, teachers, parents and students, I’ve found many value the National School Chaplaincy Program (NSCP) as a way to develop and implement practices that promote general student wellbeing and help our kids perform better at school.

That’s why a re-elected Gillard Labor Government will ensure that up to 1,000 additional schools will benefit from school chaplains, with an extension of the program until at least the end of 2014.

This announcement gives school communities certainty that this program will continue.

Participation in the school chaplaincy program is open to all schools – government and non-government – and is voluntary.

If re-elected, the Gillard Labor Government will ensure even more schools can benefit from the program.

While the original program has been very beneficial for 2,700 schools, some schools in rural, remote and disadvantaged locations missed out.

Schools in rural and remote areas often don’t have access to the same pastoral care services that city schools do. This additional funding will help them benefit from additional chaplaincy and pastoral care support.

This could include developing cluster models or pooled funding so a chaplain or pastoral care worker in a rural area has sufficient funding to service a number of schools.

The additional round will also focus on disadvantaged school communities, ensuring they are provided with the necessary support to benefit from a chaplain.

Chaplains and pastoral care workers provide general personal advice, comfort and support to all students and staff, regardless of their religious denomination and irrespective of their religious beliefs.

Chaplains can help build the sense of community in the school, support the school ethos and provide additional support for vulnerable children. Federal Labor believes this is an important way we can improve school for many of the nation’s students and that’s why we’ll continue to support this valuable program.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

To summarize:
We want all the children to be brainwashed with garbage, because no matter what good reasonable people say, we just won't fucking listen, and we just don't fucking get it.

So please, vote for us, because we are all moronic star-bollock-naked off-the-wall wingnuts and we deserve a little bit of slack.

[riddlemethis]

Agreed; but proving that is the intent is the difficult part, if all they are doing is helping out at school.

It isn't difficult to show Membrain, their literature as pointed out by Dan aside. Consider the situations underwhich they interact with school children & the kind of coping mechanisms they are likely to advise children in distress - sad/greiving/unwell = pray and god will help you. They certainly aren't professionals trained to deal with the gammut of psychological and emotional issues school communities find in their student bodies & there is serious potential for harm when we pretend that good ol' Christian coping wisdom is beneficial to the impressionable. The only option the religious have in 'helping' people is to convert them to their way of thinking.

[Loki]

Our schools should be welcoming places, where all students can feel at home.

They shot their own argument down in the first line. :)

Theres also a nice little bit of wibble later on about chaplains being good for kids "irrespective of their religious beliefs". No, that would be counsellors, you know, people with qualifications in counselling.

Fortunately my own child attends a school which employs a child psychologist and doesn't do artificial value systems at all (though for some reason have books on aboriginal woo in the library, I have a feeling that has something to do with the curriculum but not sure). The difference is extremely noticeable.

[DanDare]

Urk, here is my local ALP candidate, a guy I had a few dealings with when he was a state member, on chaplains:

LABOR candidate for Fisher, Chris Cummins, has welcomed the federal government’s pledge to extend the National School Chaplaincy Program to benefit up to 1000 additional schools across Australia.
The government has also promised funding certainty for a further three years to around 2700 schools already benefiting from the services of a chaplain.


The chaplains and pastoral care workers in schools provide general personal advice, comfort and support to students and staff, regardless of their religious denomination or beliefs.


They can also help to build the sense of community in the schools, support the school ethos and provide additional support for vulnerable children.

More... (http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/story/2010/08/09/school-chaplaincy-election-fisher-cummins/)Here is my letter to the editor about this:

The SCD article on Chris Cummins and his acceptance of the National School Chaplaincy Programme (http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/story/2010/08/09/school-chaplaincy-election-fisher-cummins/) highlights a problem with the whole election campaign. the politicians are just grabbing every popular issue and refuse to think about what they mean or to argue a case different from the popular view. Without that it is impossible for them to bring reasoned discussion into the public sphere.

There are a lot of things very wrong about the NSCP that are worth arguing about. A deep series of blog posts about the School Chaplains can be found at http://tinyurl.com/case-against-chaplains.

[TheMinisterForTruth]

I found this..

http://www.psychology.org.au/Assets/Files/APS-Submission-School-Chaplains-July2010.pdf


I have not read it all , but I thought I should share!


Regards

Dave M

[TheMinisterForTruth]

Hi Protium,

I didn't see that,
Sorry about that!

Dave M

[Seamus]

The Australian Psychological Society seems to think the resources and effort put into chaplaincy could be used better

No shit. Cui bono?


Completely of topic; there's nasty little TV ad on against the plain packaging laws on tobacco. Can't help but wonder who is paying for them.

Hell has no fury like vested interest masquerading as moral principle.(anon)

PS I disagree with the concept of a chaplains' programme. However,I would not like to see psychologists inflicted on children en masse. Having worked with many psychologists over a 20 year period, I do not share the high opinion of the profession that it has of itself.

[Loki]

Seamus has a good point here.

That the school chaplaincy program is silly and fails to provide the services it's promoted as providing does not mean it has to be replaced with something. It's perfectly reasonable in my mind to suggest that it should simply be abandoned (and those who introduced it sent to reeducation camps in Siberia).

If there is a good argument for providing qualified child psychologists and counsellors (and I am happy that there may well be, at least in some specific demographics) then consider that on it's own merits.

If the school chaplaincy program is pointless for any purpose except to indoctrinate children (and I am happy that it is) then it should simply be abandoned. Discussion on whether it should be replaced and with what is a separate issue.

The Australian Psychological Society it could be argued is fighting over who gets the resources (i.e. acting purely in its own best interest) when the base issue of whether the resources are needed is not resolved.

There are other suggestions that these monies be given directly to schools to be used for whatever individual schools decide is a priority, that works for me too.

[ABridgeTooFar]

I'm in my last few weeks of school now, and we have had a chaplain every since high school. Also i know people at other state schools with chaplains. The one thing they all have in common is they think they have a right to preach. Our chaplain has told us face to face that we should respect (his/her) right to preach.

The sad thing is they act like the nicest people you will ever meet so everyone is convinced that everything they do is for our benefit. When if you look past that you can see they are constantly forcing religious views on us and trying to lure people into their church. There have been countless speeches and lessons all through high school we have had to sit through. For example (he/she) used to come into our health class and try to convince people not to have sex until their married and keep going on about what God wants us to do in private relationships.

Anyway, chaplains are harmful (in the sense that they could easily be replaced with qualified people to do a better job) so they need to go. And i'm sure it would be perfectly acceptable for current chaplains to go and get the right qualifications and come back one day, if they are ok with the new job description. (if they do replace the job with a new version that doesn't include any religion).

[wearestardust]

Completely of topic; there's nasty little TV ad on against the plain packaging laws on tobacco. Can't help but wonder who is paying for them.


Fronted by grocers' assoc, funded by tobacco companies to the tune of (according to media) $5m.

Word on the street, and then in the media, was that they'd had change of heart and pulled the ads, but apparently not. Or they changed their moinds back.

[wearestardust]

How come it's only Christian chaplains, and not Imams, scientology auditors, wiccan leader, etc etc?

[DanDare]

How come it's only Christian chaplains, and not Imams, scientology auditors, wiccan leader, etc etc?
Because the schools say what the majority of the believers are and get a matching chaplain and minorities can get fucked. Also, the hiring authorities, like the Scripture Union are fully fundie cunts and wont hire the "other" people. I tried to get hired as an atheist chaplain but they would not accept it.

Sorry for the anger but I am fed up to here with the NSCP and I feel like breaking things to make me feel better. I might buy a dozen eggs and hurl them one at a time at a rock or something. That'll fix it.

[Praxis]

Saw a really sobering figure comparison on Twitter yesterday (I will try and find it) which showed the entire mental health budget (inclusive of everything) compared to the funding for the NSCP. And it's shocking.

The matter seems to be getting some more publicity now, which is excellent.

I'll post the figures as soon as I can find them. There's also some very good articles being written out there. Leslie Cannold has been very passionate on the topic.

Edit to add: found it! Only it's worse than I thought. It's not just the mental health budget, it's ALL medical research $700m (cancer, alzheimers, etc and a tiny bit of mental health) vs. NSCP $437m. Words fail me :(

[Praxis]

Leslie Cannold has an excellent article here: http://www.nationaltimes.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/why-are-we-robbing-our-littlies-to-preach-paul-20100816-125xp.html

[Praxis]

Gruber posted this link in OT but I thought it would be quite relevant to this thread!

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/breaking-news/swedish-priest-falls-asleep-with-suicidal-man-on-helpline/story-e6frea73-1225853708050

[DanDare]

Kids need more healers, not chaplains: psychologist group
Professor Littlefield said a 2009 National School Chaplaincy Association (NSCA) report showed most school chaplains dealt with problems including anxiety and depression, alcohol and drug use, physical and emotional abuse and neglect, suicide and self-harm.

She said the APS was concerned that school chaplains were counselling in areas that were outside their boundaries and training as spiritual and religious personnel.

"The evidence shows young people need support for complex personal problems and mental health issues yet chaplains are not professionally qualified to undertake this work and by their own account they very rarely refer students for specialist assistance," she said.
Full Article... (http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/kids-need-more-healers-not-chaplains-psychologist-group-20100814-123rd.html)

And here is the classic comment:

In SOME cases, persistent and endemic problems in students have a spiritual/demonic dimension and therefore no amount of psychological treatment will help them.

My experience is that chaplains can often detect this and are able to help. They make a most valuable contribution and their presence should be increased.

[DanDare]

@Dan: Anger --> Heat --> Steam --> Motive Power --> Achieve something.

Ferfuxakes man, if you're going to smash eggs, have the decency to have a pan and whisk handy!
Yeah, it resulted in omelette. I had real anger management problems as a teenager and it morphed into the urge to cook. Tomorrow vindaloo (that fixes everything).

[SinisterDexter]

And here is the classic comment:

:eek:

:confused:

:mad:

[DanDare]

The AEU has described as misguided and wrong the decision by Labor to extend the school chaplaincy program.
AEU Federal President Angelo Gavrielatos said the program did not address the real needs of students.
“Apart from undermining the secular traditions of public schools, this announcement fails to acknowledge what our students really need - qualified school counsellors, psychologists and welfare workers who can meet their complex needs,” he said.
“The Labor party extended this misguided policy without even waiting for the outcome of a review of the chaplaincy program that it established.
“Once again the Labor Party has followed the Coalition in education rather than addressing the real needs of students.
“Urgent resources are needed to achieve more manageable caseloads for staff in schools dealing with welfare issues.
“In NSW, for example, the school counsellor to student ratio stands at about 1 to 1000.”
From... (http://www.aeufederal.org.au/Media/President/Schoolchaplaincy.html)

Angelo

Have you seen your what colleagues from the primary school area are saying about the great boon of the NSCP?

Do have a read:
http://www.appa.asn.au/index.php/appa-business/news-items/1043
http://www.appa.asn.au/images/press/mediareleasecoalitionpolicy20100813.pdf

“More generally, the Coalition’s policy contains many worthwhile commitments including an expansion of the school chaplaincy program and greater autonomy for principals and school communities."

What does Leonie say about Gillard's bountiful NSCP expansion, I wonder?

It is good to know that the AEU policy on secular public schools is fully supported by your school principals, as is your 'resistance' to the NSCP scam.

Imagine how hard it would be if your members went off on a tangent and ignored AEU policies on these matters?

Regards,
Hugh

[Ford]

Received this morning.

Greens Statement on School Chaplaincy programs

The Greens want to replace the national school chaplaincy program and replace it with a scheme to help schools employ counsellors and community liaison officers.

The Greens belive that the chaplaincy program, introduced by the Howard government in 2007, was a very old idea, very much short of meeting the needs of schools in 2010. It has a religious basis whereas we are wanting to fund the program according to the needs of students.

The Greens have proposed replacing the National School Chaplaincy program with an expanded Schools Community Resourcing Program. Under The Greens proposal public schools can apply for funding of up to $60 000 to provide important student well-being and support services. We recognise schools often need additional support but that it is principals, teachers, parents and students who know what would add the most value to their school community.

--
Sam La Rocca
Campaign Coordinator
2010 Federal Election
Queensland Greens

[davo]

Leslie Cannold has an excellent article here: http://www.nationaltimes.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/why-are-we-robbing-our-littlies-to-preach-paul-20100816-125xp.html



I found this particularly poignant :

The government knows chaplains are evangelical Christians, not mental health experts. This is why departmental guidelines prohibit chaplains from counselling students. They also ban chaplains from providing educational and medical services, as well as from proselytising. So what exactly are we paying chaplains $20,000 each to do?
I'm not the only one wondering.

[RealityRules]

"Re-christianising" - I saw that somewhere recently

[DanDare]

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/profile-ak-snc1/v226/84/55/q840054265_7775.jpg (http://www.facebook.com/n/?ronniewilliams.vocalist&mid=2df8e58G2ec5c699G57017a1G0&n_m=dan2050%40tpg.com.au)Ronnie Williams (http://www.facebook.com/n/?ronniewilliams.vocalist&mid=2df8e58G2ec5c699G57017a1G0&n_m=dan2050%40tpg.com.au)August 27, 2010 at 12:54am
Subject: Radio National 'Life Matters' discusses NSCP chaplaincy today at 9am
Good Morning Folks,

Radio National ‘Life Matters’ (9:00am) is talking school chaplaincy this morning.

http://www.facebook.com/l/f0f8cpFVVIz-JYwO6ze86g91qAQ;www.abc.net.au/rn/lifematters/contact/

It may be worth sending in a comment via the ‘feedback’ form.

Worth mentioning among your own regional comments and anecdotes would be the recently-introduced ‘all but no choice’ Education Queensland chaplaincy 'policy' ('chaplain' or 'chaplaincy' is unmentioned in Queensland Education law) complete with a permission form which may be signed by the student if the school principal sees fit:

“If the principal decides that the student has the appropriate level of maturity and understanding to give informed consent, the student must sign this form themselves. Otherwise, the parent must sign the form on the student’s behalf.”

http://www.facebook.com/l/f0f8cZ2xPUP82lFAXCQHmlurovA;education.qld.gov.au/strategic/eppr/schools/scmpr012/cp2.pdf

It may also be worth pushing the fact that NSCP funded Queensland Scripture Union school chaplains are now conducting, during compulsory class time, the Paula Barrett ‘Friends for Life’ mental health programme. While the programme is described as “Anxiety Prevention and Treatment for children aged 7–11 and youth aged 12–16”, SUQ chaplains are conducting Friends for Life across Prep to Year 12 which includes ages 4 to 17. Under the new EQ chaplaincy ‘policy’, there is no mechanism for parents to exclude their children from exposure to SUQ chaplains during this time, or during any of the myriad other chaplaincy activities considered to contain no ‘religious’ content. Since SUQ chaplains must agree to evangelise as a job requirement, 'no religious content' during any chaplaincy activity should be considered to be highly unlikely.

http://www.facebook.com/l/f0f8cbdGHIVfYkG4C4euS1q27_w;www.friendsinfo.net/downloads/FRIENDSintrobooklet.pdf

All the Best,

Ron Williams

[Seamus]

“If the principal decides that the student has the appropriate level of maturity and understanding to give informed consent, the student must sign this form themselves. Otherwise, the parent must sign the form on the student’s behalf.”


In Australia, a person under 18 years is a legal infant:IE they may not enter into a binding contract. So why get them to sign a form?

[wearestardust]

In Australia, a person under 18 years is a legal infant:IE they may not enter into a binding contract. So why get them to sign a form?

Consent and contracts are not at all the same thing. In some areas - particularly health care - younger children are considered to be able to give (or withhold) consent and also to be able to keep their affairs private from their parents or guardians.

[nutmeg]

In Australia, a person under 18 years is a legal infant:IE they may not enter into a binding contract. So why get them to sign a form?

Does this apply to all contracts, or just to financial ones?
16 year olds can consent to medical treatment.

In Scotland, where the legal age of majority is also 18, 16 year olds can get married.

I would hope that if a student refuses to sign the permission form, that their wishes cannot be overridden by their parents giving permission.

[Membrain]

I was reading the comments on the life matters page and it was mentioned that chaplains could be secular but this was refuted by another person. I was a bit confused so did some reading but do I have this right: initially when there weren't enough chaplains to go round, the gov said the money could be used on secular 'pastoral care' workers, but now that the program is established, one of the requirements of a chaplain is that the person be employed "through formal ordination, commissioning, recognised qualifications or endorsement by a recognised or accepted religious institution or a State/Territory government approved chaplaincy service."
Which presumably rules out a person with no faith?

Anyhoo, does the current political situation in Oz put the chaplaincy program commitment e.g. by Labour at risk? Is it affected at all?

[RealityRules]

Anyhoo, does the current political situation in Oz put the chaplaincy program commitment e.g. by Labour at risk? Is it affected at all?

I think the Coalition committed to it, and did so before Labour did at the 10th hour. :(

[Senexis]

But how will the Priests get laid if we farm this out to secular counsellors?

[Jin-oh Choi]

Just out of interest for people. I've uploaded a pamphlet for the Tasmanian State School Chaplaincy (http://files.meetup.com/1605523/Tasmanian%20State%20School%20Chaplaincy.pdf) funded via the National School Chaplaincy Programme (NSCP) (https://nscp.dest.gov.au/). Which I showed to those who attended a recent Launceston Skeptics (http://www.launcestonskeptics.com/) in the Pub (http://www.launcestonskeptics.com/calendar/14109605/), which I organise.

[Membrain]

Does anyone have a comment/answer for me regarding this bit of my previous post: initially when there weren't enough chaplains to go round, the gov said the money could be used on secular 'pastoral care' workers, but now that the program is established, one of the requirements of a chaplain is that the person be employed "through formal ordination, commissioning, recognised qualifications or endorsement by a recognised or accepted religious institution or a State/Territory government approved chaplaincy service."
Which presumably rules out a person with no faith?

[DanDare]

Although there were rumours about the secular councillor uses for the funds I went to the government to check that out in the early days and the answer was no, the fund could not be used in that way. The chaplain had to be religious and from a religious background nominated by the school after "extensive consultation" with the school community. That last bit never happens and never has to be reviewed as the school population changes.

[DanDare]

Sydney Morning Herald has a High Court Challenge overview that doesn't quite seem to connect all the dots somehow. Article... (http://www.smh.com.au/national/education/legal-challenge-to-school-chaplains-20100904-14v5q.html)

[Ford]

Although there were rumours about the secular councillor uses for the funds... The chaplain had to be religious...

It is still assumed by the majority that morality springs from Religious Conviction, preferred as a prerequisite for people interacting with children.
So the reason the program was set up and funded by Howard was to attract votes from that set of 'believers'. It has nothing to do with reality and everything to do with politics.

File under Howard : Poiltical expediency with Children Overboard, There will never be a GST, Cut new voter registration time, No worker will be worse off, etc.

Now we have an Atheist PM (and don't think for a minute that did not reduce her vote) who is bending over backwards so far, to accommodate all and sundry; she is in danger of exposing herself to the charge of political prostitution!

Further, the shrill reaction to (Athiest) Premier Reece's experiment with ethics classes will surely influence (Catholic) Keneally's decision to extend or not extend that program when the time comes. http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/ethics-trial-a-rees-throwback-catholics-20100419-sped.html (http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/ethics-trial-a-rees-throwback-catholics-20100419-sped.html)This article hints at the pressure for her to drop it.

The outcome of the high court challenge will decide whether we do have a constitutional right to secular goverment and secular schools. If we don't, we who demand separation need to lift our game.

[RealityRules]

the shrill reaction to (Athiest) Premier Rees's experiment with ethics classes will surely influence (Catholic) Keneally's decision to extend or not extend that program when the time comes. http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/ethics-trial-a-rees-throwback-catholics-20100419-sped.html (http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/ethics-trial-a-rees-throwback-catholics-20100419-sped.html)This article hints at the pressure for her to drop it.

Ironically, it is now the Coalition that are more threatening (than Keneally and her lot), ala John 'Winceton' Howard.

see recent news items in post on AFA-Ethics-classes-thread here http://atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showpost.php?p=123623&postcount=42
.

[DanDare]

The outcome of the high court challenge will decide whether we do have a constitutional right to secular goverment and secular schools. If we don't, we who demand separation need to lift our game.
Actually the high court challenge will probably not test section 116 of the constitution.

[Major Wedgie]

The chaplaincy program is a symptom of the state being scared of losing votes. Further it puts the church's needs before the childrens. Who could possibly argue that chaplains are more valuable than mental health workers. Ashamed to call myself Australian - at times.

[Praxis]

The matter will be discussed on Sunrise (Channel 7) tomorrow morning apparently. Not sure what time though.

[Major Wedgie]

I just caught the end of that interview and it seemed to me that they were both agreeing that chaplaincy is a good thing and that there should be psychologists as well. In fact it seemed they were recommending a level of 1 psychologist per 500 children.

[Praxis]

Gah! I missed it. Hopefully it will be on the website.

Yep, here it is!
http://au.tv.yahoo.com/sunrise/video/-/watch/22018000/chaplains-vs-psychologists/

[DanDare]

From savetheenlightenment.com

How cosy.. this morning on 7 Sunrise, Tim Mander was 'against' Dr Michael Carr-Gregg, who just happens to be a keynote speaker at the ACCESS ministries chaplaincy dinner in November..

http://www.cces.org.au/chaplains/access-chaplaincy-dinner-2010

"Renown...ed Adolescent Psychologist Dr Michael Carr-Gregg recognises the unique place for chaplains as part of a school's welfare team. He is often quoted as saying that one of the most significant things children need to build resilience is the involvement of a charismatic adult in their life. In accepting this invitation Dr Carr-Gregg said “I believe that all schools are greatly advantaged by having both a chaplain and psychologist. I have repeatedly stated that I believe spirituality is an important protective factor in the lives of young people!”

Watch the ‘debate’ here..

http://au.tv.yahoo.com/sunrise/video/

It was a charade folks!.. Carr-Gregg provided the cue for the new Mander mantra.. “chaplains refer.. refer.. and refer.. then refer some more.. after which they refer..” (etc. etc.).

Interesting to note that the religiosity of the NSCP is no longer questioned.. it’s expected.

[DanDare]

More direct link to the Sunrise video.

http://au.tv.yahoo.com/sunrise/video/-/watch/22018000/ (http://au.tv.yahoo.com/sunrise/video/)

[ABridgeTooFar]

Its not "refer, refer, refer", its more like "preach, preach, preach, preach, preach and preach".

[Major Wedgie]

Gah! I missed it. Hopefully it will be on the website.

Yep, here it is!
http://au.tv.yahoo.com/sunrise/video/-/watch/22018000/chaplains-vs-psychologists/
Nice one Praxis, if only others had read it before posting their "original" content.

[Praxis]

This is a blog post and open letter to Dr Michael Carr-Gregg by State Religion VIC: http://bit.ly/cuIJcw

Please read it and then do what you can to pass it on.

It's also worth reading the "about our icon" section and learning about someone who seemed to truly understand the meaning of secularism.

[OzAtheist]

This is a blog post and open letter to Dr Michael Carr-Gregg by State Religion VIC: http://bit.ly/cuIJcw

Please read it and then do what you can to pass it on.



Read it, passed it on via twitter, and left a comment on Carr-Gregg's blog (http://carrgregg.blogspot.com/2010/09/school-chaplains.html)

[Praxis]

I've started a suggested GetUp campaign (they're calling for submissions) regarding the School Chaplaincy Program.

Imagine if GetUp got behind it!

Please vote to move it up the list and leave a comment:
http://getup.uservoice.com/forums/60819-campaign-ideas/topics/61385-i-suggest-a-campaign-about-/filter/recent

It's brand new so it's got a long way to go, so repost it, Tweet it, whatever, to get it out there.

[DanDare]

I've started a suggested GetUp campaign (they're calling for submissions) regarding the School Chaplaincy Program.

Imagine if GetUp got behind it!

Please vote to move it up the list and leave a comment:
http://getup.uservoice.com/forums/60819-campaign-ideas/topics/61385-i-suggest-a-campaign-about-/filter/recent

It's brand new so it's got a long way to go, so repost it, Tweet it, whatever, to get it out there.
Brilliant Praxis! I'm on it.

[Made Of Stars]

Tweeted and liked too!

[DanDare]

I would also recommend this:
Removal of special tax exemptions for religion and treat all equally. (http://getup.uservoice.com/forums/60819-campaign-ideas/suggestions/1068003-removal-of-special-tax-exemptions-for-religion-and?ref=title)


Direct link to the Chaplain one:

School Chaplaincy Program (http://getup.uservoice.com/forums/60819-campaign-ideas/suggestions/1096087-school-chaplaincy-program?ref=title)

[Praxis]

Thanks guys! I know there are many MANY others way more on top of this issue than I am but I just sort of came across the GetUp page today and saw they were asking for submissions for possible campaigns. I did a quick search for "school chaplaincy" and couldn't find anything so I thought I'd start one.

I realise starting with "Australia is a secular nation" has bent some out of shape a little and I've emailed GetUp to ask if I can change that - I wrote it on the fly, not really knowing what was involved.

But anyway, we're up to 100 votes and are ranked 26th, which is great. I don't know what it takes for GetUp to decide whether to accept something or not but it can't hurt to have a go.

Cheers!

[bruce1937]

Never heard of this Getup mob but I gave you 3 of my votes and your up to 3rd place

[DanDare]

Don't miss out on the Removal of special tax exemptions for religion and treat all equally. (http://getup.uservoice.com/forums/60819-campaign-ideas/suggestions/1068003-removal-of-special-tax-exemptions-for-religion-and?ref=title)

It references the "Purple Economy"and is about removing charitable status from "promoting religion" and ensuring that ALL charities are open and transparent.

[DanDare]

There are two campaign suggestions at GetUp! that we should all consider supporting.

The one Praxis started about chaplains, which is now ranked 9th, and the one about removing special tax exemptions for religions, which is ranked 16th.

I've made two tiny urls that go to the pages directly. Spread the word and get people voting these issues up. Disregard negative discussions that GetUp! would not dare support these. You don't know till the evidence is in.

http://tinyurl.com/getupchaplains
http://tinyurl.com/getupreligcharity

[Slothhead]

Going to give this a kick, as well as a free plug for our face book page.

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/group.php?gid=120767494639076

[DanDare]

FYI The "National School Chaplaincy Program (http://www.deewr.gov.au/schooling/nationalschoolchaplaincyprogram/Pages/home.aspx)" page of the "Smarter Schools" area at the deewr web site.

Also the Australian Council of State School Organisations view on chaplains in schools (http://www.acsso.org.au/2010/08/school-chaplaincy-program/).

[DanDare]

Sean the Blogonaut (http://seantheblogonaut.com/)

Advocate for Science, Reason and Atheism


School Chaplaincy in state schools to be challenged in high court


I have mentioned the high court challenge (http://www.highcourtchallenge.com/) on the blog before. For new readers though, a little summary:
As it stands the federal government has funded and will continue to fund religious chaplains in “supposedly”secular state schools. This was set up under the previous Howard Liberal Government.The vast majority of these chaplains appear to be from evangelical churches with a stated mission of bringing Christ to the young. Provision is made for chaplains of faiths other than Christianity, but the type of chaplain a school gets will depend on the principle in consultation with the community. Christian privilege and the existence of proselytization organisations I think contribute to the vast majority of Chaplains being of a Christian evangelical persuasion.
These chaplains are forbidden from proselytizing and seem to fulfil the role of “friendly face in the school yard”, an adult who is not part of the authority structure( I wonder if there has been any studies conducted on whether or not children are more likely to speak to a Chaplain because of this reason).
If they come across serious issues they are supposed to pass this on to trained professionals- though it’s unclear to me at this stage what sort of training the are given in regards to passing on or even identifying issues.
The question I ask myself is why one has to have a faith to take on this role? If I wanted to apply for such a position I would be knocked back as I am an atheist (schools can only employ a secular chaplain or pastoral worker once all religious avenues have been exhausted). This is despite the fact that I have done training and have experience in suicide prevention.
This is one case where it appears to me that religion is being put ahead of children’s welfare.


More... (http://seantheblogonaut.com/2010/09/school-chaplaincy-in-state-schools-to-be-challenged-in-high-court/)

[DanDare]

Big hit for chaplaincy (http://www.news-mail.com.au/story/2010/10/16/bundaberg-chaplaincy/)

IT might only be a hit of golf, but the event will help raise funds for Bundaberg’s primary and high school chaplaincy services.
It is hoped this year’s Chappie Golf Day will raise several thousand dollars to go towards the $100,000 needed per year to run school-based chaplaincy services.
Scripture Union district co-ordinator John Van der Heijde said the four-ball ambrose event over 18 holes tomorrow was expected to attract 80 people from the community.
“The funds we raise goes directly to wages for community-funded chaplains,” he said.
“It’s crucial for us to raise the funds. Chaplains have a vital role in the schools.
“The feedback and reports from across the country shows chaplains play a vital part in the school communities.”
.....

Also see the info about the upcoming Compass show (http://atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=7590).

[66 vegie]

I have only just come back to the forum after being away for a while..this subject is close to my heart....so thank you for all the info...lot's of reading to do.

[Major Wedgie]

Welcome back 66 Vegie, I missed you. No wait. Who are you again?

Anyway, just wanted to make sure everyone who is seriously interested in this issue, I believe there is a real chance to so something about it here >> http://suggest.getup.org.au/forums/60819-campaign-ideas/suggestions/1096087-school-chaplaincy-program?tracking_code=9cb179c247327919535222398cb6 812a

PLEASE VOTE FOR THIS, YOU KNOW GETUP WORKS!
Thanks to everyone who already has.

[Major Wedgie]

Hi guys,

Just a quick update on the GetUp situation our effort to remove the school chaplaincy program has moved from 9th rank to 8th this morning. Thanks to Praxis for starting this movement.

Here's the link for anyone who wants to vote: http://suggest.getup.org.au/forums/60819-campaign-ideas/suggestions/1096087-school-chaplaincy-program?ref=title

[Major Wedgie]

168 more votes required to rank 7th on the GetUp! campaign suggestion forum! Vote Here > http://suggest.getup.org.au/forums/60819-campaign-ideas/suggestions/1096087-school-chaplaincy-program?ref=title

[Major Wedgie]

We are still 8th ranked issue on GetUp! suggestions and need 53 more votes to get this issue into 7th position. Please come and vote if you haven't already, here's the link again http://suggest.getup.org.au/forums/60819-campaign-ideas/suggestions/1096087-school-chaplaincy-program?ref=title

[RealityRules]

press about school chaplaincy today

" ... the continuing success of Howard's greatest gesture to education, the National School Chaplaincy Program.

"The idea came out of Howard's hunt for the Christian vote during his last term of office. It has continued apace ever since.

"Recently the Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, ''turbo-charged'' the chaplaincy program and prompted an unseemly rush to chaplaincy, even in the NSW government school system, which has historically eschewed mixing church and state."

www.smh.com.au /education/with-god-by-their-side (http://www.smh.com.au/national/education/with-god-by-their-side-20101029-177ie.html)

[Major Wedgie]

Today our GetUp! campaign moved from 8th rank to 7th rank on GetUps suggestion forum. Please vote if you haven't already: http://suggest.getup.org.au/forums/60819-campaign-ideas/suggestions/1096087-school-chaplaincy-program?ref=title

[michael w]

I am a teacher at a NSW public school (Primary) and we have a chaplain who works 2 days a week. Before the chaplain was appointed, the staff had a meeting to discuss the proposal. It was agreed that the role was to be a non religious role, more like a counsellor and confidant. I have to say that this bloke is absolutely professional and does not cross the line. I have enjoyed numerous philosophical chats with him and he understands my position and respects it. He is my friend and I don't hold his religious beliefs against him but test them often. He is an asset to our school and a positive influence. I don't know if other schools have a similar relationship but I thought I'd share my experience with you all.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

michael w: iI do wish all chaplains were like that. :(

[Xeno]

It was agreed that the role was to be a non religious role, more like a counsellor and confidant

michael w: I do wish all chaplains were like that.I don't.

They are untrained counsellors who are there because they believe in a particular religion. Why the fuck would we want them to pretend they are what they are not, and imagine this is somehow a good idea?

Maybe we should say that pedophiles who try to act as orthopedic surgeons are terrific because they don't appear to be molesting any of the children they are incompetent to treat.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Xeno: +95

Although the only reason I said what I said in the first place (sorry for not clarifying) is because they're there. I would actually prefer that they are not there.

I agree they should never even go near the school system, to the extent public or private, but since we've got them, the best that can be done ATM is to make the most out of them while we find a way to boot them out of the system IMO.

Definitely shouldn't be counsellors, and if they are not interfering, that's a good sign.

[ABridgeTooFar]

I've seen professional chaplains, and very unprofessional chaplains. The fact that they can get away with being unprofessional is not on. Changes need to be made. Surely those professional chaplains will just go and get the right qualifications to become a school councilor once they ban the chaplaincy program. Letting these people get a 30k job a year for doing a 2 day course just doesn't justify the role though. The lazy ones still get through this way. So if they aren't lazy they would support ending the chaplaincy program to go and get real qualifications to perform a real job within schools.

[DanDare]

The International Scripture Union, that has pushed and promoted this program, has a goal to get at the children of non-christian, non-evangelical parents.

Some chaplains may be ok, but they have no place in school. They perform no unique function that necessitates their presence, they promote religion against the wishes of many parents, and they earn big bucks for religious evangelical organisations.

They are also a loop hole the size Uluru for letting others into school campus outside of the normally tough guidlines, such as their "mentors", evangelicals that do one on one with kids. Again there is no need for them to be there doing this. Councillors are better and are trained, bound and overseen not to impose their personal code into their dealings with children.

The organisations behind the chaplaincy, and many of the chaplains, are just religious predators (http://richarddawkins.net/discussions/539693-religious-predators) that we have allowed into the system where our kids are conveniently gathered together as easy pickings.

[Billious]

As a school principal, I have dealings with 2 CPSW (Christian Pastoral Support Workers)-not allowed to call them chaplains any more- They are not identifyied as counsellors and parents have to give consent at the start of their childs' enrollment at school if they want their child to have contact with the CPSW.
Whilst the money is significant (Was it $48mil?) at least it's not going into fuelwatch and grocerywatch! :rolleyes:

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Welcome Billious - I imagine it won't take long before Black's Evil Twin shows up.

About what you said; what do you think about the amount of money being wasted on this program?

[Annie]

Hi Billious. Are you in a government or private school?

Calling them CPSW does not change the fact that they are religious and christian.
Can you tell us what qualifications these CPSW's have and which recognisable institutions provide their training?
As a teacher, I know many parents are often under informed in many areas of their childrens' education so I am curious as to what is actually divulged to the parents of the children at your school.
Can you also advise what do the students who do not attend scripture classes do during this time?

As Protium said, I would prefer my tax dollar went to something tangible and not some pie in the sky idea of some super fairy. Fuel and groceries seem pretty reasonable by comparison.

[Ford]

Couldn't find the quote, sorry. Whart I wanted to say is apart from the basic nonsense that is religion, surely it is clear that Howard started the Chaplaincy service to grab the Protestat vote and to wedge the Muslims. This was at a time he was also generating hate for (Muslim) refugees who arrived by boat. Maybe some actors could begin to turnj up at schools with a bit of media along a la Chaser and demand jobs as Muslim 'chaplains'. Any mob that wears funny hats couild join in like Sihks, Druids and show how divisive it is and inappropriate in a secular country. But we aren't are we!

[Billious]

Thanks for the welcome!
The CPSW are engaged by a combination of the school, parents and SMG (Schools' ministry group, with a stated agenda much like SU I would imagine.) PArent groups are asked to make some contribution to the funding of the CPSW (office space, consumables, phone etc)
Qualifications: They vary from person to person. In the country, when fishing from a smaller pond, the criteria is less discerning. Some come with a background of youth work, mental health, church work, etc
It's like most things federally funded: some work, some don't. Some CPSW do a great job supporting the teachers with children facing issues relating to abuse, neglect etc while others are no more than glorified School Support Officers.
My experience is that programs that support children, whilst not necessarily being 100% efficent, are good to have in schools.
It is worth noting that parent bodies (PTA, P and F) etc were meant to have been consulted in the process, before an appointment process was undertaken, they are reviewed at the end of the first and third year. Any school could quite easily opt out of the program, as they can with the SU christian option programs, and mentoring programs (I think the one referred to in an early post is a World Vision program)
Teachers also reserve the right to include or not include the CSW with any of their students.
Maybe the voice against CPSW program is not loud enough...

[Goldenmane]

Right across the state students in government schools are being challenged with a new way to live life and are hearing a message of the dignity and value of each individual and of hope for the future. SMG has a unique opportunity to influence a whole generation and hence the future of Australia.

It's certainly newish if it involves Christianity and "the dignity and value of each individual and of hope for the future". The entire central corpus of Christianity is founded on the basic lack of dignity and value of the individual, and the only hope for a future involved is one of mindlessly spending eternity singing the praises of some morally reprehensible endless foulness. Not much hope then, really.

[Billious]

[quote=The Irreverent Mr Black;141012]Billous, you didn't say which state this is in.
quote]

No you're right. I didn't. But I didnt get much of a chance between 8:50 and 8:55! ;)


(Sorry don't know if I've selected and inserted a quote!)

Didn't think it would be too hard for you to find out what state I was in. :)

Can the money be better spent on other programs, resources and ancillary staff?

In some cases: absolutely. In some cases: I think it's a pretty effective use of government funding.

In reality I could take many resources out of school that sit on shelves doing nothing, sack plenty of dead wood and use the money in a more effective manner.

I guess the point I was trying to make was not so much whether Christian groups should be doing this (funded by the Government or otherwise) but if the option is there to back out, opt out or never opt in, why do state schools so readily embrace this program?
From the numbers of schools involved in the first round, it must be generally well accepted.
Do we have any data on schools that have parent bodies that moved against the CPSW program? % of government schools that don't have any form of Chrsitan option program?

[Fearless]

Qualifications: They vary from person to person. In the country, when fishing from a smaller pond, the criteria is less discerning. Some come with a background of youth work, mental health, church work, etc
Hello Billious,

I had to study for some time to become a Youth Worker which included police checks etc, I also had some dabblings with dual diagnosis cases being with drug dependency and mental health concerns, so I understand these two areas quite well, both being covered in my studies and experiences from working in the field.

Can you explain church work for me please.

Cheers.

[ABridgeTooFar]

Why do state schools embrace this program? Because the principals are generally in their 50s-60s and are mostly Christians themselves. Our principal encourages the Chaplain to give prayers or blessings at special assemblies.

The program comes at no costs to the schools either, so for most Christian principals it seems like a no-brainer.

Anyway, if there is a job to be done then sure, lets have a chaplaincy role that can be done by anyone from any faith.

But when you take Christianity out of the role, it suddenly seems quite useless, which raises questions of whether it is actually useful. Lets make sure each school has access to a professional psychologist before we start paying for chaplains.

[Annie]

Can the money be better spent on other programs, resources and ancillary staff?

In some cases: absolutely. In some cases: I think it's a pretty effective use of government funding.
Are you therefore happy for your students to spend valuable learning time engaging in something that there is no evidence for?
Do you prefer not to employ qualified psychs/social workers in an effort to save dollars?

Could you please answer my previous question Billious. What do the students that are not involved in these classes do instead?
Thanks.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Billious, why do you think it is an effective usage of government funding to advance a religion and indoctrinate children, when it could better be used for other things? What makes you think that?

[DanDare]

I guess the point I was trying to make was not so much whether Christian groups should be doing this (funded by the Government or otherwise) but if the option is there to back out, opt out or never opt in, why do state schools so readily embrace this program?
From the numbers of schools involved in the first round, it must be generally well accepted.
Do we have any data on schools that have parent bodies that moved against the CPSW program? % of government schools that don't have any form of Chrsitan option program?
Billious I have first hand and over a dozen second hand experiences of this being railroaded into schools against the parents wishes using manipulation, bullying and outright lies.

In the local school the admin prayer group hijacked the P&C to push it through. I forced a proper ballot. Only about 25% of the school parent body wanted a chaplain. Note that it should not be a voting issue anyway, if one parent objects then introducing a chaplain is wrong.

Anyway, despite this the school principle was moved to another school and a friend of jesus brought in. He oversaw the sending of a false claim being sent to the government saying the overwhealming majority of parents wanted this. The government never checked. When a complaint was sent the person investigating asked the principle if it was all good. You can guess the answer. Investigation ends.

We then get the opt-in form changed so that you can in no way avoid the chaplain having access to your child. The new principle then invited the Gideon's to come in and hand out bibles every year. A complaint was made two years ago and nothing has come of it in any way.

These people are hot to trot on this because they want to convert the children of non-christians and christians that are not fervent enough. They have no place in school. Saying they do good youth work or whatever does not justify chaplains, it justifies youth workers. The chaplains are religious predators and a poison chalice.

[Ford]

If memory hasn't deserted (this time) Howard offered the funding but it was conditional on it being spent on a chaplain. If the school opted out, no funding. That's where the Teachers' Unions should have confronted him.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

lol - check out the poll results:

Is there a place for chaplains in state schools?

5% Yes
94% No

[Billious]

Church work: I understand to be working as a youth pastor, children's worker, pastoral care. That type of thing. Paid or otherwise.

[Billious]

Regretfully, Mr Black, I'm not in a position to check updates on here as often as I would like. :)

[Billious]

Annie: Sorry I missed you question. The CPSWs I know don't actually run classes. They may have some input and present a biblical pov. They are almost entirely involved in small group/teacher support work.
Your comment about 'no evidence;, Annie, would, in some circumstances, be considered a matter of opinion.

(I'm having a hard time keeping up with the questions, but I'll do my best!)

Croc: My understanding is the they are not to prostelise (spelling?)

Abridgetoo far: Whilst your generalisation about the demographic of state school principals may be accuarate, I can't really comment as I'm not sure what the data is.

[Billious]

Mr Black I apologise if you felt my non response to your question about what state I'm in was anything but an inability to get around to checking responses to the post. But having said that, I also feel I have the right to preserve (though somewhat unsuccessfully) some anominity.
I'm not sure if my support, or otherwise, of this program is the issuse. I'm intersted in the debate of its value.
Would a statement of my position change the tone of the conversation? By trying to present my experience I've hoped to garner responses that have been fair and balanced, and based on experience and evidence. (This has generally been the case)
I realise the more I post, the more questions will be raised. :) That's not a problem, but I can't gaurentee I'll be able to respond in good time to them.

[Xeno]

Church work: I understand to be working as a youth pastor, children's worker, pastoral care. That type of thing. Paid or otherwise....and this qualifies them for ..... church work. So, for what are they qualified to be in our schools, that is not better in the hands of someone professionally trained or qualified for the purpose?

Oh, church work; you mentioned.

[Loki]

"Pastoral Care" and "Church Work" seem like fairly vacuous non-categories to me.

We know that under the terms of the program chaplains are not permitted to prosetylyse, not permitted to counsell, and not permitted to teach.

So can you please tell me what these people actually do and why that requires subscription to religion (and one particular religion at that).

[Praxis]

Check out this sickening thing from ACCESS Ministries. Make sure you have a bucket handy for when you get to the last bit, the "my personal challenge".

http://www.accessministries.org.au/chaplains/access-chaplaincy-dinner-2010

At least this explains clearly why Michael Carr-Gregg wouldn't denounce the NSCP on TV recently. He was the bloody keynote speaker at this thing :rolleyes: :mad:

[RealityRules]

Check out this sickening thing from ACCESS Ministries.

And these "names"

On the night MC Mike Munro shared the desperation of his own childhood, and how he wished he could have had a chaplain to guide him through his adolescence. While Marina Prior's performance of musical theatre favourites mesmerised the audience, it was her heartfelt plea to support chaplains that deeply moved us. Acting Police Commissioner, Kieran Walshe also expressed his support for this vital ministry that impacts on so many children's lives.

[DanDare]

Guest Blog: Why does Australia play with faith in school?

By Scott Hedges

When I enrolled my daughter in a Victorian primary school, I only had a typically American understanding of Australia, which consisted mainly of that guy shouting "Crikey!" while standing on a crocodile. It's been a learning curve on a number of fronts, mostly great. But one thing I still haven't been able to grasp is why public education includes a class to instruct children in Christianity.Full Article.... (http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2010/11/12/3064959.htm?topic1=home&topic2)

(also posted in MediaWatch (http://atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=7505))

[RealityRules]

Guest Blog: Why does Australia play with faith in school?
By Scott Hedges


Read this in the public comments

"ACCESS ministry do a valuable job in bringing children with no hope in the world into contact with the Lord Jesus, particularly when they come from atheistic homes of violent anti-religious sentiments.

"ACCESS Ministry has lots of success with its program, and has earned the Church valuable new recruits in my school, which is why John Howard, God bless him, knew it would be a very good idea to fund the much needed chaplains in our atheistic public schools."

JANICE WALLACE :
13 NOV 2010 12:08:57PM

[Coryate]

"ACCESS Ministry has lots of success with its program, and has earned the Church valuable new recruits in my school, which is why John Howard, God bless him, knew it would be a very good idea to fund the much needed chaplains in our atheistic public schools."

I could feel the heaving in my stomach when I read that

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Annie: Sorry I missed you question. The CPSWs I know don't actually run classes. They may have some input and present a biblical pov. They are almost entirely involved in small group/teacher support work.
Your comment about 'no evidence;, Annie, would, in some circumstances, be considered a matter of opinion.

(I'm having a hard time keeping up with the questions, but I'll do my best!)

Croc: My understanding is the they are not to prostelise (spelling?)

Abridgetoo far: Whilst your generalisation about the demographic of state school principals may be accuarate, I can't really comment as I'm not sure what the data is.If they're there to present a "biblical pov" they can disappear in a puff of smoke. At least the smoke will provide entertainment to the children.

If they're not there to proselytize then why are they there in the first place? I do not want any of my money being wasted on these fucking turds.

Check out this sickening thing from ACCESS Ministries. Make sure you have a bucket handy for when you get to the last bit, the "my personal challenge".

http://www.accessministries.org.au/chaplains/access-chaplaincy-dinner-2010

At least this explains clearly why Michael Carr-Gregg wouldn't denounce the NSCP on TV recently. He was the bloody keynote speaker at this thing :rolleyes: :mad:

"ACCESS Ministry has lots of success with its program, and has earned the Church valuable new recruits in my school, which is why John Howard, God bless him, knew it would be a very good idea to fund the much needed chaplains in our atheistic public schools."

I could feel the heaving in my stomach when I read thatShould I inhale carbon monoxide now? Sounds like our country is FUBAR'd :(

[DanDare]

Read this in the public comments

The bad is oft balanced by the good:

Floyd : 13 Nov 2010 5:15:10pm
I'm a Christian and sometime Sunday school teacher and I'm slightly embarrassed by the self serving and very tribal way churches support this chaplain thing. I'd rather my son learned about religion on the weekend. As well as wasting kids' time and imposing (however touchy feelingly) the authority of one faith on a bunch of kids whose parents probably don't share it, the chaplaincy program violates Christian ethics of honesty (it's a backdoor way of trying to evangelise) and the do unto others rule (we wouldn't want other religions to borrow our tax money in order to proselytise our kids)

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Glad to see a Christian standing up to this shit. I bet if there were enough such people who did stand up and do something about this, then they'd axe the program.

[Major Wedgie]

When you link to a website you help to raise it's ranking in search engines. A better way to link to religious websites would be like this www (dot) religiouswebsite (dot) com.

[DanDare]

The Anti School Chaplaincy (http://suggest.getup.org.au/forums/60819-campaign-ideas/suggestions/1096087-school-chaplaincy-program?ref=title) proposal at GetUp! is now in position 3 with 1,113 votes. Find some more supporters and we just might get this one started!

[DanDare]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2010/11/25/3076862.htm

ABC news report on NT Ombudsman criticism of chaplaincy, including an incident of chaplains housing a paedophile next door to the school where they work while attempting to "cure" him.

[DanDare]

And a bit more from Ron:
Hello All,


This story regarding the Hillsong Shine programme at Gatton State Primary School is from today’s ‘Gatton Star’:

http://www.gattonstar.com.au/story/2010/11/30/gatton-state-school-pupils-learn-to-shine/

Gatton State School shines
30th November 2010

GATTON State School participants have reached and celebrated the end of their seven week Shine journey.

http://media.apnonline.com.au/img/media/images/2010/12/01/gs-gatton-shine01_t325.jpg

GATTON State School participants have reached and celebrated the end of their seven week Shine journey.

Shine is a voluntary program run at Gatton State School to help teach and encourage girls to value themselves, and to look after themselves.

Sessions cover areas such as raising awareness of the negative effects of the media on self image, hair and skin care, wise decisions regarding relationships with boys, etiquette, goal setting and the importance of using words to build others up rather than putting them down.

The luncheon was held on Wednesday, November 24 in honour of the 11 girls who participated this year.

They were toasted by Deputy Principal Ms Single, P&C President Mr Poole and the Program Co-ordinators Olivia Buttsworth (Chaplain) and Fleur Glover (Volunteer).

The girls were also awarded with a Bella magazine, a certificate and bookmark.

The luncheon was held in a room kindly offered by the Gatton Baptist Church and the main meal was catered for by its catering team. Desserts and flower arrangements were kindly donated by local church women.

The girls were thrilled to have some of the session teachers and some other special guests share the meal with them.

Among the guests on the day were Ms Single, Mr and Mrs Poole and Mrs Taylor (LCC Chair who taught the etiquette session).

Olivia and Fleur and all the Shine participants would like to express their sincere gratitude to Gatton State School, the Local Chaplaincy Committee and the Gatton community for supporting this program.

“I think the most encouraging thing about Shine is seeing the girls realise they are valuable and have something to offer the world,” chaplain Olivia Buttsworth said.


Of course, we know all about Shine from ‘Sunshine’ of Kings Pentecostal church at Noosa:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W-CnTcdFzQ (part of this clip was used in the Compass doco)


It’s worth mentioning that in September 2009 I was chided by a local high-flying Education Queensland exec for questioning Shine. I was told that “those women (the Shine volunteers gathered from local Pentecostal, Charismatic, Baptist and other evangelical churches) are often the only ones capable of teaching ‘those girls’ about feminine hygiene”. During the same meeting I was told that since we appeared to regard the Queensland state school system as ‘not secular enough’, it may be worth considering some of the excellent Toowoomba Catholic schools—particularly for our girls.


Now take a look at Hillsong Shine in Kiev. According to Hillsong Australia, Kiev Shine is identical in every way to the Australian programme—it has been directly translated to Ukrainian—provided here translated back to English:



http://shineprogram.com.ua/?r=Shine&topic=project&pageLang=en

(Should these pages revert to Ukrainian, please translate back to English via the drop-box at the bottom of the page—it’s worth it—I promise)



Please look through the Hillsong Kiev Shine pages, including the photo galleries, and wonder how this outrage can be allowed to be part of NSCP funded Scripture Union provided public school chaplaincy across Queensland, arrogantly endorsed and encouraged by Education Queensland along with:


· Hillsong STRENGTH programme for boys

· Scripture Union international SUPA club (Scripture Union Primary Age) evangelical programme (Year 3 and above)

· Scripture Union international JAFFA club (Jesus A Friend For All) evangelical programme (Prep – Year 3)

· Pathways (Paula Barrett – PSA member) Friends for Life anxiety & suicide prevention programme (Prep year upward)

· NSCP funded chaplains administering and coordinating Religious Instruction

· NSCP funded chaplains recruiting unknown numbers – certainly hundreds across the state – of unqualified volunteer Christian male and female ‘mentors’ who are accessing equally unknown numbers of ‘at risk’ (at the discretion of teachers) children on a ‘one on one for one hour’ basis weekly

· Any number of other activities, prayers at assembly, lunchtime prayer meetings and groups, Bible clubs and other clubs and programmes of undisclosed and undiscoverable content


· Ongoing recruitment for off-campus Scripture Union Jesus boot camps and church youth clubs and activities


Indeed, the NT NSCP circumstances are certainly appalling—since 2007 I have been in communication with two of the brave parents who originally complained to the Territory Ombudsman. However, the goings-on within NSCP funded state school chaplaincy in Queensland defy description (‘out of control’ comes close).

This was Anna Bligh’s response when questioned about Shine during a televised ‘people’s question time’ earlier in the year:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pww9L_v_9I4

And a couple of weeks ago with her education minister Geoff Wilson:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJM_yIVQG48

Of course, we all know that ‘secular’ was removed from the Queensland Education Act in 1910.

Just another message in a bottle folks! They keep me sane while waiting for writ processing day—my bag is packed and by the door.

All the Best,

Ron Williams

We now have the Secular Public Education Lobby (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Secular-Public-Education-Lobby/150303278337088) on facebook

[Membrain]

This article is hard to find online but is worth tracking down for an academic critique of 'Shine':

http://www.2dix.com/view/view.php?urllink=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.awe.asn.au%2Fyab bfiles%2FAttachments%2FShine_Critique_final_001.do c&searchx=hillsong%20lyrics

A good thing to send to principals considering/using the program.

[SoapyStan]

Here's an excerpt from one of the activities in the Scripture Union's JAFFA workbook.


A Book Obeyed
The story finishes with all the people that day promising to obey all of God’s words.
Practise saying the word ‘obey’ together using these simple hand actions:
Join the tip of your index finger to the tip of your thumb to form a circle on both hands while you say ‘o’; then quickly change to thumbs up while you say ‘bey’.

3. Review
How do you think our world would be different today if people read and obeyed God’s Word?


http://www.biblesociety.com.au/images/doc/The%20BIble%20lost%20and%20found%20(2).doc (http://www.biblesociety.com.au/images/doc/The%20BIble%20lost%20and%20found%20(2).doc)

Holy shit.

[davo]

I logged into facebook and looks like there is a current campaign on by the religious.

http://www.suqld.org.au/home/index.php?page=72

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

ah, religion's greatest asset: mucking around with other peoples' emotions. Fortunately it doesn't work for me anymore and if Erin is reading this I suggest to her she stop fucking around with other peoples' freedom using her story. :)

[Major Wedgie]

Yeah Erin.

Nah just messin' with ya I have no idea who Erin is.

[RealityRules]

.
Chaplains in schools are 'inadequately supervised', says NT Ombudsman, Carolyn Richards

""THE schools chaplaincy program is [now] being investigated by the Commonwealth Ombudsman after a highly critical report of its operation in the Northern Territory."" [snip]
Paying for chaplains in schools began under the prime ministership of John Howard but during the last election campaign Julia Gillard promised to double the money available for the program. This windfall will allow chaplains - all but a handful of them Christian - to work in 3700 schools in Australia by the end of this year.

The Prime Minister said in August: ''Chaplains and pastoral care workers provide general personal advice, comfort and support to all students and staff. Chaplains can help build the sense of community in the school, support the school ethos and provide additional support for vulnerable children.'' [snip]
In a report published in November, the NT Ombudsman, Carolyn Richards, found problems with the national design and the local administration of the program. After investigating complaints about the chaplains made by a number of parents in rural schools, she concluded: ''In many areas, policies and procedures associated with the chaplaincy service were found to be inadequate or non-existent.''

She condemned the federal guidelines for providing no practical and ''nationally consistent'' criteria for a person to be called a chaplain.

She criticised the access they had to classrooms and to sensitive information about children. Ms Richards questioned the capacity of schools to supervise the chaplains. But her chief recommendation was to ban one-on-one pastoral care sessions after she found chaplains were going further than providing ''a listening ear'' to children experiencing domestic violence and abuse.

www.smh.com.au/national/education/chaplains-in-schools-are-inadequately-supervised (http://www.smh.com.au/national/education/chaplains-in-schools-are-inadequately-supervised-20101231-19bzr.html)

[Goldenmane]

Saw the report in The Weekend West.

Much pleased.

[crocoduck]

Saw the report in The Weekend West.

Much pleased.

Me too Geoff.. was quietly cheering, and thinking of these forums.

[DanDare]

And yet it is still an uphill battle to kick these buggers out of our schools and stop funding them. If we do get them kicked out I bet its impossible to redirect the hundreds of millions to actual, qualified councillors. :mad:

[DanDare]

Of course, the fundies / chaplains in the US army are what we should point to when asked what harm can these good people do http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2010/12/army_declares_atheists_spiritu.php

[DanDare]

Media Release for the High Court Challenge
highcourtchallenge.com admin@highcourtchallenge.com
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE JANUARY 03, 2011

Ron Williams v. Commonwealth of Australia

Queensland parent challenges constitutional validity of Commonwealth funded National School Chaplaincy Program (NSCP) in the High Court
A Queensland parent has issued writs in the High Court against the Commonwealth Government and Scripture Union Queensland, alleging the Government has breached the Australian Constitution through its funding of a chaplain at his children’s school.

Mr Ron Williams, the father of four children attending a public school in Toowoomba, argues that Commonwealth funding of the school’s chaplain breaches sections 54 and 116 of the Constitution.
The chaplain is funded under the National Schools Chaplaincy Program (NSCP), which has provided places for 2700 chaplains in schools throughout Australia.

Mr Williams argues that the Commonwealth Government failed to follow the proper constitutional requirements in funding the NSCP, and in its agreement with Scripture Union to place a chaplain at his children’s school.
The Government failed to provide the necessary legislative appropriation provisions required by section 54 of the Constitution.

Mr Williams also argues that the NSCP requires those appointed to the public office of school chaplain at his children’s school are subject to the requirement to a religious test.

That is, they must be practising Christians, regulated and trained by Scripture Union. This, he says, breaches section 116 of the Constitution which states that ‘no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public test under the Commonwealth’.

Counsel retained by Horowitz and Bilinsky to represent Mr. Williams are Mr. Bret Walker SC and Mr. Gerald Ng.

This solo constitutional challenge by Mr. Williams is receiving financial support via a public appeal to individuals at his High Court Challenge website: highcourtchallenge.com.

(ends)

Authorised:
Ron Williams
Further Details:
highcourtchallenge.com

DETAIL

Ron Williams v. Commonwealth of Australia

A Writ of Summons and Statement of Claim was issued out of the High Court of Australia on Tuesday December 20, 2010. The details relevant to the matter are as follows:

Plaintiff:
Ronald Williams

Defendants:
Commonwealth of Australia
Minister for School Education Childhood and Youth
Minister for Finance and Deregulation
Scripture Union Queensland

As the proceedings involve a matter arising under the Constitution and involving its interpretation within the meaning of Section 78B of the Judiciary Act 1903, notices were served on the commonwealth Attorney General, each State Attorney General and upon the Attorneys General of the Northern Territory and the Australian Capital Territory.

A summary of the claim for Mr. Williams is:

(a) That the Commonwealth lacked executive power to enter into the Funding Agreement at his children’s school and as a consequence, that agreement was invalid or void;

(b) The Commonwealth lacked executive power to enter into the agreement for the provision of funding for chaplaincy services at the school;

(c) The Commonwealth could and cannot validly authorise the drawing of funds from consolidated revenue for the purposes of the funding agreement and the chaplaincy services;

(d) That in the circumstances, any chaplain retained under the funding assistance given by the Commonwealth holds office under the Commonwealth and within the meaning of Section 116 of the Constitution;

(e) By requiring school chaplains engaged at the school to comply with the stipulation set out in the NSCP Guidelines, the Commonwealth is imposing a religious test as a qualification for office under the Commonwealth in contravention of Section 116 of the Constitution;

(f) That the qualification stipulation in the agreement is void and of no effect.

Section 116 of the Constitution provides as follows:
116. Commonwealth not to legislate in respect of religion. The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.

Counsel retained by Horowitz & Bilinsky to represent Mr. Williams are Mr. Bret Walker SC and Mr. Gerald Ng.

If you want to help financially go to http://highcourtchallenge.com (http://highcourtchallenge.com/) and on the right column there are ways to contribute, including a donate button.

Additionally any horror stories to tell, let Ron Know. They are collecting a huge compendium of bad behaviour by the NSCP and its cohorts.

[DanDare]

A TOOWOOMBA father's showdown with the Commonwealth Government over school chaplains has begun.
Father-of-four Ron Williams has issued writs in the High Court alleging the government has breached the Australian Constitution through its funding of a chaplain at his children's school.
Mr Williams said he expected the constitutional challenge against the Commonwealth Government and Scripture Union Queensland to be a long and testing one.
But he said his resolve had been bolstered by messages of support from hundreds of parents across Australia through his High Court Challenge website and Facebook page.
“It's become much more important to follow through with (the challenge) now because of the hundreds of mums and dads across Australia that have contacted me and said thanks for doing this,” he said.
“We though we were alone.
“With the support our enthusiasm has only increased.”

Full Article... (http://www.thechronicle.com.au/story/2011/01/17/dads-high-court-challenge-begins-ron-williams/)

[simonecuttlefish]

I assume this has been posted before, but just in case someone missed it...

My bolding
Scathing criticism for chaplaincy program
Source: 7pm TV News NT
Published: Thursday, November 25, 2010 7:13
Expires: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 7:13

NT Ombudsman Carolyn Richards has criticised chaplains who were trying to rehabilitate a serial paedophile next to a primary school in Darwin's rural area.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2010/11/25/3076862.htm?site=darwinStill any doubts if chaplains are working outside their supposed position?

[DanDare]

From the Australian Secular Lobby
Hello All,

You may be aware that on December 20, A Writ of Summons and Statement of Claim was issued out of the High Court of Australia. They were served upon Commonwealth of Australia, the Minister for School Education Childhood and Youth, the Minister for Finance and Deregulation and Scripture Union Queensland.

Further details here: http://highcourtchallenge.com (http://highcourtchallenge.com/)

Acting upon recommendation 13 of the NT ombudsman’s report on the NSCP released late 2010, the Commonwealth ombudsman is now also preparing a report on the administration of the National School Chaplaincy Program by the Department of Education Employment and Workplace Relations (DEEWR). As of now, the Commonwealth ombudsman is accepting submissions regarding concerns parents and teachers may have with the management of the NSCP within State schools and DEEWR’s oversight of the program. Information regarding submissions can be found here:

http://www.ombudsman.gov.au/pages/making-a-complaint/

The NT ombudsman’s report is here:

http://www.ombudsman.nt.gov.au/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/INVESTIGATION-REPORT-ON-THE-OPERATION-OF-THE-CHAPLAINCY-SERVICES-WITHIN-5-GOVT-RURAL-SCHOOLS-OF-THE-NT.pdf

Should anyone wish to provide a submission to the Commonwealth ombudsman, we would suggest also providing a CC to the appropriate State or Territory ombudsman.

For Facebook participants, we would like to invite your migration from our current ASL FB group to the new Australian Secular Lobby Facebook page:

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/pages/Australian-Secular-Lobby-ASL/169174696459210 (http://www.facebook.com/home.php#%21/pages/Australian-Secular-Lobby-ASL/169174696459210)

We appreciate your support, and there will be much to do in 2011.

Best Wishes,

Australian Secular Lobby (ASL)

australiansecularlobby.com (http://australiansecularlobby.com/)

[davo]

link love removed, they don't deserve it in my book.

Includes Australian Psychological Society member Michael Carr-Gregg endorsing NSCP funded chaplains at the ACCESS dinner 2010.

http://www.cces.org.au/videos?view=1_13

[riddlemethis]

link love removed, they don't deserve it in my book.

Includes Australian Psychological Society member Michael Carr-Gregg endorsing NSCP funded chaplains at the ACCESS dinner 2010.

http://www.cces.org.au/videos?view=1_13

Poxy 'positive psychology' shill he is. That man has gone off the deep end & appears nothing more than mouthpiece for hire on any issue of 'sumwun think ov teh childrinz'!

[Slothhead]

Not sure if this has already been posted.

SavUO1hVZEw

EY9URBrsrIk

aYdiIwKxz4E

[cyclist]

I watched that compass episode last night, it was interesting to see.

I can see the value of someone like that in the school, but it shouldn't just be someone like the chaplins who are god botherers, and unqualified.

It was interesting to note how personable the two chaplains who were featured on the program. This is the danger of the whole thing, and why it is preaching by stealth. They may not be actively preaching, but how long is it before a kid trusts them enough and says "tell me more".

I had flash backs to a talk by Dr Andy Thompson about how religion usurps the traditional family bonds (terms like father, brother, and sister in a religious sense) sprang to mind, especially how they were designed to be someone who the child to relate to as an extra family member.

James

[abbafreak]

I received a press release in my inbox today about the Qld Government weighing in to the Ron Williams High Court Challenge. I was a little annoyed by this as only yesterday I received my son's high school newsletter that introduced the non qualified religious person who has been appointed as "chaplain".

So my work today involved this email to my local member:

Dear ******,

I am concerned by the Government's recent press release stating its continuing support for the installation of unqualified religious persons in Queensland state-funded and supposedly secular schools. Whilst I have no doubt that these unqualified religious persons are sincere in their personal religious beliefs I do not consider that sincerity of belief is a rational criteria or a satisfactory minimum standard to determine whether any person (religious or not) has access to state school students. It appears that for religious persons no additional qualifications are required to provide services of an indeterminate nature to students. This is certainly a much lower bar than usually applied to teachers, guidance counsellors or childcare workers.

It has recently come to my attention that a chaplain attends at my son's high school - ****** State High. I utterly reject the idea that community consultation occurred in relation to this appointment. While it may indeed have been discussed at a P&C meeting and I shall be following up with the P & C to determine when this occurred and the attempts of the school and the P&C to ensure that wider community consultation occurred.

I would urge you to consider that it is inappropriate that Queensland state schools continue to host religious persons on school premises and to raise the concerns of persons such as myself to the government.

Regards

I also emailed the principal of ****** State High and asked for details of the Local Chaplaincy Committee (how and when it was constituted) and a copy of the Chaplaincy Workprogram which must be on the website of the school (and isn't).

Shall let you know how I get on.

[wolty]

Nice AF. Let us know how you go.

[abbafreak]

Ok, got response from Principal. Committee formed in 2006, yada yada, no workplan or this year as the committee hasn't met yet but she will have a draft for me in a few weeks. And a referral to the Ed Q website (which I had already found).

I thanked her for her time and response and raised a couple of concerns. First being the general operation of the program - all supplied by Scripture Union, which doesn't really bode well for respecting diversity of religious and non-religious beliefs of the community.

I asked about the makeup of the committee as I would respectfully suggest that those with religious beliefs are not truly able to represent the views of those without. And that as I've never met a non-religious person who advocates for a chaplaincy program, is the committee only made up of those predisposed to find it worthwhile.

Finally, has there ever been an evaluation of the program to determine what actual value it adds to the education/schooling of the students.

[BlueDevil]

Well done. Keep up the good work. Will be interested to see how this saga plays out.

[DanDare]

By djarm67 in the "Go Ron Williams!" thread.

The NSCP Discussion paper has been released.

Submissions are accepted up to 18/03/2011

http://www.deewr.gov.au/Schooling/Na...ssionPaper.pdf (http://www.deewr.gov.au/Schooling/NationalSchoolChaplaincyProgram/Documents/NationalSchoolChaplaincy_DiscussionPaper.pdf)


There are a series of questions at the end of the discussion paper.

We should get together a bullet point list of issues that we can all add our individuality to in our submissions.

DJ

The paper is close to being a push poll and it quotes studies like the Mr 97% Porkie goes to Canberra uncritically.

I suggest we make submissions that strongly emphasis that chaplains should be totally non-religious supplied by organisations that have no theological axe to grind. Then watch the squirming.

[RealityRules]

Non-religious chaplains idea angers Christians
Michael Bachelard
February 13, 2011

EDUCATION Minister Peter Garrett is considering funding non-religious ''pastoral care workers'' under the controversial school chaplains program, but the religious lobby is warning him not to muddy the waters.

Mr Garrett's review of the $437 million federally funded National School Chaplaincy Program confirms that the vast majority of chaplains - 98.52 per cent - are Christian even though only 64 per cent of Australians identify as Christian.

People with no religion make up 19 per cent of the population and only 0.01 per cent of chaplains.

Schools must exhaust all possibilities of finding a suitable religious chaplain before they are able to apply for a secular person.

A discussion paper, released on Friday, confirms that a ''large number of stakeholders'' wanted non-faith-based chaplains because they could help non-religious children and enlarge the available talent pool.

But the Australian Christian Lobby's Victorian chief Rob Ward said: ''I don't know what Peter [Garrett] is up to … he's muddying the waters.''

The woman in charge of the Victorian chaplaincy program, Evonne Paddison from Access Ministries, said spirituality was a ''very significant part of being''.

''The majority of the world is religious and the majority of Australians are faith-based and we … want to talk about the meaning of life and those issues,'' she said.

The paper also suggests a minimum qualification of a certificate IV in youth work be required before people be allowed into schools as chaplains.

www.theage.com.au/national/nonreligious-chaplains-idea-angers-christians (http://www.theage.com.au/national/nonreligious-chaplains-idea-angers-christians-20110212-1ardz.html)

" .. we … want to talk about the meaning of life and those issues." = they want to proselytise.

[nibble]

"only 64 per cent of Australians identify as Christian"

We need to get this number much lower. Which is why the upcoming census is so important.

[Worldslaziestbusker]

...and the majority of Australians are faith-based and...

...and the majority of Australians tick a box, or have a box ticked on their behalf, denoting them as being of a particular faith which they either don't understand well or ignore altogether and...

Fixed that for Evonne Paddison.

[ABridgeTooFar]

Creating jobs for secular chaplains doesn't solve the problem. It still opens the door for unqualified people to gain access to school children, and it doesn't take the religious motives out of the role of a Christian chaplain.

Mr Garret should just realize the whole program is a waste of money, and the $400 million should be going towards getting qualified psychologists/counselors into schools.

[DanDare]

Although I am making a submission, I notice that this discussion paper is timed to pre-empt the ombudsman's investigation and the high court challenge.

[RealityRules]

...this discussion paper is timed to pre-empt the ombudsman's investigation and the high court challenge.

Interesting that they felt the need for a discussion paper and submissions, especially before independent bodies pass separate judgement.

[DanDare]

I thought so. I have the discussion paper from April 2010. I made a submission then. Nothing substantive has happened. Its 154k as a .doc, so too big to upload here. I'll just put the relevant text for comparison.

Background

The National School Chaplaincy Program (NSCP) was announced in 2006 to support schools to establish or expand school chaplaincy services. Total funding of $165 million was allocated to the program, with two funding rounds conducted in 2007 (Round 1 outcomes were announced in July 2007 and Round 2 outcomes announced in October 2007).


Broadly, the intended objective of chaplaincy/pastoral
<snip>
Reviewing the National School Chaplaincy Program

Purpose of this issues paper

In August 2009, the Department of Employment, Education and Workplace Relations (DEEWR), which administers the NSCP, commenced a review of the program and began collecting feedback from some of the major stakeholders of the NSCP – the state/territory governments who are responsible for government schools, and the Catholic and Independent school systems. This information, together with information DEEWR collects from schools participating in the program and information provided by the major chaplaincy service providers, was used to inform the Australian Government’s decision to extend the NSCP until the end of 2011. The Australian Government also determined that a national consultation process should be conducted in 2010, seeking views on the NSCP from a broad range of stakeholders and interested members of the public.


The purpose of this paper is to provide a summary of feedback received to date on the NSCP and to identify key issues to be explored during the consultation meetings between DEEWR representatives and your organisation. It is not intended to be an exhaustive list of discussion points and you are free to raise any issues or options for the NSCP that you wish during the consultation process.
Consultation Process

The national consultation process will examine the effectiveness of the NSCP and its suitability to address current/future needs and priorities. It will provide a review of NSCP activities and achievements, an overview of student and school support services available outside of the NSCP, and consider the relationship between the NSCP and these services. This will include any gaps or overlaps, an examination of the degree to which chaplains may undertake a unique role and contrast the role of secular support workers and chaplains.


Process
The national consultation process will be broadly divided into two stages:



Stage One –stakeholder meetings
Stage Two – public discussion paper


<snip>
Information sources

In late 2009 preliminary feedback on the NSCP and other evaluation information was sought from a variety of sources. Key sources were:




State and Territory Education Departments.

DEEWR wrote to all State and Territory Education Department Directors-General in August 2009 requesting feedback on a number of aspects of the NSCP.




Faith-Based and Independent School Systems.

In August 2009 DEEWR also wrote to the major faith-based and independent school associations requesting feedback on the NSCP.




Feedback from Schools


Progress Reports



DEEWR requires each school funded under the program to provide a Progress Report on their chaplaincy service in order to obtain each funding instalment. These Progress Reports detail the types of activities undertaken by chaplains, their interactions with the school community and the level of ongoing support for the chaplaincy service in the wider school community.



Monitoring Visits


DEEWR undertakes monitoring visits to a large number of schools throughout Australia and speaks directly to school staff and chaplains about the operation of the NSCP.




Feedback from Chaplaincy Service Providers


National School Chaplaincy Association (NSCA) Report



The National School Chaplaincy Association (an organisation representing the major government school chaplaincy service providers) commissioned the Edith Cowan University’s School of Psychology and Social Science to undertake a study examining the effectiveness of NSCA chaplaincy services. The report was released on 13 October 2009.




Ministerial Correspondence

The Deputy Prime Minister and DEEWR regularly receive correspondence from the participants in the program and the public, providing information and perspectives on the National School Chaplaincy Program and related issues.


6. Complaints
Complaints received about implementation of the program are monitored by DEEWR, with appropriate action taken upon receipt. Issues and trends have been considered in the development of this paper.
<snip>

Program Benefits
Respondents were asked to describe the contribution the National School Chaplaincy Program has made to schools in their jurisdictions and to list aspects of the program which worked well.
The following points were consistently mentioned:


The flexibility of the NSCP allowed schools to develop programs to address their specific needs.
Chaplains were on-site so knew the school culture and specific issues facing students.
Given that chaplains were not seen as school staff and had no teaching load, students were more open and comfortable with them and chaplains were more available to students.
There were notable positive effects on student behaviour with a decrease in anti-social behaviours and increases in self-esteem, emotional and spiritual wellbeing and resilience.
Chaplains were able to provide proactive, immediate and case-specific early intervention services, helping to prevent escalation or entrenchment of issues. They were also able to identify and assist ‘at-risk’ children and were particularly valued in primary schools where there can be more limited access to counsellors.
Chaplains provided confidential support for students, parents/families and staff and were able to refer individuals and families to outside agencies and support services as needed. Schools frequently noted the role of chaplains in improving family liaison and greater ‘links’ to the wider community.
Chaplains were able to provide support for general values and relationship development rather than just a specific religious focus and provided programs for certain specific issues such as grief & loss.
Chaplains were vital at times of crisis such as the Victorian bushfires and times of conflict or loss and were seen as a resource for students, staff and the broader school community.



Areas for improvement
Respondents were also asked to describe aspects of the program which did not work well. Issues raised were:


A minimum level of qualifications should be required
Professional development needs to be both improved and mandatory
The available budget usually restricted chaplains to part-time work
Some schools had difficulty developing duty statements for chaplains due to the flexibility of the NSCP Guidelines (It should be noted that this flexibility was also seen as one of the program’s strengths)
Some school staff and parents were concerned about the religious connotations of the program and the term “chaplain” (for example, in South Australia the preferred term is ‘Christian Pastoral Support Worker’).

<snip>
It should be noted that while 1626 public school principals were surveyed, only 688 principals (42%) responded. Response rates were better from the chaplains themselves with 1031 chaplains of 1396 surveyed responding (74%). In addition, no NSW schools participated as the NSW Education Department declined to participate. No chaplaincy provider in the Northern Territory is a member of the NSCA and so this jurisdiction was not surveyed.
<big snip>


If any one would like to host this somewhere PM me and I will mail it to you.

That last paragraph is about the Cowan University survey conducted by a partisan christian. Its the one that stated 97% of school principles thought chaplains were very effective in schools. It was not a random sample so statistical extrapolation is unsafe. Instead they should say that of the 42% of principals that responded 97% were on side. That is an actual total of 40.7%.

The new discussion paper seems to ignore the many submissions given to the original paper.

[DanDare]

Also regards the survey, note that only those schools with chaplains were surveyed. Of the schools not surveyed any number of them could be without a chaplain because they believe chaplains to be inappropriate. Of the total schools in Australia it is thus only a small percentage that consider chaplains to be of benefit. Finally, the question itself provides little evidence for the actual efficacy of chaplains, comparison of chaplains with a secular alternative to provide the same service, or of the harms to students, the school system and its duty of care, or to the parents and their relationship with child and school. The study is a meaningless piece of propoganda on behalf of the chaplain providers.

[DanDare]

One of the things that strikes me is this argument how cool and flexible it is for chaplains not to be tied up with all the restrictions placed on qualified councillors.

Excuse me ?! :eek:

The restrictions placed on qualified councillors are there for very good reason, and despite their qualification and training. We are to relax such controls for religious zealots with barely two sticks to rub together in the way of qualification? Fuck that for a joke!

[ABridgeTooFar]

The word 'unprofessional' sums up my experience of chaplains throughout high school. Breaking education department guidelines was a daily occurrence.

[BlueDevil]

Creating jobs for secular chaplains doesn't solve the problem. It still opens the door for unqualified people to gain access to school children, and it doesn't take the religious motives out of the role of a Christian chaplain.

Mr Garret should just realize the whole program is a waste of money, and the $400 million should be going towards getting qualified psychologists/counselors into schools.

+1 The kids should be getting properly trained psychologists/counsellors. A 'secular chaplain' with proper training would be better than having religious chaplains trying to get some converts on the sly, but I still don't think it is ideal.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

+1 The kids should be getting properly trained psychologists/counsellors. A 'secular chaplain' with proper training would be better than having religious chaplains trying to get some converts on the sly, but I still don't think it is ideal.

The word 'unprofessional' sums up my experience of chaplains throughout high school. Breaking education department guidelines was a daily occurrence.

One of the things that strikes me is this argument how cool and flexible it is for chaplains not to be tied up with all the restrictions placed on qualified councillors.

Excuse me ?! :eek:

The restrictions placed on qualified councillors are there for very good reason, and despite their qualification and training. We are to relax such controls for religious zealots with barely two sticks to rub together in the way of qualification? Fuck that for a joke!
+100 to all the quoted posts.

I did not even know there were such things as "secular chaplains" at all. And even if there was, this would create a large loophole for religious fuckjobs to go through. And without all the restrictions, we may as well hire Sheikh Al Hilaly instead.

[BlueDevil]

+100 to all the quoted posts.

I did not even know there were such things as "secular chaplains" at all.

Croc I am not sure if such a thing as secular chaplains exists at present, or whether it is just a proposal. Anyone know for sure?

This seems to imply it is just a proposal:
EDUCATION Minister Peter Garrett is considering funding non-religious ''pastoral care workers''but the quote below seems to imply there may already be a mechanism for having secular chaplains:

Schools must exhaust all possibilities of finding a suitable religious chaplain before they are able to apply for a secular person.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

BlueDevil: "Secular chaplain" and "secular pastoral worker" sounds suspiciously contradictory in my opinion. Probably more using the "chaplain" and "pastoral worker" as a job title, but from what I understand, most job titles come with obligations. What's next? A secular pope?

[Ford]

What is a School Counsellor if not a secular chaplain?
Sorry, I guess a counsellor has qualifications!

[Membrain]

Responses to the National School Chaplaincy Discussion paper must be made on a form (Appendix D).
How does someone who thinks the whole chaplaincy program should be scrapped response to these questions right up front of the form:

Do you support the introduction of minimum qualifications for school chaplains?
 Yes
 No
 Unsure
Do you support the introduction of a minimum Certificate IV (Associate Diploma) in Youth Work or similar
(e.g. pastoral care, community services)?
 Yes
 No, I think the minimum qualification should be lower
 No, I think the minimum qualification should be higher
 No, I don’t think there should be minimum qualifications
What should be the minimum entry qualifications?
 High School Certificate
 Certificate II or III
 Certificate IV
 Bachelor / University degree

So many people who don't want the program AT ALL will be conned into ticking the 'least harmful' options above ('yes' to more/higher qualifications) which presumably will then be used to modify rather than REMOVE the chaplaincy program altogether. How can it fail when submissions must address these questions?

Why wasn't the first question:
Do you think the Chaplaincy program for schools should be
1. scrapped
2. scrapped and replaced by a new counselling service
3. scrapped and the money channelled into existing guidance services

How are you guys framing your submissions with this form - are you just not ticking any of the boxes?

[DanDare]

I am prefacing the form with a written submission of my own choosing and only reframing the forms questions in light of my submission. The "discussion paper" is actually a push poll. Ignore it and send in what you really think.

[DanDare]

From the Herald Sun
Expel God from classrooms
SUSIE O'BRIEN, Herald Sun (http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/), February 15, 2011 12:00AM

Many kids need greater help from professional counsellors who can do more than just tell them that God cares for them.

THE National School Chaplaincy Program should be abolished.
Why are one in three state schools paying $20,000 a year for someone to preach what many consider is a work of fiction -- the Bible -- when there are much better uses for this money?


Yes, many of our school kids need more support, but they need help from trained counsellors, not chaplains just telling kids that God cares for them.
Access Ministries, which provides chaplains ministering to 200,000 students in Victorian schools, wants to reach every student in the state with the gospel.


Join the vision and help us transform this nation for God, their website says.


See? Its not just about helping kids, but spreading the word of the Lord.


And the last time I checked, that's what churches and church-run schools are for, not publicly funded staff members in secular state schools.

Full Article (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion-old/expel-god-from-class/story-fn56aaiq-1226005967355)...

[Praxis]

I'm so thrilled that the issue has been given such a big space in such a major publication (although I hate the HS - home of Bolt and Devine :rolleyes: ).

Susie O'Brien is coping well with the predictable slurs on her article, but some responses are just mind-boggling, including the apparently genuine question "but what's wrong with telling children when they're upset that someone up there loves them?" - what's wrong with it? Where should we start?!

Anyway, jump in and comment away. For some reason my comment got published four times :o - it's not like it's a particularly good one either, it wsa off the cuff and not very thought out, but at least it's heartfelt.

Get to it.

[Dane]

http://www.deewr.gov.au/Ministers/Garrett/Media/Releases/Pages/Article_110211_140430.aspx

Fly, my pretties, fly!

Translation: the AFA is definitely going to send them a submission, yeah? Including the stuff about the scripture union being quite clearly an evangelical Christian organisation, that chaplains are acting outside their purview by counseling children, and other stuff from the psychologist groups that I can't quite remember?

Edit: Oh derr, it's already in the family matters forum in the chaplaincy thread.

[Praxis]

Edit: Oh derr, it's already in the family matters forum in the chaplaincy thread.
Yes, it's getting a bit complicated. I think all threads on the topic should be moved to Family Matters - there's still some in other areas, including the Ron Williams thread.

To merge them all would be to invite chaos so having them all in the one forum area will have to do.

It's certainly a vigorous topic of discussions!

[DanDare]

Given that it is now a full on political stoush perhaps these threads would collect more readers and writers in the news forum? Here is some news from Geoff Wilson MP (http://geoffwilsonmp.com/media.php?id=562):

http://geoffwilsonmp.com/data/Chaplains.jpg I want to acknowledge the important place our school chaplains hold within a school community, offering support, guidance and positivity to our young people.
The Bligh Government is well aware of the great work chaplains do in our schools supporting not just students, but also teachers, staff and parents and is fully supportive of Queensland’s school chaplain service and their valuable contribution.
We strongly support chaplains and that’s why the State Government has made the decision to intervene in a High Court matter which claims it is illegal for chaplains to work in our schools and a breach of the constitution.
I have written to local churches and businesses who provide support to chaplains and pastoral care to inform them of this challenge, and reiterate the Bligh Government’s support for the work of chaplains continuing in our schools.

[Major Wedgie]

Those people occupy space that could be better used for air.

[DanDare]

There is an online submission form (http://www.surveys.dest.gov.au/nsurvey.aspx?surveyid=2505396a8674ae09927471283bed 581) for the government discussion of chaplains.

Here is the gist of my submission:

Question 4
What elements are most important for minimum qualifications for schools chaplains? (you can select more than one option)

Youth work - yes
Referral expertise - yes
Theological expertise
Negotiation skills
Recognition of life experience
Counselling skills
Other: (please provide details) -yes

That they DO NOT represent a faith position or are employed by a religious/faith based employer.

That they have MORE constraints on their behaviour than qualified counsellors, not fewer.

Question 5
Are there any other comments you would like to make about the qualifications of chaplains?

Supporting the need for qualifications is not also support for chaplains. Chaplains should not be in our public schools at all, so this support for qualifications is only in the circumstance where chaplains are to continue and is otherwise moot.

Question 6
Do you support the introduction of minimum standards for service providers under the program?
Yes - tick
No
Unsure

Question 7
What elements are most important for minimum standards for service providers?

That they have NO religious/faith agenda or political agenda, that there is no way they can see their chaplains as recruiters for their beliefs and that they do not even suggest such a thing in communications with their own stakeholders.


Question 8
Are there any other comments you would like to make about the minimum standards for service providers?

Although the original rules for school chaplaincy indicated no proselytising and no counselling the current service providers are doing just that and making end runs around those rules by taking children off to non school camps and proselytising there. The schools have been complicit in this by making it impossible for parents to avoid the chaplains proselytising efforts by marrying the chaplain to normal school activities, no chaplain access to the child, no access to school activities for the child.

The service providers and the schools must be audited regularly to prevent this behaviour if chaplaincy continues in schools. It would be better for all concerned if it did not.

Question 9
Do you support the current arrangements which require schools to attempt to employ a chaplain before being able to employ a secular pastoral care worker?

No I do not. Schools should only be allowed to employ secular pastoral care workers if it is necessary to have such a position at all.

Question 10
Do you support modification of the program to give schools the choice of a non-faithbased support worker or youth worker?

As suggested in my response to question 9 this should be the only choice if indeed such a position is required. A 'secular' person could indeed have any personal faith or a lack of one but they would be well trained and audited to ensure that they do not impose their private prejudice while performing their work.


Question 11
Are there any other comments you would like to make about the choice of support worker?

If secular youth workers are to be 'para counsellors' they must work under even more rigorous controls and oversight than the counsellors. The schools choice should actually then be between para-counsellors and full blown counsellors.

Question 12
What models of administration would support innovative delivery under the program?

Why do you need innovative delivery? What do you even mean by this question? The workers are under the same duty of care conditions as the counsellors. Perhaps they should be school employees directly and get rid of the "service providers" from the loop. they are, after all, the worst part of the program, having an agenda outside that of the government school service.

Question 13
What innovative models of delivery would support rural, remote and disadvantaged schools to maximise the effectiveness of funding they could receive under the program? (you can select more than one option)
Cluster models
Pooled funding
Other: (please provide details)

No idea.

Question 14
Are there any other comments you would like to make about innovative delivery models?

Funding of specific school functions, such as counselling, by outside sources is rife with conflict of interest. Especially where the outside sources are not themselves merely parents of children at the school but politically or religiously motivated groups that want a say in indoctrinating the children or manipulating their education.

Question 15
Are there any other comments you would like to make about the program?

The chaplaincy program is anathema to a secular society and allows enormous conflicts of interest to effect our children, their relationship with their parents and their education. The program provides back door funding by the government directly to religious groups. The children in our schools have many immediate needs that are not being addressed and the chaplaincy program should be scrapped and chaplains denied access to our public schools.

[bruce1937]

There is an online submission form (http://www.surveys.dest.gov.au/nsurvey.aspx?surveyid=2505396a8674ae09927471283bed 581) for the government discussion of chaplains.

Here is the gist of my submission:

Question 4
What elements are most important for minimum qualifications for schools chaplains? (you can select more than one option)



Question 5
Are there any other comments you would like to make about the qualifications of chaplains?



Question 6
Do you support the introduction of minimum standards for service providers under the program?


Question 7
What elements are most important for minimum standards for service providers?



Question 8
Are there any other comments you would like to make about the minimum standards for service providers?



Question 9
Do you support the current arrangements which require schools to attempt to employ a chaplain before being able to employ a secular pastoral care worker?



Question 10
Do you support modification of the program to give schools the choice of a non-faithbased support worker or youth worker?



Question 11
Are there any other comments you would like to make about the choice of support worker?



Question 12
What models of administration would support innovative delivery under the program?



Question 13
What innovative models of delivery would support rural, remote and disadvantaged schools to maximise the effectiveness of funding they could receive under the program? (you can select more than one option)
Cluster models
Pooled funding
Other: (please provide details)



Question 14
Are there any other comments you would like to make about innovative delivery models?



Question 15
Are there any other comments you would like to make about the program?




A very good response I think, well done

[abbafreak]

I decided to post a response. Here are the selected highlights:

Q4:

The most important qualification for anyone working in schools is that of a relevant degree irrespective of religious orientation. No free pass should be given to those of any particular religious suasion. Properly trained counsellors should be employed and god left at the church door.

Q5:

It hardly seems any point to having a minimum qualification standard when the overriding qualification they possess is that they believe in the supernatural. Hardly any point in educating them really is there?

Q10:

Absolutely. If the goal of the program is to provide support to students and not proselytise, then surely there is nothing to fear from having a secular trained counsellor providing support to the students.

[Perspective]

I was unaware of that funding and we just got rid of our Chaplain so I'm concerned.

I am however trying to fight a battle where my children are told to stand up at every Friday morning assembly and say the Lords Prayer and the School creed which involves 'Love God' I might add this is a Public School.

I'm stuck on how to proceed as they have decided it's a private voting matter for school councillors and the christians are winning out apparently.

[DanDare]

I am however trying to fight a battle where my children are told to stand up at every Friday morning assembly and say the Lords Prayer and the School creed which involves 'Love God' I might add this is a Public School.
:eek:

Could you please inform us which school?

[Craftycarp]

There is an online submission form (http://www.surveys.dest.gov.au/nsurvey.aspx?surveyid=2505396a8674ae09927471283bed 581) for the government discussion of chaplains.

Everyone should get on board and make their submission - it took me five minutes.

My main points were that

* "theology" is not a qualification for dealing with children,
* that this program should be transformed to provide more counselling support for schools without any religious content at all
* and that support programs which proselytise have no proven advantage over programs with no religious content therefore
* the religious requirement is illogical and wasteful of our taxes.

[DanDare]

Succinctly put CC, well done. Yes, everyone make submissions.

[Pythagoras]

I've put in my submission. Everyone should do so.

My main point was that "chaplains" should have appropriate qualifications for dealing with social issues and mental health issues, e.g. a degree in social work, psychology or psychiatry. That excludes most of the nutbags from evangelical organisations.

One question suggests that the policy is that religious chaplains must be hired in preference to secular "pastoral" workers. If they are forbidden to proselytize as the policy states, what is the point of having chaplains rather than qualified counsellors without explicit religious bias?

It makes no sense that, in a pluralistic society, people from organizations whose explicitly stated purpose is to proselytize are given free access to children in secular taxpayer-funded schools. It's not right!

You knew all that anyway, of course.

[wolty]

Done.

[Perspective]

Done - hope it helps

[davo]

Check out this job advertisement (http://www.linkme.com.au/jobs/bellerive-tas-7018/none/5eda44ad191e4e60834288ee55f7da0e-school-chaplain?backToSearchType=advancedJobSearch&backToResultIndex=519&Country=1&SortOrder=2&Industries=none)

Not only is it showing clearly a religious test for a government position, against the constitution, but it clearly states the person has to be actively involved in a christian community

hat tip to askegg for the link!

[Praxis]

I am so confused now! There's so many threads all relating to basically the same thing: the NSCP.

I have responded re submissions in one of the other threads. I did mine last week.

MEANWHILE: Askegg has posted this on FB and I reproduce the link here so you can all have a look.

This is an advertisement for a school chaplain in Tasmania. Have a read and decide for yourself if those bleating about what a great program it is, how it's not really religiously motivated and how 'chappies' aren't allowed to preach or proselytise, are telling the truth or Lying for Jesus (again): http://www.linkme.com.au/jobs/bellerive-tas-7018/none/5eda44ad191e4e60834288ee55f7da0e-school-chaplain?backToSearchType=advancedJobSearch&backToResultIndex=519&Country=1&SortOrder=2&Industries=none

[davo]

JINX!!! we both posted at the same time :) well close enough ....

[Praxis]

hehehe - we must link pinkies and make a wish!

[davo]

You know what they say about great minds thinking alike ;)

[DanDare]

I don't suppose any of you managed to archive a copy? The linked page has been taken down.

[BlueDevil]

I don't suppose any of you managed to archive a copy? The linked page has been taken down.

As it happens, I did:

School Chaplain

Part time; Bellerive TAS 7018

IndustryNot specifiedJob TypePart timeLocationBellerive TAS 7018Ref No.20625802229AdvertiserSCRIPTURE UNION OF TAS INCPosted date19 February 2011 (Posted 8 days 17 hours ago)
School Chaplain
Hobart College

School Chaplain
This position will commence on 11th April, 2011, funded by the Federal Government under the National Schools Chaplaincy Program. As the employer of school chaplains, Scripture Union Tasmania is inviting applications for a Chaplain at:
Hobart College
(2 days/week 15.2 hrs)
Applicants should be able to accept, respect and relate to all members of the diverse school community, be actively involved in a Christian community, have experience and confidence in working with young people and have or be willing to obtain appropriate qualifications (e.g. in youth work, counselling, teaching, or theology).
Application details including a position description and selection criteria are available from jill.chisholm@academy.tas.edu.au or phone 03 6220 3133. Applications close at 5pm on Monday 7th March 2011.
School Chaplaincy is an initiative of the Tasmanian Council of Churches through its Chaplaincy Working Group, supported by Scripture Union.

[askegg]

I don't suppose any of you managed to archive a copy? The linked page has been taken down.

Screen capture for your enjoyment.

http://f.cl.ly/items/2n2g3X0T1t1x2r3R1Q37/Screen%20shot%202011-02-28%20at%204.45.33%20PM.png

[Loki]

Since when is theology a useful qualification for a chaplain who is not permitted to prosetylyse or counsel?

Any Taswegians planning on getting a copy of the position description and selection criteria and perhaps applying?

If so keep us in the loop, many lulz could be had.

Does debating doorknocking JW's count as being actively involved in a Christian community?

[askegg]

Any Taswegians planning on getting a copy of the position description and selection criteria and perhaps applying?

I was soooo close. Might do it in the morning.

Update: I have requested a PD from the admin officer.

Oh, here is what the Scripture Union Tasmania (http://www.sutas.org.au/) currently has on their web site.

http://f.cl.ly/items/0I2m012g2K20132I3l2T/Screen%20shot%202011-02-27%20at%2010.55.09%20PM.png

Read the Bible every week! No agenda here. Move along. Nothing to see.

[Centauri]

"meet with god"

i.e.

"let me introduce you to our imaginary friend"

[ABridgeTooFar]

Every time i see this "spread the word of God in schools" nonsense, it reminds me of:

(skip to 3.30)
OcdUrufzXzk#t=210s

They want to pollute every public school with their religious dogma because they wont be satisfied with their own beliefs until everyone else believes they are going to be "saved" and live for eternity.

[davo]

Askegg I sent for info on the position earlier today too ...

[BlueDevil]

Wow....looks like we may have some AFA chaplains in the system soon. Good luck with the job application! :D

[askegg]

Position Description received. Get your copy here. Point 8 is interesting.

www.godless.biz/wp-content/uploads/PDChaplain.doc

http://www.godless.biz/wp-content/uploads/AimsBeliefWorkingPrinciples.pdf

http://www.godless.biz/wp-content/uploads/ChaplainQuals.pdf

[Emmy]

This thread reminded me of this:

http://www.27bslash6.com/easter.html

I found it hysterical, and hope you enjoy it!!

[DanDare]

http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/dear-god-get-the-hell-out-of-our-schools/

Dear God: Get the hell out of our schools!

Whatever happened to the separation of church and state?
I know, it’s actually the “principle of state neutrality” but let’s not split hairs right now.
Our schools are even more tainted than those in your country – the U S of A – where the teaching of creationism as science in public schools is deemed unconstitutional.
Here, taxpayer dollars fund religious schools, as well as chaplaincy programs for public and private schools.
And it’s a bit more than 30 pieces of silver. That great galumphing God-botherer, Kevin Rudd, increased the funding to $222 million. (Does he bother you? He sure as hell bothered us.)
According to the website, school chaplains are “in the prevention and rescue business… helping students find a better way to deal with family breakdown, loneliness, drug abuse, depression and suicide”.
In the words of Voltaire, “Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense”.


Its an ok article but what gave me the shits was the comments. These old arguments again and again and again. How deeply is this fail embedded in the minds of the public?

Only christians can be relied upon to show compassion.
Evilution is an atheist philosophy.
Chaplains are just carers with no agenda.
etc. etc. etc. :mad:

[ABridgeTooFar]

What part of: "If we wanted a religious education, we would have sent our kids to a Christian school." Don't these morons understand? They only want religious presence in public schools so they can increase their following by brainwashing the vulnerable (kids) while their parents are not around.

Its childish and pathetic to say the least.

[Major Wedgie]

Look it's not a difficult thing to grasp at all. Religious kids are more automaton than free thinker. Unlike Atheist kids they are programmed to comply and behave. As a parent why wouldn't you want that?

[Durro]

I have just become the Treasurer of my kids' school's P&C Association. To my horror, I've found out that the P&C subsidizes a school chaplain to the tune of $13,000 a year. So, one of my main priorities is to move that this funding be withdrawn. It's paid quarterly in $3250 amounts.

I am going to take my time to make a comprehensive submission, pointing out the evangelical/proselytising nature of the scripture union (which provides the chaplain), the SU's opposition to evolution, birth control, homosexuality and other issues, the lack of qualifications of chaplains in dealing with student crises and the complete waste of time religious education is in school, which complain that there isn't enough contact teaching time as it is.

Additionally, my children are now being discriminated against thanks to the religious education program. Both of my children have been told that "god hates them" and that they are "going to burn in hell" because they're non-believers in magic and superstition.

I also have some of the SU's documents which show their true nature and goals.

I hold the opinion that the $13,000 could be put to far better use, such as employing a properly trained counsellor or psychologist.

Wish me luck.

Durro

[Sieveboy]

I have just become the Treasurer of my kids' school's P&C Association. To my horror, I've found out that the P&C subsidizes a school chaplain to the tune of $13,000 a year. So, one of my main priorities is to move that this funding be withdrawn. It's paid quarterly in $3250 amounts.

I am going to take my time to make a comprehensive submission, pointing out the evangelical/proselytising nature of the scripture union (which provides the chaplain), the SU's opposition to evolution, birth control, homosexuality and other issues, the lack of qualifications of chaplains in dealing with student crises and the complete waste of time religious education is in school, which complain that there isn't enough contact teaching time as it is.

Additionally, my children are now being discriminated against thanks to the religious education program. Both of my children have been told that "god hates them" and that they are "going to burn in hell" because they're non-believers in magic and superstition.

I also have some of the SU's documents which show their true nature and goals.

I hold the opinion that the $13,000 could be put to far better use, such as employing a properly trained counsellor or psychologist.

Wish me luck.

Durro

No luck wishing from me, you will get it done. Simple. No appeals to super natural forces. :)

I will back up your position as logical and correct, $13k towards a school anti bullying program perhaps?

[Praxis]

Hey Durro! Great to see you and sorry that you've run smack up against this odious program.

Lots of good threads about it in here. I also recommend checking Andrew Skegg's FB page on stopping the NSCP program (Stop the National Schools Chaplaincy Program). The discussion has been going on for quite a while now and the voices of dissent are growing louder.

I've no doubt you'll make your voice heard in a clear and concise way and I wish you all the best with it.

The whole thing is a disgrace and the sooner it's dismantled the better.

[bruce1937]

I have just become the Treasurer of my kids' school's P&C Association. To my horror, I've found out that the P&C subsidizes a school chaplain to the tune of $13,000 a year. So, one of my main priorities is to move that this funding be withdrawn. It's paid quarterly in $3250 amounts.

I am going to take my time to make a comprehensive submission, pointing out the evangelical/proselytising nature of the scripture union (which provides the chaplain), the SU's opposition to evolution, birth control, homosexuality and other issues, the lack of qualifications of chaplains in dealing with student crises and the complete waste of time religious education is in school, which complain that there isn't enough contact teaching time as it is.

Additionally, my children are now being discriminated against thanks to the religious education program. Both of my children have been told that "god hates them" and that they are "going to burn in hell" because they're non-believers in magic and superstition.

I also have some of the SU's documents which show their true nature and goals.

I hold the opinion that the $13,000 could be put to far better use, such as employing a properly trained counsellor or psychologist.

Wish me luck.

Durro

Good on you. Go for it and give them a dose of their hell.

[SoapyStan]

I also have some of the SU's documents which show their true nature and goals.

Good luck Durro. I assume you've found SU Qld's website for chaplaincy applicants. It's highly informative. I've been showing it to people I know who think the chappies are essentially harmless. If only there were more parents like you who were willing & able to do something.

It really worries me that fundamentalist Christianity seems to have achieved such broad community support here in Qld. And it's kids like yours who are on the receiving end.

[Goldenmane]

http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/dear-god-get-the-hell-out-of-our-schools/



Its an ok article but what gave me the shits was the comments. These old arguments again and again and again. How deeply is this fail embedded in the minds of the public?

Only christians can be relied upon to show compassion.
Evilution is an atheist philosophy.
Chaplains are just carers with no agenda.
etc. etc. etc. :mad:

I just read that. Jesus fuck, but there are a lot of people out there who don't know their arse from a hole in the ground. Pascal's Idiotic Wager, Kalam Cosmological Wankery, blatant fucking lying... It's like a perfect storm of arsehattery.

[RealityRules]

I have just become the Treasurer of my kids' school's P&C Association. To my horror, I've found out that the P&C subsidizes a school chaplain to the tune of $13,000 a year. So, one of my main priorities is to move that this funding be withdrawn. It's paid quarterly in $3250 amounts.

Additionally, my children are now being discriminated against thanks to the religious education program. Both of my children have been told that "god hates them" and that they are "going to burn in hell" because they're non-believers in magic and superstition.


Best wishes. Take care that the P & C is not stacked against you. It seems to be a wierd situation where a P & C is often only 4-10% of the school P & C community, so is not necessarily be representative of the school community, thus making it susceptible to manipulation by factions such as religious nutters,

You may only get one shot at it, so make sure it is a good one.

Maybe make the big points in your submission first eg.


the lack of qualifications of chaplains in dealing with student crises, and
the dubious benefit of religious involvement and education is in school,

What about the P & C budget and income - do they have big projects that keep getting on the back-burner that would benefit from the $13K?

What is the % of support you are likely to get

in the P & C Assn, and
the school in general.


Would you be better first trying to ensure govt funding is fully sourced (hoping Ron Williams wins and the funding dries up)?

[DanDare]

Excellent! Can you post your final work so we can start building a parent P&C assault kit here?

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

I suggest doing this in the lounge where it is privately accessible. Just in case some looney is reading. :)

[DanDare]

I suggest doing this in the lounge where it is privately accessible. Just in case some looney is reading. :)
What if they are? Its not a secret really.

[RealityRules]

What if they are? Its not a secret really.

It is easy to stack a P & C with Xtian fundies than a pro-secular group, and the fundies are aware of the need to stack P & C mtgs one meeting ahead

i.e. you have to join the previous meeting - you cannot vote at a mtg you have just joined at.

[Ford]

Excellent! Can you post your final work so we can start building a parent P&C assault kit here?

Perhaps we need a Political Party assault kit. I know we have all tried in our own ways, but has there been requests for policy positions from parties? We know the Catholic church will nobble the Libs but what about the Greens and Labor? I now intend to send letters to my local members asking what is his/her party's position on funding (religious, Christian) chaplains in preferecne to funding trained School Counsellors.
A kit mailed out to all our members' contacts to be returned and presented to party leaders might cause some to wonder if pandering to the Christian minority is a good idea.
BTW, just read David Marr's 'High Price of Heaven' in which he relates how the RC church and Howard colluded to impose the RC agenda on the country. It was all about delivering blocks of votes, folks.
Perhaps an item for the AFA meeting agenda?

[SoapyStan]

My feeling (for what it's worth) is that parents need to make a stand against the chaplaincy programme at a grass-roots level. Not everyone can get to be treasurer of the P&C, but it should be possible to find like-minded parents who share their concerns about school chaplaincy and want to do something about it. If most parents, after being shown the facts about groups like SU, still think it's a good idea to have a chappy in their school, then we're in serious trouble.