Private Schools - Why tendency towards religiosity?

[DanielV]

Hi All,

I've often been baffled by why it is that so many private, elite schools in Australia are also religiously-affiliated.

Just a few that come to mind in Victoria include Xavier College in Kew (Roman Catholic, Jesuit), Genazzano FCJ (Roman Catholic), Methodist Ladies College (Methodist), Carey Baptist (Baptist), etc.

I would have thought the following logic would apply:

IF Parents possess wealth THEN

Parents education => Australian average

Therefore

Parents are more likely to be skeptical, as skepticism is a valuable trait in analyzing and interrogating the reality that they have shaped around them in order to become successful and wealthy!

END IF

In summary, is it not strange that some of the most privleged children are sent to schools where there at least a component of non-scientific theology or creation mythology?

I'm not suggesting that these schools teach anti-science or encourage literalist interpretations of their particular religious text - I actually don't know how religion is taught at these schools, so I am seeking feedback.

Seeking any and all opinions on this state of affairs.

Cheers!

Daniel V

[SchizoDeluxe]

I don't know but if I had to guess, money probably has something to do with it. Would be interesting to know the answer though.

[Caio]

Speaking from personal experience, my Christian school education was fine, science was science and religion was religion, same as with English math or whatever. On one occasion though a relief teacher tried to smuggle god in with quantum physics, he and I ended up in a long debate about the subject, which he ended because he couldn’t hack being bested by a student :cool:. But it wasn’t a big thing, he wasn’t preaching or whatever, just a big misguided by the complexity of the issue and probably a bit of misinformation.

But on the whole my science teachers were great, and the classes were run strictly according to the syllabus.
This was in NSW western suburbs, just for reference.

[robertkd]

Well in continuance


else if

what about simple class snobbery?

From where I seat there seems to be a little bit of snobbery involved alright usually a lot, as well as private schools would in some cases have a slight edge in teacher/student participation, I'm sorry but perhaps driven form very noble values perhaps for the wrong reasons. Why are they predominately xian well the earliest ones I can remember being cat-holic was to continue the fine tradition of " conception, cradle, education, career, medical, death burial" I guess the coming and going package as it where.

As far as a business it likely helps to have tax breaks and the ability to attract " other " financing options and perhaps some business analysts could help with this preposition however I'm sure churches would get better breaks then some private non xian school business,.. :confused:

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Speaking from personal experience, my Christian school education was fine, science was science and religion was religion, same as with English math or whatever. On one occasion though a relief teacher tried to smuggle god in with quantum physics, he and I ended up in a long debate about the subject, which he ended because he couldn’t hack being bested by a student :cool:. But it wasn’t a big thing, he wasn’t preaching or whatever, just a big misguided by the complexity of the issue and probably a bit of misinformation.

But on the whole my science teachers were great, and the classes were run strictly according to the syllabus.
This was in NSW western suburbs, just for reference.Which Christian school in NSW did you go to?! In both schools I was in (NSW as well) religion was tought as if they were bloody history lessons!

[Caio]

Bede Polding…

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Maybe there's something different about them compared to other religious schools perhaps. :D

[Caio]

@ Croc
Maybe…they were strict, but nothing crazy. We had mass every so often, prayer once a day (sleep time) and then religion classes (extended sleep time). Where did you go?

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Castle Hill Adventist Primary School Pacific Hills Christian School

[Caio]

I didn’t know there was one in Castle Hill…oh well; I went to St. Matthews primary school for years 5 and 6, and cherrybrook public before that, and someplace in Ashfield before that, heheh. But while my experiences weren’t that bad, apparently at Arndell, an Anglican school, they are stricter…
So who “owns” the other private schools then?

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Well from what I understand about PHCS it was actually a corporation in disguise. I'm wondering maybe that's why they have ads near roundabouts at Dural for some reason.

Whenever I am a passenger in a car and I see them they can potentially make my hair spike up. Although not as Jewish and curly as the ones in the ads. ;)

Of course I try and keep my hair shorter than Protium's hair for reasons I will explain in another thread. :)

[Chrys Stevenson]

I was educated at a private Presbyterian and Methodist school, Clayfield College in Brisbane.

My parents were middle-class, but by no means 'posh'. We lived in an ordinary suburban house, not a McMansion.

I remember receiving very little religious education except for the usual hymns at assembly in the mornings.

We had a great science lab and although I don't recall being taught evolution, I think it was just the courses I took rather than any great omission.

My parents' were not in the least bit religious. In fact my father was an atheist. Their reason for sending me to a private school was so that I would learn to be a 'lady'. At private school I was taught speech and drama and deportment as optional extras. There was also a strong focus on dressing appropriately (hat, gloves and stockings in those days!), acting with 'decorum' (no sitting on desks, no walking down the street eating an apple, etc, standing for adults on the bus) and on academic excellence.

The private school also had superior facilities - science lab, art studio, music room, gym, library, language laboratory - to most state schools at that time.

A third reason was for me to grow up with people who were likely to be 'in business' and could therefore help with whatever future career I chose. Networking is a big thing amongst private school graduates.

I admit, I did get one job on the strength of having been to school with the interviewer, a well-known Brisbane news reader.

Apart from that, especially as a young woman, having a private school's name on my resume did give me an 'edge' when it came to getting interviews. The fact that I was intelligent, well educated, well spoken and knew how to write, dress, walk, sit and stand to impress also, I'm sure, made a difference.

Today, I'm still grateful for my private school education. I may not always behave 'decorously' butI have the advantage of knowing what is considered 'right' and 'wrong' and that has helped me to be comfortable in any company, no matter how 'posh'.

As for religious indoctrination, we recently took a 'poll' at our Sunshine Coast Atheists group. Every single person at the table was educated at a private school and every single one of us was an atheist. If their aim is indoctrination, they're failing badly.

[DanielV]

As for religious indoctrination, we recently took a 'poll' at our Sunshine Coast Atheists group. Every single person at the table was educated at a private school and every single one of us was an atheist. If their aim is indoctrination, they're failing badly.

Hi Kristy, thanks for your response, quite interesting point you made.

This thread is quickly bearing intellectual fruit.

[Praxis]

I send my son to a private school, Catholic college. I'm far from wealthy too, by the way!

I looked around very carefully for a school for him and it was the first time I also realised that nearly all the private schools are faith-based. This was disturbing for me.

Even the one private school I thought wasn't faith-based turns out to be run by the Uniting Church! It's very strange indeed not to have any private schools that have nothing to do with religion.

My son is doing fine at his school. Both my partner and I went through the Catholic school system so we are well equipped to answer any questions he has and actually the school isn't all that heavy on the religious side of things (so far, he's only in Year 7!).

However, I have recently learned that VCE students must take religion as a subject. It's compulsory. Now to me, this is plain wrong. I have a friend whose son is currently having to choose VCE subjects. Because he is forced to have religion as a subject, he is unable to do at least one other subject which he will need in order to pursue the course he wants to do. This just doesn't seem right.

I think when it comes to VCE, a subject like religion should be a choice by the student, not forced by the school. If my son does VCE, believe me I will be making a noise about this ;)

I also have no problem with him being at this school because I happen to know one of the senior science/maths teachers is an atheist (see you at the Convention, Jim!) so there's reason and logic lurking within the ranks :D

My son isn't in any danger of falling for religious nonsense so I'm not worried that he's at a faith school, nor do I feel a hypocrite for sending him there. The education and facilities side of things are much better for him than the local feral high school and if I have to work that much harder and beg a few family members for assistance to keep him in a private school, then that's just how it is.

Having said that, if there was a school around we could get him to without too much hassle that was totally faith-free (without being one of those hippy commune-type community schools where students do as they please) then I'd look seriously at sending him there. But there simply isn't that choice.

I'm going to hazard a guess and say that it's all tied up with money - both wealthy churches and government funding and tax exemptions.

I'm pretty confident my son will remain the questioning, naturally atheistic individual he is, despite hearing the silliness of Catholic dogma at school.

Cheers.

[wearestardust]

I've often been baffled by why it is that so many private, elite schools in Australia are also religiously-affiliated.


I think you may have the causul direction, and hence also your question, the wrong way around.

It is not so much that private schools tend to be religious, but that religions tend to feel the need to set up schools which, ipso facto, are private. The object is of course to promote the religious message.

Warning: comment in protective quote box because it something positive about historical events caused by religion.
It needs to be noted that some religious schools or educational movements started as charities with the aim being to provide education to those who could not get it. Christian Brothers spring to mind in particular. In this country at least, though, that need is no longer with us.

The question is, then: why do religions feel the need to operate such elite and inaccesible schools?

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

@Praxis: How is your son doing at school? How long has he been there though?

[Praxis]

@Praxis: How is your son doing at school? How long has he been there though?
He's doing okay, thanks for asking. He's in Year 7 and only has a few weeks left of this year. It took him about three terms to feel reasonably settled - it's quite a big school and he got very overwhelmed at the start of the year with the sheer amount of boys jostling around.

He has great support from the Special Needs Coordinator. She has an area - a whole room - outside her office where certain kids are allowed to go if they feel stressed or overwhelmed. He spends a lot of time in there, preferring to be quiet, but he's ventured out into the grounds a bit more recently.

He uses any prayer or mass times to just go inside his head (he has a long-running imaginary game he plays) or to just meditate and relax. I think he'll be fine :) (besides, he has me for a mum ;) )

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Well that is interesting. When I was at my first Christian school it took me 5 years and I still wasn't settled in. At the second one - a little less than two years and eventually got expelled.

Well they must have changed a little then because they weren't even close to as accommodating as they are to your son. At least he's doing OK though. :)

Having been on a forum focused on autism and Asperger's people as well as being the admin of a private forum myself, I have noticed a trend: it seems that people who are no longer at school now have been abused and misunderstood. Even now still if they are at school long enough they get fed up with it.

In America and Phillipines for example autism isn't welcome at schools. Particularly the religious schools if I had to guess.

In Australia when I was around at school it wasn't welcome either. Particularly the religious schools. One huge problem with Asperger's is that it is easy for people to misunderstand us.

Oh yeah and what is VCE anyway?

[Praxis]

In Australia when I was around at school it wasn't welcome either. Particularly the religious schools. One huge problem with Asperger's is that it is easy for people to misunderstand us.

Oh yeah and what is VCE anyway?
That special needs coord I mentioned has actually given a lecture on students with Asperger's in Qld earlier this year. Dr Tony Atwood himself invited her to speak. She asked several parents of AS kids to fill in quite a comprehensive questionnaire prior to writing her talk so she could incorporate our responses.

Also, at my son's primary school (also a Catholic school), his grade 5 teacher and aide studied AS students specifically and used my son as an example (names changed etc) - they studied him for a term (unobtrusively, he had no idea) and then wrote a paper on their observations, etc.

Honestly, I have not been able to fault his teachers and support staff as far as understanding the condition. They have gone out of their way to accommodate and understand and put in place safeguards. Perhaps we have just been terribly lucky. I can't imagine how hard it would be to have no one at your school understand the condition at all.

Also, when I say "settled", I mean he isn't terrified to enter the school any more and will even ride his bike there. He'll never be Mr Popular (nor does he want to be!) but as he said to me recently "I'm nowhere near as unpopular now as I was at the start of the year", which is kind of sad but kind of cool.

We go to great lengths to ensure he understands the condition he has but at the same time will not allow him to use it as an excuse for anything. We all understand about it and try to avoid trigger situations etc. but in no way does he consider himself "disabled" or "handicapped" (and neither do we, although my occasionally idiotic mother does :confused: ).

He knows he's different and has a different way of viewing the world and approaching things. And we all find that quite cool :)

VCE is the Victorian equivalent of HSC. It used to be HSC when I was in high school, then they changed it but I think there might be a national standard coming in - who knows what they'll call it?!

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

That special needs coord I mentioned has actually given a lecture on students with Asperger's in Qld earlier this year. Dr Tony Atwood himself invited her to speak. She asked several parents of AS kids to fill in quite a comprehensive questionnaire prior to writing her talk so she could incorporate our responses.Ah yes Doctor Tony Atwood I heard about him before.

Also, at my son's primary school (also a Catholic school), his grade 5 teacher and aide studied AS students specifically and used my son as an example (names changed etc) - they studied him for a term (unobtrusively, he had no idea) and then wrote a paper on their observations, etc.

Honestly, I have not been able to fault his teachers and support staff as far as understanding the condition. They have gone out of their way to accommodate and understand and put in place safeguards. Perhaps we have just been terribly lucky. I can't imagine how hard it would be to have no one at your school understand the condition at all.I think you have been terribly lucky as well! There's not one on any autism forum I have been on who have said anything that good. Then again they are mostly in America and all. A few are in Australia I suppose.
Also, when I say "settled", I mean he isn't terrified to enter the school any more and will even ride his bike there. He'll never be Mr Popular (nor does he want to be!) but as he said to me recently "I'm nowhere near as unpopular now as I was at the start of the year", which is kind of sad but kind of cool.I can relate to being terrified. Especially in large schools. I'm not sure how the "no where near as unpopular" statement can be sad though. Can you explain what you are talking about when you say it is sad but kind of cool?We go to great lengths to ensure he understands the condition he has but at the same time will not allow him to use it as an excuse for anything. We all understand about it and try to avoid trigger situations etc. but in no way does he consider himself "disabled" or "handicapped" (and neither do we, although my occasionally idiotic mother does :confused: ).I guess he must be thankful you are his mum. :) I know I would.
Oh and in regards to being considered "disabled" or "handicapped" I suppose it depends on how much it affects him. If there are just some minor issues here and there with mixing in I'm not sure it is really much of a "disability" as such. There is a lot more to fully fledged AS than some social issues here and there.
He knows he's different and has a different way of viewing the world and approaching things. And we all find that quite cool :)I guess I'm a bit of a mixed lot here. People who know me and who know I am autistic know that I experience things differently. Some bits they are OK with and some they are not.
VCE is the Victorian equivalent of HSC. It used to be HSC when I was in high school, then they changed it but I think there might be a national standard coming in - who knows what they'll call it?!Well they must be renaming things now because they can't figure out how else to show parents they are "improving" the education. Politicians will soon be saying "Well at least we've improved the name!" now a days. :D

Well I guess I can only conclude that things change really quickly when they want to. If only it was like that for getting rid of tax exemptions on church organizations and eliminating government funding for private schools and what not...

[Sal]

Originally in Australia, there was no government schooling, only schooling provided by the churches.

In fact, there was quite a resistance to public education in Australia at first.

Perhaps (along with the fact that the proddys and the mackerel-snappers have more money than several governments put together) one of the reasons is establishment with communities?

Australians love a sense of historical belonging (may have something to do with being a fairly isolated nation) and most anglos/europeans eat that sort of thing up. Generally speaking, of course.:D

[wolty]

Australians love a sense of historical belonging (may have something to do with being a fairly isolated nation) and most anglos/europeans eat that sort of thing up. Generally speaking, of course.:D


Yeah I got this as well. My dad went to the same angli school as me. Lots of history there.

I have much the same experience as Kristy (although I went to a boys school and not a girls:)). Not too much religion, good education, amazing resources, lots of contacts and so on. As long as the religion is not shoved down someones neck, it is a much better scenario.

I wonder if these schools in some ways pay lip service to religion and then teach critical thinking. At my school, I cannot imagine the science teacher being overruled by the re teacher.
Don't know much about the catlick schools. That seems much more insidious to me, but with an atheist as a parent (Praxis) you shouldn't have too many worries.

[Sal]

My short experience in a Catholic girls school was one of turning out good, dutiful Catholic wives for good, upstanding Catholic men.

There was not a lot of 'good' education going on there and certainly any sort of free-thinking was met with tonnes of detention!

I also had experience in government schools (only in QLD, from my recollection, although 'choir practice' time was the same for us who showed no talent or inclination for that activity) of 'craft times' when other students were being taught Scripture. Certainly no learning went on during these periods. From what I have read, it seems not much has changed in twenty or so years.

[Twizzle]

In summary, is it not strange that some of the most privleged children are sent to schools where there at least a component of non-scientific theology or creation mythology?

I'm not suggesting that these schools teach anti-science or encourage literalist interpretations of their particular religious text - I actually don't know how religion is taught at these schools, so I am seeking feedback.

Seeking any and all opinions on this state of affairs.




I went to a private baptist school, and yes my folks are fairly well off (think middle/upper-middle class, and yes they worked their way there, they weren't born into it). My folks were always big believers in the public system, but unfortunately we had a lot of problems with it. My brother was being bullied extensively (verbally, mentally, physically), and the public school basically refused to do anything about it. Instead they claimed that the probablem was with HIM, first saying he had ADD/ADHD. He didn't, but they still kept saying he should be on meds...keep in mind this is a friendly, shy and pretty well behaved kid. Then they started saying he had poorly developed social skills. Funny that, he was quite popular at our new private school....

With me, I was an advanced reader and writer, and they didn't have any kind of extension program available to such kids, and refused to provide me with higher level books to read in class. (note: I've never been a good speller, though!)

To give you an idea of what these schools teach, they obey the law. Evolution and the like are taught, but with a very creationist slant. I actually had to write a whole assignment analysing the evidence for evolution and the 'evidence' for creation in year 12. Any questioning of this is discouraged. I was sent to detention for refusing to bow my head for morning prayers, and was once called up after an RE class to talk about some of my comments (The teacher had asked me what my thoughts on god were, I said I didn't think he existed)

Aside from that, such private schools do offer a really good education, and a hell of a lot of the parents send them there just for that. It would be awesome so have some secular private schools, though.


PS: I apologise for any typos or weirdness in this post, I slicedmy finger open with a knife by acciodent earlier today and typing is a bit fiddly

[Sascha]

I've always been one to scorn private school snobbery and be proud of the fact that I went to public schools. You'd think, however, that you'd be relatively free from religion at a public school - it's almost a given. I was schooled in NSW from the beginning of primary school until late high school when I moved to WA, and in the NSW primary schools (I went to so many I've lost count) it was a constant battle to get out of Scripture.

When I was 6 and in year 1 I (obviously) wasn't informed enough to know what was going on. I remember clearly raising my 6 year old eyebrows at having to colour in Jesus and listen to a whole bunch of crap I'd never heard of before, seeing as my parents were so carefully neutral that it was never mentioned.

Throughout primary school it was the same story - once a week we had "Scripture" and once a week I battled to escape it. (seeing as I went to heaps of schools, they weren't used to it and it was new to have a kiddie being as strong minded as I was about the issue) As I was a little older I got so frustrated that they would only listen to me when Mum called or wrote a letter to back me up. Why couldn't I choose whether I wanted to suck up a bunch of crap or not?

Anyway, I'm wondering if this is still happening. I'm only 20 so it wasn't that long ago that I was experiencing this. Doesn't happen in WA as far as I'm aware. (Odd, WA schooling's pretty backwards in every other way.)

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

I went to two private schools before. I now wear my expulsions and suspesions as a badge of honor. :)

[Ford]

Why do many wealthy people choose religious schools? Well, maybe they are too busy to find time to teach their kids John Howard's 'Family Values', so like him, pass it on to those who claim to be the custodians of all goodness and light. Set and forget! :D

It may also be about 'discipline'. We all know and the media assures us we are right to assume all public schools are slack and then again it could be that they see Christian schools as giving their kids a set of useful contacts for future use and a feeling of superiority that allows them to be 'successful' (ruthless in business). :rolleyes:

[Ford]

Apologies for drifting off topic, but have we talked about the possible connection between Catholic insistance on celebacy and the fact that any wealth generated by a priest would more likely be retained by the church? Married clergy might rather pass it it on to their kids? :p

[Twizzle]

I've always been one to scorn private school snobbery and be proud of the fact that I went to public schools. You'd think, however, that you'd be relatively free from religion at a public school - it's almost a given. I was schooled in NSW from the beginning of primary school until late high school when I moved to WA, and in the NSW primary schools (I went to so many I've lost count) it was a constant battle to get out of Scripture.

When I was 6 and in year 1 I (obviously) wasn't informed enough to know what was going on. I remember clearly raising my 6 year old eyebrows at having to colour in Jesus and listen to a whole bunch of crap I'd never heard of before, seeing as my parents were so carefully neutral that it was never mentioned.

Throughout primary school it was the same story - once a week we had "Scripture" and once a week I battled to escape it. (seeing as I went to heaps of schools, they weren't used to it and it was new to have a kiddie being as strong minded as I was about the issue) As I was a little older I got so frustrated that they would only listen to me when Mum called or wrote a letter to back me up. Why couldn't I choose whether I wanted to suck up a bunch of crap or not?

Anyway, I'm wondering if this is still happening. I'm only 20 so it wasn't that long ago that I was experiencing this. Doesn't happen in WA as far as I'm aware. (Odd, WA schooling's pretty backwards in every other way.)


When I was in a public school we also had scripture once a week. I'm 20 as well.

[Sascha]

Well paint me green and call me Gumby - WA didn't escape it! :( My little brother and sister, when they used to live here in WA, never had to suffer through it, which is why I thought WA was lucky.

Out of curiosity, Twizzle, was it difficult to get out of?

[DanielV]

Wonderful replies from everyone, thanks for all respondees.

It appears there is an interesting mix of cultural, historical and pragmatic reasons why there are many religious private schools.

Hope everyone is enjoying their (hot!) weekend.

Daniel

[Loki]

Finland has no privare schools. School funding as a proportion of GDP is no greater than here. Finland tops most lists of literacy and numeracy. I think i read this in the Australian recently but can't track it down in their archives. There is a bit of talk of how private and particularly religious schools bias the system, take more than their share of resourses and subsequently push the average down. If anyone can find the reference I'd like to read it again.