Muslim-only housing in W.A?

[heartbomb]

About a month or two ago, I saw an article in the newspaper that shocked me.

http://www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?MenuID=77&ContentID=113035

Muslim-only housing in Rivervale, W.A?

I was stunned that this could even be a consideration. Surely this would be going against discrimination laws in accordance to housing, as non-Muslims would not be allowed to move in, obviously?

Anyway, I was just wondering if anyone knows what happened to that idea? Did it get scrapped in the end?

I really hope they don't get the go ahead for it.

[SchizoDeluxe]

Still in discussion as far as I know, when I first read that I just knew that was trouble in the making. Why do people feel they need to segragate themselves in groups like that?

[Serenity]

The reason they so it is because, being immigrants, they feel isolated and adrift in mainstream society, are often unable to speak English properly and cannot make meaningful relationships without people of the same ethnic backgrounds as themselves. They also see that the integration into society will lead to a "westernisation" of their children, an erosion of all of their core beliefs and culture. It's a threat to their lifestyles, their ideology and their values.

And, of course, they are right.

Isolated in that manner, they can continue to impose misogynistic and barbaric values upon their children, can continue to consider everyone outside of their commune as immoral and continue with the us vs them mentality. It works superbly well - look at the Amish communities in America.

[Fiery]

They also see that the integration into society will lead to a "westernisation" of their children, an erosion of all of their core beliefs and culture. It's a threat to their lifestyles, their ideology and their values.

Then why move to a western country?

Is it because ultimately, the Muslims seek to impose their values, ideology and lifestyle on the corrupt westerners?

[davo]

I'd say it was more the same reasons most people move that an 'agenda', either a better lifestyle with more opportunity, or escaping political or religious intolerance in or around their home country.

[eclectic]

I've been really interested in what other atheists thought of this issue. I'm against segregation, and I think religion is a bad thing, but I have some sympathy for this case. I can understand, for example, that it might be easier to teach new Muslim immigrants about Australian culture from a fellow Muslim perspective. You need someone who is fully acquainted with both cultures to really teach one to the other. I know that is only a small part of what they are trying to do, but I found that I wasn't ENTIRELY opposed to the suggestion.

[Serenity]

Then why move to a western country?

Is it because ultimately, the Muslims seek to impose their values, ideology and lifestyle on the corrupt westerners?

I doubt it. Muslims don't tend to be as into proselytising as other religious folk.

As Davo said, I think most move here for the vast improvement on lifestyle, on job opportunity, on educational opportunities (for their boys at least) and to escape war-torn regions.

[Etheist]

Eclectic - "...I think religion is a bad thing, but I have some sympathy for this case."Huh? Did I read that right? Aren't you contradicting yourself here?

How can you sympathize with something that you yourself said is bad?

That doesn't make sense to me.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't sympathy a form of support?

[heartbomb]

I've been really interested in what other atheists thought of this issue. I'm against segregation, and I think religion is a bad thing, but I have some sympathy for this case. I can understand, for example, that it might be easier to teach new Muslim immigrants about Australian culture from a fellow Muslim perspective. You need someone who is fully acquainted with both cultures to really teach one to the other. I know that is only a small part of what they are trying to do, but I found that I wasn't ENTIRELY opposed to the suggestion.

Actually, I'd disagree.

I guess I'm saying this from an entirely personal perspective though.

I grew up in a Muslim family, and the sect was the most pacifist, as I've already mentioned on the forums. So you'd think that segregating would be completely harmless, because they are surely going to be teaching the children about the culture of that country from their POV right?

Wrong.

Despite being more liberal than other sects of Islam, it still had undertones of 'Don't mix with the non-believers or you will turn into one of them, and will live a life of sin' - it was just less direct. These teachings from the mosque were reinforced by the parents who would make sure that their children only mixed with Muslim children.

My best friend is from a different sect of Islam, and despite my mother liking him for who he is and being particularly fond of him, she wanted him to convert to our sect. (Perhaps because she thought he would be a perfect future suitor for me, rofl!)

I guess I'm rambling on, but my point is, from my experience, the segregation isn't a good method of teaching those children about Australian culture. Culture is experienced, not taught...so to speak.

I sympathize with those children because my parents always felt a responsibility to ensure I only hang out with Muslims, not just Muslims, but Muslims from the sect we belong to...and I wanted to make friends who were different to me.

[Serenity]

You can have sympathy for the plight of immigrants to an alien land with alien customs where you are a marginalised group without agreeing with their religious beliefs.

I can completely understand why they want this: for the same reason that you, as an Australian, would likely end up falling in with other Australians if you were abroad. I certainly find myself more at ease around fellow Brits in Australia.

[heartbomb]

I would feel a bit of sympathy for them if that were the case, but I can't seem to believe that is their sole or main reason.

What offends me is that if I applied for housing there, being from a Muslim family, and I wanted my partner to move in with me, they would be very annoyed at me, not only that but they would never let me move in there. This would be followed by calling me an apostate, infidel, etc, insisting that I'm going to burn in hell for insulting Islam. Doesn't that kind of go against discrimination laws with regards to property and real estate? Any lawyers on here?

I understand that they field isolated and alone, but building a fort for their security isn't going to solve it.

[Serenity]

I'm not defending it. I can just see why they are doing it - to be comfortable in their environment.

If it's a private block then I assume it's up to them as to who they do or don't allow in. There are gated communities in Queensland, aren't there? Where the residents get to pick and choose who will be permitted to live there? Same deal really except they will be picking based on religion as opposed to skin colour and wage packet.

[Etheist]

Serenity - You can have sympathy for the plight of immigrants to an alien land with alien customs where you are a marginalised group without agreeing with their religious beliefs.Two questions then...

How does that work exactly?

If you sympathized with a criminal, would you agree that you are to some extent supporting them?

[Vonnie]

As far as I know, gated communities come under body corporate legislation which are, in turn, subject to anti-discrimination legislation. No-one could be shut out, for example, solely based on skin colour, or religion. There would have to be other reasons. Unemployment is considered a valid reason, because it affects ones ability to pay body corporate fees (which is why you usually have to provide income records when applying for body corporate membership, otherwise you'd be rejected as being unfinancial).

I would have no problem with a muslim living in my quiet neighbourhood street. ( For all I know, some of my neighbours may be muslims.) There are certainly Sikhs and Hindus. But I have a big problem with them segregating themselves to the exclusion of all others, being totally insular, and not making an effort at any assimilation. This sort of stuff breeds racism. (And what about the poor children!)

There are "muslim" areas, where mostly muslims live (just as there are areas where mostly Italians live, etc). But these areas are not exclusively muslim (or Italian, etc). They are a mix of various religions and nationalities. I would certainly protest against an area that was designated to be exclusively any religion or race, to the exclusion of all other religions or races.

Vonnie

[The Irreverent Mr Black]

Two questions then...

How does that work exactly?

If you sympathized with a criminal, would you agree that you are to some extent supporting them?

Etheist, there are cultural Muslims (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Islam), just like nominal Catholics or Anglicans.

[Etheist]

Thanks for that Blackie.

But I'm thinking that there's not a whole lotta them out there. ;)

[The Irreverent Mr Black]

Thanks for that Blackie.

But I'm thinking that there's not a whole lotta them (cultural Muslims) out there. ;)

Maybe more than you'd think, Etheist. Of course, you wouldn't see them loudly proclaiming themselves in public. The general Aussie attitude tends toward suspicion and prejudice.

I remember the horror of my grandparents when I made friends with the people down the road. Polish they were, and it was the height of the Cold War.

The things I learned: chess, conversational German, all those Continental delicacies! Ah, those were the days.

Mind you, I think I turned into a raving Leftie on my own steam.

[Etheist]

Okay, point taken. And these are to my understanding people who are non-believers.

But the question still remains...

How can a person who objects to religion have sympathy for the plight of immigrants to an alien land (with alien customs and where they are a marginalised group) without agreeing with their religious beliefs?

As I said before, isn't sympathy a form of support?

[His Noodly Appendage]

I don't think sympathy and support are the same at all. And agreeing with someone's beliefs is even further afield.

Sympathy is only a sliver off course from compassion, after all. In this context it pretty much equates to "I see where you're coming from, and your attitude is reasonable from those premises". It doesn't mean the premises are reasonable in the slightest.

I can have sympathy for pro-lifers. They see embryos as ickle tiny babies, and abortion as hideous murder. I get it. In their shoes, I would feel the same moral outrage. I can feel their anger and their pain, and I can see perfectly well how it stems from their outlook. It's utterly reasonable, if you start with their premises.

And I can have compassion for rapists and murderers. I don't condone what they do in the slightest, but needless suffering makes me sad, no matter who it happens to.

So, imagine yourself in the shoes of someone who has been brought up to believe that a given out-group is untrustworthy and a corrupting influence, and then dumped in a society dominated by that group. Hell, imagine your average mainstream westerner (especially a christian), emigrating to a muslim theocracy. All these godless satan-people with their evil ways, getting their hooks into your children...

I can see it just fine. This is perfectly normal human behaviour. When your native culture is at risk of getting swamped, encyst into a ghetto. That's what people do.

Which is not to say it's a good idea, or that the culture in question is worth protecting. In this case, it isn't. But that doesn't mean you can't feel a twinge of their anxiety and urge to isolate themselves, if you walk a mile in their shoes.

[Duffy]

I can see it just fine. This is perfectly normal human behaviour. When your native culture is at risk of getting swamped, encyst into a ghetto. That's what people do.

Which is not to say it's a good idea, or that the culture in question is worth protecting. In this case, it isn't. But that doesn't mean you can't feel a twinge of their anxiety and urge to isolate themselves, if you walk a mile in their shoes.

This is probably the most rational take on the issue. It explains why it happens even though it shouldn't and it is doesn't help in long run. I for one know plenty of Aussies that make no effort at all to understand the problems of our immigrants and refugees. And that bigotry is part of the problem. Obviously in the case of the Greek and Italians that came in the 50s, time has broken down the barriers and the preceding generations are as Aussie as anyone.

*deep breath* But, even though I can see why I still don't think it is the best choice to make. Intergration will not happen as long as these enclaves exist and children are seperated by religious schools. Australia's future replies on the children breaking down the barriers of their cultures. Muslim, christian, atheist, whatever, children mixing together will do more for intergration than anything an adult or government can think of. It has been proven with the European immigrants and it would be proven with others if given the opportunity.

[Serenity]

What distresses me the most about this possible scenario is the girls. In an ordinary Australian school they would be shown that, while misogyny certainly ain't dead, there has been some progress made towards equality.

In the proposed ghetto, their lives will begin and end in servitude.

[Duffy]

What distresses me the most about this possible scenario is the girls. In an ordinary Australian school they would be shown that, while misogyny certainly ain't dead, there has been some progress made towards equality.

In the proposed ghetto, their lives will begin and end in servitude.

Exactly, how can they see an alternative if they remain seperated?

[His Noodly Appendage]

Though to be fair, the counter-argument runs that even though the best ideas may win in a fair environment, majority cultural trends represent can overwhelm children to the point of indoctrination, and that sheltering them from such is necessary to give them a chance at a neutral perspective (or indeed, at making the 'right' choice).

Easy to disagree with in this case, but think ferinstance of gender studies stuff, about the portrayal of women in our society. Leaving the memes to duke it out on their own produced what we already see today. Does that mean that the mainstream culture is 'best' by default, or that regulating the marketplace of ideas is better?

I do so dislike playing devil's advocate. I think I need a shower.

[Serenity]

Of course leaving the memes allowed us to reach this point in gender relations but the culture the memes existed in didn't advocate the murder of women to regain family honour, nor did it exist in isolation from all other ideas. A free marketplace of ideas was available and got people thinking. In the community that is proposed, there will almost definitely be a suppression of information, censorship and skewing of information to serve their own agendas.

I don't like it but I don't suppose it's really any different than the Amish communities or Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons who all grow up within that religion, make friends within that religion and never venture far from it. As long as they aren't imposing their beliefs on me and mine and aren't threatening my freedom, people should be allowed to believe what they want and live wherever they want.

[Duffy]

Of course leaving the memes allowed us to reach this point in gender relations but the culture the memes existed in didn't advocate the murder of women to regain family honour, nor did it exist in isolation from all other ideas. A free marketplace of ideas was available and got people thinking. In the community that is proposed, there will almost definitely be a suppression of information, censorship and skewing of information to serve their own agendas.

I don't like it but I don't suppose it's really any different than the Amish communities or Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons who all grow up within that religion, make friends within that religion and never venture far from it. As long as they aren't imposing their beliefs on me and mine and aren't threatening my freedom, people should be allowed to believe what they want and live wherever they want.

I'm with you Serenity and I guess thats where 'freedom of choice' gets confusing to some. You can only make choices if you are given options. These poor girls are oppressed, I don't subcribe to any arguement that says they are choosing this life. Choosing an alternative can be, condemnation, estrangement from family and even death. So where is the choice? Expose them to a life similiar to those enjoyed by the majority of Australians and if they still freely choose to follow the strict laws of their religion then so be it.

[eclectic]

Huh? Did I read that right? Aren't you contradicting yourself here?

How can you sympathize with something that you yourself said is bad?

That doesn't make sense to me.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't sympathy a form of support?

See responses from heartbomb & serenity.

Also I didn't make a blanket statement, but a more complex one. I said that I am against segregation, but I can still have an emotive understanding, (which I termed 'sympathy') with some of the reasoning behind the idea. As I already said, however, I think the part I 'sympathised' with is only a small part of the agenda behind the plan and I am therefore against the idea as a whole.

For the record one of our good friends is a cultural Muslim - although he has now spent many years in the West so he is less so - who is an atheist.

[Etheist]

Empathy perhaps?

Wikipeida:

Empathy is the 'capacity' to share and understand another's 'state of mind' or emotion. It is often characterized as the ability to "put oneself into another's shoes", or in some way experience the outlook or emotions of another being within oneself. Empathy does not necessarily imply compassion, or empathic concern because this capacity can be present in context of compassionate or cruel behavior.

Sympathy is a social affinity in which one person stands with another person, closely understanding his or her feelings. The word derives from the Greek συμπάθεια (sympatheia)[1], from συν (syn) "together" + πάθος (pathos), in this case "suffering" (from πάσχω - pascho, "to be affected by, to suffer").

I understand where you're coming from, I just need to clarify my understanding of the word sympathy so that I can send out the right message when communicating to others.

[Duffy]

Empathy perhaps?

Wikipeida:

Empathy is the 'capacity' to share and understand another's 'state of mind' or emotion. It is often characterized as the ability to "put oneself into another's shoes", or in some way experience the outlook or emotions of another being within oneself. Empathy does not necessarily imply compassion, or empathic concern because this capacity can be present in context of compassionate or cruel behavior.

Sympathy is a social affinity in which one person stands with another person, closely understanding his or her feelings. The word derives from the Greek συμπάθεια (sympatheia)[1], from συν (syn) "together" + πάθος (pathos), in this case "suffering" (from πάσχω - pascho, "to be affected by, to suffer").

I understand where you're coming from, I just need to clarify my understanding of the word sympathy so that I can send out the right message when communicating to others.

It is the burden of the written word isn't it? Without expression and infliction at times it can be difficult work to get a message across. But we perservere;)

[Godless Ray]

I see this issue as a begining along the lines of "Hey guys..I have a great idea, lets open a faith based school!!!!" :D

It's going to end in tears. We should not help make this idea a precident.

Godless Ray

[Serenity]

... there are faith based schools.

[Godless Ray]

there are faith based schools

Yes I know. Godless will now rest his case.


Godless Ray