Are scientists to blame for the rise of intelligent design?

[Duffy]

Are scientists to blame for the rise of intelligent design?

This question is raised in the doc "Flock of Dodos".

It raises the question of scientists failing to 'sell' the facts of evolution to the general public. That is in contast to the shiney PR driven presentation of intelligent design.

Are scientists good communicators? Richard Dawkins is for certain, but as for the wider scientific community???
Could it be that scientists involve themselves with facts and care little for the promotion. I wonder if a more user-friendly science becomes the easier it will be for the average Joe (me included) to carry the batton for the evolutionary debate. I know there would be cries of 'don't need to dumb down science' but, for example, the scientific community needs the support of the general public when it comes to understanding the need for funding research. Would it help?

Can the scientists be blamed for not making evolution more user friendly? Not sure. I wonder if anyone has an opinion on this.

[davo]

Well, good one duffy i have to think on that for a bit ...
In the meantime, i am optimistic that the internet will break down a lot of the barriers over time, most of the 'youth' sites seem decidedly atheist, eg digg.com in outlook, and as they say, no army can stop an idea that's time has come ...
But i have to ponder your post a bit to do it justice ...

[SchizoDeluxe]

No I would blame religious groups for being too pushy in shoving their opinions down our throats, scientists do the hard yards and let the results speak for themselves, if people are too stupid or lazy to grasp intelligence and facts, it's their loss.

[The Irreverent Mr Black]

No I would blame religious groups for being too pushy in shoving their opinions down our throats, scientists do the hard yards and let the results speak for themselves, if people are too stupid or lazy to grasp intelligence and facts, it's their loss.

Not quite lazy... wasn't there a concerted push from Hovind, Ham et al, or similar critters, to put a bit of camouflage on creationism, in the hope of sneaking it into schools?

I seem to recall huge laughter on Pharyngula or somewhere similar when it was revealed that a bulk-replace in the text, while changing creation terms into their ID counterparts, had gone risibly haywire.

[SchizoDeluxe]

Not quite lazy... wasn't there a concerted push from Hovind, Ham et al, or similar critters, to put a bit of camouflage on creationism, in the hope of sneaking it into schools?

I seem to recall huge laughter on Pharyngula or somewhere similar when it was revealed that a bulk-replace in the text, while changing creation terms into their ID counterparts, had gone risibly haywire.

Several that I can recall actually, a lot of it politically motivated I would say, using loopholes in laws to get their way. As I said, it's just them being pushy, not the fault of scientists.

[Serenity]

In a roundabout way, yes, scientists are to blame.

It's not because they are poor communicators, though, it's because theism is instilled early, hard to break out of and relies on "faith". To counter the threat that evolution poses to the faith based teachings, they co-opt scientific language (because they know that science is valid, that scientific terminology will lend credibility) and came up with "Intelligent Design".

I think Intelligent Design was a pseudo-science counter to the scientific theory of evolution, an attempt to place the theories on the same playing field. Creationism consisted of only waving a certain book around, after all. Not enough for the scientifically aware society that is beginning to emerge.

[Darwinsbulldog]

Priests/"holymen"/pastors/imams etc get hold of children a long time before they can reason, and along time before any educator or scientist can present the facts.
Certainly, more money should be spent on science education, but many states/countries subsidize religion to a larger degree than they do science.

[davo]

No, after thinking about it, religion is to blame.
It creates a suspension of reason, that once established, is like shaking a world view to replace, and generally children are told day one about god etc, and get to school later.

I remember at school having mass arguments with one kid as he told me Santa didn't exist .. shattered me :(

[SchizoDeluxe]

No, after thinking about it, religion is to blame.
It creates a suspension of reason, that once established, is like shaking a world view to replace, and generally children are told day one about god etc, and get to school later.

I remember at school having mass arguments with one kid as he told me Santa didn't exist .. shattered me :(

Santa doesn't exist? Noooooooooooooo :eek:

[davo]

I'm still not talking to him .. of course santa exists .. who else puts the presents under the tree?!!???!!

[Evil Doer]

Blaming scientists for the rise of ID is like blaming police for the rise in vehicle accidents.

[Duffy]

No I would blame religious groups for being too pushy in shoving their opinions down our throats,

Funny thing, is the more I think about it, the more questions arise. The god squad have stepped onto the evolutionary playing field with ID. Is it time for true evolutionists to move into the domain of public opinion? Richard Dawkins is an excellent ambassador for Darwinism and his God Delusion a breakthrough because of it is user friendly and therefore has a more general appeal outside of science enthusiaists. He is not alone but he is still a ground breaker, imagine if his documentries could get out of SBS and History channels and be shown primetime on commercial channels.

The UK bus campaign is a brilliant start to pique interest and rally support for the atheist alternative. The Darwin Exhibit and celebrations for his birthday is another way. Perhaps the fault is with the media? I can only imagine if the atheists had a spokesperson with public appeal, think um, say Jamie Oliver(not everyones taste, I know, but examples are difficult) they may give us more air time. I understand it all sounds very 'low brow' but I am thinking of it as fighting fire with fire. I am thinking of it encouraging role models for free thinking.

Disclaimer: I concede this line of thought is in its infancy and would like different opinions if anyone else would like to indulge.

[Godless Ray]

I don't know if any of you ever read "The devil in Dover" but it covers the famious ID trial. What was interesting was how little the proponents of ID had thought about their very own invention. Nobody amongst them had thought it through beyond 2 minutes.

Evolution was accidently made complicated in past decades and there are even doctors that don't fully understand it. Though, people like Dawkins have managed to partly dumb it down enough for the layman. What it needs is to be the very first concept taught in high school science classes.


Godless Ray

[M0381U5]

Blaming scientists for the rise of ID is like blaming police for the rise in vehicle accidents.

I would like to see a list of these kind of lines....
Blaming scientists for the rise of ID is like blaming X for the rise in Y

Im nor witty enough to make any up. but im sure there could be some funny ones.

I was thinking....
Blaming scientists for the rise of ID is like blaming god for the rise of sin.
(tongue in cheek) like i said im not very witty.:p

[Buddhish]

Interesting idea Duffy and well worth the thought.

For many years science in schools was about the periodic table of elements and stuff - at least now, there are lots of fun science shows on TV for kids, and it's starting to be delivered in a more interesting manner. The problem I see now is that the delivery of fun and upbeat science is completely separated from "how we learned this" and "what this shows us" type stuff. You can find many great experiments on TV aimed at kids, but not much in terms of why this is useful in the real world.

I must admit that I have no science background, so am a classic example of the kind of person that needs science 'made simple'. Dawkin's God Del. was great to read as it was accessable, and very thorough in countering the arguments so often raised. I am now waiting to get my copy of Origin of the Species, which I gather is also a simple read. In saying this, I have a tertiary education - I know of others who would find DAwkins remarkably hard going.

But ultimately, until there are enjoyable, readable science "narratives" for kids, it will be hard to get the word out. Bibles for children abound, not much in the way of readable and entertaining science stuff. Having said that - Stephen Hawking and his daughter have made a great start with "George's secret key to the universe". My son learned about black holes at the same time I did in reading this to him.... and he remembers it too because it was fun and critical to the narrative story.

ahem... someone else might like soap box for a while....:o

[Evil Doer]

I would like to see a list of these kind of lines....
Blaming scientists for the rise of ID is like blaming X for the rise in Y

Im nor witty enough to make any up. but im sure there could be some funny ones.

I was thinking....
Blaming scientists for the rise of ID is like blaming god for the rise of sin.
(tongue in cheek) like i said im not very witty.:p

Meh... I think yours is better suited for this forum than mine.

Here's an attempt at a list:

Blaming scientists for the rise of ID is like:

1 ) blaming children for the rise of paedophile priests (... a low brow low blow... need to do better than that)

2 ) blaming decriminalized abortion for the Victorian bushfires (too soon!)

3 ) blaming pirates for the rise in global temperatures (Ramen)

4 ) blaming George Orwell for the rise in reality television (sorry, but if you watch reality television regularly, you're not an atheist)

[Evil Doer]

Interesting idea Duffy and well worth the thought.

For many years science in schools was about the periodic table of elements and stuff - at least now, there are lots of fun science shows on TV for kids, and it's starting to be delivered in a more interesting manner. The problem I see now is that the delivery of fun and upbeat science is completely separated from "how we learned this" and "what this shows us" type stuff. You can find many great experiments on TV aimed at kids, but not much in terms of why this is useful in the real world.

I must admit that I have no science background, so am a classic example of the kind of person that needs science 'made simple'. Dawkin's God Del. was great to read as it was accessable, and very thorough in countering the arguments so often raised. I am now waiting to get my copy of Origin of the Species, which I gather is also a simple read. In saying this, I have a tertiary education - I know of others who would find DAwkins remarkably hard going.

But ultimately, until there are enjoyable, readable science "narratives" for kids, it will be hard to get the word out. Bibles for children abound, not much in the way of readable and entertaining science stuff. Having said that - Stephen Hawking and his daughter have made a great start with "George's secret key to the universe". My son learned about black holes at the same time I did in reading this to him.... and he remembers it too because it was fun and critical to the narrative story.

ahem... someone else might like soap box for a while....:o

Terry Pratchett's Discworld related books are fantastic.

Even more fantastic are his "Science of Discworld" series. I hear the third one is about evolution...

[Vonnie]

4 ) blaming George Orwell for the rise in reality television (sorry, but if you watch reality television regularly, you're not an atheist)

Perhaps it would have been better if a smilie was used with that comment, to denote sarcasm?

I really quite enjoy some reality television - there's nothing wrong with watching a bit of entertainment, you know. Sure, we tend to watch mostly SBS, ABC and spend nearly every spare moment with our noses in books, or blogging, or posting on online forums, but there's nothing wrong with having a break from it, you know! It's called "balance". If everything in our lives was limited to the "high brow", we'd be as boring as all f*ck. :p

Vonnie

[Evil Doer]

Perhaps it would have been better if a smilie was used with that comment, to denote sarcasm?

I really quite enjoy some reality television - there's nothing wrong with watching a bit of entertainment, you know. Sure, we tend to watch mostly SBS, ABC and spend nearly every spare moment with our noses in books, or blogging, or posting on online forums, but there's nothing wrong with having a break from it, you know! It's called "balance". If everything in our lives was limited to the "high brow", we'd be as boring as all f*ck. :p

Vonnie

Trust me, I know (and like) things more low brow than reality television. But the important thing is that it's not reality television :D

Yes, I should use smilies more often... but either way, as long as you don't watch reality television religiously...

[Duffy]

blaming George Orwell for the rise in reality television (sorry, but if you watch reality television regularly, you're not an atheist)

Riddle: What do you call an atheist watching reality TV?

Answer: An atheist watching reality TV.

Ok not funny, but is this another stereotype?

[davo]

It's not the mindless stuff thats dangerous on telly, it's the stuff that's presented as fact ...

[Vonnie]

There's actually some pretty good commercial reality TV, AFAIC. RPA, Animal Hospital, Border Security, Find My Family. etc. I actually try not to miss any of these. (And I have a goal of getting through Find My Family, just once, without balling.)

Then there's stuff that's strictly for entertainment, like The Biggest Tosser, So You Think You Can Prance, etc. My kids and I just love sitting around watching these shows together. We all need some down time...

:D

Vonnie

[Podblack]

I even play on the Wii. :eek:

[M0381U5]

I actually play online games....games are never the same unless you are playing with a couple of dozen other people
I am a big fan of Battlefield2, very interactive and cooperative.
yeah yeah i know its just a FPS
i torrented an emulator for the PS1 and gota copy of kurushi
man thats an awesome game, like a 3D modern tetris, but way better.
that has taken up alot of my time.

I dont really like to sit and mindlessly absorb tv, unless its a good report or doco.
I personally cannot stand anything on a channel that has ads, even SBS gets to me now days.

[Vonnie]

I even play on the Wii. :eek:

Ha ha, us too! We get quite competitive on Wii Sports. I can't stand watching any kind of sport on TV (nope - not even the Olympics), but I've put a few dents in the wall with my Wii tennis racquet! I have to fight the bloody kids for it, though. They don't like to play me, 'cos I win all the time. The sore little losers! :)

Vonnie

[Vonnie]

I personally cannot stand anything on a channel that has ads, even SBS gets to me now days.

We record most shows on our HDD player for playback at a time of our choice (to fit in with our schedules), and use the skip function for ads. So, we don't even put up with the ads between shows on the ABC. :p

(I just finished watching an ad-free Dexter, which I recorded on Monday night. Glad to have that show back after the "silly season"! Can't wait until Weeds and Big Love return, then I'll be in "heaven".) :o

Vonnie

[davo]

So much fun http://www.tvbgone.com

[The Irreverent Mr Black]

So much fun http://www.tvbgone.com

Yay that device! Saw it on BoingBoing or similar, yonks ago. FSM knows I've wanted one for doctor's waiting rooms, etc.

[Protium]

ha ha.. I made one in the early days of TV in NZ when I was a lowly TV tech. I programmed all the "off" IR codes of local TV and VCR models into it.. It was a ripper. Used to go late night shopping and have the salesmen climbing the walls trying to figure why their gear was switching on and off... hours of fun..

more fun was lunch times in the "Square" of Christchurch where each day chief dickwad Ray Comfort would be spouting whilst we would be having fun with water pistols... Oh the joy :)

[The Irreverent Mr Black]

ha ha.. I made one in the early days of TV in NZ when I was a lowly TV tech. I programmed all the "off" IR codes of local TV and VCR models into it.. It was a ripper. Used to go late night shopping and have the salesmen climbing the walls trying to figure why their gear was switching on and off... hours of fun..
Heh.


more fun was lunch times in the "Square" of Christchurch where each day chief dickwad Ray Comfort would be spouting whilst we would be having fun with water pistols... Oh the joy :)

Back in the days when Caesar was Miss Universe and unicorns roamed the veldt, there was a fruitloop (an EnZedder by origin, I'm told) by the name of Duncan. He was the full set of Tupperware, what with the light pleated tartan skirt (not a dinkum kilt at all, and minus sporran), a white hardhat like meatworkers wear, a set of
HAND Lettered SIGNS w.h.i.c.h HAD All kinds OF Crazy PUNCtuation
a full set of Jack Chick hate comics, and a little Toa bullhorn, of fairly piss-poor wattage.

http://rynosseros.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/mock-mock.jpg
Take away the dog, and make the wibblehead a frail sixty-plus years of age, and you've got the picture. Oh well, add the skirt and hardhat.

This delightful git would set up shop in the middle of Canberra's Garema Place and surrounding areas, selling his Chicky Horrors and generally telling all the infidel scum they were damned.

Even with the mighty 6 D-cells of Toa at his command, the voice sounded somehow feeble, like a moth making its last desperate flutters against a lampshade before karking it.

Blackie had not yet succumbed to the wiles of the combination carpenter/nailbag who was Jeebus by this stage, and was a sort-of-Zen-Buddhist. (Oh all right, I was a mindgaming twunt with mystic pretensions!) Duncy-babe was rolling off his List Of The Damned: catholics, "feminist witches", Labor voters, atheists, muslims, pagans, buddhists... all bound for eternal damnation, as described by the feeble voice of Dunc.

I took exception. Having had the need to learn a little about the hawking licence (The Bearer Is Permitted To Be A Brilliant Physicist In A Motorised Chair) and associated laws in the ACT (another story involving an undercover Hare Krishna trying to flog deleted-stock records out front of HMAS Corrupt), I knew he wasn't legally able to flog his little booklets within 70 metres of an open shop door.

So I asked City Management (this was pre-self-government) whether I could sell religious tracts in Garema Place and City Walk. Nope.

"So you're discriminating in favour of the old guy with a bullhorn?", I asked.

They were prepared to leave him alone.

I got busy with what I had. A Chick tract or two, an Exacto knife, glue-stick... I came up with a classic parody: "Peter Was Deafened By The Bullhorn Of God".

It included a quotation from the Book Of Caledonians, in which Jehovah whinges about being omnipresent because it meant he was also positioned to look up Duncy's skirt, "...and, verily, the Old Testaments look mighty gnarly."

Armed with about fifty photocopies of the fun-tract, my bright red Devo-looking overalls, and a set of orange earmuffs originally issued as RAN anti-flash gear, I set up shop the next Saturday morning, six feet in front of Dunc and his bullhorn, with a placard reading "SHHHHHH!".

It was a success. Shopkeepers brought me cappucinos, people clapped and left money, Dunc looked crestfallen, and the usual snotty, effete little wannabe ferals from School Without Walls stopped, just to engage my attention and tell me very firmly that they weren't interested.

[Fiery]

That would have been PRICELESS fodder for youtube. Ohhhh to have caught that on tape. WELL DONE!!!!

[Protium]

I just snorted my bacon & eggs Mr Black!

[The Irreverent Mr Black]

I just snorted my bacon & eggs Mr Black!

Coffee's easier to get through the nose, don'cha think?

[davo]

I've seen that bloke from the pic in Melbourne, he gets quite agro when you tell him :

"Umm, you see, we have a problem. ... I AM jesus ...'

[The Irreverent Mr Black]

I've seen that bloke from the pic in Melbourne, he gets quite agro when you tell him :

"Umm, you see, we have a problem. ... I AM jesus ...'

Priceless. At the risk of getting martyred for the perfect clip, we need A-Tube.

[davo]

I could set one up as I was involved in creating an open source application .. but they are pretty intensive, both space, time setting up and maintaining, bandwidth CPU/Mem ..

http://blog.plumi.org/about

[Duffy]

Mr Black and Duncy, oh I can picture it! Beautiful stuff. Wished I'd been there!