My yearly fight with the school started today.

[boxsey]

Grrrr.
Asked the new gr3 teacher when RI was, how many kids would be opting out, and what was the plan for them....and she said, 1) Don't know yet, 2) only my kid so far, and 3) she would do up a work book for her, but she will have to be in the classroom, becasue she can't supervise her anywhere else. Oh, and my suggestion of letting my kid play some game on the computer with headphones on as an option - she won't do that, because then some of the other kids might get jealous, and start opting out of RI too.

Sigh.
She has NO knowledge of the legislation, or the substantive policy - and while i tried to enlighten her, in an empathetic way and acknowledging the difficulites it produces for teaching staff and supervision etc....she still was like, oh - the policy at this school is they stay in the room.

Not once did she say she would go read the legislation or the policy. Its substantive policy, which, according to Qld Ed, means its not a "if possible" but a "must be done this way".

Why is it that despite the policy, despite the damn LAW, i have to enlighten and demand compliance EVERY bloody year.

Whinge over. Carry on.

[Duffy]

Oh my sympathies. Now you'll probably get the 'oh one of those mums' stares when you enter the classroom. I spent the last 20 years getting them. Good Luck.

[Buddhish]

You have my sympathies Boxsey.

I've contacted the school my kids attend and received a waffly reply from the Principal (along the lines of we are interdenominational etc... "we have both kinds of music here... county and western"). Got a great response from my son's year teacher, but they are unable to leave the class because the RI teacher is not qualified (WELL HELLO!!! Should this be allowed?!), and so my son has to stay within the general vicinity. He of course wants to do what his friends are all doing - a situation he should not be in at a State school etc. But at least he is allowed to play on the computer with head phones on, and I was even offered a true RE class that would be written just for him - WOW. I was really impressed, but this is of course one teacher in a school, not a systematic approach. Still trying to balance my son's wishes against mine - hoping to lure him into the computer games though. I don't like manipulating a child, but then, I don't like my child being manipulated either....

Good luck at your school - let us know how you get on.

[boxsey]

Oh, Mr Black - I've been at this school now for 3 years (this is our fourth)....I started day one with the letter, and this was just a follow up.

But even before this week - I've had multiple "discussions" with the principal - they know my position, and I've made her more than aware of the legislation and policy. In fact, I went over her head once, and the director of ed. put a stop to the practice of allowing RI in Prep. So, you would think she would be on her best behaviour and watching out for any issues. But no...instead, i need to raise them every single friggin time, with every new teacher - and sometimes with teachers we've had before.

I'm on teh P&C - one of 2 members who are staying on in thier position this year. I will be raising at the next meeting, my concern that teachers are not aware of the policy or the law, and that this should be rectified asap.

Its just NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

[Vonnie]

Bloody hell, Boxsey. I can't believe that you have to go through this AGAIN! You've been there, done that. Can you take it higher, like make a formal complaint to the State Education Minister? I mean, it's simply not on - they are blatantly breaking the clearly-defined rules! F*cktards... :mad:

Vonnie

[SyVincent]

I'm a primary teacher myself , regularly relieving, and whenever I have to stop the program to let some poorly resourced and poorly prepared Xtian take over I almost cough up blood.
It is my experience that a qualified, registered teacher MUST be present in the room at all times as we alone have the duty of care.This might not be other teacher's experience, but it has been mine since I began teaching here last May. Maybe their blue cards (if they have them) allow them to have sole control but I havn't seen it yet.

The real problem I have besides the obvious aversion to the 'G' rated introduction to the supernatural (without the barbarism of Leviticus) is simply that many of these R.E people have poor questioning skills, sh*tty resources and often employ treats such as a lolly at the end for ensuring some standard of behaviour is maintained.

Oh, and the rolls here in Queensland crack me up. Almost every school I've walked into has each childs denomintation listed right after their name. I go and sit with the 'None's and play paper and pencil games while the whole fiasco unfolds....

[Serenity]

What's your next step, Boxsey?

[boxsey]

Syvincent....nice to know your in Qld! I totally understand that for the teacher, its tough - she has to stay in the classroom, and therefore, supervising my kid in another area is impossible. However, its law, and its the principals responsibility to ensure its carried out. The fact that its "school policy" to leave them in the class is irrelevent - school policy can't trump ed. qld's substantive policy and the law.

Sometimes i think it would be better to leave her in the classroom - others i don't.

I want to bring it up at the P&C meeting, or talk to the principal (or maybe the deputy - he's easier to talk to) but the fact is, i have a lot on my plate and am not sure if i can deal with this as well. Sigh. will keep you up to date!

[Buddhish]

Syvincent - great to read your perspective - and sadly confirms what I suspected. Mr 9 doesn't want to forgo RI classes as all his friends do them AND there are handouts (lollies etc). GRRRRR.

I was actually mortified to read that the RI 'teachers' are approved by churches and don't have to submit curriculum to the school to show the parents etc what will be taught. Can you imagine any other group trotting up to a school and saying "can I have 1/2 hour a week from your crowded curriculum to deliver my message... trust me... it's a nice message and the kids will get chocolate too!" and being allowed in?

BLAH. We've pretty well decided this time to impose our will on our kids and withdraw them from RI and see how it goes. As our son's teacher (a beacon of wisdom in the school it seems!) points out, you can always opt back in later if it doesn't work out. Miss 6 is very happy to be allowed to sit there and draw... I just hope she doesn't have to hear stories of all the babies being killed (except for the saved one of course), or animal sacrifice... she would have nightmares from that stuff.

[weez]

We went about it a bit differently with the grrrrlchild, who is now 23, uni degreed and well on her way to instructing a priest on how to conduct her upcoming wedding, much to his dismay.

The quality of supervision (esp anti-bullying) and execution of curricula in Sydney area public high schools was so poor that we decided to put her in a cathlick school which did the schooling jobs much better. We simply could not in good conscience have abandoned her to the miserable general environment of W Sydney pub high schools, where there would have been an opportunity for isolation from RI. The alternative to isolation was total immersion in education about ALL religions. We got the poor grrrlchild accustomed to the idea that the downside of the cathlick school was the faerie-tale hour, but the upside is that school will be a nicer and safer place to be.

Our subversion was to encourage her at every turn to learn about any and every philosophy and religion. Her elective research paper topics for RI were about absolutely any religion but xtianity. I bet her papers on Wicca and paganism charmed the powers that be. :)

Due to her broad knowledge, she was simply amused by indoctrination attempts; once when being called on her beliefs by one of the sisters, she giggled and educated the nun on how indoctrination and failure to admit belief was handled in Islam, instead of caving in. She'll give you chapter and verse about what espousers believe while steadfastly denying belief.

If you can't get isolation, shine a bright light on all iof it- the absurdity and hypocrisy is easily assimilated by kids.

[Kerri-Lee]

Weez, your post was music to my ears.

[weez]

No problem, Kerri-Lee. There's more than one way to skin the proverbial. :)

[Vonnie]

Nice story, Weez. But I am left wondering why, after all that, she's having a priest conduct her wedding? :confused:

Vonnie

[weez]

She's an ambivalent atheist, but because the boy is a cathlick and she lurrrrves him, she would like to please him- but not at the expense of a priest telling her what to say or do on or about her wedding day.

The most hilarious advice- nay, ORDER- from the priest so far was that the presently cohabitating pair MUST live separately for a month before the wedding. :D She nodded a lot when told this, then they left, laughed, and went on about their usual biz.

If Da Rev continues to lock horns with the grrrrlchild, I fully expect to hear that one certain priest has been found drowned in a baptismal font with a wedding planning guide rammed up his bum. I have a list of wedding celebrants and venues handy just in case this gets much uglier... :D

[boxsey]

Priest did mine too - for similar reasons - my retired catholic hubby thought it wasn't proper unless we did. I went along, but told him if at any point, i felt hypocritical or judged doing it...it was off. Unfortuantely, bar signing dh signing some thing to say he was having a mixed marriage (atheist marrying a retired catholic) I was left alone.

[weez]

I DO suspect that the grrlchild is rebelling a bit yet; her mum & I are not married as we both think it's beyond silly. So, our pleas for her to AT LEAST elope have been totally ignored. :D She's having a $50K wedding with a pearl-beaded gown that will stop clocks and convoy of Bentleys- and that's that.

The grrrlchild also will not acknowledge she is a boldface-italic-all caps feminist with a capital EFF, despite her absolute unwillingness to be subservient and obedient. Thinks feminists have to wear hemp skirts and must have hairy armpits. S'okay with me that she won't call herself the F word... as long as she acts like one. :D

hmm, headstrong, in-control atheist grrrrrl meets cathlick boy; how long do you think this will last? :rolleyes:

[weez]

She's 23, on >$65kpa and is headhunted a few times a month. Easy come, easy go. She can afford to amuse herself. Some amusements are more expensive than others. :D

[davo]

She's 23, on >$65kpa and is headhunted a few times a month. Easy come, easy go. She can afford to amuse herself. Some amusements are more expensive than others. :D

Still .. that's a heck of a lot of beer he's gonna miss out on ....

[weez]

Those two could bathe in beer every night of the week and never notice the budgetary dent. Dual incomes, no kids. They are hard pressed to find enough toys to dissipate their incomes, so they're presently considering buying rental investment properties at mortgagee auctions. The little capitalist vultures. :D

[Kieran]

50 000k wedding? What little patriots, doing their bit for the economy!

As someone who endured a (physically) painful public school education, I can totally understand why atheists might send their children to a religious school. I almost did it myself, but thankfully I found a public school that I could bear.

If I was in the situation again, I'd probably just drop out. If for some awful reason I end up having kids, I'm encouraging them to take charge of their own education.

[weez]

50 000k wedding? What little patriots, doing their bit for the economy!

You gotta look at the world through the eyes of Gen Y. They can get a new job whenever they like and if they're not treated like pure gold will just get on a plane and piss off for a few months until they feel like working again.

As someone who endured a (physically) painful public school education, I can totally understand why atheists might send their children to a religious school. I almost did it myself, but thankfully I found a public school that I could bear.

Your folks set you on task of finding a better school? Wow. :)

If I was in the situation again, I'd probably just drop out. If for some awful reason I end up having kids, I'm encouraging them to take charge of their own education.

Unfortunately, DOCS looks fairly dimly on excessive sprog autonomy. For some odd reason, they want you looking after your offspringery until they're in the 16-18 neighbourhood.

[monie74]

I would have thought the school could make some type of alternative arrangement for your child, there are lots of alternatives have the child attend another class for the duration of R.I and they can help read to younger students etc.
My 10 y.o. son has not gone to R.I for the last 3 years. His teacher sends him to the school library where he is able to read or do work quietly in the care of the librarian.
Every year I write a letter to the teacher asking them to "please excuse son from R.I. as he does not wish to attend."
We have other students at the school who don't do R.I because they are JW's & one or two Bretheren who do not attend these classes so it is not such a big problem.

[hmn]

Maybe a dumb question, but what is RI? Is it some sort of religious education? Is this in public school?

[davo]

Maybe a dumb question, but what is RI? Is it some sort of religious education? Is this in public school?

Yes Religious Instruction .. we used to refer to it as RE, religious education way back when ....

and yes in public schools

[davo]

Might also be by type of school, it was definitely RE where I went to school inner melb up to late 80's

[boxsey]

RI is how its referred to in the Qld Health policy/legislation, so i stick with that. In practice, the school calls it RE. However, I think its much more accurate to call it RI.

[davo]

RI is how its referred to in the Qld Health policy/legislation, so i stick with that. In practice, the school calls it RE. However, I think its much more accurate to call it RI.

I don't doubt it, however when I was doing HSC/VCE (first year of VCE coming in) our subject across the state was Religious Education: Systems of Meaning and Belief ..well that is the RE subject I took (it was compulsory for us to do RE for HSC/VCE, I chose one that looked at all religions)

[Vonnie]

My kids' school calls it RE. So I call it RE, when I write the yearly opt-out letters. :D

Vonnie

[Vonnie]

I don't doubt it, however when I was doing HSC/VCE (first year of VCE coming in) our subject across the state was Religious Education: Systems of Meaning and Belief ..well that is the RE subject I took (it was compulsory for us to do RE for HSC/VCE, I chose one that looked at all religions)

Ah, Mr Black - that's high school. I believe we are all mostly concerned about RE/RI being taught in primary schools. It is most certainly not anything like Systems of Meaning and Believe (i.e. comparative religion) - which is what is frequently taught in high schools. (From listening to my nieces and nephews - half of whom go to state high schools and half to private high schools - it's pretty much the same as when I was at high school: by that stage, they are old enough to not give a shit about RE/RI and it's a complete bludge period; and it doesn't seem to matter if it's Comparative Religion or Denominational Religion. At that age, they mostly just don't care.)

We are talking about RE/RI in primary schools. And it doesn't matter whether the school or the parents or whoever calls it RE or RI - it's the same difference. It's nothing short of indoctrination of primary school kids.

Vonnie

[davo]

yep, that was actually me .. I was just responding as someone asked if it was the same .. I can only speak from experience, and for me, all the way up it was called RE. Not saying it isn't RI and not saying it isn't indoctrination ;)

[Vonnie]

Ah, sorry Davo - it was you! (Ha ha - are you getting a complex? Of late, you've been reponded to when it wasn't you, and now I've responded to someone else and it was you!)

But, yeah. The different terms do confuse people. Put simply, in primary school, RE/RI (and SRE in one State - NSW?) is all the same thing, i.e. religious indoctrination. In high school - bludge period.

Vonnie

[Podblack]

Question - is there a particular group within the Atheist Foundation of Australia, kind of like a task-force, who can provide for parents the outlines of each state, the requirements, a form letter of sorts for this situation and maybe a contact number so this can reach other parents too? I just read another thread ( http://atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?p=9564&posted=1#post9564 ) which talked about another 'school-based issue' and whilst these forums are clearly useful... maybe there should be an investigation and a set page of 'strategies' for people...?

BTW (ignorant me...) is there a national conference, with speakers, et al? This sort of issue that boxsey is continually up against could be a very good talk / panel for people to get into!

[boxsey]

I continue to use RI in the face of the school calling it RE mostly because it show's I've read the policy, and they haven't ! They probably don't care.....but it makes me smirk on the inside.

I like the idea of a one stop shop to find policies state by state.

[davo]

So true boxsey! Stick with the legislation, it also does sound like the one stop shop for policies is a much needed one