An interesting quote from a believer

[DanielV]

Hi All,

Thought i'd share this interesting quote from Andrew Sullivan, a Roman Catholic who also happens to be gay.

The following is from an online discussion on religion between himself and Sam Harris.

I find it quite interesting:

"I have never doubted the existence of God. Never. My acceptance of God's existence--of a force beyond everything and the source of everything--goes so far back in my consciousness and memory that I can neither recall "finding" this faith nor being taught it. So when I am asked to justify this belief, as you reasonably do, I am at a loss. At this layer of faith, the first critical layer, the layer that includes all religious people and many who call themselves spiritual rather than religious, I can offer no justification as such. I have just never experienced the ordeal of consciousness without it. It is the air I have always breathed. I meet atheists and am as baffled at their lack of faith - at this level - as you are at my attachment to it. When people ask me how I came to choose this faith, I can only say it chose me. I have no ability to stop believing. Crises in my life - death of loved ones, diagnosis with a fatal illness, emotional loss - have never shaken this faith. In fact, they have all strengthened it. I know of no "proof" that could dissuade me of this, since no "proof" ever persuaded me of it."
- Andrew Sullivan

I am not sure how to respond to such a statement - it certainly seems that for some people, belief in god is as natural as loving your parents.

Andrew Sullivan also believes that there is more to the world that science reveals and that at some point there is "more".

Thats fairly common airy-fairy logic and we've all heard it before, perhaps some of us have even felt that before.

I'd like to say that i'm sure there are things that our intellect and perhaps even our methods will fail to penetrate, i'm just not sure how belief in a specific God follows from that.

[robertkd]

That to me is indoctrination form the very beginning and is from what I have read the exact way of thought for anyone growing up in a religious environment xiam, is lamb &ect.

For me I never had that mind set so it is the opposite I find it difficult to grasp the unquestioning acceptance of belief and the total rejection that "they" in no way could possibly wrong even given the lack of any compelling evidence and the over whelming evidence against their position.

[eclectic]

It certainly is an interesting quote. It certainly makes sense at that level, but I agree dvbern, I can't see how that can then lead to a belief in a specific god, in following any particular set of dogma. I left the dogma of my childhood xianity before I left the belief in "something greater"... so I can understand the feeling of faith, the surety that there is "something"... but for me it was easy to reject the particulars. I lived for a while with my own personal religion, dissatisfied with any invented by anyone else. But it seems that many people in the world are able to fit their personal idea of the "something" into an organised religion, ignoring its flaws.

[davo]

I think the apt term is 'mind-virus'

[wolty]

It is a compelling argument in the way that I would feel bad questioning how he views the world. However I just don't get the "blind faith" argument. I have never felt that way and never will. I prefer reality to fantasy.

I think they way he looks at the world is one big lie and I would have problems trusting someone like that. Mind Virus is right. I don't know whether to feel sad for him for his idiocy, annoyed that there are lots of people in world like that or pissed off with him for his view that is so far from reality that it is a complete delusion. I know it takes all sorts to make the world go round but wow some people live their lives in complete fantasy land.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Personally even though reality can be harsh I don't think resolving to a blind faith will really help in the long run. It may provide some short term relief however.

[robertkd]

I think that's the whole point, to someone indoctrinated into a belief system the concept of not thinking that way is nothing short on alien to them.

In deed I am part way into "The Virus of the Mind" by Richard Brodie and any indoctrination is a set of memes or even a collection of memetics (groups of groups of memes. There is no denying we (all do) have our own collection as well, these collectively modify our conscious and modify what/how we understand the world around us and how we think.

[kencooke]

I think the apt term is 'mind-virus'

Is falling in love the result of a "mind virus".

My point? Well I think that the human animal has evolved with certain characteristics, properties, instincts ... call them what you will. We have an inbuilt propensity to fall in love once or twice, maybe its actually falling in lust, but whatever, there is something going on within us that we cannot but help doing. Perhaps the propensity to "faith" is a similar inbuilt property over which most of us have no control. Maybe atheists have been born without the "religion gene", maybe our intellect overcomes the inbuilt propensity.

[SchizoDeluxe]

It's like the santa claus concept. Most if not all kids believe in santa but the difference between this and belief in a god is that kids eventually outgrow it and realize it's fake or learn that it's fake.

[wearestardust]

I think that's the whole point, to someone indoctrinated into a belief system the concept of not thinking that way is nothing short on alien to them.

(snipped) .

That quote (ie the quote in the OP) was me when I was believer. I recall saying very similar things.

It goes to the point that I have made elsewhere that xians, at least, and I suspect most theists, are resistent to logical argument - they've been inoculated against it by a combination of faith being the lense through which everything is seen, plus having a ready (though facile, irrational or both) answer to every challenge. That's why so often faith, especially strong faith, crumbles not from reason but from observation of hypocricy among believers.

[robertkd]

I also now people who "believe" and I have come to understand that that is simply how it is from their perspective.

I'm currently reading "Virus Of the Mind", it's an introductory to memes and how the control the thought process. They tend to control your conscious thinking to protect themselves to the extent that memes cause "you" to even adopt/accept irrational or illogical things.

[c2009]

Is falling in love the result of a "mind virus".

My point? Well I think that the human animal has evolved with certain characteristics, properties, instincts ... call them what you will. We have an inbuilt propensity to fall in love once or twice, maybe its actually falling in lust, but whatever, there is something going on within us that we cannot but help doing. Perhaps the propensity to "faith" is a similar inbuilt property over which most of us have no control. Maybe atheists have been born without the "religion gene", maybe our intellect overcomes the inbuilt propensity.

The experience of love is the stimulation of certain pleasure centres in the brain.

It's not inconceivable that religion is able to exploit the same thing.

Having come from the Christian belief recently, I know this is probably close to the truth. I was never as deeply into it as most do get. I could only suspend the disbelief so much, I guess, and eventually, that crashed - though the old way of thinking, the virus, if you will, is still trying to claw me back - but I have determined that it will not succeed.