Morality and sanity without a holy book

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Many theists have been complaining that atheists don't have morality because we don't follow the teachings of any religious books or believe in any gods. Here are some of the moralities I have naturally built-in without having to follow a religious book or believe in any gods.
I don't kill people for no reason I don't hurt people for no reason I try my hardest to be honest I am not a thief I am not a rapist I can coexist with people of various different sexual orientations - such as homosexuals and bisexuals etcetera I do not get even remotely offended by people who "swear" or "blaspheme" in any way - because they are just words. I respect peoples' rights to lead their own life and die whenever they want to - euthanasia rights I respect a woman's right to abort an unwanted pregnancy - since she is more significant and important than the baby at this stage I do not force my opinions upon everyone else intentionally I am a supporter of freedom and free speech I do not financially con people into traps for no reason and for my own personal gain I don't declare war on people over random objects or upon a stupid basis I do not unnecessarily discriminate people based on age or gender or race or sexual orientation If I get facts wrong and/or if I am wrong myself I am usually not afraid to admit it and accept it
Any other atheist wants to contribute to the list feel free to do so. I have posted this in Fantasy Island so that the believers here can comment on this too if they want. Atheists do not need to follow the teachings of a religious book for their morality as it comes from their intelligence.

[Caio]

Absolutely, in with you 1,000%, but I have had conversations with religious individuals who insist that we have learnt our morality from religion weather we know it or not. This aside many religious movements also say that being good isn’t enough, you also have to believe in god and donate charitably... don’t forget the donation ;).

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

My parents say that religion encourages and teaches peace and tranquility - and that is what Islam teaches peace and tranquility - and that people who do all these are "extremists" who actually are of no religion and trying to make Islam look bad.

[Caio]

It only encourages and teaches what you want it to teach, if you want love, care, forgiveness and peace, the Koran, the bible etc, you can find passages to support that. But if you want hate, intolerance, bigotry and oppression you can support that too. Indeed what people interpret in their holy book is more a reflection of who they are as a person than the religion itself.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

It only encourages and teaches what you want it to teach, if you want love, care, forgiveness and peace, the Koran, the bible etc, you can find passages to support that. But if you want hate, intolerance, bigotry and oppression you can support that too. Indeed what people interpret in their holy book is more a reflection of who they are as a person than the religion itself.I have come across various pricks on Youtube saying things like: The Old Testament is not relevant and is no longer meant to be followed. Jesus teaches love and compassion - not hatred and bigotry...But why is the Old Testament in modern bible now and have they read it?

[SchizoDeluxe]

Just take a young child, a toddler and even it knows the difference between right and wrong at a basic level. Morality is innate in us, it's not something we learn from a book. It's funny how believers insist we are too stupid to know this and must have gained this ability through supernatural gifts and yet animals in the wild display basic abilities to care for one another, all the while not killing each other. It's funny how humans are one of the only creatures in the world that kill it's own species for pleasure or gain.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Just take a young child, a toddler and even it knows the difference between right and wrong at a basic level. Morality is innate in us, it's not something we learn from a book. It's funny how believers insist we are too stupid to know this and must have gained this ability through supernatural gifts and yet animals in the wild display basic abilities to care for one another, all the while not killing each other. It's funny how humans are one of the only creatures in the world that kill it's own species for pleasure or gain.A significant problem the child faces now is the brainwashing and religious torture the parents put them through...
I have yet to see an animal believe in God - as some theists claim.

[Caio]

They obviously don’t know anything about Christianity or the bible.



The OT has a lot of inconsistencies and a lot of bad stuff in it, but it provides a backdrop to the whole religion (and they seem to forget that all the Jews have is the OT, and they aren’t going around doing the genocide, murder etc…). The OT has some very good parts like the Ecclesiastes. It also has those pesky ten commandments that they love to put in their courts.
Jesus said a lot of things. It was he who brought us the concept of hell being a place of damnation for all eternity as Christians know it today. He also said “repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Matthew 4:17), also “there shall be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom”(Matthew 16:28), or ‘For I am come to set a man at variance against his farther, ad the daughter against her mother…and a man’s foes shall be they of his own household’(Matthew 10:35,36), among others is “be a eunuch, if you want to win special approval of god’ and finally “be self righteous and put on holier than thou. Parade your perfection in such a way as to invite persecution.


They really should read the bible before talking about it, I could go on but I really cane b e bothered, maybe one day ill write up a big list with details if I’m really bored…

[Dave]

It's funny how believers insist we are too stupid to know this and must have gained this ability through supernatural gifts and yet animals in the wild display basic abilities to care for one another, all the while not killing each other. It's funny how humans are one of the only creatures in the world that kill it's own species for pleasure or gain.

Well us and maybe lions. Oh yeah and birds and oops chimps and well of course fish. Ok maybe even some reptiles and we wont get started on insects.:)

[SchizoDeluxe]

Well us and maybe lions. Oh yeah and birds and oops chimps and well of course fish. Ok maybe even some reptiles and we wont get started on insects.:)

Not for pleasure or gain though and as I said, while it has been known to happen, that's a rarity in the wild

[SchizoDeluxe]

See Flipper link a couple of posts upthread.

I saw it, again, a rare thing to happen, they don't even know why they do it but then, they also say dolphins are the only other species along with us who have sex for pleasure as well, sex and violence go hand in hand I suppose :D

[Caio]

Its ironic that religionists say that “morality” comes from them, after all religion is probably the biggest cause of violence in the world. And lets not forget the Abrahamic religions, each devoted to their just and merciful god, I guess it explains why they hate each other so much…

[Caio]

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[atheist_angel]

I know Xtians that say all animals have a relationship with g-d. They say the animals on Noah's ark obeyed the commands of Noah, and the animals in the garden of Eden could talk. I'm not quite sure when they think animals lost their ability to talk. After the flood...before the flood...I don't know. I should really have a nice long chat with one or two, to see what other nonsense they believe. It might be entertaining.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

I know Xtians that say all animals have a relationship with g-d. They say the animals on Noah's ark obeyed the commands of Noah, and the animals in the garden of Eden could talk. I'm not quite sure when they think animals lost their ability to talk. After the flood...before the flood...I don't know. I should really have a nice long chat with one or two, to see what other nonsense they believe. It might be entertaining.Well from the link that Mr Black had posted I would certainly say dolphins seem to have a divine relationship with God now ;)

[Unsacred Cow]

And Flipper (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/3323070/Killer-dolphins-baffle-marine-experts.html). That bastard.

They call him Flipper, Flipper, quick at igniting,
No one, you see, is more violent than he
And we know Flipper, lives in a world full of plunder,
Fighting there under, under the sea.

Everyone fears the brute of the sea
Ever so mean and rough is he
Attack he will do, when children appear
And how they cringe when he's near

They call him Flipper, Flipper, quick at igniting,
No one, you see, is more violent than he
And we know Flipper, lives in a world full of plunder,
Fighting there under, under the sea.

(Especially re-written for bad arse Flipper who rides a mean Sea-Horse and wears Leatherjackets)

[Unsacred Cow]

Not for pleasure or gain though and as I said, while it has been known to happen, that's a rarity in the wild

This may help to show that animals will certainly resort to violence for gain. (Underline is mine)

Synopsis: Synergy — otherwise unattainable combined effects that are produced by two or more elements, parts or individuals — has played a key causal role in the evolution of complexity, from the very origins of life to the evolution of humankind and complex societies. This theory — known as the “Synergism Hypothesis” — also applies to social behavior, including the use of collective violence for various purposes: predation, defense against predators, the acquisition of needed resources (food patches, nest-sites, water supplies, raw materials, territories, even mates), and the defense of these resources against other groups and species.

Full article here http://www.complexsystems.org/publications/warfare.html

[TÐöer]

5. I am not a rapist


How's that possible??? :eek:

You're an Atheist.

[TÐöer]

To add to the list

16. I have empathy.
17. I know that to hurt others is to have others do the same unto us.
18. I know what's moral/immoral, for ambiguous cases where religious text were not clear.

[TÐöer]

About the animal's behaving wildly, Well, those are isolated cases. Just like human's we do have a couple of sociopaths. The point is that they had no religion to begin with, to somehow know not to do numerous immoral acts, eg. eating their young, killing unnessarily. Though some may quote on animals that do, well the point is that there are some immoral acts that some animals do not do, without the guidance of religion.

As for the Killer dolphins, it seems to be isolated to a specific area, or group of dolphins. There could be tons of reasons for this. Pollution may have messed up their brains for example.

One thing is for sure, evolution/natural selection or not. If they kill all their young ones, you'd not have anymore of these, psycho dolphins in future.

[TÐöer]

To say, that Atheist cannot be moral without religion, is completely illogical to me. From what I can see, moral laws in religion are pretty primitive, and fall short of what we can use our brains to discover ourselves. So infact, to blindly follow religion is to fall into the infinite number of moral pit holes undescribed by religion.

For example, some religions may condemn certain sexual orientations (without basis of course). But the way their followers treat these people is it not immoral in itself?

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

To add to the list

16. I have empathy.
17. I know that to hurt others is to have others do the same unto us.
18. I know what's moral/immoral, for ambiguous cases where religious text were not clear.I say splended additions there old chap! Especially #17 and #18 there.

Unfortunately #16 somehow didn't seem to make it into me after taking this test (http://www.glennrowe.net/BaronCohen/EmpathyQuotient/EmpathyQuotient.aspx) and getting not more than 6 out of 80 - and beng told by my parents and psychologists that I am insensitive to other peoples' emotions...

[TÐöer]

lol, I got 34 out of 80... looks like I'm not as good as I thought I was. :P

I think the questions were not fair, there wasn't a neutral option, and some questions were not related, for example, associating the fact that "I plan my social interactions" as having no empathy, that's simply because I'm a perfectionist.

And many other questions, varies on a case to case basis, so I can't really answer them.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

lol, I got 34 out of 80... looks like I'm not as good as I thought I was. :P

I think the questions were not fair, there wasn't a neutral option, and some questions were not related, for example, associating the fact that "I plan my social interactions" as having no empathy, that's simply because I'm a perfectionist.

And many other questions, varies on a case to case basis, so I can't really answer them.I'm also quite surprised it is possible to get 80/80 given there are only 60 questions there.

However 34/80 is better than my score of 6/80 - I did the test again and scored 1/80 this time despite trying to "bump up" the points a little bit...

[TÐöer]

Lol.

Well, It's ok not to have have empathy. As long as we have sound reasoning to compensate.

Either way, we all have our own way, to cope, and be moral.

Actually empathy is a burden, imagine feeling hurt, when others are hurt. Free suffering for nothing.

I find it hard to answer the Questions because, at times, I slap myself(edit) when I feel other's anguish, but other times I feel they deserved it. Probably, my empathy has been dulled by the cruel, cruel world. :P

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

So long as we aren't overly sadistic - unlike most fundies are - we should be fine...