Alien life

[gruber]

I would like to know people opinions on this topic.

Do you believe there is, Don't believe? If so why.

[wolty]

The short answer is yes. I believe that, chances are there is life outside of our universe. What sort of life, who knows. The odds are very very good that there is some form of life ( single cell organisms ) somewhere else in the universe. The problem is that we will probably never know because everywhere else is just so far away.

My best friend has a bag packed next to his bed, just incase he is ever abducted by aliens. I respect him alot for that.

Of course the greatest movie of all time ( Star Wars ) was actually a documentary.

As is The Hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy. All completly true.

[Brother Nelson]

My best friend has a bag packed next to his bed, just incase he is ever abducted by aliens. I respect him alot for that.



Does he realise that he might not be abducted from his bedroom and he might not be able to go back for his toothbrush? I thought you had to be driving along a deserted country road at night time in Hicksville USA to be a target for alien abduction.

[wolty]

Does he realise that he might not be abducted from his bedroom and he might not be able to go back for his toothbrush? I thought you had to be driving along a deserted country road at night time in Hicksville USA to be a target for alien abduction.

Yeah but he is still prepared just in case:)

[Brother Nelson]

Yeah but he is still prepared just in case:)

Sounds like he is looking forward to it.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Well I guess believing in aliens is more plausible than believing in God ;)

[Brother Nelson]

amen brother

[Fearless]

"So if it's just us... seems like an awful waste of space." ... Ellie Arroway (Contact)

[Mister Pervert]

"So if it's just us... seems like an awful waste of space." ... Ellie Arroway (Contact)

The "Dedication", if I recall correctly, was to Carl Sagan :)

Just another reason to lie awake at night and dream about Jodi Foster...

[Fearless]

Nice, and I share your interest in Jodi :D

Oops, I cant say that, I'm getting married! :eek:... well window shopping is ok.

[Mister Pervert]

Nice, and I share your interest in Jodi :D

Oops, I cant say that, I'm getting married! :eek:... well window shopping is ok.

Confess to your significant other, Fearless! I did years ago and got "blessing, maritals" to sit down, have a ham sammich with Jodi, and ignore my own swirling eyeballs.

Love (to your SO) is like that :-O)

As for "window shopping" - Mrs Me has long said, "It doesn't matter where you get your appettite, as long as you eat at home!"

So, yeah! :-)

[Fearless]

Umm, guys... Wiki he say:


Dream on.

Bastage!

[Mister Pervert]

Umm, guys... Wiki he say:


Dream on.

Al Pacino has weird-ass funky fingernail fungus.

"The Devil wears Band-aids - in second-unit hand shots."

[gruber]

from Alien life to fingernails :confused:

anyway http://www.faqs.org/faqs/astronomy/faq/part8/section-4.html.

witht he amount of galaxies in the universe, statsically there should be life on other planets. In our own solar system, Saturn's moon, Titan has been found to have organic matter but its just to cold there for the processes of life creation to occur

[SchizoDeluxe]

Sure why not. I would be very surprised if there wasn't anything else out there. And who's to say we aren't the aliens? :D

[kencooke]

Let's up the ante. Who thinks that we will ever communicate with "intelligent" alien life. As opposed to the lesser question of does life of any sort exist out their.

[robertkd]

well an interesting topic, consideration that planet earth is not alone in bearing life is for me an absolute, the fact that we are here is an obvious indication of that very possibility.

However does that mean we will likely encounter et's, alas not likely it has a lot to do with the vastness of universe and the life span of our epoch.

I feel seti is a grand waste of time, think about it we transmit radio signals, an energy source that radiates out into space (a generalization of course) the possibility of detecting such a transmission against the background "noise" is it self a long shot. Add to that the vast time it takes to propagate across the expanse of space and we have a problem.

Lets say life dose occur in similar circumstances, assume a 3rd generation star so age 6 to 7 Billion years , and distance well anywhere between several million light years and well you get the picture.

assume further that under similar conditions this hyperthetcal race acheive our current level of understanding (given all the possible unlikelihood this would happen at the same time) so they to have radio broadcast, well sorry we would be extinct by time we receive them, and also they would be extinct by time they would receive anything.

:D

[wolty]

Eew the fingernail thing. I think we can safely say all libidos have been stabilised at Cold Weather Standard.
The new contraceptive. Wonder if the vatican will ban it?

[robertkd]

Let's up the ante. Who thinks that we will ever communicate with "intelligent" alien life. As opposed to the lesser question of does life of any sort exist out their.

I think the question needs to be restructured,...

do you think intelligent alien life would want to communicate with us?

[gruber]

I think the question needs to be restructured,...

do you think intelligent alien life would want to communicate with us?

I reckon that the aliens are watching us and when they see the homicidal, suicidal, insane species finially start colinising other planets, then they'll come in with their laser guns and wipe us out:D

Also with the bullshit theory that aliens will detect our radio signals many seem to be forgetting the fact that if there is a advanced life form out their they first have to have the radio transmissions technology discovered and in use.

[Fearless]

In the Independance Day movie they just plugged their laptop into the alien computers and uploaded a virus to destroy it... so we must have similar technology.

:rolleyes:

[robertkd]

I reckon that the aliens are watching us and when they see the homicidal, suicidal, insane species finially start colinising other planets, then they'll come in with their laser guns and wipe us out:D


doubly so if the xians/is lambs &etc lead the way spreading their mind virus to space, no self respecting alien species would tolerate that behavior,....


Also with the bullshit theory that aliens will detect our radio signals many seem to be forgetting the fact that if there is a advanced life form out their they first have to have the radio transmissions technology discovered and in use.

exactly my point, I would consider technologies along similar lines given encoding systems are based on mathematics however most of that is a moot point. The window of opportunity of such events occurring and the distance/time involved make it a desperate attempt.

I also suspect as we develop we will move away from conventional "radio" broadcast to a more "wired" or interconnected system thus reducing the window of opportunity for others to intercept transmissions, in other words we will likely go quite, after all a friendly invitation is also advertising our existence,... :D

the question also arises what would we do if we got a reply or decoded an alien transmission, likely krap ourselves, the easterners would call it a hoax, the wholly crunch of roam would implode and fundies would stick their heads up their arses pronouncing rapture was upon them

mmm maybe not such a bad thing ;)


In the Independance Day movie they just plugged their laptop into the alien computers and uploaded a virus to destroy it... so we must have similar technology.


laughable given the technology needed to bridge interstellar distances would make us appear like stone age man. besides as plot goes wait a couple of centuries and we will have likely breed ourselves out of existence, :mad:

[Robin]

Yes in terms of the universe. There must be something other than us.
But have we found it? I guess not. All the aliens stuff are scams to me.

Robin

[robertkd]

welcome Robin, ;)

I suspect your correct distance is one ternary, time is the other

[Seamus]

Do you believe there is, Don't believe? If so why.


Believe? No

Disbelieve? No.

Do I think it's likely? Yes.

Impossible there is no sentient life? No

Hope? No. Why Not? Because I have no evidence to assume such life would be benign. Makes far more sense to me that sentient beings advanced enough to come here would take one look at human beings and exterminate the species.I would.*

Overall:No evidence. I'm unable to accept such on faith,no matter how logical I think the idea may be.
.
Sherlock Holmes famous aphorism on deductive reasoning is true if and only if one has all the evidence.


*Did I mention I'm a little misanthropic? :cool:

[robertkd]

 what do you mean  :p

[DanielV]

Great question to get the mind thinking.

In short - I think the chances for simple, microscopic life are very good.

I base this mostly on the fact that amino acids seem to form quite easily (Miller-Urey Experiment), the fact that the majority of chemicals that make up life-as-we-know-it are common in the Universe (Carbon, Nitrogen, Oxygen, etc), the fact that Exoplanets in a Goldilocks Zone may be fairly common, etc.

I also think we are not alone because I dislike the idea that Earth and its life being a fluke - it smacks of special circumstances that are too reminiscent of the human-centric views of the earlier humans. It may still be correct, but i'd prefer to think we are not too special.

I do, however, think that the "Rare Earth" hypothesis has some merit - that perhaps complex life, the kind of "bags of water" that makes up macroscopic life on this planet, may be rare.

The reason I think this, is because:

- Exoplanets may be common, but not commonly within the Goldilocks-Zone where water can remain liquid. (Water appears to be an excellent solvent for chemical reactions, although other chemicals have been proposed, i.e. liquid methane on the planet Titan, for instance)

- Many Exoplanets may exist in parts of galaxies that are inheritently unstable - i.e. being too close to a galactic core may mean being pummelled every few million years by gamma rays, being in parts of galaxies that are metal poor may mean that rocky planets don't form readily, etc.

In short, I think that the fact that Earth had simple, microscopic life for most of its existence and only macroscopic, multi-cellular life late in the story suggests that the move from simple to complex isn't necessarily a quick or simple process.

Having said all this, theres a huge problem in all our reasoning on this topic - we have a sample size of 1 - the Earth.

[Fearless]

NOTHING is as close to being completely alien as Apple. It was a forgone conclusion.

Ok, you have me there.

For years growing up I had a bit of a fascination with the thought of aliens, I was bombarded with movies I guess that had them, but it was this common image of an alien that we have all seen, the drawn down grey face, big black eyes, long thin limbs etc I could never understand why so many people described the same phenomena near exactly.

I guess we all are fed with images of what jesus looked like, so we tend to adopt that as the accepted norm, but I think I can safely assume he could Have looked like anyone of that time... Assuming he existed of course.

I guess what I am saying it could be a mass delusion, if people can believe in god, they can believe in anything.

[DanielV]

Let's up the ante. Who thinks that we will ever communicate with "intelligent" alien life. As opposed to the lesser question of does life of any sort exist out their.

Hi Kencooke, another cool question!

I think the chances that SETI (Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence) will succeed depends entirely on two big IFS:

IF - life is not a fluke
AND
IF - intelligent life develops regularly

THEN

I think we are in luck.

The big factor working against us is that we don't have an easy way to survey the galaxy wholesale in a short period of time and we are reliant on the speed limit of light to transmit signals back and forth.

Seth Shostak of SETI recently point out that TV has only been broadcasting for less than a hundred years and so that means that the very faint signal has only reached the very local neighbourhood of star systems - we probably need a much larger sample size.

[DanielV]

Also with the bullshit theory that aliens will detect our radio signals many seem to be forgetting the fact that if there is a advanced life form out their they first have to have the radio transmissions technology discovered and in use.

Gruber, I don't think its too much of a stretch - assuming any intelligent species develops technology, they would eventually stumble upon electromagnetic radiation in its various wavelengths, visible light, ultra-violet, radio, x-rays, etc.

But you are right in your point that it does conceal a big leap of faith to assume that other intelligent life would be aware of and use the same detection tools as ourselves.

But even if radio astronomy isn't the "In" thing with extra-terrestrials, perhaps there are other means of communicating over vast distances, perhaps highly-developed aliens could manipulate the light from Pulsars, changing the pulse rate (Which should be very consistent). They could also manipulate nebulas of gas, affecting light from distant bright stars, like an intergalactic smoke signal.

[Seamus]

In the Independance Day movie they just plugged their laptop into the alien computers and uploaded a virus to destroy it... so we must have similar technology.

:rolleyes:

Thanks, I missed that in the movie ,which I've seen several times..It never occurred to me.

The French anthropologist Claude Levi-Strauss argues that our two part brain determines the way we see the world. IE as binary.

[_RAAF_Stupot]

I think it's extremely unlikely that life doesn't exist elsewhere in the universe, or the Milky Way for that matter. In my lifetime, extra-solar planets have gone from mere speculation, to almost an everyday discovery. With these & other discoveries we are finding it increasingly evident that the Sun & Earth may not be in any way special - it's the Copernican Principle at work!

However, it is another question indeed whether there is much, if any, intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. As far as we know, really intelligent life has evolved only once on this planet, so we have no real idea if it's a likely occurrence. I don't think it's inevitable that evolution inevitably leads to intelligent life - all I know is that evolution enables those organisms that have 'just-what-is-good-enough-to-survive' to have offspring. Perhaps in most circumstances, high intelligence is not relevant to survival, and our intelligence is just a by-product of something else that helped our ancestors to survive on the savannahs of E. Africa 2 million years ago.

What I am about to talk about next relies on many assumptions - your results will vary a lot given different assumptions!

Now if we assume that high intelligence is a common result of evolution, we have to ask ourselves "how likely is it that there is an alien civilization in existence at the same time as us?" Let's say a civilization will on average exist for 100 000 years. The Milky Way has been in existence for at least 10 billion years. If a new civilization springs into existence on average once every million years, then over the lifetime of the galaxy there will have been 10 000 individual civilizations - but usually, each civilization will be the only once in existence at any given time. The chance of two, let alone any more civilizations existing simultaneously would be quite low. If memory of probability serves me correctly, it's just a fraction under a 10 % chance that a second civilization will appear during the lifetime of the first civilization. (999 999/1 000 000)^100 000 = the chance of a civilization not appearing....

OK then. Let's assume that we do in fact have another intelligent alien civilization keeping us company here in the Milky Way! How far away are they likely to be? Well the Milky Way is about 100 000 light years in diameter, & we are about 60% towards one edge from the centre, so I would estimate that a second civilization would be, on average, about 30 000 light years away. I can't do the maths for this, but it feels about right. Now let's assume nobody has any faster-than-light technology. Clearly a coherent dialogue is unlikely, given that after just 3 transmissions, either we or our fellow civilization are likely to have become extinct!

The final nail in the coffin, to me at least, is "where is the evidence". An intelligent alien civilization could release a self-reproducing space probe. Say it travelled as fast as the Voyager probes (pretty slow) and after arriving at a solar system could gather up enough raw material to reproduce a single offspring in 100 000 years. If solar systems are on average 10 light years apart, then in only 10 million years there should be about 117 129 523 791 978 766 508 of these probes, that is 66 generations worth, assuming the probe takes 50 000 years to reach it's destination and then 100 000 years to reproduce!

So, where are they?

[Godless Ray]

A question I always wondered about was supposing that a similar to "us" life-form developed (for arguments sake) What would be the chances they would follow our chain of technological progress? I was thinking of life's accidental discoveries and also people (an example might be Australia's aboriginals) that could go thousands of years with not much need for technological improvements. There are so very many ducks to line up for the concept of SETI yielding a result, but evening have your ducks straight there still is so very many reasons that we still might not have success.

Godless Ray

[robertkd]

interesting preposition, and I tend to agree in general. The 100,000year life span for a civilization/species might be a generality.

perhaps if we look at the only example (and assume we are intelligent,.. ) I guess we have been going for maybe a couple of million years as a species maybe 100000 as a civilization, however it's only in the last say 300y that we have actually made unprecedented progress partly because we were prepared to move away form eons of misunderstanding, dogma and superstition :)

your observations in the number of "probable" occurrences may not stack up assuming the number of "earth like" planets might reduce the likely candidates, however I still consider the bigger issue is "window" of existence, universe ~13.5Bya, sun ~5.5Bya so forth, stars exist with many differing ages some newer some older, the exact "setbacks" that occurred for earth may or may not have equally positive outcomes on other worlds. So a difference for quasi similar development might well be separated by a billion years or or more now add that to the distances involved.

I don't doubt that life exists elsewhere, indeed I am as certain that the occurrence of life isn't unique to earth, it's just if intelligent life exists. For a moment consider that the meteorite strike some 65Bya caused the demise of the dinosaur and as such allowed mammals to thrive due to changed conditions, what if the meteorite missed earth, what if there was a second soon after??

Another aspect is if we assume we are an example of intelligent life, we seem to have arrived at an understanding of our universe in time to realise that we have nearly destroyed the earth and if that wasn't bad enough at the brink of collapsing the food chain, perhaps intelligence/understanding only lasts for a brief instant, don't blink folks ;)

[robertkd]

A question I always wondered about was supposing that a similar to "us" life-form developed (for arguments sake) What would be the chances they would follow our chain of technological progress? I was thinking of life's accidental discoveries and also people (an example might be Australia's aboriginals) that could go thousands of years with not much need for technological improvements. There are so very many ducks to line up for the concept of SETI yielding a result, but evening have your ducks straight there still is so very many reasons that we still might not have success.

Godless Ray

I think the underlying assumption is "intelligent" aligns with the fundamental understanding of atoms, physics and mathematics, we are also still assuming similar outcomes form evolution, there are a lot of variables and I don't believe we have the answers yet.

[gruber]

I was thinking if there are other intelligent life forms out there do we really want to be screaming out our position to them cause Something might hear us and that could be a very bad thing

[gruber]

@Gruber: there have been sci-fi stories before, about some of the problems that might occur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Serve_Man_%28The_Twilight_Zone%29) if we let our presence be known.

dont we just have to wait until the yanks plug their laptop in and everything will be all right

[robertkd]

dont we just have to wait until the yanks plug their laptop in and everything will be all right

it's not plugging their laptop in the worries me,... :p

incidentally I have made comment on "going silent" as a planet previously in this thread, advertising isn't always a good thing,...

[Seamus]

@ Gruber.

Thanks for the ink. "To Serve Man" was one of my favourite "Twilight Zone" episodes.


--I think it helped form my cynical view of any aliens which might visit us. IE they would either be appalled and exterminate humans as vermin,or use us as a food source.

[Godless Ray]

thinking about intelligent life only having a window, I wonder if anyone has thought about some kind of longer term technological monument ? Something that could say to a future civilization that we were here also once. Somekind of space light house of sorts.


Godless

[Fearless]

thinking about intelligent life only having a window, I wonder if anyone has thought about some kind of longer term technological monument ? Something that could say to a future civilization that we were here also once. Somekind of space light house of sorts.


Godless

Like this? (with a real flame of course ;))

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/9859/apesandstatue.jpg (http://img411.imageshack.us/i/apesandstatue.jpg/)

[gruber]

apparently the pyramids will outlast human civilisation so that will most likely be our legacy along with our cities (thats if they survive the nukes)

[Seamus]

apparently the pyramids will outlast human civilisation so that will most likely be our legacy along with our cities (thats if they survive the nukes)




According to recent documentary I saw,there will be no trace of our cities within about 1000 years or so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_After_People


The main reasons; wind and water erosion and reinforced concrete. The wind and water expose the steel in the concrete,it rusts and expands.The concrete disintegrates.

It seems that ineffably vulgar monstrosity, Mt Rushmore ,will last a VERY long time.


The ancients used concrete, but it was NOT reinforced.

Roman concrete (also called Opus caementicium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opus_caementicium)) was a material used in construction during the Roman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire). Roman concrete was based on a hydraulic-setting cement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_cement) with many material qualities similar to modern Portland cement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland_cement). By the middle of the first century AD, the material was used frequently as brick-faced concrete, although variations in aggregate allowed different arrangements of materials. Further innovative developments in the material, coined the Roman Concrete Revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_Revolution), contributed to structurally complicated forms, such as the Pantheon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheon,_Rome) dome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_concrete

[_RAAF_Stupot]

I was thinking if there are other intelligent life forms out there do we really want to be screaming out our position to them cause Something might hear us and that could be a very bad thing

Don't worry about it.

The chance that we (humanity) is at the same level of intellectual development as another alien civilzation is so vanishingly small that the more 'primitive' civilization wouldn't know what hit it.

A civilization with 1 million years of science behind it would make us and neolithics look like contemporaries.

[_RAAF_Stupot]

thinking about intelligent life only having a window, I wonder if anyone has thought about some kind of longer term technological monument ? Something that could say to a future civilization that we were here also once. Somekind of space light house of sorts.


Godless


Well I was kind of thinking that the self-reproducing space probes described in my post above would be serving this purpose.

What could they look like? How could we recognise them?

I'm not sure if you have read the novella based on the film 2001-A Space Odyssey? But in that, the monolith discovered on the moon was found to have to have very precise dimensions. In fact, the the edge dimensions (x, y & z) were found to be in the ratio of prime numbers.

[_RAAF_Stupot]

According to recent documentary I saw,there will be no trace of our cities within about 1000 years or so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_After_People


The main reasons; wind and water erosion and reinforced concrete. The wind and water expose the steel in the concrete,it rusts and expands.The concrete disintegrates.

It seems that ineffably vulgar monstrosity, Mt Rushmore ,will last a VERY long time.


The ancients used concrete, but it was NOT reinforced.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_concrete

If you wanted something to last you wouldn't put it on Earth. All the spacecraft that we have launched to leave the solar system will far outlast anything on Earth.

[c2009]

... Or one could put up a huge sign on the moon pointing at the Earth stating:

"Humans were there ->" :p

[gruber]

there could be intelligent alien life forms that know of humans existence but we could be like the unpopular kid who never gets chosen at a game at school

[Dave]

there could be intelligent alien life forms that know of humans existence but we could be like the unpopular kid who never gets chosen at a game at school

Or worse.!!! They may consider us the stuff they wipe from under their shoes like some sort of pond scum.:rolleyes:

[Dave]

We can't have this discussion without mentioning:-


The Drake equation states that:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/8/4/7/847914dec26cc45ac2957da0054683de.png where:
N is the number of civilizations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilization) in our galaxy in which communication might be possible; and
R* is the average rate of star (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star) formation per year in our galaxy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milky_Way)fp is the fraction of those stars that have planets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet)ne is the average number of planets that can potentially support life (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life) per star that has planetsfℓ is the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop life at some pointfi is the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop intelligent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence) lifefc is the fraction of civilizations that develop a technology that releases detectable signs of their existence into spaceL is the length of time such civilizations release detectable signals into space.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation#cite_note-1)

[robertkd]

... Or one could put up a huge sign on the moon pointing at the Earth stating:

"Humans were there ->" :p

well hasn't that already been done with the apollo lunar landings

[DanielV]

I don't think it's inevitable that evolution inevitably leads to intelligent life - all I know is that evolution enables those organisms that have 'just-what-is-good-enough-to-survive' to have offspring. Perhaps in most circumstances, high intelligence is not relevant to survival, and our intelligence is just a by-product of something else that helped our ancestors to survive on the savannahs of E. Africa 2 million years ago.

RAAF_Stupot - excellent point. I agree that it appears that evolution may not necessarily favour the emergence of intelligence.

[Seamus]

If you wanted something to last you wouldn't put it on Earth. All the spacecraft that we have launched to leave the solar system will far outlast anything on Earth.

Yes,it would seem so, for static artifacts,such as that stuff on the moon. However, for anything moving,nothing like the hundreds of thousands of years I had supposed. The odd thing, a few thousand years,but no more.That's no time at all in space. Satellites are apparently the most temporary things we have in space.

I was a bits shocked at a lot of things in that series. REALLY puts human beings into perspective.Viz; We are just another species on an insignificant planet on the edge of one galaxy. Our "specialness" seems to be only our greed and stupidity which allows us to hasten our own extinction by making our environment uninhabitable.

We WILL vanish without trace, perhaps sooner than we think;within hundreds rather than thousands of years.


HOWEVER,it was only a documentary,which like history,is essentially another form of myth making,not to be taken seriously in isolation.



So far,we have"spacecraft" only within the simplest ,most literal definition of the word. They are interplanetary rockets. My idea of a 'spacecraft" is interstellar. The programme's a claim was that nothing we have so far sent into space will last long enough to reach another solar system. .Forget about another galaxy.That's a pessimistic supposition. I don't know ,neither so far,does anyone else .It's only of mild interest to me: IE I'll be dead within 25-30 years. In the meantime,I don't have the science to understand at any meaningful level.

[robertkd]

Yes,it would seem so, for static artifacts,such as that stuff on the moon. However, for anything moving,nothing like the hundreds of thousands of years I had supposed. The odd thing, a few thousand years,but no more.That's no time at all in space. Satellites are apparently the most temporary things we have in space.

I was a bits shocked at a lot of things in that series. REALLY puts human beings into perspective.Viz; We are just another species on an insignificant planet on the edge of one galaxy. Our "specialness" seems to be only our greed and stupidity which allows us to hasten our own extinction by making our environment uninhabitable.

We WILL vanish without trace, perhaps sooner than we think;within hundreds rather than thousands of years.



HOWEVER,it was only a documentary,which like history,is essentially another form of myth making,not to be taken seriously in isolation.



So far,we have"spacecraft" only within the simplest ,most literal definition of the word. They are interplanetary rockets. My idea of a 'spacecraft" is interstellar. The programme's a claim was that nothing we have so far sent into space will last long enough to reach another solar system. .Forget about another galaxy.That's a pessimistic supposition. I don't know ,neither so far,does anyone else .It's only of mild interest to me: IE I'll be dead within 25-30 years. In the meantime,I don't have the science to understand at any meaningful level.


we'd be lucky to do manned missions to mars with current technology, and even then there really isn't much point.

gamma radiation will likely threaten the crews health during the mission

mission would likely take 12 to 24 months

what do you get, rock, maybe some ice "water", no atmosphere to speak of and anything from -100 to 0c surface temperature

As for anything resembling "star trek" forget it you're most likely correct we wont survive long enough!

but I guess you gotta start somewhere right,..

[atheist_angel]

Do you believe there is, Don't believe? If so why.Well, I don't know.
I've seen some estimate the age of the universe as 14billion yrs. I've seen other estimates that say, 10billion yrs. Since the estimated age of the earth is 4.5billion yrs., I wouldn't expect there to be much life out there. And no, I wouldn't consider us to be late bloomers, either.

I would expect the universe to be teeming with life one day. But, because they say the universe is expanding, I wouldn't expect much social contact between us and our extra-terrestrial cousins. I'd be surprised if we don't end up, over-populating ourselves to near-extinction soon.

[robertkd]

Well, I don't know.
I've seen some estimate the age of the universe as 14billion yrs. I've seen other estimates that say, 10billion yrs. Since the estimated age of the earth is 4.5billion yrs., I wouldn't expect there to be much life out there. And no, I wouldn't consider us to be late bloomers, either.


I'm not so sure, our sun is considered at least a second generation star and depending on which side of the fence it (the sun) is being considered (and most probable) a third generation star, so against the age of the universe we're new kids on the block ;)



I would expect the universe to be teeming with life one day. But, because they say the universe is expanding, I wouldn't expect much social contact between us and our extra-terrestrial cousins. I'd be surprised if we don't end up, over-populating ourselves to near-extinction soon.I also see a very common theme AKA I think we have all touched base in the
"We're more likely to cause our own extinction"

[atheist_angel]

Because they say the universe is expanding, I wouldn't expect much social contact between any extra-terrestrials, come to think of it. :o

[Logic]

We WILL vanish without trace, perhaps sooner than we think;within hundreds rather than thousands of years.

Well that's kinda depressing! Do you think we can prevent it if we change our evil ways, or is it simply evolution at work and we will be replaced by the next species who can tolerate the barren wasteland we have created of earth?

[gruber]

i found out why the other humans in the galaxy havent found us :D

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.massively.com/media/2008/02/warhammer40k1.jpg

[robertkd]

Well that's kinda depressing! Do you think we can prevent it if we change our evil ways, or is it simply evolution at work and we will be replaced by the next species who can tolerate the barren wasteland we have created of earth?


depends who you talk to,..

Seriously the world is already way to overpopulated, and this is of course a very contentious issue re religious beliefs and perceived rights to breed our selves out of existence. :eek:

Already many fish stocks are being pushed beyond survivability, how do you enforce that short of going to war??

The rising CO2 levels of the ocean is causing issues, as acidification increases, species like Krill will suffer hence the marine food chain will collapse.

Functional forest/rain forest area is being lost faster then efforts to recover these areas.

in short if we all ceased to exist, it would already be too late :(

So is this like the "prey fish choosing the angler fish kinda" natural selection ;)

[robertkd]

i found out why the other humans in the galaxy havent found us :D

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.massively.com/media/2008/02/warhammer40k1.jpg


too true,... :D

[atheist_angel]

I also see a very common theme AKA I think we have all touched base in the "We're more likely to cause our own extinction"Oh, I see what you mean now, sorry. I actually typed out my comment last week in notepad, but my computer locked up before I could post it.
I forgot all about it, until probably 12 hrs ago. Maybe I should have scrapped it. Oh, well. :o

[De-Scribe]

Well, now.
When I worked in a Hospital. A Namerican (USA) patient came out of his anaethetised sleep and asked me, while I was taking his blood pressure, "How long have I been under?"
I smiled like a father to his child knowingly, although he was at least 20 years my senior, "Around 3 months."
Seeing his eyes widen, I quickly went in for the kill.
"Yes thats right. I'm an Austr...Alien and all those bright lights you last saw was when we did some strange stuff to you. Welcome to the United Federation of Oceania or U.F.O for short."
Alas, this poor Namerican man actually did believe me and fear welled in his eyes, so I had to submit to his sense of reality and just say.
"Just joking wit ya mate!"

In a nutshell.
Sure there is 'Life' out there, as there is 'Knowledge' out there too (a lot of people forget this point). But in regards to the 'popular' Namerican (Westernised) perception of Aliens...well everyone needs a mascot.
Some groups of people, rather than believe in an 'intelligence' greater than their own, believe in something like a Neanderthal...something stronger than they are.
:)

[Godless Ray]

Well that's kinda depressing! Do you think we can prevent it if we change our evil ways, or is it simply evolution at work and we will be replaced by the next species who can tolerate the barren wasteland we have created of earth?
__________________


My understading is we have a billion years and then we resemble Mars. I am not sure its something that could be changed.

Godless

[robertkd]

Indeed probably less as a habitable planet due to the influences of the sun, a lot less with the influences of man

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Sun_Life.png

[De-Scribe]

Good picture (artistic expression) Robertkd.
Wonder if the Asian 'overpopulation' will follow the same path?

[robertkd]

I suspect there are no "population boundaries" when it comes to over utilisation of resources, what however political, nationalist boundaries will make of the decreasing food stocks is another issue.

There is nothing like a situation where some have and some do not have, guaranteed to bring out the very best of human attributes :mad:

China at least acknowledges the problem and appears to be proactive which is more then I can say about other regions, how did we get onto this with "alien life" as a topic ?

[paul]

Carl Sagan said,

"Occasionally, I get a letter from someone who is in ‘contact’ with extraterrestrials. I am invited to ‘ask them anything’. And so over the years I’ve prepared a little list of questions . The extraterrestrials are very advanced, remember . So I ask things like, ‘Please provide a short proof of
Fermat ’s Last Theorem’. Or the Goldbach Conjecture. . . I never get an answer. On the other hand, if I ask something like ‘Should we be good?’ I almost always get an answer . Anything vague, especially involving conventional moral judgements, these aliens are extremely happy to respond
to. But on anything specific, where there is a chance to find out if they actually know anything beyond what most humans know, there is only silence”.

[atheist_angel]

When major psychosis is not centered around religion, it is often centered around aliens. A person can even experience both delusions at the same time.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

That might explain the contents of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjhkhi0Ye6s) video...

[Ivan Tudor C McHock]

I would like to know people opinions on this topic.

Do you believe there is, Don't believe? If so why.

Apparently there are roughly 200-400 billion stars in our galaxy and 100-200 billion galaxies. Multiply these two numbers and then multiply the product by however many planets you think the average solar system might contain. Let's say 10. Why not?

That makes the total number of planets in the universe around 4.5 x 10^23. Now if you think that our planet is the only one out of 4.5 x 10^23 planets to contain life, then you might as well just go believe in goddy god god.

However, life, and planet-hopping intelligent life are two very different things. There are many unknowns in the intelligent ET life question.Does life inevitably progress to the point of technology in which we find ourselves or did we fluke it? Extinction-level comet/asteroid strikes happen fairly regularly in the life of a planet. Did we get lucky in not having been wiped out before we flew to the moon?

My guess is that life would be common throughout the universe, but technologically advanced life much less so.

[gruber]

The search for alien life is based on many assumptions, such as, the need for water and the gases on Earth that lead to life but look at Titan a planet which atmosphere is composed mainly off Methane and yet the surface is covered in organic matter. I reckon to actually find life they need to start looking in unlikely places instead of planets that fit in the small catergory of habitable.

[atheist_angel]

When major psychosis is not centered around religion, it is often centered around aliens. A person can even experience both delusions at the same time.HA!

..

[gruber]

laughing at your own jokes...you alright there AA :D

[atheist_angel]

laughing at your own jokes...you alright there AA :D
It just stuck me funny because I've noticed a lot more people making religions and conspiracy theories out of 'UFO sightings' since I posted that!

[Seamus]

Roughly how many billions of galaxies do scientists think is likely?Roughly how many stars per galaxie? Planets per star?

Distances are measured in light years, often many thousands? (after the sun,the nearest star to us is Proxima Centuari,@4.2 light years)

Seems reasonable to me to to suppose it's more likely than not the universe is teeming with life,within a very broad spectrum.

It's my understanding that our solar system is on an arm of the Milky Way galaxy, kind of out of the way for explorers.

Nor can I for the life of me think why any civilisation advanced enough for inter stellar travel would bother with such a nasty,primitive and aggressive species as we.

Oh, do I assume such a race would be benign. For all I know, they might take one look at us, decide the planet would be better off without us (which it would) and do some fumigating.

So yeah,I think there is probably lots of life out there, much of it far smarter than we. I'm no hurry to meet it.

[gruber]

Nor can I for the life of me think why any civilisation advanced enough for inter stellar travel would bother with such a nasty,primitive and aggressive species as we.


well seeing that we can live in various hostile environments and that we are aggressive what better use could they have for us then as Shock Troopers:D

[atheist_angel]

If that life was really intelligent, it would take a close look, nod what passes for a head sadly, and keep on going.
If it were anything like us...

It would likely do the fumigation and then strip the remaining planet of anything of value.

It would also dump its garbage behind.

[Spud Henley]

NOTE - I am using the long scale number naming system not the short scale where a billion is actually a thousand million.

Apparently a thousand million (1,000,000,000) planets are belived to exist in the Milky Way alone. A thousand million galaxies are also known to exist. If you assume a thousand million planets per galaxy that's a trillion (1,000,000,000,000,000,000) planets. If the odds at life like on Earth occurs are one in a thousand million then there is still a thousand million planets life like ours could have evolved.

Now there might be other types we can't understand like rock creatures from Star Trek made of minerals but only assuming like on Earth (Plants, Fungi, Animals) that is a whooping one thousand million (1,000,000,000).

Yes there's probably life out there, did it visit us? I'm certain no.

[Jaar-Gilon]

Apparently there are roughly 200-400 billion stars in our galaxy and 100-200 billion galaxies. Multiply these two numbers and then multiply the product by however many planets you think the average solar system might contain. Let's say 10. Why not?

That makes the total number of planets in the universe around 4.5 x 10^23. Now if you think that our planet is the only one out of 4.5 x 10^23 planets to contain life, then you might as well just go believe in goddy god god.

I find this to be an extraodinary comment, equating the skepticism on the certainty of life elsewhere in the universe with faith in god. Oh my :eek:

[atheist_angel]

I'm almost certain (mathematically) there has to be life on other planets...

But considering what evolution had to go through just to create us ... a single somewhat-intelligent species that has the limbs and digits to move about and create things ... I wouldn't expect species, comparable to us, to be a common occurence just yet, given the age of the universe and all.

(I could be wrong, dunno.)

[Spud Henley]

It seems that the numbers may be different but in plain maths this still equates to alot of bloody chances of life elsewhere.

[Loki]

Not terribly interested in the probabilities myself. Can't see any reason ambiogenesis can't or doesn't happen but also can't see any reason to get too concerned. We'll either find other life or we won't, the main thing is to be out there, exploring and expanding, with our eyes open, and for other reasons than "the search for life". If it's there we'll fall over it eventually.

I can see why it would be a big deal for many believers and would force a rearrangement of their delusions. I can also see many happily fitting it into their fairy tale if presented with evidence they can't ignore (though being eaten by it wouldn't be sufficient evidence for some). I can also see bacterial life being written off as not sufficiently "advanced" to upset the billy-cart. For myself it will just be "well that's interesting, but not surprising".

[Spud Henley]

I can also see bacterial life being written off as not sufficiently "advanced" to upset the billy-cart.

LIFE IS LIFE IS LIFE IS LIFE. Anyone who doesn't recognise bacteria or fungus can get stuffed!

[Loki]

Oh they can get stuffed for a lot of other reasons as well. Theists do seem to have a knack for weaseling around inconvenient facts though.

[Sanity personified]

Well I guess believing in aliens is more plausible than believing in God ;)

Wel go outside at night and look up, See those little white specks. They are where aliens call home. Where is yawn-weh's home? Ever seen that?

[Seamus]

well seeing that we can live in various hostile environments and that we are aggressive what better use could they have for us then as Shock Troopers:D

As it turns out,I've just seen 'Avatar' and was pretty impressed with the robot thingy with a marine inside. I'm sure aliens would have half-feral domestic pets which could do as well.:p


-as for the rest of he films; pretty underwhelming.Just a fancy cartoon. I understand why it made squillions.

[gruber]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/06/100606103125.htm

an article released in June, regarding Titan

[A Monkey Shaved]

I can't say I have read of any evidence of alien life but there are plenty of logical arguments for a belief in alien life. The fact of the matter is the Earth itself demonstrates that bio-spherical planets are possible and do not need to violate that laws of nature to get that way, and I subscribe to a premise if it can happen naturally it can happen again. With God not only isn't there any evidence but also there is no logic behind such a belief because there is not even one proven specimen of such a supernatural spirit being, so I just have to default to the position if it cannot happen naturally it can never happen at all, and that goes for God. If we could have one supernatural spirit being proven to exist like we have our biosphere Earth we would have some to go by to speculate on the existence of an even greater supernatural spirit being called God.

[Slothhead]

I would like to know people opinions on this topic.

Do you believe there is, Don't believe? If so why.


I dont particularly like the grammar of the question. It is nearly like asking, do i believe in evolution, do i believe the sky is blue. These are simply observed facts.

As i say, nearly, the examples are of course observable.

Though we dont have any observations yet of alien life, we do have a number observations suggesting a likelihood.

So we have observed, given natural laws, life can get going - we are here.
We also have observed that amino acids have been found in space occuring naturally.
A further observation includes the ability for life to sustain and flourish under conditions often referred to as extreme.

Thus given these observations (and others) it is likely that a high diversity of 'simple' life exists in the galaxy.
Obviously, multicellular or complex life would be less common, and intelligent technological societies less common again.

This is of course based on current data and we may find with further research regarding planet formation etc, that this changes the probabilities heavily in either direction.

I think one of the exciting things about it though is the implications. So if we carry on with SETI for the next hundred years, with every increasing degrees of tech, and we dont or do discover something else out there, it will speak volumes for our galaxy.

[Ce4or]

I have been advised on a US forum that if there is life elsewhere in the universe.
Jesus has been there and died for their sins as well.http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd102/chris-41/groan.gif

[DanDare]

I have been advised on a US forum that if there is life elsewhere in the universe.
Jesus has been there and died for their sins as well.http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd102/chris-41/groan.gif
Just imagine what crucifixion must be like on the octopus planet! :eek:

[A Monkey Shaved]

http://maya12-21-2012.com/2012forum/gallery/128_10_02_10_10_35_44.jpeg

Now I just wonder what the crucifixion from The Blob planet would look like?

[DanDare]

Obviously blobs cannot be saved, only splattered around.

[Seamus]

The idea of alien saviours was seriously discussed at the Catholic school I attended.

The consensus was that it is statistically likely that there are countless other planets as advanced as our own.

We had no idea how many other species would have been as bloody minded as ours,had THE FALL and needed a saviour.:p

[Godless Ray]

I was reading a book recently written by the chap who set up some of the origional life on Mars experiments. In one, they dropped nutrient onto the soil and searched for a life signiture. The answer was declared a "negative" but it was before we fully understood the more extreme forms of life here on Earth. They repeated the exact experiment amongst extremophiles living near the artic regions and got the same reults as on Mars. The reason? The solution killed them. It way to rich.

A review now of the Martion results is now much more biased towards "yes we have found life".

Question: Does anyoone know how far Earths radio signals would have got to and how much volume SETI has searched to date?

[Threat]

I would like to know people opinions on this topic.

Do you believe there is, Don't believe? If so why.

I don't, as there's no evidence of it (at least of current life)... yet. But there's a hell alot more unexplored space than mapped and analysed.

If you've ever read Stephen Baxters novels, they deal with these kind of questions in a grand sci-fi way. But he references real data/quotes/etc. There was one he mentioned, the Fermi Paradox.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox

By probability, there has to be some other, comparable life to our own, but by the same probability there should have been some sign of others who came before us. The chance that we are 'First' out of many is ridiculous. It would be like winning the lottery.

[Seamus]

The chance that we are 'First' out of many is ridiculous. It would be like winning the lottery.

Argument from incredulity and irrelevant..

[Threat]

Argument from incredulity and irrelevant..


Thanks for pointing that out Seamus, yeah, it's not ridiculous. But, for example, say you take a sample size of 1000 civilisations, then the chance of us being the 1st one is 1 in 1000, whereas the chance of us being any of the other 999 is 999 in 1000... ??? Am I correct or have I forgotten some basic here? This comparison is only used as in the Fermi paradox, it's assumed that previous civilisations would have left something or still be doing something, that is 'visible' to us (which I understand is a big assumption). If we didn't have that piece of information, you wouldn't be able to differentiate 1 data point from the other 999. Please tell me if I missed something simple here and sound like an idiot :)

Best way to learn is by getting it wrong.

[Xeno]

@Threat: It is hard to draw a sample of a thousand civilisations when you do not yet know there is more than one. Therefore, to say "it is absurd to expect we are the first" begs the question about multiples. I happen to expect there will be more but I have no evidence for it.

I recollect in one of Sagan's works (probably Cosmos) he discussed the hypotheses and expectations once held about possible life under Venus' blanketing cloud. He summarised the optimism of past scientists in the following wonderful lines:Fact: We know nothing about the surface of Venus.
Conclusion: It must be teeming with life.:)

[cyclist]

The way I look at it, is that there are estimates that there are 500 billion galaxies in the universe, suppose that is 5 times too high, so there are only 100 billion galaxies. Now the Milky Way at the low estimate contains 200 billion stars.

So, in the universe, there are a lot of stars, even if only 1 in a million has planets, and only 1 in a million of those supports life, then there are a lot of other life forms out there. Even if the figures are 1 in a billion for each. That still means that there are some 2,000 planets with life. I don't know how many other stars we have found with planets, but I know that it isn't a small number anymore.

So, am I prepared to believe in the existence of Aliens? Yes. But that is as far as I go. To me, it is statistically unlikely that we are the only form of life in the Universe. There is some recent evidence that there might be bacterial life on Titan, but at this stage, that is unproven. But if we find other life in the Solar System, then I think that it pretty much means that life is certain within any other system that has planets.

While I am aware that there was some 9 billion years between the Big Bang and the creation of the Earth, I think that there weren't that many galaxies for a while. I would be curious to know when the earliest galaxies started forming. Then you can theroise that life may have occured on them. If other life is out there, then I suspect that we have been beaten to Intelligence by a few billion years.

I am aware that this post is full of theory and conjecture.

James

[Threat]

@Threat: It is hard to draw a sample of a thousand civilisations when you do not yet know there is more than one. Therefore, to say "it is absurd to expect we are the first" begs the question about multiples. I happen to expect there will be more but I have no evidence for it.


Well said Xeno. 1000 is only an arbitrary value selected by me. But really, it's all hypothesis and conjecture at this point as we have zero evidence right now. Basically that Fermi paradox boils down to 'there are so many stars there must be other intelligent life somewhere, but there are so many stars there would be signs of intellligent life already' hence the paradox.

One solution to the Fermi paradox is that we are in a quarantined zone...

[owheelj]

It seems to me reasonable to think that there's probably some form of self sustaining replicating things in the universe, which basically meets our definition of life. Whether it is at all similar to life as we know it or not would be just speculation.

There's definitely no actual meaningful evidence to suggest that any form of "alien" life exists, so I think it would be irrational to make a claim that it actually exists or not.

Regarding intelligent life, we really don't have anywhere near enough information to be able to make a claim about it's probability, except to say that from the perspective of what we can see, it's very unlikely. If you take the Drake equation, but only use the information that we actually have, since it was described, the probability of a communicating alien civilisation existing has been getting smaller every time we get more information. However there are far too many variables for it to be meaningful.

I think the rational position to take on alien life is that we don't know it exists, and we have no evidence to suggest it does - but we can make somewhat reasonable arguments for it existing.

I'm as confident that there aren't aliens visiting Earth as I am that God doesn't exist

[Goldenmane]

Life is chemistry. Complex chemistry, for the most part, to be sure, but complexity arises whenever a bunch of little things interact. I'd be surprised, I have to admit, if 'life' wasn't a reasonably common phenomenon.

Indeed, I'd go so far as to say that it may well be likely that in situations where conditions are suitable for life to begin, that it is pretty much inevitable.

Same may go for 'intelligent' life - though we're going to need a useful definition of intelligence to have that conversation.

All that being said, even should intelligent life be fairly common in the vast motherfucker of the universe, there's not really any reason to expect that we'll ever find or interact with it. It may be possible to come up with a form of transport or communication (or both) that overcome the tyrannical barriers of time and distance (such as the whole light-speed problem), but no-one's come up with anything that seems anything more than very faintly possible, and even those require orders of magnitude increases in our production and control of vast amounts of energy.

Here's another thing: we scan the skies for radio signals from other civilisations. What the hell is that going to achieve? Even if we found such signals, we'd have fuck-all in the way of decoding them. On top of which, we've been broadcasting radio for what, about a century? The species has been around for a thousand times as long, and there's every reason to suspect that at some time in the near future we'll either get wiped the fuck out by Yellowstone getting obstreperous or a great big rock hitting the planet or just through our own overblown stupidity; or we'll stop spraying radio signals out into deep space in a wasteful and untidy (and potentially dangerous) manner.

And even if we did detect radio signals that we could decode from a far-distant civilisation, so fucking what? Chances are it would be the xeno-equivalent of some mindless bullshit daytime soap or infomercial anyway, probably thousands of years old. There would be no point in sending a signal back, because by the time it got there whatever the hell those creatures were, they sure as fuck wouldn't be the same beastie by the time our signals got to them anyway. Probably, neither would we - we'd either have disappeared or changed our society and technology in ways as to make such a signal obsolete before it left the solar system. You can't effectively communicate over those kinds of distance with a medium limited to light-speed.

[DanDare]

Detecting a signal from space, even if we never decode it, provides us with scientific information. It is also a slap in the face to the Earthcentrists. It also gives us evidence that other scientific species exist and survive for some period of time, giving us hope for ourselves. Makes it all worthwhile to me.

[tymygy]

Well, I think of it like this. There are some dwarf galaxies that can have as little as 10 million stars, there are averege galaxies like the milky way that has 200 billion stars, but there are also monstrous galaxies that can have 10 trillion stars. On averege, there is 100b-1t stars in each galaxy. There are many different estimates, but alot of them are around 200 billion galaxies in the universe.

Now imagine, how many stars have planets revolving around them? how many of those are in the "goldilocks zone"? Of course we could never make a reasonable estimate, but just imagine. There are billions. Maybe more!

If life could have arose here, why can't it arise somewhere else?

Obviously the life won't be like us, the life may not even be around anymore. (extinction) Mars could have had life on it, but now all the water and atmosphere is gone so right there, at anytime, life could seize to exist.

My point is, its silly to think we're alone. :D

[Justtristo]

I would like to know people opinions on this topic.

Do you believe there is, Don't believe? If so why.

I firmly believe life (at least in a simple form) is extremely common in the universe, more complex I believe is more rarer and intelligent life still more rarer.

[SinisterDexter]

My point is, its silly to think we're alone. :D

Well, given our sample size, it is actually logical, at this point, to think we are alone.

Extrapolations are just that, extrapolations. We don't know if we're alone and all the evidence to date suggests we are. Granted, our evidence base is extremely limited, but it is entirely possible that the numbers involved in the Drake Equation (or similar) are much less favourable that we might expect.

It isprobably silly, at this point, to come down too strongly on one side or the other.

[GenericBox]

NASA accused of using photoshop to cover up alien craft

Posted on October 9, 2010 (http://theinformativereport.com/2010/10/09/nasa-accused-of-using-photoshop-to-cover-up-alien-craft/) by David Kolle (http://theinformativereport.com/author/rockstix/)
http://resources3.news.com.au/images/2010/10/08/1225936/142763-saturn-039-s-moons-dione-and-titan.jpg
The NASA (http://www.nasa.gov/home/index.html) image of Saturn’s moons Dione (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dione_%28moon%29) and Titan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_%28moon%29), left, and the high-contrast version showing Photoshop (http://adobe.com/photoshop) marks, right.



ALIEN conspiracy theorists are confident they’ve caught NASA in the act of covering up the fact we are not alone in the universe.

A video posted on YouTube yesterday showed how an image of Saturn’s moons Dione and Titan, taken by NASA’s Cassini orbiter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassini%E2%80%93Huygens), had been Photoshopped before being added to a Picture of the Day website.
In the video, “DominatorPS3″ turned up the brightness levels on the photo to show that a “huge” object can be seen behind the smaller moon, Dione.
Clearly visible are brush strokes that show how the rainbow aura of the object has been blacked out.
“More solid proof of NASA/ government coverups,” DominatorPS3 said.
“… and this is recent. You can do this yourself!!”
Of course, being the internet, it didn’t take long for the truth to get out there, so to speak.
The person responsible for the manipulation, Emily Lakdawalla, told a forum of excitable theorists that she made the changes because of the way Cassini takes photos.
“Cassini takes colour pictures by snapping three sequential photos through red, green, and blue filters,” she said.
“In the time that separated the three frames, Dione moved, so if I did a simple color composite I would be able to make Titan look right, but not Dione; or Dione look right, but not Titan.
“So I aligned Dione, cut it out, and then aligned Titan, and then had to account for the missing bits of shadow where the bits of Dione had been in two of the three channels.”
She explained the process further at Planetary.org but it still wasn’t enough for the alien hunters, particularly DominatorPS3.
“Thanks for the feedback and explanation,” he said in a comment on the YouTube post.
“However I still remain sceptical because someone still could have ordered her to ‘cut it or something out’.
“But thanks for putting that info up so others can read it; I am not trying to convince people what I believe.”

[tymygy]

Well, given our sample size, it is actually logical, at this point, to think we are alone.

Extrapolations are just that, extrapolations. We don't know if we're alone and all the evidence to date suggests we are. Granted, our evidence base is extremely limited, but it is entirely possible that the numbers involved in the Drake Equation (or similar) are much less favourable that we might expect.

It isprobably silly, at this point, to come down too strongly on one side or the other.

What evidence shows we are and what evidence shows we aren't?

[A Monkey Shaved]

I have to admit that as far as extra-terrestrial life is concerned I am an agnostic but in spite of being absolutely no evidence of it I find it to be far more plausible than God because I have think that in spite of the lack of evidence there are far better logical arguments for extra-terrestrial life than God. With God I have not even encountered a decent logical argument let alone evidence.

[SinisterDexter]

What evidence shows we are and what evidence shows we aren't?

OK, perhaps I should have said "all the lack of evidence" because, to date, the sample size is one. There is no evidence of extraterrestrial life, in any form, or any remnants of extraterrestrial life. Please note the very next sentence that notes that the pile of evidence (relevant to the size of the universe we have within which to gather it) is rather small.

Look, I agree with you that I think the probabilities are probably in favour of there being intelligent life 'out there', what I disagreed with was the assertion that it was "silly" to believe otherwise.

[Deanus-Maximus]

Look, I agree with you that I think the probabilities are probably in favour of there being intelligent life 'out there', what I disagreed with was the assertion that it was "silly" to believe otherwise.
As I'm sure we're all aware, believing something doesn't necessarily make it true. The question of "Is there intelligent life out there?" remains unanswered and is open to speculation and discussion. Until they beam me up, I'll remain indifferent but hopeful.

[michalis]

http://www.whispermag.co.uk/siteimage/scale/0/0/28994.gif

[tymygy]

OK, perhaps I should have said "all the lack of evidence" because, to date, the sample size is one. There is no evidence of extraterrestrial life, in any form, or any remnants of extraterrestrial life. Please note the very next sentence that notes that the pile of evidence (relevant to the size of the universe we have within which to gather it) is rather small.

Look, I agree with you that I think the probabilities are probably in favour of there being intelligent life 'out there', what I disagreed with was the assertion that it was "silly" to believe otherwise.

Hmmm, Lack of evidence. Well, when I think of evidence, I look at us, I look at our world. We can barely see whats going on on other planets outside our solar system, all we can do is guess. But if life is here, why can't it be somewhere else? Even if life is a one in a million, or maybe one in a billion kind of thing, there are enough planets to cover this. I always imagine a world, too far away for us to reach in a billion years, thinking the same questions.

I also get excited wondering, what if there are worlds so close together (like mars and earth to us) that they both developed life, and both interact with eachother as a technological civilization arose on one or two of the planets. Anyways, I'm rambling. The point is, we're here, it's SILLY to think in this vast universe of trillions and trillions and trillions of stars and even more planets, that we could be the one and only.

[Threat]

Hmmm, Lack of evidence. Well, when I think of evidence, I look at us, I look at our world. We can barely see whats going on on other planets outside our solar system, all we can do is guess. But if life is here, why can't it be somewhere else? Even if life is a one in a million, or maybe one in a billion kind of thing, there are enough planets to cover this. I always imagine a world, too far away for us to reach in a billion years, thinking the same questions.

I also get excited wondering, what if there are worlds so close together (like mars and earth to us) that they both developed life, and both interact with eachother as a technological civilization arose on one or two of the planets. Anyways, I'm rambling. The point is, we're here, it's SILLY to think in this vast universe of trillions and trillions and trillions of stars and even more planets, that we could be the one and only.


But Tymygy, I think its just as 'silly' to think we're not alone. In this vast universe of trillions and trillions and trillions of stars and even more planets, a civilisation pre-dating ours should have left a mark for us to see or communicated by now. The fact that its quiet at all is evidence that we are alone (a very small, tiny piece of evidence). But you've missed Sinister's point that there is no evidence of alien life right now. We can talk about the probabilities as long as we want and it still won't change the fact that there is no evidence right now.

[tymygy]

But Tymygy, I think its just as 'silly' to think we're not alone. In this vast universe of trillions and trillions and trillions of stars and even more planets, a civilisation pre-dating ours should have left a mark for us to see or communicated by now. The fact that its quiet at all is evidence that we are alone (a very small, tiny piece of evidence). But you've missed Sinister's point that there is no evidence of alien life right now. We can talk about the probabilities as long as we want and it still won't change the fact that there is no evidence right now.

I never denied his claim of no evidence, nor did I say there was evidence. I'm attempting to use logic to explain the possibilities of another planet with life.

a civilisation pre-dating ours should have left a mark for us to see or communicated by now. Says who? The universe is so large, SO large. Do you honestly believe we could have had communication with some other advanced E.T. from billions of light-years away? Besides, we've only been a technological civilisation for a few decades. Maybe we missed the "signal" in the millions of years we've been evolving into what we are today.

[SinisterDexter]

I never denied his claim of no evidence, nor did I say there was evidence. I'm attempting to use logic to explain the possibilities of another planet with life.

a civilisation pre-dating ours should have left a mark for us to see or communicated by now. Says who? The universe is so large, SO large. Do you honestly believe we could have had communication with some other advanced E.T. from billions of light-years away? Besides, we've only been a technological civilisation for a few decades. Maybe we missed the "signal" in the millions of years we've been evolving into what we are today.

I don't necessarily disagree with you on the likelihood of alien life existing, but you assert that the other position is silly when all you have to go on are probabilities.

You say yourself we can only guess, and this is true at this point. We have no evidence for alien life on one hand, and a set of probability equations on the other hand based on a sample size of one and extrapolation through unknown factors. At this point, there are logical justifications for supporting the likelihood of both 'sides' (and I actually happen to favour your side of the argument), but the claim that one particular side is "silly" is hyperbolic. It asserts a degree of knowledge for one position for which no evidence exists.

It may be a logical position, but as there is a knowledge gap, it is not the only logical position.

[robertkd]

ummm I think I might have proof positive, having twin post plebiscite (late teen) boys still at home (yes I know, I know,..) some of the specimens of growth found in various drink, cereal &etc containers clearly meets the bill "it's life Jim but not as we know it,.." :rolleyes::D

[tymygy]

I don't necessarily disagree with you on the likelihood of alien life existing, but you assert that the other position is silly when all you have to go on are probabilities.

You say yourself we can only guess, and this is true at this point. We have no evidence for alien life on one hand, and a set of probability equations on the other hand based on a sample size of one and extrapolation through unknown factors. At this point, there are logical justifications for supporting the likelihood of both 'sides' (and I actually happen to favour your side of the argument), but the claim that one particular side is "silly" is hyperbolic. It asserts a degree of knowledge for one position for which no evidence exists.

It may be a logical position, but as there is a knowledge gap, it is not the only logical position.

Your right, I may be jumping to conclusions. I did some thinking, and, yes, there is a chance we are alone, its unlikely, but a chance.

Thank you for the keen logic. :D

[SinisterDexter]

No worries tymygy. I apologise for labouring the point, I wouldn't normally do so (especially where I agree with the sentiment) - but this seemed important for some reason.

This whole laser spike thing at Gliese is interesting though. Maybe it is the first proof positive? Maybe not.

[DanDare]

There are a lot of eyes and lenses scanning Gliese now. If there is something to find at the resolution available to us it shouldn't take too long to find it.

[A Monkey Shaved]

Gliese 581c could be tidally locked which means one hemisphere would be permanant facing its star which could make it pretty hot on one side and a frozen ice cap on the other

[DanDare]

Gliese 581c could be tidally locked which means one hemisphere would be permanant facing its star which could make it pretty hot on one side and a frozen ice cap on the other
If it has an atmosphere that would make for some interesting weather patterns. And what about tectonics?

[robertkd]

You do realise that the planet is only theorised based on variations of the stars brightness and can't actually be "seen" all we know is that there is a mass "i.e. a planet" orbiting a star anything more is conjecture.

It may or may not have an atmosphere although it should do given it's predicted mass. it may or may not have water nothing says it has in deed we know nothing about it except that there is a body orbiting a star some 20LY away from ours.

hey just an observation,... :confused:

[DanDare]

...in deed we know nothing about it except that there is a body orbiting a star some 20LY away from ours.
Even that is uncertain, but there are some reasonable probabilities so its interesting to speculate.

[Loki]

It also seems (going from the latest Non Scientist) that it will be problemmatic to learn a lot more as Gliese 851g doesn't pass between us and it's sun so refraction through atmosphere can't be used. I'm sure they will come up with some nifty tricks and learn a lot, but overall this is a big dampener on possibilities.

[robertkd]

Even that is uncertain, but there are some reasonable probabilities so its interesting to speculate.

True that ;)

[A Monkey Shaved]

If it has an atmosphere that would make for some interesting weather patterns. And what about tectonics?

I was reading if it has an eccentric orbit - even very slight - the tentonics (due to being tidally locked) could be as extreme as they are on Jupiter's Io which could make conditions very uncomfortable as life as we know it.

[gruber]

With the launch of the latest, 13ton, $2.5 billion probe to Mars, do you think there is the possiblity that it could discover signs of life?

[DanDare]

Depends on where they look and what they look for. The problem is we don't know what bio chemistries are actually possible, or in detail what would be signs of metabolism. If life on Earth is as it is because it is the only workable system then I would say the odds of finding life on Mars are lowish, or even evidence of past life now extinct. If, on the other hand there can be what Paul Davies calls "weird life", we wouldn't necessarily know how to detect it.

[Seamus]

With the launch of the latest, 13ton, $2.5 billion probe to Mars, do you think there is the possiblity that it could discover signs of life?

Possible? of course;water has already been found on Mars.Likely? I have no idea.

[gruber]

On that "through the wormhole" show with Morgan Freeman, there is a researcher who studied a Martian rock that landed in the Artic, while it had been slightly infested with Earth grown bacteria, he discovered that a certain Carbon was inside it. He said the only wy for this Carbon to exist was for a life form to eat or absorb the Carbon type (forget the number) that was present and what is left over is this magnetic type, which was present in the rock