the real jesus

[Bik]

It's unfortunate that we christians give Jesus such a bad name. I been a christian for 8 years and I get frustrated right at wing christians telling people how to live and what to think. I grew up in a left wing atheist household and I was an outspoken atheist as a teenager and I rejected that right wing self righteous rubbish and I still do. When I was in my early twenties I wanted more out of life and I wanted answers. Being very anti amercian I almost went into a mosque. But the more I read about Jesus and his compassion for the sick and the poor I developed a respect for him and I stopped saying his name as a swear word because he was good guy. Cut a long story short I wanted to get baptized because I was convicted of my sin (yes I was a bad person that done alot of dumb things that I couldn't forgive myself for) and I walked in off the street as a chronic drug user, depressed and angry and met Jesus in the baptizism tank. It was the truth I was looking for and I had been completly forgiven of my sin and I knew God was real. I left that place not knowing anyone but the love of Christ. Jesus instantly took away my drug addictions including cigarettes, swearing and gambling addiction, three days later my wife believed and Christ healed our broken relationship. Christ heals the broken hearted and sets the captive free and that's who the real Jesus is. He saved my life and gave me purpose. Christians need to read the stories about the sinful woman and the adultress woman and the prodigal son and truly understand the essense of God.:)

[Fearless]

Hello Bik, welcome to the forums.

I am glad you got over your hardships. You may be hard pressed to convince a lot of us Atheists about how Jesus helps people in the ways you have described. I guess the obvious question is how can you prove your god exists without resorting to the bible for answers.

It is interesting to see you start by saying that some xtians give you a not so good name, who exactly are you referring to?

Cheers

[Bik]

mainly evangelicals who love war and power

[Logic]

Christ heals the broken hearted and sets the captive free and that's who the real Jesus is. He saved my life and gave me purpose.

Hi Bik

Have you considered that it was in fact you who saved your own life? You, who made the decision to stop using drugs, you, who saved your marriage. It would seem you derived the emotional strength you required to do so from what I like to call an 'invisible means of support' or what you would call 'finding God' but ultimately you took the actions to correct your life. Why credit Jesus or God with that?

[Bik]

there was no counselling or life coaching or any change in my circumstances, just had a born again experience with jesus. Sorry mate but there's no logic in that whatsoever but I know it wasn't me

[Bik]

I don't no what to say, but I'm telling you the truth and that's what important

[Bik]

Honestly I never thought jesus could help me but when I was at the bottom i thought why not and everything I wanted in life was given to me in that very hour, thank you Jesus

[TÐöer]

Hi Bik, Welcome to the forum.

Yes, there are good people, and there are saints. What you said about your experience, is true, and I believed it all happened. Omit the part where you actually saw the "Truth" and Jesus in that tank.

The experience you had was genuine, and many others of different religions, Hindus, Taoist, Buddhist, Muslims, Jews all felt it for their God as well. And all of them had a sometimes loving gods too.

Religion is a requirement for people who have lost their direction and purpose in life or those wanting to take the easy way out.

At 1 point you must have felt really uncomfortable, and kept asking yourself whether God is real... and the moment you let go, and accept him, you feel a stark relief. And believe that it is evidence of his existence.

I can tell you that, I have been to both Church and Buddhist events, where they ask you to just have faith, and that same feeling cropped up. I soon realised the feeling was not me denying the truth, but our instinct that is telling us that this whole thing is not right, even though we know it will ease all our troubles.

[Bik]

I'm very sure

[Bik]

Well I appreciate you guys, but there's alot of hatred toward Jesus, and if you knew the jesus i know you wouldn't hate him and I just want to let you know that. In fact my dad is a self confessed atheist like i used to be and our relationship has never been better since I've been a christian. I don't like alot of what christians do and say, but as a believer I don't have any agenda to change culture or oppress and discriminate against people. Honestly I am weak and I do need God in my life but that's okay with me.

[Bik]

Like I said I have no agenda and you don't have to believe it. It's just been my experience with God.

[TÐöer]

But.... we all do know him. We've all been to church (yes, even protium, and his house of books). We've all read his book.

It's good that you are a moderate Christian in comparison to other fanatics who give your religion a bad name.

But in order for you to be moderate, you will need to do some serious filtering of the book or else you would be the same as the rest.

I respect that you are a Christian, and I applaud that you respect others' views as well.

In the end it is a matter of choice. Whether we believed in 1 god or the next, or find meaning in life ourselves.

As for meaningful role models there are plenty, you can look at each religion and you will find them. You can even find them outside of religion.

I just implore, that religious types do not force people to drink their brand of medicine over other safer alternatives.

Your case is the exception, but I have just seen it too common that families are broken, because family members convert to any religion. A child would not perform a pagan burial rite for his deceased parents despite him knowing that the ritual itself is nothing but a gesture and their dying wish.

Just because God, rather he disobeyed, disrespect and disowned his parents then to perform a ritual which even though innocent was deemed sinful.

[Bik]

My God healed me of surfer's ear and he healed my heart after a heart attack which baffled the doctor's and I had a dream of the sun darkening and the moon turning blood red as it is written in that book you don't like very much 3 years before I was saved and I'd never even read it. But that's not why I know God is real, it's the fact he forgave me and I'm now free from guilt and shame. Believe it or not it's a fact in my life. hallelujah

[TÐöer]

Lol..... sorry about that, but you just said a forbidden word.

Your a good guy Bik, but you need to know that Miracles don't just happen in Christianity. And no doctor has subscribed God as a cure for a reason. Why is that?

Why do statistics constantly show that it is the same either you're a Christian or a Buddhist?

[TÐöer]

Maybe you come from a Country where there is only 1 religion. But I can tell you that miracles occur everywhere every time.

Just attend a Taoist or Hindu procession, and you will find lots of people who swear by their god, and believed their god has performed miracles on them. To show their gratitude, some of them perform amazing feats, like piercing their body and carrying their heavy statues on their backs. The feats itself, are further proof of their god's miracles.

[TÐöer]

Buddhist have sworn to be able to attain peace whenever they meditate. One describe an occurance as suddenly seeing Lotus in a pond... and immediately he felt calm, happy and blissful, through out the day all he could see were Lotus.

In Buddhism, there is also a form of meditation where monks would meditate on "bones" and gradually, all they would see is bones. Up to an extent that they could immediately see that you have a fracture without using x-rays. Is this another miracle?

[Bik]

Yeah i know Mr Black lol, it's none of those things you have mentioned and yes I am on an atheist web site so I'II rack off and leave you to it and I'II try not to say God bless with respect in mind. Over and out.

[Bik]

Hey Mr Black one more thing, "And now I say to you, keep away from these men and leave them alone, for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing, but if it is of God then you cannot over throw it" Acts 5:39

[TÐöer]

Doer, just a question on the side... in your country, rich with a variety of religions, does Krishna appear to the muslims, the virgin Mary show up infront of a gathering of buddhists, or a boddhisattva arise from among the local Assembly Of God?

:p No they don't. Basically they see what they want to see.

For the Buddhist retreat I mentioned before. During it's construction the Indonesian workers have sworn they have seen a woman dressed in white scouring the grounds in the dead of the night.

They related it to the monk who told them they have seen the Boddhisattva Guan Yin (Goddess of Mercy).

Later on he changed his story and told us, it was the Legendary Princess of Mount Ophir where the area so happens to be.

[TÐöer]

Hey Mr Black one more thing, "And now I say to you, keep away from these men and leave them alone, for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing, but if it is of God then you cannot over throw it" Acts 5:39

Another taboo..

but out of curiousity from a non-christian, what does that mean anyway?

[TÐöer]

I have just removed my location... I have found some fundies descriminatory when choosing who to reply.

[davo]

Hey Mr Black one more thing, "And now I say to you, keep away from these men and leave them alone, for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing, but if it is of God then you cannot over throw it" Acts 5:39

I like this one :

Psalm 137:9

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

[Fearless]

Hey Mr Black one more thing, "And now I say to you, keep away from these men and leave them alone, for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing, but if it is of God then you cannot over throw it" Acts 5:39

Oh dear... I was hopeful, but got thwarted.

[Surprised Peter]

Don't fool yourself. Jesus didn't forgive you. The most important person forgave you. That's you. Good on ya.

Surprised Peter

[atheist_angel]

there was no counselling or life coaching or any change in my circumstances, just had a born again experience with jesus. Sorry mate but there's no logic in that whatsoever but I know it wasn't me

Well Bik, it sounds like you had a spiritual experience.

A 'spiritual experience' is more accurately referred to as a Peak experience and you don't have to be religious to have them.

Just thought you might not have known, since you became religious after yours.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Why haven't you read the Bible yet if you are a Christian?
Are you one of the 95% of religious people who are posers and only pick and choose what laws of your religion you want to follow and ignore the rest?

I think the hypocrite detector has picked up something. I wonder what it is ;)

[Bik]

Well that is weird Mr Black. I haven't been on this site since 26 August last year and you were wondering what happened to me today and here I am. Coincidence or an act of God. LOL

[wolty]

Hehehehe, coincidence? Probably not. Act of god? Which god?

More likely email alert. :)

[Bik]

Good mate, and you?

[Bik]

Had few beers with my Dad, he's an atheist. I dislocated my kneecap and put my leg at a very painful right angle and the doctors put me under (conscious sedation) to pop it back in. While I was under I met Alice in wonderland and took a roller coaster ride saturn and back. Quite an experience. Other than that things have been good.:)

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Hehehehe, coincidence? Probably not. Act of god? Which god?

More likely email alert. :)I know Santa Claus had something to do with it.

It also had something to do with the question in my last post on this thread remaining unanswered. ;)

[Bik]

Settle down Crocodile, I wasn't talking to you and I'm not interested in taking the bait.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Settle down Crocodile, I wasn't talking to you and I'm not interested in taking the bait.
There's no bait here. Just a question which has not been answered for over a year. Here's the entire post:
Why haven't you read the Bible yet if you are a Christian?
Are you one of the 95% of religious people who are posers and only pick and choose what laws of your religion you want to follow and ignore the rest?

I think the hypocrite detector has picked up something. I wonder what it is ;)Now if you can't extract the question yourself, here it is:Why haven't you read the Bible yet if you are a Christian?
Are you one of the 95% of religious people who are posers and only pick and choose what laws of your religion you want to follow and ignore the rest?There is no need for any of that "macho" attitude here.

[Darwinsbulldog]

Like I said I have no agenda and you don't have to believe it. It's just been my experience with God.
We don't doubt that you had an experience Bik, just your interpretation of what that experience was.

[Xeno]

Settle down Crocodile, I wasn't talking to you and I'm not interested in taking the bait.The bait? Why do you consider it bait?

Picking and choosing laws of religion to follow or not is an area that interests me. I keep asking on what basis christians decide which bit of the bible to follow and which not, and keep not getting any answer. I take it from your post above that you [will not be volunteering / will not admit the basis / haven't a fucking clue] either.

[Bik]

Where did I say I hadn't read the bible?

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Bik, you mentioned here you never read it: My God healed me of surfer's ear and he healed my heart after a heart attack which baffled the doctor's and I had a dream of the sun darkening and the moon turning blood red as it is written in that book you don't like very much 3 years before I was saved and I'd never even read it. But that's not why I know God is real, it's the fact he forgave me and I'm now free from guilt and shame. Believe it or not it's a fact in my life. hallelujah

Also, there is an indication clearly you have never read it, in these posts at least:

Well I appreciate you guys, but there's alot of hatred toward Jesus, and if you knew the jesus i know you wouldn't hate him and I just want to let you know that. In fact my dad is a self confessed atheist like i used to be and our relationship has never been better since I've been a christian. I don't like alot of what christians do and say, but as a believer I don't have any agenda to change culture or oppress and discriminate against people. Honestly I am weak and I do need God in my life but that's okay with me.You suggest your god doesn't deserve the hatred? If your god does exist, he clearly deserves a lot of hatred, since he is nothing but a source of hatred and absurdity and insanity.

If you have read your bible then you would know how much he hates at least 90% plus of his own creation, and how he enjoys seeing them suffer. It is quite clear in the bible too, he doesn't know much about the earth, since he mentions "the four corners of the earth" and what not, clearly indicating it is flat.

[Bik]

I was making the point of having a dream that is written in the bible before I read it. Sun darkening ........ etc. That's all and sorry for being snappy.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

No worries mate.

BTW a hell of a lot of things have changed around here since you were gone. For starters, now the usernames are all colored and shit. :D

[Bik]

It's not bad but I reckon Hillsong could make it look better. LOL

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

You mean by getting rich in the name of jesus? :)

[Bik]

They have adopted all the marketing techniques to make loads of cash.:(

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

All churches do this, but of course Hillsong is one of the big bullies out there. The other churches are little bullies, but many little bullies = lots of bullying.

I wouldn't have a problem if they didn't suck everybody into their ridiculous religious systems.

[SinisterDexter]

POE!!!!!!

[Bik]

Um....did some research on capsaicin. Interesting.

[hooa]

Ive always been fascinated by people who claim to have been atheists and then converted. I've researched it quite a bit and I dont believe such a person exists ...

(Unless you're Anthony Flew and start believing in creation when mental illness sets in)

How does a person go from understanding the natural origins of our universe and everything in it, to then dumbing down and believing the magic stuff? ...

I dont really believe you were an atheist, I think that you were just one of those people who didnt really care one way or the other ... Kind of like the Kirk Cameron type of ex atheist ... He thought he was an atheist because he didnt go to church ... He's a dickhead ...

Tell us ... what sort of an "outspoken atheist" were you? ...

[davo]

Hiya Bik :) Hope you enjoy your time here :)

It's unfortunate that we christians give Jesus such a bad name.

Yep. Tho there are heaps of people that do good things. Personally I like hobbits I reckon we could learn a lot from them.


I been a christian for 8 years and I get frustrated right at wing christians telling people how to live and what to think.

I get frustrated at right wingers, regardless :D


I grew up in a left wing atheist household and I was an outspoken atheist as a teenager and I rejected that right wing self righteous rubbish and I still do.

I grew up in a slightly to the right, slightly religious household. I rejected stuff because it just didn't make sense, or was not humanistic. depends on what it was.


When I was in my early twenties I wanted more out of life and I wanted answers.

Yep, tho I did this in my teens. Most teens want answers as anyone does. The problem is there isn't always answers to everything.


Being very anti amercian I almost went into a mosque.

Weird, that was the last thing I would have looked at. I wasn't anti-american tho, I had problems with some US politics, particularly foreigh policy .. but was never anti-american (tho the accent grated on me a lot from some friends I had with really strong accent ... but then again I have met Aussies with the same grating type accent ...)

I mean americans are just people, like you or I are people, yea?


But the more I read about Jesus and his compassion for the sick and the poor I developed a respect for him and I stopped saying his name as a swear word because he was good guy.

I don't use 'jesus' as a swear word, simply because there are better ones.


Cut a long story short I wanted to get baptized because I was convicted of my sin (yes I was a bad person that done alot of dumb things that I couldn't forgive myself for) and I walked in off the street as a chronic drug user, depressed and angry and met Jesus in the baptizism tank. It was the truth I was looking for and I had been completly forgiven of my sin and I knew God was real.

I suppose that is one way to deal with issues, looking for someone that will forgive you rather than restitution. Even better if they offer you a really good bribe, and threaten you with something if you don't too.


I left that place not knowing anyone but the love of Christ. Jesus instantly took away my drug addictions including cigarettes, swearing and gambling addiction, three days later my wife believed and Christ healed our broken relationship.

Are you saying you didn't sort out shit yourself? eh? I don't get it ... did you lose free will?


Christ heals the broken hearted and sets the captive free and that's who the real Jesus is.

Except for those 35,000 children under the age of 5 that die of starvation every day, he doesn't care enough to stop that does he?

Is he really magic or only part magic? Is he really omni-benevolent or does he let children starve to death when he could solve the issue?


He saved my life and gave me purpose. Christians need to read the stories about the sinful woman and the adultress woman and the prodigal son and truly understand the essense of God.:)

I found purpose in helping others, improving my and others lives. I never saw any jesus, nor needed one.

Why do you think he helps drug addicts and alchoholics etc .. but doesn't give a stuff about starving children?


Doesn't make sense to me, just sounds like a faith, one of many out there, helped you out of a bad time.

[davo]

Christians need to read the stories about the sinful woman and the adultress woman and the prodigal son and truly understand the essense of God.

oh I should mention, my favourite bit about your god is him ordering a fellow stoned to death for picking up sticks on the sabbath.

[hooa]

It's unfortunate that we christians give Jesus such a bad name.


I think that the Jesus character gives himself a bad name and Christians have been trying to make excuses for him ever since ...

What the heck is so good about Jesus anyway? ... This guy who, according to the Gospels, has super powers, would rather argue with Satan than do some good in the world ...
He lies ... He says that if I pray to god through him then he will do it .. ... John 14:13-14 ...
You know thats not true ... Oh but hang on ... Its only true if you attach a list of impossible conditions to it ... Right?

He doesnt teach about love, he just tells you who you should love .. Or Else ...

Jesus is not really someone I respect. He seems a tad confused ...

[hooa]

Not that Jesus really gives a darn, being dead for approx 2K years even if he was real back then.

and he better stay dead ... If he comes back I'll kill him again ...

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

hooa: He'll just raise from the dead again then. Of course, that depend... in the game Half Life 2 for example, you can kill the zombies by aiming a SMG (Sub-Machine-Gun) at them and firing, or throwing grenades at them. Perhaps this will work with the jesus too?

[hooa]

This is funny and I think you can download it for free ...
I like the first response in the comments ...


http://edge.newledger.com/2010/05/26/a-video-game-where-you-can-beat-up-jesus-hilariously-blasphemous/

[cyclist]

He doesnt teach about love, he just tells you who you should love .. Or Else ...

And here I was thinking that jesus teaches us to hate

Luke 14:26

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

James

[OzAtheist]

This is funny and I think you can download it for free ...
I like the first response in the comments ...


http://edge.newledger.com/2010/05/26/a-video-game-where-you-can-beat-up-jesus-hilariously-blasphemous/

Yes you can download it for free along with his other religious game "The Making of a Prophet", about Islam, along with heaps of other games this guy made from his site (http://www.mdickie.com/downloads.htm). Why you would I have no idea. :D

[Bik]

I remember being 10 years old at school during religious instruction (RI) as it was called back then, and the priest asked us to draw a picture of what we thought God would look like. I couldn't do it and when he asked to show my picture to the class I said to him I don't believe in God. The whole class freaked out and then the priest said that there are good people that don't believe in God, but he didn't believe it and I could tell he was lying.

I am the son of an strong left wing unionist shearer and all though Dad and I didn't have a close relationship I also fundamentally believed the same principles of justice and equality as my Dad and still do. I have always been deeply concerned and troubled by the state of the world and as a young boy I became very interested in the politics which I still get very passionate about. I would challenge people who believed God all of the time and would tell them it was all in their head and were being brainwashed.

But their is one thing I have learnt in this world that is good men are silenced so the wicked rule and when good men rise it only takes a generation for that good to come undone. It is the cycle of man, he cannot govern righteously and his lust for power corrupts him.

Now I do not want to preach because I know don't to hear it and that's fair, but one thing that I realized about myself that I also was no different than my fellow man and that corruption was also in my heart. Things I did in the past I could not forgive myself of nor could I move on as much as I tried, so in my travels as a researcher of many topics I was drawn to the words of John the Baptist. He said 'repent and be baptised for the remission of sins'.

The freedom that I received on that day (October 3rd 2001) I will never forget and that is why I am a believer. Now I am not your enemy because I don't mix the affairs of this world with my belief in God, but those right wing self righteous christians do and I tell you guys right now that I support your efforts to expose these judgmental hate filled people who have all sorts of warped agendas. I tried to do the same in the church but failed so I don't go there anymore.

I have read the things in the old testament that are definitely cruel and harsh and trying to explain it to atheists is difficult when in your mind God does not exist but you say God is wicked but the it is the reverse, it is us who are wicked. We think we know it all but we don't. We think we have the ability to be righteous but we don't. God has standards and we choose to ignore him at our own peril and become conceited in our own pride only to fail in our pursuit for independence. We separate ourselves from God. Jesus not only restores that but he showed us how to handle our enemies.

He taught that and eye for an eye is no longer and if a man strikes you on the right cheek offer him your left. This is the way of the Lord which so many christians do not understand. Jesus said whoever lives by the sword shall die by the sword and whoever takes captive shall be taken into captivity. I am not of this world anymore and either is the true kingdom of God, my duty is to find those that are lost and searching, not fight wars or debate issues such as abortion or immigration or even try and prove to atheists that God even exists. God is the one who humbles, calls and convicts not me.

So once again I am not your enemy and I am not offended by or afraid of you guys. I also understand why you feel threatened by those radical 'christians' because they are dangerous.

Ps. My anti-American attitude is because of US policy not the people themselves:)

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Tell me Bik,

If your god asked you to kill someone, would you do it?

[Darwinsbulldog]

Oh, well. Since we are on a preaching kick, I may as well preach about our good lord Bugs Bunny. The reality of Bugs Bunny. The real bugs himself. Bugs is good isn't he? Of course, Bugs is the one true god: the trinity of rabbit, carrot and ears. In fact, bugs is his OWN SON! How about them apples? Or should I say carrots. Anyway, I'd just like to say: "Hollowed be his Warren".
Of course, the devil: Mixy-Ma_Tottsies, is a very, very bad thing.
OK, I'm out! :p:rolleyes:

This is what your preaching sounds like to an atheist or skeptic, Bik. Truly.

[Ce4or]

Originally Posted by hooa
and he better stay dead ... If he comes back I'll kill him again ..You probably wouldn't have time, If Jesus came back the Christians would kill him, he would be too demanding and ask difficult questions for starters why they do not observe his religion why have they fore-saken Judaism and Catholics would be asked why they made idols of, and praise Jesus and Mary not the one god it self.
He'd better not return in the US as soon as he visited a homeless shelter or helped an aids victim or drug addict he'd be marked as a
" gardammned libural carmmunist" and obviously a false prophet
And even daddy wouldn't be able to bail him out if he attended a tea party rally and pleaded on behalf of the poor and those in need of shelter (refugees and immigrants).
Of course though If he happened to drive a car he would have all bumper stickers trumped; W.W.I.D. :)

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Oh, well. Since we are on a preaching kick, I may as well preach about our good lord Bugs Bunny. The reality of Bugs Bunny. The real bugs himself. Bugs is good isn't he? Of course, Bugs is the one true god: the trinity of rabbit, carrot and ears. In fact, bugs is his OWN SON! How about them apples? Or should I say carrots. Anyway, I'd just like to say: "Hollowed be his Warren".
Of course, the devil: Mixy-Ma_Tottsies, is a very, very bad thing.
OK, I'm out! :p:rolleyes:

This is what your preaching sounds like to an atheist or skeptic, Bik. Truly.damn heretics! Everybody knows Santa Claus is the truth and the way. Be good on Christmas everybody or else you will get a solid lump of fossil fuel.

Unfortunately for Santa Claus the increasing petrol prices increase the demand in lumps of fossil fuel, so we have unfortunately defected our ways and need to realize Santa loves all of us and doesn't mean us any harm.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

He taught that and eye for an eye is no longer and if a man strikes you on the right cheek offer him your left. This is the way of the Lord which so many christians do not understand. Jesus said whoever lives by the sword shall die by the sword and whoever takes captive shall be taken into captivity.Leviticus 26:29 - You shall eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters.

I am not of this world anymore and either is the true kingdom of God, my duty is to find those that are lost and searching...Got a satnav bro?

So once again I am not your enemy and I am not offended by or afraid of you guys. I also understand why you feel threatened by those radical 'christians' because they are dangerous.No, I am not threatened. Just disappointed that they do not understand the power of Santa Claus and his ways.


@Protium - I heard Pikkiwoki gets along well with Santa Claus too. :)

[atheist_angel]

Now I am not your enemy because I don't mix the affairs of this world with my belief in God, but those right wing self righteous christians do and I tell you guys right now that I support your efforts to expose these judgmental hate filled people who have all sorts of warped agendas. I tried to do the same in the church but failed so I don't go there anymore. [...] I am not of this world anymore and either is the true kingdom of God, my duty is to find those that are lost and searching, How would you feel if you drew someone into your religion and they ended up like one of those allegedly "warped" christians? :confused: But their is one thing I have learnt in this world that is good men are silenced so the wicked rule and when good men rise it only takes a generation for that good to come undone. It is the cycle of man, he cannot govern righteously and his lust for power corrupts him.

Now I do not want to preach because I know don't to hear it and that's fair, but one thing that I realized about myself that I also was no different than my fellow man and that corruption was also in my heart. You believe in hell, Bik?

[Logic please]

The freedom that I received on that day (October 3rd 2001) I will never forget and that is why I am a believer. Now I am not your enemy because I don't mix the affairs of this world with my belief in God, but those right wing self righteous christians do and I tell you guys right now that I support your efforts to expose these judgmental hate filled people who have all sorts of warped agendas. I tried to do the same in the church but failed so I don't go there anymore. (my emphasis)

Bik, while this looks like a laudable effort to maintain a "separation of church and state", I'm not sure I understand your comment. If your belief in your god doesn't "mix with the affairs of this world", then what is the point of your belief? If your religious beliefs aren't influencing your dealings with the "real" world, if they don't have practical application, then surely those beliefs are superfluous?

Based on your comments, your belief system seems to be a largely personal one.

[Bik]

What can I say. The things of the kingdom are not of this world nor the minds of men. The apostle Paul said that the gospel was foolishness to the Greeks. With all their philosophy, understanding and logic the gospel remained a mystery. I know this to be true because I,ve been on both sides.

[Xeno]

What can I say.Blather, apparently.*




* This will appear a foolishness to those whose philosophy, understanding and logic remain in the gospel, where none of the above are to be found.

[atheist_angel]

The things of the kingdom are not of this world nor the minds of men. Yeah I disagree with that. All fiction comes from the imagination of 'somebody'. A few people have asked you some questions. Are you 'intentionally' avoiding those questions? Surely You've seen the questions.

In addition to my own questions, I'm particularly interested in the one that Mr Black asked... Bik, why is Jesus real to you?

Does Jesus answer you with a voice? If so, is it inside or outside your head? Does Jesus tell you to do anything you would not have possibly thought of for yourself? What's his voice like? Care to give it a go, and try to answer? It's a good question. And it's a fair question.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

What can I say. The things of the kingdom are not of this world nor the minds of men. The apostle Paul said that the gospel was foolishness to the Greeks. With all their philosophy, understanding and logic the gospel remained a mystery. I know this to be true because I,ve been on both sides.Have you stoned any non-christians to death yet then? What about eating your own children if God gets a little pissy? Or even better - burning witches?

[Bik]

Well I can say that Paul's experience was similar to mine and I can relate to it. You might say it's a false account but still I relate to the story of his conversion. The night that I was baptized I'd walked in of the street as a man looking for God. Yes, I wanted to know I could be forgiven of my sins and know if God was real. I didn't go looking for friendship or counselling nor did I want someone to understand my situation. I had a born again transformation that night and I never been the same since. I was once lost but now I am found, I was blind but now I can see is most definitely my experience. I remember growing up and hearing those words and changing them to the Kevin Bloody Wilson version and having a laugh but the first time I sang that song in a church I rejoiced so much I cried.

After having this experience everyone was coming up to me and congratulating me but I just wanted to go home and soak up my new found freedom from my guilt and shame. I never thought it was possible to have what received that night. So Jesus did not directly speak to me that night like he spoke to Paul but the turning from his old ways were precisely the same. Now you will say I am foolish and indeed it is the case when considered with human eyes but I am grateful for the things given to me.

Jesus has not directly spoken to me.
God would not asked me to kill somebody.
I haven't stoned any non christians but I used to get stoned with a lot of them.

You have to understand that getting asked half a dozen questions at once can be a bit overwhelming and its hard to answer questions that feel like their designed to entrap or accuse like the killing a man question.

God never ordered anyone to eat children, he just said you will when things get 'pissy'. Why? Because that's what man is like.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Jesus has not directly spoken to me.How do you know he even exists then?
God would not asked me to kill somebody.If your god asked you to kill somebody (which he does quite frequently in the bible) then would you do it? Simple YES or NO will suffice.

I haven't stoned any non christians but I used to get stoned with a lot of them.Not much faith and loyalty there.

You have to understand that getting asked half a dozen questions at once can be a bit overwhelming and its hard to answer questions that feel like their designed to entrap or accuse like the killing a man question.Most of these questions are to get you to think mate. Not to "entrap" or "accuse" you of anything.

God never ordered anyone to eat children, he just said you will when things get 'pissy'. Why? Because that's what man is like.As Black says above:Bik, the kiddie-eating thing... do you know what we're even talking about? There is actually a bible passage where god instructs the Israelites to eat their kiddies in times of famine. (No, I'm not going to give you a reference. If you are going to be a believer, it would be better you be an informed one.)

[Bik]

Did God order man to eat their own children?

Lev 26.29 No
Deut 28.53 No
Deut 28.57 No
Jeremiah 19.9 Yes. 'I will cause them '
Zech 11.9. No
Isaiah 49.26 Technical No/Yes. Talking about those who oppress Israel, not an actual event.
Ezekiel 5.10 No
God said it through the profit Jeremiah because of Israel's disobedience.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

LOL - his "evidence" has just impeded his case:

Leviticus 26:29 - You shall eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters.

This profit Jeremiah made... sounds interesting. ;)

If your god asked you to kill someone then would you do it? Simple YES or No will sufice.

[Bik]

You shall do it is not an order. Jer 19.9 is way better ammo for you. Would you kill a christian if an atheist told you to? My answer is No.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

So you wouldn't kill anybody even if your god told you to do so?

[Bik]

Sorry for not giving you references. I'm not lying about them. Lol, you no want I mean by that statement seeing your atheists and all.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

If your god told you to kill someone then would you do it? Simple YES or NO will suffice.

[two dogs]

You shall do it is not an order.
...

According to section B.II. of the definitions of the word shall in the Oxford English Dictionary (the 20 volume fucker):5. In commands or instructions. a. In the second person, equivalent to an imperative.

Chiefly in Biblical language, of Divine commandments, rendering the jussive future of the Heb. and Vulgate. (In OE. the imperative is used in the ten commandments.)

So, the Ten Commandments aren't orders?

[Xeno]

After you have actually answered Croc's question, Bik, then I will be interested to know your decision rule for whether any given passage in the bible is true, symbolic or false.

However, please give Croc a straight answer first.

These are not trick questions. Anyone here could answer them. Any person should be able to do so, wouldn't you think?

[Bik]

So you wouldn't kill anybody even if your god told you to do so?

Not a baited question. Could see this a mile away. I am limited to say yes or no. Although I don't believe God would ask me that because murder has nothing to do with the gospel.

Would God directly speak to me? Probably No, maybe, I don't know.

Now I've just opened up another can of worms. It's like flogging a dead horse. It's obvious you guys froth at fantasy island and I would too if I was an atheist, but seriously this will go on and on and I'm not about to change my beliefs and either are you guys. I know I'm the one who keeps on replying because I can't help myself but I'm out. I think;)

[Bik]

I said I'm not lying. But if the bible is not true than I am. Get it?

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Not a baited question. Could see this a mile away. I am limited to say yes or no. Although I don't believe God would ask me that because murder has nothing to do with the gospel.

Would God directly speak to me? Probably No, maybe, I don't know.

Now I've just opened up another can of worms. It's like flogging a dead horse. It's obvious you guys froth at fantasy island and I would too if I was an atheist, but seriously this will go on and on and I'm not about to change my beliefs and either are you guys. I know I'm the one who keeps on replying because I can't help myself but I'm out. I think;)No need for any of that waffle mate. Simple YES or NO will suffice.

No it is not a "baited question" or whatever; it is a question designed to make you think about what you really believe.

[Bik]

Don't worry about it I was just trying to be funny. Protuim was funnier anyhow.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Excellent Bik! I didn't exactly get the joke, but I presume we can go back to being a little more serious this time!
Care to answer my question this time?

[Bik]

Okay. No

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Thank you for being honest this time Bik - now if you are not going to kill someone even if your god told you, is it fair to say that even you have the mental capacity and braveness to go against your god and you are not 100% faithful to him?

[Bik]

Is that the next question. I never thought you ask that. You have tricked me.

[Xeno]

Bik, first you said your god would not ask you to kill someone, then you said no.

The god of the bible does, most definitely, ask various people to kill other people, and usually they do. There are many examples. That god even gets totally pissed off when his order is disobeyed and arranges for one of his prophets to do the requested killing after which god is satisfied.

Therefore, Croc's question was reasonable. In answering you made a human ethical judgement which is contrary to the explicit moral code of the biblical god. Perhaps, instead, you have a god of your own which is not in the bible, as Mr Black discusses. Perhaps, instead, you are just another ethical human being who rightly ignores the bible but does not wish to recognise the fact.

[ClayMonk]

Hey Bik, I understand the feeling; being bombarded by a flurry of questions and to be honest I think half the people do it for their own amusement but the other half genuinely want you to think about your faith.

Can I ask you a question; why did you come on here?

[RealityRules]

.. being bombarded by a flurry of questions and to be honest I think half the people do it for their own amusement ..

Seems to be the case

[Xeno]

Bik, now that you have answered Croc to say you would not kill, and we know this is contrary to the god of the bible, the question arises how you decide which part of the bible is true (do not kill, or the good old golden rule), which part is symbolic, as you interpreted some verses earlier, and which is false, like kill on request.

What is your decision rule? How do you know, please?

[Bik]

God no longer deals with the nation of Israel. Israel was supposed to be a nation that followed God's laws. Instead they followed after the practices and religions of other nations which had warned them not to or terrible things would happen and it did, Israel was taken into captivity and their cities were burned.

Yes God did wipe out other nations for the state of Israel, because as far as God was concerned the nations were ungodly. Though as time went on Israel too ignored God as well and God even made the statement that Israel's sin was worse than the surrounding nations.

The old covenant has been replaced with the new. God no longer deals with his people in the realm of nations and borders. Nor does he require the temple system governed by the levites. Instead Jesus gave all men the opportunity to know God's laws. At the same time he most definitely taught peace. In fact Israel was under roman occupation at the time and Jesus made it clear that his goal was not to rebel against their occupation but seek after God instead. Their is no killing in the name of Jesus done in the new testament. Peter had swipe at a pharisee when Jesus was arrested with his sword but Jesus rebuked him for it. Like I have stated before Jesus taught that an eye for eye was no longer. Matt 5 38. Then he goes on to say 'But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek , turn the other to him also". Matt 5 39.

He goes on to say in verse 43, 'You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy'. But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those that curse you , and do good to those who hate you, and pray for those that despitefully use you and persecute you.

[Xeno]

My question, Bik, was how do you know? Are you able to answer that without resorting either to circular argument or to unsupported personal belief?

[Bik]

So I suppose if I was an Israelite and God ordered me to kill and I refused then I am unfaithful. But in the new covenant God would not ask me to kill.

[Worldslaziestbusker]

So I suppose if I was an Israelite and God ordered me to kill and I refused then I am unfaithful. But in the new covenant God would not ask me to kill.

Hello Bik
The god posited in the Bible is almighty, and could therefore choose to do whatever it pleased. This could include ordering you to do things that would be considered crimes in our community, but the question isn't about whether or not such a command is likely, but how willing you would be to respond. Thankfully, it's a hypothetical question for most folks, but examples of people responding to what they think are divine commands show us that some people are absolutely committed to their belief, to the extent that they will kill others. I'm always glad to meet theists who balk at the idea, as it shows they put societal ethics ahead of religious morality, but it does illustrate the limit of their committment to their faith.
As Claymonk pointed out, the question is geared toward encouraging theists to think about their faith. If you can't contemplate killing under the second covenant, how about keeping slaves? Jesus advised slaves to obey their masters as they would God. I see Jesus' failure to condemn slavery as a ethical error, a tacit endorsement of slavery. If the second covenant says it's okay, are you personally comfortable with the concept of slavery? Keep in mind that millions of people are still being treated as chattels. Do you endorse this? Would you advise them to obey their masters as Jesus would?
WLB

[Bik]

No I don't believe in keeping slaves, and Jesus does not necessarily endorsed it, that is your conclusion. Once again Jesus' focuses on the state of the heart and not our worldy position in life. If you look at Israel at the time you could say that the whole nation was in slavery because of the roman occupation, and even today most people are slaves to the bank. I am not comfortable with slavery but if I want to serve God than I deny myself and follow, which is like slavery. Though it is paradox, if I serve Christ as a bond slave then I am truly free. I've experience this all the time. It just another mystery of the Kingdom of God.

[Bik]

Jesus sets the captive free. This is a fact in my life. I was captive to many things before I was a Godo. He came and healed me. Pick me up from the bottom of the pit and restored me to new life. I lived in bondage.

[Worldslaziestbusker]

Hello Bik
You take a slightly differnt line to most, but your statement about cultural context is sufficiently similar to the response of other Christians that I will, in turn, use my standard re-response.
I think your personal morality is derived from the society you grew up in. You balk at the examples of religious actions that go against that morality because society has moved on, whereas the Bible is still a series of stories from another culture in a far removed time.

Perhaps we can find an example of biblical mandate, free of cultural loopholes, by which to measure your committment to your faith: The story of the fig tree reveals Jesus as petulant and needlessly quick to anger. If a soiety can be judged by how it treats its weakest members, what are we to make of someone who destroys a non-sentient tree for not producing the fruit he wanted, even though it was not the season for that fruit. There is no changing cultural context applicable to whether or not fruit trees bear fruit out of season. Why was Gentle Jesus (meak and mild) such a jerk in this instance?
Do you endorse the blighting of fruit trees that don't provide fruit on demand?
WLB

[Bik]

The example of the withered fig tree is that of empty worship at the temple and faith in God. The tree bears leaves and promises fruit but does not provide (we may look good on the outside but it is what is inside that counts). The withering of the tree is what will become empty worship, the one who offers it will not only bear no fruit but also will eventually die spiritually. Also it is an example of faith in God. As for whether or not I endorse it, I've never thought about that aspect of the story. What can I say, fear God and live.

In revelation it talks about the new Jerusalem which implies God has got forever in mind.
Heb 8 and 9 covers the end of the old and the start of the new, Especially Heb 8 7-13.

[Worldslaziestbusker]

The tree had no choice in the matter, yet it was punished. Either the analogy comparing the tree's barrenness to choices people make is flawed and therefore pointless or Jesus was being petty and childish.
WLB

[Worldslaziestbusker]

As for whether or not I endorse it, I've never thought about that aspect of the story. What can I say, fear God and live.



Now's your chance.
Live. I like my pointless aphorism better.

[Bik]

Not just anyone making choices, those who claim to be God's people. It was symbolic for the disciples to understand the point he was making, but your right the tree didn't have a say in the matter.

Sorry for not acknowledging your Hello. Hi.

[Xeno]

No I don't believe in keeping slaves, and Jesus does not necessarily endorsed it, that is your conclusion.How do you know?

You have yet to answer my question (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showpost.php?p=141951&postcount=130).

Your avoidance suggests exactly what WLB said and was raised earlier, that you are applying modern human ethics and attributing that to god.

This is well known behaviour, tested by Epley et al. Your god thinks what you think, and when you change your thinking, lo and behold, so does your god.

[Bik]

I didn't avoid it. Jesus taught to resist violent reaction which I clearly stated in my post. That is how I know.

[Xeno]

I didn't avoid it. Jesus taught to resist violent reaction which I clearly stated in my post. That is how I know.You most certainly avoided it because I asked your decision rule, and you told us your decision. That is, you told us what you [claim to] know, not how.

You took one part of one part of the bible and used that to overrule all the other parts. That is a human action, Bik, because you have no biblical justification for ignoring most of it. Your jesus himself said he did not come to change one word of the law. You have merrily interpreted to your own ends, not only about your beliefs but about what god thinks of Jews and others, on no basis other than a personal whim.

Can you offer us a cogent decision rule why it is logically and evidentially sound (rather than human) to pick one cherry from one bunch of cherries on one branch of one tree? Let alone that the book itself was made up afterwards.

[Bik]

Jesus overruled eye for eye law and love your neighbour, hate your enemy mentality, not me, and there is no way for me to answer you logically or evidentially on how I know.

1 Cor 22-23. For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Come on Bik it isn't that hard:My question, Bik, was how do you know? Are you able to answer that without resorting either to circular argument or to unsupported personal belief?You answered my question quite honestly, now have a go at this one please.

[Worldslaziestbusker]

Jesus overruled eye for eye law and love your neighbour, hate your enemy mentality, not me, and there is no way for me to answer you logically or evidentially on how I know.
.

So, you concede that the Bible carries contradictions that make it an unreliable source document and admit that you choose to adhere to the parts that you like and ignore the parts you disagree with?
I am not trying to mock you (though I reserve the right to do so if your response warrants mockery). I had to admit these things once and it wasn't easy. If you are honest and carry the logic forward, perhaps you'll see why atheists find Christian doctrine sufficiently incoherent that it can be rejected.
I don't care what you believe. You can ignore my arguments entirely and carry on with your faith, but I hope your interactions on the forum will give you a greater understanding of why many atheists feel justified in calling for greater secularity in our society.
WLB

[Bik]

I will tell you truthfully, if you think I am worried that I cannot answer you factually then you are mistaken. Like I said in a previous post it is not through me that God reveals himself to.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Just answer the questions mate. I doubt anybody cares whether it was through Loch Ness, Big Foot, Jesus, or IPv6 - so long as there's an answer mate.

Start with Xeno's question first:Bik, now that you have answered Croc to say you would not kill, and we know this is contrary to the god of the bible, the question arises how you decide which part of the bible is true (do not kill, or the good old golden rule), which part is symbolic, as you interpreted some verses earlier, and which is false, like kill on request.

What is your decision rule? How do you know, please?There's no "violent action" or "violent reaction" or anything to do with "violent" from anybody here.

You answered my question, so you should be able to answer Xeno's question.

[Bik]

If God displays himself as blood thirsty and vengeful in one part and then loving and compassionate in another then, yes most definitely it would be a contradiction, though we men are much the same, but I don't ignore parts of it. I concede that I may interpret with bias to suit my own beliefs, but again we can be all be guilty of that. Like I said Jesus overruled violence towards others and teaches to let evil men have their way, which by the way is hard saying. His passive resistance teaching definitely fits in with my world view.

He said 'fear not him who can kill the body, but he that can kill the body and take the soul to hell'. So yes I fear God and his judgement, but that fear only brought to a place of humility and repentance then I received a love like no other. Again a paradox.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Indeed it is. Fortunately Bik is probably not a Christian because he doesn't follow the whole thing obviously.
Old testament vs new testament stuff - read Matthew 5:17-20 for details.

[Bik]

Who did the law of moses apply to?

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

You tell me mate, you're the believer.
In fact, while you are at it, tell me what the Law of Moses is according to you.

[Bik]

Exactly, I am the believer. I don't have any grounds to judge you or the choices you make. But if my brother sins then it is my responsibility to correct him. Leviticus was for Israel just as Jesus is for the people of God. He fulfills the law.

That has been my point right from the start and that is why I don't like those so called christians who think they have some god given right to persecute others. They are mistaken.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

So what makes you more correct then those other guys? And if you are going to say you've been guided by the Holy Spirit or something similar, then I can assure you many of those other guys (Fred Phelps, Pat Robertson, Benny Hinn, Adolf Hitler and those guys) have also been guided by the spirit. So they say. ;)

[Bik]

Because I get pissed off with it as much as you guys. You know how ignorant and hate filled these christians are. Their beliefs support your arguments.

[Goldenmane]

If God displays himself as blood thirsty and vengeful in one part and then loving and compassionate in another then, yes most definitely it would be a contradiction, though we men are much the same, but I don't ignore parts of it. I concede that I may interpret with bias to suit my own beliefs, but again we can be all be guilty of that. Like I said Jesus overruled violence towards others and teaches to let evil men have their way, which by the way is hard saying. His passive resistance teaching definitely fits in with my world view.

So... gone into any houses of worship and beaten the fuck out of them for making money out of religion yet? Don't forget, you'll need to make a whip.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/tantrum.html

Do you hate your family?
Luke 14:26 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/lk/14.html#26)

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Sure, but that doesn't tell us how you know that you have it all correct, and those other guys have it all incorrect.

Given the violent and hatred-inducing nature of christianity though I suspect the other guys have it right. :)

[Bik]

I don't want to repeat myself, but Jesus taught against aggression and judgement. So thats the Jesus I follow. If other christians cannot understand this even when I tell them, what can be done? I don't know.

He used the whip for the animals and you have to give credit for what he did. His zeal was for God not money making.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

So I guess I can give him credit for giving me a mental disability/disorder right?
What a fucking prick he is!
I think you should read the bible again carefully.
Oh yeah, and what about the Pope and Pat Robertson then?
They are rich bastards. Making money for jesus I presume.

[Bik]

No. For themselves.

[Bik]

C'mon Mr Black, you cannot put me in the same basket as the Pope and Pat Robertson. I am not responsible for their actions and I will not be held accountable. This is a fallacy.

[Bik]

Had to get my daughter from School. Public not 'christian'.

The acts that the Pope do and Pat Robertson are not acts of of true members, no. But it is not like I'm avoiding to be named among those people so I don't look like one of them. If I met the Pope or Pat Robertson I would tell them to repent and stop using the name Jesus for money and power. The blind leads the blind.

[Bik]

If Jesus turned up today he wouldn't go to an atheist convention, he'd go to Hillsong and rebuke them for the lack of understanding and the deceitfulness of riches.

[Darwinsbulldog]

If Jesus turned up today he wouldn't go to an atheist convention, he'd go to Hillsong and rebuke them for the lack of understanding and the deceitfulness of riches.
How would you know what someone would do or not do? :p

[Bik]

Fair enough. Though he purposely stayed in Israel to speak to his own. Apart from the Samaritan woman.

[Xeno]

I don't want to repeat myself, but Jesus taught against aggression and judgement. So thats the Jesus I follow. If other christians cannot understand this even when I tell them, what can be done? I don't know.

He used the whip for the animals and you have to give credit for what he did. His zeal was for God not money making.

And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen. [my emphasis - X]How do you manage to read this to say that the scourge was not used on people but only on animals, other than through personal fantasy, Bik? What is so hot about scourging animals anyway? It would get the bastard locked up today and you know it. Do you support scourging animals or is your god overridden yet again by your human ethics?

and there is no way for me to answer you logically or evidentially on how I know.I consider that the answer to my question, that Bik does not have an answer other than what he personally believes, with not a fairy in sight until Bik wants to use it to justify whatever he dreams up.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

C'mon Mr Black, you cannot put me in the same basket as the Pope and Pat Robertson. I am not responsible for their actions and I will not be held accountable. This is a fallacy.Maybe not, but the point is that members of your faith are doing this. They are no "falser" than your average christian and in fact, there is a good chance (given the violent hatred-promoting nature of christianity) that they are following it more vigorously than you are.

[Bik]

NKJ, NIV, AMP, NLT all say he made a whip out of chords or ropes and it does not imply that he whipped people. If you want to make me or Jesus to be evil, then go right ahead if thats what justifies your position.

[Bik]

Well it's been a long day and there's no way I'm gonna do it again tomorrow. So I'm out. It's been interesting.

Every Monday night I train (boxing, weights, etc). I do this with other believers and ex-church goers. We also train with unbelievers. These men of young and old come on to our territory, and we encourage them and treat them with respect as fellow human beings. If a situation arises we do share the gospel with them. I tell right now that there are blokes there have who rejected Christ but still come to training and we still treat them with the same respect and honour that all men deserve. Its not lukewarm on any level, just a desire to give instead of take.

I have not judged your character or treated you with disrespect. I did to you Croc once and I apologized. You could be my neighbour and I would not disrespect or judge because you are an atheist. Unlike other christians I am able to live peace with my fellow man. I hope you guys could treat me the same way.

see ya.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

I don't like to keep promoting my own threads more than once or twice, but I feel it is justified in this case.

You are NOT a Christian if you answer NO to ANY of the following questions

My justification in this particular instance is that it is heavily related to the "no true scotsman" that Black pointed out - where you are suggesting that the power-hungry folk are "not true christian" and are "not following the bible" etc. Why not have a look at the bits you are not following, and then think about why you do not follow the bits without bringing god or prophets; bring in logic, thoughts, and reasoning and ethics instead.

That is also what the "if your god asked you to kill someone..." question was on about too; and Xeno has pointed out a lot of times that you are follow the entire bible because your human ethics gets in the way.

Just something you may want to think about. I used to be a muslim. I live in a family who seems to think that their sect (dawoodi bohra) is the only true muslim sect and the only true one serving allah. They are the ones who, like you with those other christians, don't like a lot of what those other muslims are doing.

Unfortunately, they will not think more than zero times about their faith and how harmful and hateful it is.

By the way if you have apologized for whatever wrong you may have done to me, eg. showing disrespect, I will readily accept the apology without question. I've forgotton, and we can forget.

[Xeno]

NKJ, NIV, AMP, NLT all say he made a whip out of chords or ropes and it does not imply that he whipped people."does not imply"? What, now you not only pick and choose interpretations of picked verses but you want to pick your bible version and ignore the rest? Here are your actual picks.
When He had made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen
14 In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money.

15 So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle
14 In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money.

15 So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle;
In the Temple area he saw merchants selling cattle, sheep, and doves for sacrifices; he also saw dealers at tables exchanging foreign money. 15 Jesus made a whip from some ropes and chased them all out of the Temple.[<-- full stop] He drove out the sheep and cattle
Meanwhile, the commonly accepted ESV says In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers sitting there. 15And making a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen.Is "all" inconvenient for you? Do conjunctions and prepositions cause you undue pain? Having trouble stopping at a stop? Seriously, Bik, your protests and reinterpretations for convenience look ridiculous. The bloke had a whip of small cords and he chased a horde of people and animals out with, what, the whip tucked away behind his left ear?*

If you want to make me or Jesus to be evil, then go right ahead if thats what justifies your position.I have made no attempt to make you out to be evil. Croc has shown your jesus is an inconsistent fiction. Actually, you have shown us that yourself.

What various of us have suggested, adducing considerable evidence now, is that you make it all up as you go along, cherry-picking on no basis you can justify, and admitting that you have neither logic nor evidence to support you. That is the same basis on which people fly into buildings. Your saving grace is that you make sure you ignore your god whenever it is sensible to do so, other than when you try to shove this personal fantasy at other people.

*I suspect the story is an invention anyway but it is Bik who assumes its truth, on his personal interpretation.

[Logic please]

Hi Bik, unfortunately I missed all the discussion today. I posted this question (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showpost.php?p=141643&postcount=88) yesterday, and I am still interested in your answer:

Bik, while this looks like a laudable effort to maintain a "separation of church and state", I'm not sure I understand your comment. If your belief in your god doesn't "mix with the affairs of this world", then what is the point of your belief? If your religious beliefs aren't influencing your dealings with the "real" world, if they don't have practical application, then surely those beliefs are superfluous?

Based on your comments, your belief system seems to be a largely personal one.

It's not intended to trap you, but to encourage searching thinking and analysis about belief, as you characterised it in your post. :) Feel free to clarify, if I have misread your comment.

[DanDare]

Dare I say it, cherry-bikking.
Groan.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by Bik http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?p=142096#post142096)
NKJ, NIV, AMP, NLT all say he made a whip out of chords or ropes and it does not imply that he whipped people.


Umm,well actually it implies exactly that.To 'imply' means to suggest,without being explicit.

To infer is to conclude and is explicit.

Look at a plan of the temple of Jerusalem. The people mentioned were in the open part of the temple complex,not in the temple itself.They served crucial functions: :exchanging say Roman coins with human/animal figures for shekels,without, to buy animals for sacrifice.Such animals needed to be without blemish,and were sold in the complex.

Had Jesus behaved as the Gospels claim, he would have been arrested by the temple guards,or simply ejected from the complex.

[Justtristo]

A very belated welcome from myself to you Bik,

I have to admit I have had a lot happen to me in my life with psychological issues and various stuff ups. I have realized I have screwed up and I need to be a less self-centred, selfish person. However I rejected Christianity among other things, because the bible says we cannot be good unless god helps us, I beg to disagree I have changed for the better and more godly as you would see it without any divine help, just sheer will power.

Also I will admit a man named Jesus of Nazareth likely existed (others here would disagree). However I will readily admit the gospels add a lot of embellishments particularly from cults around in the first centuries CE in the Mediterranean world (including Dionysus and Mithras). I believe without those embellishments Jesus was just another first century Jewish prophet and messianic claimant who among preaching the immediate arrival of the rule of god (Kingdom of God), he regarded us gentiles as dogs. Indeed the gospels of Mark and Matthew mentioned Jesus called Gentiles dogs.

Mark 7:24-37


From there he set out and went away to the region of Tyre. He entered a house and did not want anyone to know he was there. Yet he could not escape notice, but a woman whose little daughter had an unclean spirit immediately heard about him, and she came and bowed down at his feet. Now the woman was a Gentile, of Syrophoenician origin. She begged him to cast the demon out of her daughter. He said to her, ‘Let the children be fed first, for it is not fair to take the children’s food and throw it to the dogs.’ But she answered him, ‘Sir,* (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29;) even the dogs under the table eat the children’s crumbs.’ Then he said to her, ‘For saying that, you may go—the demon has left your daughter.’ So she went home, found the child lying on the bed, and the demon gone.


Matthew 15:21-28


Jesus left that place and went away to the district of Tyre and Sidon. Just then a Canaanite woman from that region came out and started shouting, ‘Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is tormented by a demon.’ But he did not answer her at all. And his disciples came and urged him, saying, ‘Send her away, for she keeps shouting after us.’ He answered, ‘I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.’ But she came and knelt before him, saying, ‘Lord, help me.’ He answered, ‘It is not fair to take the children’s food and throw it to the dogs.’ She said, ‘Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.’ Then Jesus answered her, ‘Woman, great is your faith! Let it be done for you as you wish.’ And her daughter was healed instantly.

[Seamus]

I have realized I have screwed up and I need to be a less self-centred, selfish person.

WHY? Is it causing you distress or hindering your life in some way?

Perhaps concentrate on being less transparently selfish, like most other human beings.:p

[Justtristo]

WHY? Is it causing you distress or hindering your life in some way?

Perhaps concentrate on being less transparently selfish, like most other human beings.:p

It was indeed hindering my life and led me into trouble of the legal sort.

[Seamus]

It was indeed hindering my life and led me into trouble of the legal sort.


Ah. Well,in that case,probably a good idea to modify your BEHAVIOUR. Internal changes to feelings,beliefs and attitudes are much harder to accomplish on demand,and I think rare.

Hypocritical? Of course;hypocrisy is part of the human condition, but only really a problem when transparent.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Hi Bik, what interpretation of the bible do you follow and how do you know it is correct?

BTW might I suggest using Notepad to draft long posts? I use this technique a lot and it works well, especially should your connection fuck up or something.

[Centauri]

God no longer deals with the nation of Israel.

How do you know that?


Yes God did wipe out other nations for the state of Israel, because as far as God was concerned the nations were ungodly.


How do you know that?


God no longer deals with his people in the realm of nations and borders.

How do you know that?


Nor does he require the temple system governed by the levites.


How do you know that?

Instead Jesus gave all men the opportunity to know God's laws

How do you know that this 'Jesus' ever even existed?

Truth is, you don't know any of this stuff. You're just operating on blind faith, and deluding yourself into thinking it's the truth. It's time to put away your imaginary friend and start living in the real world.

[simonecuttlefish]

It's the evangelicals that are creepy. The problem I see is the literalistic interpretation of the books. I have no idea why people would try to think of a perfect, divine, unfathomably magnificent essence of perfection, then say that the world is completely broken, and that humans are deserving of damnation before they are even born, and the universe is so perverted it is beyond salvage, tainted by corruption and a bitter disappointment to the super-dude, and THEN think a bunch of primitive illiterates somehow had the language to convey it all for generations in a perfect form as they perceived it to be. Why do literalistic cults try to stuff what they claim is the divinely perfect, into stories about what they believe as perverted (the world), as word/thought/ perfect?

This drives them to "altering the world" to gods plan, whatever they assume that to be, and try to legally legislate that everyone else has to conform to their intellectually retarded (not mentally) demands, and bow to their one dimensional philosophies.

I feel there are fundamental problems with the whole Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Islam and Christianity), (I blame the Zoroastrians for that:) ) shallowness of absolute good vs absolute evil, and nothing in between ideology, as philosophically and intellectually retarding, but it must be people's right to choose that, not the basis for enforced adherence.

[Darwinsbulldog]

It's the evangelicals that are creepy. The problem I see is the literalistic interpretation of the books. I have no idea why people would try to think of a perfect, divine, unfathomably magnificent essence of perfection, then say that the world is completely broken, and that humans are deserving of damnation before they are even born, and the universe is so perverted it is beyond salvage, tainted by corruption and a bitter disappointment to the super-dude, and THEN think a bunch of primitive illiterates somehow had the language to convey it all for generations in a perfect form as they perceived it to be. Why do literalistic cults try to stuff what they claim is the divinely perfect, into stories about what they believe as perverted (the world), as word/thought/ perfect?

This drives them to "altering the world" to gods plan, whatever they assume that to be, and try to legally legislate that everyone else has to conform to their intellectually retarded (not mentally) demands, and bow to their one dimensional philosophies.

I feel there are fundamental problems with the whole Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Islam and Christianity), (I blame the Zoroastrians for that:) ) shallowness of absolute good vs absolute evil, and nothing in between ideology, as philosophically and intellectually retarding, but it must be people's right to choose that, not the basis for enforced adherence.

Strangely, I feel a sort of admiration for the literalistists. They reject every damn thing, so they are at least consistent. Of course, they spin off into their own little imaginary universe. But there delusions are pretty easy to demonstrate as wrong to the general public, or even a child.

Much more insidious and hard to address are the "rational" or even scientific faith-heads. Scientist that do great, even brilliant work. People will almost inevitably think that because they do good science, that they may be making sense when they talk about god??

Ayala, Miller, or Collins presents a paper at a sci conf. "Orson's" all round. Clap, clap clap....

On the weekend: [The MC at a meeting notes] Here with us today to talk about "Darwin & Intelligent Design" is Fransico J. Ayala, who is University professor and Donald Bren Professor Of Biological Sciences, Ecology, and Evolutionary Biology, and Professor of Philosophy, at the University of California, Urvine. Author of dozens of research articles in evolutionary genetics, he is also a leader in the religion-science field and recipient of the dozens of international medals and degrees, including the 2001 National Science Medal of Science. .

He was also a priest and a Templeton prize winner.

Now check this out:-

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/religion/faith/statement_01.html

[QUOTE]The second consideration is that science is a very successful way of knowing, but not the only way. We acquire knowledge in many other ways, such as through literature, the arts, philosophical reflection, and religious experience.

Suddenly, the steely-eyed missile-man cites religious experience as a way of knowing? Seriously! WTF?

[wolty]

C'mon bik. Give us something. Anything.

[Fiery]

Sign outside of Bik's church.

http://cheezpictureisunrelated.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/129089316108212024.jpg

Hi Bik! we can see you checking this forum. Try a reply! Go on, Jesus would want you to. Think of all the people here in need of hearing the "good news".

[nibble]

Unfortunately Bik the whole thing is starting to unravel. More and more people are questioning and more importantly, can question without fear of persecution. Open debates are consistently exposing the fraud and there is very little argument other than a purely faith based one to support your cause.

The question is, do you prefer to live in pursuit of painful truth or do you prefer to live in blissful ignorance of illusion.

Personally I'm a red pill person as opposed to a blue one !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Fiery: that's no explanations inside the church. Outside the church on the other hand...

[Lord Blackadder]

Bik, FFS, stop lurking and post something. You obviously want to, as you keep hanging around here. So post, fer Christ's sake. The bloody suspense is killing me!

Or so help me Pikiwoki, I will be forced to post kittehs. With pancakes on their head.

[wolty]

The bloody suspense is killing me!




Hehehehe, damn funny LBA. :D

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Now it is time for something relevant:
http://www.theniftyfiles.com/niftiness/blasphemy.jpg
Not pancakes but close enough!

[Fiery]

Are they still talkiin' about me?

...

How 'bout now?

.....

And now?

....

Ohh!!!!! I wonder if they've said anything new?

...

Now?

....

*sigh* yep. they still love me and want me.

.....

ohhhh look now they're squirming with anticipation.

...

[Seamus]

Personally I'm a red pill person as opposed to a blue one !!!!!!!!!!!!!

I take a plethora of pills.They're mainly white,of different sizes,so I don't get them confused. Just as well, I'd probably die if I ever did.One is a pleasant shad of burnt orange,but no red or blue ones.:rolleyes:

[wolty]

Hi Bik.

[Annie]

Oh FFS! Ive tried, Ive really tried to be Bik free, but c'mon this is ridiculous. @ Bik, Speak already or ride off into the sunset. You don't even have to log in. Just lurk without tormenting us all by logging in wearing your lovely shade of ornage. Whatever.......Make a decision. It's not that hard.
Yes this is forum and what you are reading is text on your little screen, but real people made that so.
Excuse me while I run away to chew my nails down to my elbow.

[Fiery]

Bik... is busy.
http://www.faithmouse.com/giclee_pancake_pastoral.jpg

[wolty]

Hi Bik.

[Onlyatheory?]

Hi Bik and Wolty;)

[wolty]

Hiya Oat. Hope you are ok. :)

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Are Bik, tum kya hai? :confused:

[wolty]

Hi croc.

[Onlyatheory?]

Hiya Oat. Hope you are ok. :)

All good, mate. Have read a fair bit of this thread..............less OK than I was:)
Oh yeah, hi Croc.

This thread seems a bit better with some woo-less salutations and niceties, eh?

Now, I will finish reading this thread

[wolty]

Hi Bik. :)

[Darwinsbulldog]

Hmmm..., almost tempted to be a sock puppet of Mr Bik, good for a laff! :):)

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Hi Bik,

Do you realize there are other threads in this forum? In fact, if you have a look, there are all sorts of threads!

Some are closed, but that's OK - there are many others that are open 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Feel free to check out the Jailbird thread while you're at it.

A great thread to read, which is awesome, and just deserves a promotion, is wolty's list - hah! gotta love that list! So witty that wolty is!

You just gotta read that one!

Yours truly,

- The monster who lives under your bed Crocodile

[Lord Blackadder]

☻/
/▌
/ \
Bik, Bob says, "Hi!"

[davo]

That's right the Christians took saturnalia over with pope Julius I in 350CE

... And made it into a shopping event

[davo]

Jeremiah 10:2-4: "Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not."

You got a 'christmas tree' Bik?

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Hi Bik, I was wondering if you can tell me about the old jesus. What's he like? Does he enjoy torturing people as much as this new guy does?

I was wondering, if he's any better, can we have him back? This new one is a prick!

[Senexis]

Mr Black, do you have a bigger, better-resolution version of your avatar?

;)

[Bik]

Jeremiah 10:2-4: "Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not."

You got a 'christmas tree' Bik?

Hi everyone.

You're barking up the wrong tree (lol), I despise Christmas and it's pagan origins. Just another example of men creating their own image and representation of God. So you won't get a merry christmas from me, but you can have this.

A fool has said in his heart there is no God

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Ahem... Perhaps you should realize that you guys were the ones who hijacked the Saturnalia festival.

I bet you guys hijacked Easter too.

Tell me, where does it mention Christmas or Easter in the bible then?

[Bik]

Ahem... Perhaps you should realize that you guys were the ones who hijacked the Saturnalia festival.

I bet you guys hijacked Easter too.

Tell me, where does it mention Christmas or Easter in the bible then?

It doesn't. My point exactly.

I've gone back over the post and had a good laugh. I even felt a little affection from you guys.

[Loki]

Just another example of men creating their own image and representation of God.

Exactly, man creates god.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

While I can't work out about the affection bit but I must ask, exactly what do you believe in? You present yourself as a not-so-christian here.

Why do you identify yourself as christian?

[Bik]

Exactly, man creates god.

I agree with Phillip K Dick. Where can I flee from God's spirit even in times of unbelief.

The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.:eek:

[Bik]

While I can't work out about the affection bit but I must ask, exactly what do you believe in? You present yourself as a not-so-christian here.

Why do you identify yourself as christian?

Because I was apprehended by Jesus while searching for truth. He took away my sin(guilt and shame), took away my drug dependence, healed my marriage and gave purpose and freedom. It's hard for me not to identify myself as a believer in Jesus.

God forgives sin, that is why He's feared.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Because I was apprehended by Jesus while searching for truth. He took away my sin(guilt and shame), took away my drug dependence, healed my marriage and gave purpose and freedom. It's hard for me not to identify myself as a believer in Jesus.So do you know what is inside the bible or not? Without looking it up, can you tell me what Leviticus 26:29 says?

God forgives sin, that is why He's feared.I'm not afraid of him. If he can fuck up so badly that he creates sin and then forces everybody to do loads of complicated shit (eg. burning witches, stoning children, slavery, etc) to get his attention so he can forgive us from the sin he created, I don't think he's a very loving god.

[Atrax Robustus]

Because I was apprehended by Jesus while searching for truth. He took away my sin(guilt and shame), took away my drug dependence, healed my marriage and gave purpose and freedom. It's hard for me not to identify myself as a believer in Jesus.

Hi Bik - I've just finished poring my way through this thread - had lots to ask you then you posted this . . . another question then . . .

I have a colleague who has apparently been through similar tribulations and recovery similar to those you describe.

He attributes the turn-round in his misfortunes to Allah.

Can you see why you believers cause confusion here?

[Bik]

So do you know what is inside the bible or not? Without looking it up, can you tell me what Leviticus 26:29 says?

I'm not afraid of him. If he can fuck up so badly that he creates sin and then forces everybody to do loads of complicated shit (eg. burning witches, stoning children, slavery, etc) to get his attention so he can forgive us from the sin he created, I don't think he's a very loving god.

Well, when you have this desire that burns within and you cannot attain it from anything, not sex, not drugs, not money, but it eats away at you and you don't even know what it is, and you explore the hidden meanings in life desperately seeking reason and truth until one day everything that you desired in life is given to you in a heart beat and that thing that is given turns out to be the blood of Jesus and the knowledge of the Father in heaven and you can't believe it's true but it is because every moment is filled with peace and freedom, then you will know the Jesus that I know.

[Deanus-Maximus]

Well, when you have this desire that burns within and you cannot attain it from anything, not sex, not drugs, not money, but it eats away at you and you don't even know what it is, and you explore the hidden meanings in life desperately seeking reason and truth until one day everything that you desired in life is given to you in a heart beat and that thing that is given turns out to be the blood of Jesus and the knowledge of the Father in heaven and you can't believe it's true but it is because every moment is filled with peace and freedom, then you will know the Jesus that I know.
C'mon Bik, fair go. The only time theists will ever know true peace and freedom is in eternal death - when their consciousness no longer exists to be enslaved by fairy tales...:rolleyes:

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Well, when you have this desire that burns within and you cannot attain it from anything, not sex, not drugs, not money, but it eats away at you and you don't even know what it is, and you explore the hidden meanings in life desperately seeking reason and truth until one day everything that you desired in life is given to you in a heart beat and that thing that is given turns out to be the blood of Jesus and the knowledge of the Father in heaven and you can't believe it's true but it is because every moment is filled with peace and freedom, then you will know the Jesus that I know.If your god asked you to kill somebody then would you do it? Simple YES or NO will suffice.

BTW You still haven't told me what Leviticus 26:29 is. I would like you to answer that without looking it up. Given that you are full of Jesus knowledge, you should know this stuff.

Otherwise, I suggest reading wolty's list then.

[loubert]

Well, when you have this desire that burns within and you cannot attain it from anything, not sex, not drugs, not money, but it eats away at you and you don't even know what it is, and you explore the hidden meanings in life desperately seeking reason and truth until one day everything that you desired in life is given to you in a heart beat and that thing that is given turns out to be the blood of Jesus and the knowledge of the Father in heaven and you can't believe it's true but it is because every moment is filled with peace and freedom, then you will know the Jesus that I know.


Sounds like a stop gap cure for mental illness to me.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

I'm not sure curing mental illnesses by attempting to give others a different mental illness will actually work though. At least I am unsure of any evidence to suggest this.

[Goldenmane]

God forgives sin, that is why He's feared.

What the fuck is sin?

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Sin is what happens when you look at the sun through a bottle of gin.

[Goldenmane]

Well, when you have this desire that burns within and you cannot attain it from anything, not sex, not drugs, not money, but it eats away at you and you don't even know what it is, and you explore the hidden meanings in life desperately seeking reason and truth until one day everything that you desired in life is given to you in a heart beat and that thing that is given turns out to be the blood of Jesus and the knowledge of the Father in heaven and you can't believe it's true but it is because every moment is filled with peace and freedom, then you will know the Jesus that I know.

My bold.

Fuckin' death magic, again.

Death magic is, on all levels, fucked up. Even if it worked, it would be fucked up. The fact that it patently fucking doesn't is one of the saving graces - to snark a little - of the cosmos.

The only really funny thing about all this, to my current mind, is that throughout history Christians have decried all forms of necromancy whilst remaining staunchly oblivious to the fact that their own fucking religion relies upon it.

Still, if you want to go bathe in the Blood of the Lamb, get to it. I'd rather just employ some H2O and a little sodium laureth sulphate. At least I won't need to bathe twice.

Why are those 'washed in the blood of the lamb' so often found to be the opposite of clean?:confused:

[Goldenmane]

Poor Bik and his yearning. I'm like that with salted peanuts.

Cashew.

Oh, I'm sorry. You gonna bless me?

[Goldenmane]

That's what gets whispered in your ear after that initial thrust.

Oh, like... " 'Sin?"

Often followed by "yet?"













I know nothing of such things.:D

[Worldslaziestbusker]

I agree with Phillip K Dick. Where can I flee from God's spirit even in times of unbelief.

The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.:eek:

I am also fond of Phillip K. Dick. He once proposed that reality is that which continues to exist after you have stopped believing in it, which I think is a reasonable working model. What do you think happens to the concept of a deity when that god has no more belivers? It happened to Baal, among others. It may yet happen to Yaweh.

I never got into drugs. I take credit for that, but would you claim that was due to Jesus too?
Why didn't Jesus prevent you from getting into drugs? In my model of how the world works, you simply made different choices to me, but in yours model, surely Jesus could have saved you earlier than he did and prevented suffering. Most people I know don't like to observe suffering in others, particularly when it is up close and personal. If an omniscient being is comfortable with suffering, could we really be made in their image?

Suspect you will attempt to wriggle out of this basic form of the argument from evil with:
"Without suffering there can be no free will... blah-de-blah-de-blah."

Why does suffering require a supernatural agency? Insert $2 or supply evidence to continue game.
10
9
8
7

[wearestardust]

What do you think happens to the concept of a deity when that god has no more belivers? It happened to Baal, among others. It may yet happen to Yaweh.

Get thee to Terry Pratchett's Small Gods for a short novel's worth of consideration of this very question!

[Jaar-Gilon]

My bold.

Fuckin' death magic, again.

Death magic is, on all levels, fucked up. Even if it worked, it would be fucked up. The fact that it patently fucking doesn't is one of the saving graces - to snark a little - of the cosmos.

The only really funny thing about all this, to my current mind, is that throughout history Christians have decried all forms of necromancy whilst remaining staunchly oblivious to the fact that their own fucking religion relies upon it.

Still, if you want to go bathe in the Blood of the Lamb, get to it. I'd rather just employ some H2O and a little sodium laureth sulphate. At least I won't need to bathe twice.

Why are those 'washed in the blood of the lamb' so often found to be the opposite of clean?:confused:
INDEED! 'Aint that the whole fucking truth!!

[Bik]

God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

I don't just believe, I know because I've humbled myself before Him and He's revealed Himself to me.

You think you're smart and you know it all, but I sit here and laugh at you're carnal wisdom that is so fickle and temporal, conceived from you're judgmental and limited perspectives. If only you would humble yourselves before God and you could learn the truth about Him.

'I will pour my spirit upon all flesh in the last days says the Lord, I will write my laws in their minds and in their hearts and cause them to walk in my statues and their sin and their iniquity I shall remember no more.'

A prophecy that is thousands of years old yet revealed and fulfilled to those who fear God and seek after Him. Happened to me in 2001, Thank you Jesus for your mercy.

The truth is revealed by His spirit. No humility, no revelation. Yeeeooooowww

:(

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

How has he revealed himself to you? Did he appear as a popup because you were still using Internet Explorer 6 at the time? Did he crash through the roof in his private airline? He must have done this somehow.

And on the forums, "I challenge thee", quoth the Reptile, "Prithee, a christian ye be not, surely? For thou doth surely be despicable not?"

[Jaar-Gilon]

And thus you may reside in fantasy. Here's a tip, keep it in your head! Read below.

[Logic please]

God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

I don't just believe, I know because I've humbled myself before Him and He's revealed Himself to me.

You think you're smart and you know it all, but I sit here and laugh at you're carnal wisdom that is so fickle and temporal, conceived from you're judgmental and limited perspectives. If only you would humble yourselves before God and you could learn the truth about Him.

'I will pour my spirit upon all flesh in the last days says the Lord, I will write my laws in their minds and in their hearts and cause them to walk in my statues and their sin and their iniquity I shall remember no more.'

A prophecy that is thousands of years old yet revealed and fulfilled to those who fear God and seek after Him. Happened to me in 2001, Thank you Jesus for your mercy.

The truth is revealed by His spirit. No humility, no revelation. Yeeeooooowww

:( (my bolding)
Thanks for the well-intentioned wibble Bik, but speaking for myself, it's completely unnecessary. I'm quite happy with my life, and my place in it - and all with nary a trace of "humbling" :rolleyes:

How about you ask your imaginary friend to help you with your "judgemental and limited perspectives" in relation to atheists? Not too much evidence of "judge not, lest ye be judged" on your behalf, is there? :eek: I'll bet that you won't get any answer on that one, for instance.. :cool:

And I, for one, would like to see Bik's answer to Croc's question (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showpost.php?p=156330&postcount=245) :)

If your god asked you to kill somebody then would you do it? Simple YES or NO will suffice.

[Goldenmane]

God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.
How?

I don't just believe, I know because I've humbled myself before Him and He's revealed Himself to me.How?

You think you're smart and you know it all,No, I emphatically don't 'know it all'. I'm also not big on pretending I know it all because I prostrated myself before some magical person. We'll forgo discussion as to the sucking of celestial cock at this stage.

but I sit here and laugh at you're carnal wisdom that is so fickle and temporal, conceived from you're judgmental and limited perspectives. If only you would humble yourselves before God and you could learn the truth about Him.

Or maybe we won't. Please do tell me: do you think these ideas actually constitute rational thought, or are you just doing a parody?


'I will pour my spirit upon all flesh in the last days says the Lord, I will write my laws in their minds and in their hearts and cause them to walk in my statues and their sin and their iniquity I shall remember no more.'

A prophecy that is thousands of years old yet revealed and fulfilled to those who fear God and seek after Him. Happened to me in 2001, Thank you Jesus for your mercy.

The truth is revealed by His spirit. No humility, no revelation. Yeeeooooowww

:(

[Logic please]

Nearly forgot...

'I will pour my spirit upon all flesh in the last days says the Lord

Well Bik, I'll be drinking mine, and sharing with good friends... can't waste good spirits... have you seen the prices at the bottleshop lately? ;)

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

I'm at least 95% certain this guy has no idea what he is talking about when he refers to "His Word" and "His Prophecy being fullfilled" and "His Glory" etcetera.

[Xeno]

God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.Cite objective examples, or of any god doing any thing whatsoever.

I don't just believe, I know because I've humbled myself before Him and He's revealed Himself to me.As Mr Black said, been there, done that, nothing there.

<more inane wibble not worth the fisking>Enjoy your self-generated good feelings, Bik. The world will keep turning in ways science can explain where your god could not even write that he knew it was happening.

[Centauri]

Well, when you have this desire that burns within and you cannot attain it from anything, not sex, not drugs, not money, but it eats away at you and you don't even know what it is, and you explore the hidden meanings in life desperately seeking reason and truth until one day everything that you desired in life is given to you in a heart beat and that thing that is given turns out to be the blood of Jesus and the knowledge of the Father in heaven and you can't believe it's true but it is because every moment is filled with peace and freedom, then you will know the Jesus that I know.

This is called wishful thinking. You really want the above explanation to be real. It feels true to you, even though it has no element of truth to it.

In other words, it's false consolation.

______________

[Lord Blackadder]

Dear Bik,
Before you talk shite again, please learn the difference between "your" and "you're". It might make your utter tripe slightly more believable.

Okay, it won't. It will still be utter shite but it will be readable and comprehendible shite...