Hello hello!

[Serenity]

I'm new to the forum, though not new to general heathen-ness anymore. Feels like an AA meeting, doesn't it? Hello, my name is Serenity (well, not really ;) ) and I haven't said a prayer in 2 years.

While I don't classify myself as an atheist, I think society at large will as I don't believe in any of the Sky Daddy gods that are prevalent in society. Nor am I an orby-norby pagan or "spiritualist". I am a deist, I suppose. I think there might once have been something that did something and caused the chain of reactions that lead to the world as it is today. I don't think that thing would give a fig's bollocks about our daily lives or that it can in any way interfere with it.

Other than that, I'm a student of dusty old literature at a dusty old university and am looking forward to settling into this little community.

[Fiery]

[sing song voice] Helloooooo Serenity. :D [/silliness] ;-)

I had my coming out at the June 2008 Perth Atheist Meet-up where I said out loud for the first time ever, "Hello my name is Fiery and I'm an atheist". LOL! It definitely had an AA feeling to it.

America's founding fathers were deists, so you are certainly have a very intelligent line of predecessors.

Welcome to the Forum!!!! :D

[Serenity]

Perhaps I should have named myself Serendipity - I was born on the 4th of July *noo nee noo noo*

[Duffy]

I am a deist, I suppose.

Hi Serenity....SERENITY NOW!!!:D welcome

I assume you support the intelligent design theory. Am I correct?

[Serenity]

Oh heavens, no!

Evolution all the way :D

[davo]

hiya Serenity! welcome!

I too am interested in why deism? What made you come to that conclusion?

On the subject of deism, or kinda, I read an interesting piece on the simulation argument (http://www.simulation-argument.com) recently

[SchizoDeluxe]

I'm new to the forum, though not new to general heathen-ness anymore. Feels like an AA meeting, doesn't it?

lol yeah it does, I had that same feeling when I attended my first atheist meetup in Perth early last year and the first thing that popped in my head when everyone was introducing themselves was, this feels like an AA meeting. Not that I would know what an AA meeting feels like :D

[Duffy]

Oh heavens, no!

Evolution all the way :D

Excuse my sticky beak but can you clarify the difference? What I read about deism is that they believe God made the earth then 'wiped his hands of it', would that not be intelligent design. I'm still in training wheels. Happy to be enlightened:)

[Serenity]

Sticky-beak away. I value the opportunity to explore what I think.

My definition of deism (which I am starting to question the validity of now) is that there was a supreme being that set into motion the cosmological events that led to life as we know it. In other words, the cause of the Big Bang. I don't place any significant stock in the idea because it won't really effect me either way to believe or disbelieve in it - it has no intervention or power in the day to day, year to year, millennia to millennia running of the world.

So I think it's a possibility but am not precious about the idea.

[Serenity]

lol yeah it does, I had that same feeling when I attended my first atheist meetup in Perth early last year and the first thing that popped in my head when everyone was introducing themselves was, this feels like an AA meeting. Not that I would know what an AA meeting feels like :D

Me either. In my previous life, I was a Muslim and have yet to get over my hang ups about some of the dietary restrictions. Still completely T-total!

[davo]

Hi again :)
Why do you think of this 'force' as being a supreme being? You mean sentient?

[Serenity]

Supreme may have been a poor word choice due to it's connotations. I meant the final in ring in the chain of causation.

I freely admit to ignorance of any of it's properties and completely accept that I may be utterly wrong in this speculation. I am a fond user of Occam's Razor so see the very likely probability of being wrong.

[davo]

Sorry to be so inquisitive ;)
So this final ring, you think it is a sentient 'being'? For want of a word ... If so, why?

[Serenity]

In a word: dunno :)

It's likely a hang-over from my monotheistic days. And a poor grasp of elementary physics so not being able to see past the cosmological argument. I remember seeing something about acausal events but haven't really felt the need to read up on it just yet. For all intents and purposes, I think we live a godless existence.

[davo]

Well put :) thanks for your patience with my prodding!

[Vonnie]

Hi Serenity <waving>. (Somebody already beat me to the "Sereneity NOW!" quip...)

Vonnie

[Duffy]

Sticky-beak away. I value the opportunity to explore what I think.

My definition of deism (which I am starting to question the validity of now) is that there was a supreme being that set into motion the cosmological events that led to life as we know it. In other words, the cause of the Big Bang. I don't place any significant stock in the idea because it won't really effect me either way to believe or disbelieve in it - it has no intervention or power in the day to day, year to year, millennia to millennia running of the world.

So I think it's a possibility but am not precious about the idea.

Thanks Serenity and a prelude to my next question, is that sometimes I find a written question may come across more as an accusation or a challenge. But that's not the case with me, just damn curious I am:o

Ok...does the theory that a deity started the chain of events that lead to earth's creation, perhaps fill in the gaps and appease your 'inner theist'? I myself find it a nice idea and science can't really dispprove it but I struggle with the whole supernatural connotations and frankly it asks more questions than it answers i.e who is the supreme being and what is he up to now? (I assume it's a 'he')
Then you had to go and mention a previous life.:confused: Was that just a joke or do you believe in reincarnation?
Thanks for your patience.:)

[Serenity]

Thanks Serenity and a prelude to my next question, is that sometimes I find a written question may come across more as an accusation or a challenge. But that's not the case with me, just damn curious I am:o

That's fine. I'm much the same.

Ok...does the theory that a deity started the chain of events that lead to earth's creation, perhaps fill in the gaps and appease your 'inner theist'? I myself find it a nice idea and science can't really dispprove it but I struggle with the whole supernatural connotations and frankly it asks more questions than it answers i.e who is the supreme being and what is he up to now? (I assume it's a 'he')

Like I said before, I accept that it probably is a throwback to my theist days. I worked my way out of theism in steps: first doubting one aspect of the religion, then questioning other aspects, then questioning the religion, then questioning all religions. The place where my questioning stopped was the cosmological argument for the simple reason that it didn't really matter any more.

I completely accept that deism is a bit of a Russell's Teapot and I certainly don't have any answers to any of the questions you ask. I suppose that makes me an agnostic-deist? *shrug*

Then you had to go and mention a previous life.:confused: Was that just a joke or do you believe in reincarnation?

Joke :) I meant the 25 years I spent as a believer.

[Darwinsbulldog]

Hi Serenity,

Good to meet you.

[Donna]

Welcome Serenity :)

[Duffy]

Like I said before, I accept that it probably is a throwback to my theist days. I worked my way out of theism in steps: first doubting one aspect of the religion, then questioning other aspects, then questioning the religion, then questioning all religions. The place where my questioning stopped was the cosmological argument for the simple reason that it didn't really matter any more.

I completely accept that deism is a bit of a Russell's Teapot and I certainly don't have any answers to any of the questions you ask. I suppose that makes me an agnostic-deist? *shrug*

I think that is a great and very honest answer. :D It can't be assumed that everyone, including atheists, have always reached a full conclusion to what they think and believe. There is so much more information and so many great, thought provoking theories and facts out there to discover that only ones with an open mind will benefit from it all. Cheers :)

[Kerri-Lee]

Welcome. I'm new to all the terminology too so I have to ask, are you sure you aren't hedging your bets with the deism?

[alanqui]

hello Serenity

Nice name, maybe I will become Firefly. You can't stop the Signal

[Serenity]

I don't think it fits into the Pascal's Wager framework because my accepting the possibility doesn't impact on my life. I don't pray to to possibility nor make any promises to it. I don't live a life as though I am being watched or as if my actions have any beyond-the-grave consequences.

It's not so much hedging my bets as a bookmark for research once my other more pressing study concerns are dealt with :)

[Serenity]

hello Serenity

Nice name, maybe I will become Firefly. You can't stop the Signal

Shiny :D

[Kerri-Lee]

Sorry for my last posting. Stupidly I had only read the first page and everyone has well and truly moved on. I am also curious and quite ignorant of religion so I'm going to risk your laughter by saying I thought you couldn't leave Islam, only on pain of death. Please save me from my ignorance.

What are you thoughts on cosmologists like Stephen Hawking who are suggesting (still working on the maths)that there was no beginning and there will be no end to the universe?

[Serenity]

You can't really stop people from believing when they have opened their eyes to the atrocities and absurdities of the religion. There are many apostates, many of them silent because yes, under Sharia law, it is a crime and, taking the moderate approach as they do, they lop yer head off for it.

But I am lucky to have been born in the UK and to live in Australia where I have religious freedom and can state that I no longer believe confident that the state will protect me and my rights to do so.

My thoughts on Steven Hawkings is that he understands cosmology far better than I likely ever could and so I bow to his superior understanding of his field. Perhaps I'll read the Cliff Notes of his works at some point :D The idea of infinity bothers me but I can't pin-point why. I shall put it down to ignorance of the matter.

[Duffy]

It's not so much hedging my bets as a bookmark for research once my other more pressing study concerns are dealt with :)

I like that, well put. The Hitchens v Turek debate broaches the subject of 'something from nothing' and is a pretty good representation of both the deist and atheist perpective. I know Turek then muddies the waters with theism, but he's a tool. I think from what scientist know and don't know, makes deism difficult to argue and relies much on faith. Theism is another thing and evolution has TKO'd that sucker long ago.

As for Sharia law, how do countries deal with it when the muslims immigrate? I support people's personal choices but can't reconcile that with a religion of oppression. :confused:

[Serenity]

Turek gives me the creeping irrits. There's no way I could sit through his garbled, cringe-worthy arguments, particularly when he (obviously and therefore unsuccessfully) uses every trick in the book to get the audience on his side, relying on (non-existent) charisma to buoy crappy logic.

In short, I haven't seen the debate past the first video :D

Regarding Sharia law, I don't really know how it works. I grew up in a moderate Muslim household and while we had to observe some strict rules and regulations, they didn't go against British law so there wasn't a conflict. The worst I have seen is people being sent "back home" to get married at the age of 14 and 15.

I'd imagine if you were from a more fundamentalist household, there would be more punishment from parents, elders, the mosque and the community for transgression. While there is some sort of direction in either the Quran or that Hadiths (can't remember which off-hand) that Muslims must follow the laws of the land in which they live, there are significantly more directions that God's law is higher than any man made law. What this seems to often translate to in real life is that Sharia law is still practised but hidden from the authorities.

[Cody]

The idea of infinity bothers me but I can't pin-point why.
Your intuition may be onto something, even mathematics (as far as I understand it) has trouble dealing with infinite values.

[Duffy]

Your intuition may be onto something, even mathematics (as far as I understand it) has trouble dealing with infinite values.

I like this Einstein quip:

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human studity, and I'm not sure about the former."

and this observation

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted":)