atheism & freemasonry - can they coexist?

[matteovinci]

well i had to ask

does anyone have any experience with the combination of the two

also, any conflict between both?

in continuing from the comment i made in the thread regarding honey bees, i mentioned that walt disney was a 33rd level freemason

now surely he was not evil (as "conspiracy/truth" theorists may say), with all the joy that he brought & his name continues to bring to the world

[The Irreverent Mr Black]

Given atheism = "no god/s" and Masonry's continual references to some Great Architect who could only fill a god-type role, in short I'd say they don't look good as potential bedmates.

While I haven't observed the Craft deeply, I can infer some things from the way other big organisations like, say, the Catholic church manage to interact with bodies whose aims would appear to contradict theirs. Yes, I'm talking about the Nazis.

I'd say nominal co-operation would be possible, but mutual trust would not be feasible.

[davo]

In the opinion of one atheist, me,
No.

[Vonnie]

While Freemasonry is not a religious group, Freemasons believe in the "Grand Architect of the Universe", i.e. god. An atheist would have to lie in order to become a Freemason. (Not that I can imagine for a minute why any atheist would want to be a Freemason... there are other groups like Apex or the Lions who do community work, don't require belief in a deity, are open to scrutiny, and don't have peculiar rituals.)

However, like most groups or organisations, there are subgroups or breakaways, and the "French Masons" are one of them which apparently do not have this prerequisite. The Freemasons do not recognise the French Masons as legitimate "brothers", though.

Vonnie

[Protium]

Requires the belief in a supreme being.... FAIL!

[matteovinci]

well i think that settles it then!
nice to see we can come to a conclusion without delusion

[Evil Doer]

also, any conflict between both?

Surely, there's certainly conflict between it and skepticism?

[matteovinci]

one thing in particular aside from the belief in a supreme being

"Loyalty to one's country is an essential qualification in Freemasonry, and only those are acceptable who cheerfully render obedience to every lawful authority. Disloyalty in any form is abhorrent to a Freemason, and is regarded as a serious Masonic offense."

that to me is worse than believing in a supreme being

[Duffy]

Atheists by our very nature re: 'question everything and everybody' wouldn't shouldn't couldn't be part of any group that supplied an unquestionable ideology with their membership card

[wishcraft]

Well really, I find the concept of a pyramid scheme rather amusing, in fact I once had 2 men - infact stand at my door; dress as badly made out transsexuals brandishing a baseball bat and a crow bar, and threatenly menanced that I had to join the free masons.

I gave them a fake pseduo name - simon anthony roberts. From that moment on I was arrested, charged and several time imprisons in brain jail under this false name. Infact I went to QLD and lived as they saw fit and still for the first time in that town the fake name still was in occurance.

Personally when you find groups like that which are ment to be "secret" posting autonomously with nanoscience sites like something is trying to be "above top secret" on a global scale (the community effort site for this).. I find a bemusement in the scale of how bad a pyramid scheme like that is; especially with building like the one on castlereigh (I think) that looks like an upside down phalyic representation of...

It is something like this when they have single-handed themselves a corruption red tape line in the basis of emails containing the wrong name details and completely flawed psychoanalysis of myself (I did do quiet a few years acting classes).. Which make my time in australia quiet amusing.

Personally I don't think with a flaw like the on of ancient egyptions and pyramid schemes which walked themselves out of existence in a basis of deity and the supernatural - the ground you walk needs to be solid or you will fall through it, basis of none factual reporting systems as you can see means that there is no foundation to start with, it is a rigger of supisticion

[Sharpie44]

I found this forum by accident and as a Freemason I think I need to set you people straight.
First off yes most definitely atheism and Freemasonry can coexist. The founding fathers were Freemasons and were hard core secularists as am I. It is essential to keep religion out of our schools and our politics. A very well known Freemason by the name of Thomas Jefferson (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasjeff132259.html) said “It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. “ I have supported the atheist movement for a long time and am disturbed that you people do not know the roal the Freemasons have played in allowing a secularist movement to happen. America was set up as the first secularist state by Freemasons. Everyone is Free to believe or not believe whatever they want and any good Freemason would defend your right not too believe as strongly as they would defend their own right too believe. I personally am a deist and am opposed to many aspects of organized religion.
wishcraft (http://atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/member.php?u=84) you are a either a liar or those were not freemasons. Joining the Freemasons takes time and effort on your part and no Freemason will just come up and ask you to join let alone attempt to force you. That would be against the fundamentals of freemasonry. If you wanted to join you would have to get in contact with a lodge and go through a process of evaluation before joining. Also considering the vast amount of money the Freemasons give to charity every year, I fail to see how it is a scheme of any kind. There isn’t much money involved in joining or being a part of the Masons, mostly just going to fund rising dinners and things like that. Those normally go to charities or for operating costs and renovations for the lodge.
Like Jefferson I have no problem with atheists and I have many atheist friends. I think you would be hard pressed to find a Freemason that wants to put down atheists. BTW: There is no gold, the illuminati doesn’t exist, and we are not a religion. You’re not even supposed to discuss religion in a lodge meeting probably because we have many people of different faiths.

[davo]

good points Sharpie44, I am still evaluating my stance, as I have limited information on the current status of freemasonry, but point you at some issues as I see it.

I will also point you at http://notthe.us as I find the us-centric approach of many of the folk from your country quite annoying in discussions. There is more to the world than your country.

My assumptions are based on the Masonic temples, the churches, in 1717, a United Grand Lodge was formed in London, using Dr. John Anderson's Constitution to standardize the rituals and practices. Anderson had stipulated in his Constitution that:A Mason is obliged, by his tenure, to obey the Moral Law: and if he rightly understands the Art, he will never be a stupid Atheist nor an irreligious libertine....
This has carried thru to today, and I also point you to the United Grand Lodge of Englands website :

http://www.ugle.org.uk/masonry/freemasonry-and-religion.htm

"Freemasonry is not a religion, nor is it a substitute for religion. It demands of its members a belief in a Supreme Being but provides no system of faith of its own. "

"The names used for the Supreme Being enable men of different faiths to join in prayer (to God as each sees Him) without the terms of the prayer causing dissention among them.

There is no separate Masonic God; a Freemason's God remains the God of the religion he professes.

Freemasons meet in common respect for the Supreme Being, but He remains Supreme in their individual religions, and it is no part of Freemasonry to attempt to join religions together. There is therefore no composite Masonic God. "

"The Bible, referred to by Freemasons as the Volume of the Sacred Law, is always open at every Masonic meeting."

"Freemasonry is far from indifferent to religion. Without interfering in religious practice it expects each member to follow his own faith, and to place above all other duties his duty to God, by whatever name He is known. Its moral teachings are acceptable to all religions.

Freemasonry is thus a supporter of religion."

Whereas Freemasonry can be argued as Secular, it is not Atheist.

[davo]

Hmm from the little I have read, it appears Freemasonry in your country has devolved to being little more than a social club of the bourgeois.

However I point you to the californian masons http://www.freemason.org/become_member/index.php

"Membership is open to men age 18 and older who believe in a Supreme Being and meet the qualifications and standards. Men of all ethnic and religious backgrounds are welcome."

[Sharpie44]

Well I'm not saying that the U.S is the only country out there but it was the first secular state. That all happened long before my family came over from Germany.

There are different opinions on religion within free masonry. We are all about free speech and free thought so it's to be expected. It's true that no Freemason can be an atheist but on the same note they can't be a radical fundamentalist as well. Deist seems to be popular within Freemasonry historically.

Some view scripture in the same way they view philosophy, dogma seems to be the big issue. Referencing Jefferson again he created his own bible that took the dogma out and only left the philosophy of Jesus. I could care less if he was the son of god what I care more about is what he said. If what he said holds no weight with ought him being the son of god is it really something we want to study. I don’t actually know if Socrates actually existed and I cretin he wasn’t the son of a deity but his Socratic method is still an amassing achievement.

We do have a bible opened during every meeting but I didn’t think that was against the law. If I’m going to defend your right to not believe then you better damn well respect my right to believe.

“Freemasonry is thus a supporter of religion." I don’t like that. I would prefer “Freemasonry is thus a supporter the freedom of religion.” Believe or not believe whatever you like just don’t tell others what they should believe.

I never said that Freemasonry is atheistic. It just secularist and not opposed to atheist. Not meaning to bring up America again but we have a long tradition of atheists supports here. (Not so much in our current government.) Susan b Anthony was a hard core militant atheist and a part of the founding of our country. It’s too bad Americans have forgotten that. Religion tends to pull the wool over some people’s eyes.

[Sharpie44]

No that's not true at all but you have hit an an issue in Freemasonry at the moment. We have a bit of a division in the ranks presently concerning membership. Some in the organization want to leave tradition behind and speed up the process of admitting new members.

I'm with the other side of the argument. I'm for quality not quantity and it is looked down open for someone to do it any other way than the traditional way. I think many lodges agree with me.

bourgeois would be a wrong ether way. It's the quality of the individual not what family they came from or social class. I'll black ball a millionaire if i think he's a scumbag. My father was worked in a welding shop and my mom works with the mentally disabled.

Hmm from the little I have read, it appears Freemasonry in your country has devolved to being little more than a social club of the bourgeois.

However I point you to the californian masons http://www.freemason.org/become_member/index.php

"Membership is open to men age 18 and older who believe in a Supreme Being and meet the qualifications and standards. Men of all ethnic and religious backgrounds are welcome."

[davo]

Well I'm not saying that the U.S is the only country out there but it was the first secular state. That all happened long before my family came over from Germany.


Actually no, India was well before the U.S., and Ira M. Lapidus writes about secularist states in the middle east during the middle ages in the book "The Separation of State and Religion in the Development of Early Islamic Society", International Journal of Middle East Studies 6 (4), p. 363-385.


There are different opinions on religion within free masonry. We are all about free speech and free thought so it's to be expected. It's true that no Freemason can be an atheist but on the same note they can't be a radical fundamentalist as well. Deist seems to be popular within Freemasonry historically.


Whereas I do not disagree that Freemasonry has in the past, in various offshoots of the establishment, even supported and harbored atheistic thought, I do not see how atheism and freemasonry as it stands can 'co-exist', they are two seperate entities as defined by the requirement that Freemasons must believe in a god. Where does it say they cannot be a radical fundamentalist?

Sure you can try changing it, but you could say the same thing about any established society that currently excludes atheism from it, and is bound by having to have a belief in a Supreme Being.


Some view scripture in the same way they view philosophy, dogma seems to be the big issue. Referencing Jefferson again he created his own bible that took the dogma out and only left the philosophy of Jesus. I could care less if he was the son of god what I care more about is what he said. If what he said holds no weight with ought him being the son of god is it really something we want to study. I don’t actually know if Socrates actually existed and I cretin he wasn’t the son of a deity but his Socratic method is still an amassing achievement.
We do have a bible opened during every meeting but I didn’t think that was against the law. If I’m going to defend your right to not believe then you better damn well respect my right to believe.


It's not against the law, and I don't care if you believe in a faery or not, or in the collated construct of 'jesus'.

I disagree however that freemasonry and atheism can 'co-exist', they can stand separate, but not together in the one space. They are diametrically opposed based on one requiring the belief in a Supreme Being.

If you mean co-exist on the planet, I presume so, but my atheism has no time for an organisation that is based on the requirement of their being a god, and having a religion.


“Freemasonry is thus a supporter of religion." I don’t like that. I would prefer “Freemasonry is thus a supporter the freedom of religion.” Believe or not believe whatever you like just don’t tell others what they should believe.


that's great that you believe that, but freemasonry doesn't. 'Freedom to believe what you want, so long as you believe in a supreme being'


I never said that Freemasonry is atheistic. It just secularist and not opposed to atheist. Not meaning to bring up America again but we have a long tradition of atheists supports here. (Not so much in our current government.) Susan b Anthony was a hard core militant atheist and a part of the founding of our country. It’s too bad Americans have forgotten that. Religion tends to pull the wool over some people’s eyes.


*shrug* I don't think atheism and freemasonry can co-exist if you define it in existing in the same space, due to the reasons mentioned, if that changes, and religion is removed from it, sure.

I would disagree that a group that requires religion as a basis of entry is secular in nature, as it disallows atheists from being members, and requires that it's members have religion.

I refer you to :

http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=secular

Noun

* S: (n) layman, layperson, secular (someone who is not a clergyman or a professional person)

Adjective

* S: (adj) secular (of or relating to the doctrine that rejects religion and religious considerations)
* S: (adj) worldly, secular, temporal (characteristic of or devoted to the temporal world as opposed to the spiritual world) "worldly goods and advancement"; "temporal possessions of the church"
* S: (adj) profane, secular (not concerned with or devoted to religion) "sacred and profane music"; "secular drama"; "secular architecture", "children being brought up in an entirely profane environment"
* S: (adj) secular (of or relating to clergy not bound by monastic vows) "the secular clergy"
* S: (adj) laic, lay, secular (characteristic of those who are not members of the clergy) "set his collar in laic rather than clerical position"; "the lay ministry"

[davo]

Indeed some areas of Freemasonry are specific to one religion only.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Rite

"A brother not only has to be in regular attendance, but also has to show that he has a certain proficiency and knowledge of Freemasonry. The Swedish Rite demands members be Christian and not just that they believe in a supreme being."

[Protium]

Welcome Sharpie44. Would you like to go to Welcome New Members (http://atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=2) and introduce yourself.

I am sure a few of us would be keen to understand your deism.

[Sharpie44]

Well that is complicated. Some rights do require you to be a cretin religion but they are a complicated issue. To be a free mason you just have to believe in a supreme being. That's the important part. The other rights are not mandatory or anything like that it's just a complicated part of it. Historically and otherwise.

Indeed some areas of Freemasonry are specific to one religion only.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Rite

"A brother not only has to be in regular attendance, but also has to show that he has a certain proficiency and knowledge of Freemasonry. The Swedish Rite demands members be Christian and not just that they believe in a supreme being."

[The Irreverent Mr Black]

Well that is complicated. Some rights do require you to be a cretin religion but they are a complicated issue. To be a free mason you just have to believe in a supreme being. That's the important part. The other rights are not mandatory or anything like that it's just a complicated part of it. Historically and otherwise.

Does a "supreme being" not equal a "god"?

What else could a being do with "supreme-ness", other than be a god?

And believing this being existed: what could that be, but a religion?

If there's something vital I've missed, please inform me.

[Sharpie44]

supreme being could be referencing Aristotle's prime mover which cannot be disproved by science. It is a cod but not in the abrahamic way meaning it isn't a personal god.

Freemasonry is not a religion because you can belong to any religion and be a Mason. There is no dogma is the big thing I guess. That and Freemasonry is not marketed to anyone as alternative way to redemption. No one is saying that being a Mason is a way to get into an afterlife.

Does a "supreme being" not equal a "god"?

What else could a being do with "supreme-ness", other than be a god?

And believing this being existed: what could that be, but a religion?

If there's something vital I've missed, please inform me.

[davo]

Does a "supreme being" not equal a "god"?

What else could a being do with "supreme-ness", other than be a god?

And believing this being existed: what could that be, but a religion?

If there's something vital I've missed, please inform me.

It's semantics

The organisation does not condone one particular god over another, so in reality, it is a sect of religions, not a religion in itself, as it does not define a belief system, only requires one.

[The Irreverent Mr Black]

It's semantics

The organisation does not condone one particular god over another, so in reality, it is a sect of religions, not a religion in itself, as it does not define a belief system, only requires one.

But surely any belief system requiring a supreme being is a religion. Therefore, to be a freemason, one must have a religion, and atheist freemasons are therefore not authentic freemasons.

[Sharpie44]

I agree. I suppose that is an accurate way to put it.

It's semantics

The organisation does not condone one particular god over another, so in reality, it is a sect of religions, not a religion in itself, as it does not define a belief system, only requires one.

[Sharpie44]

"one must have a religion" I'm a deist and belong to no organized religion. Freemasonry requires that you beliave in a supreme being not a dogmatic religion.

But surely any belief system requiring a supreme being is a religion. Therefore, to be a freemason, one must have a religion, and atheist freemasons are therefore not authentic freemasons.

[The Irreverent Mr Black]

"one must have a religion" I'm a deist and belong to no organized religion. Freemasonry requires that you beliave in a supreme being not a dogmatic religion.

But atheist freemasons... that is, "freemasons who do NOT believe in a supreme being", that would be a big NO, wouldn't it?

[Sharpie44]

yes atheists are not allowed to be Freemasons but why would they want to be. That would be like a vegetarian going to a barbecue lovers convention.

But atheist Freemasons... that is, "freemasons who do NOT believe in a supreme being", that would be a big NO, wouldn't it?

[davo]

I'm vego and love barbeques :) hmmm Veggie Shish Kebabs, grilled sweet potato and peaches or mango aahhh .. stuffed tomato and zucchini droool .. king size mushrooms drizzled with lime, soy sauce, garlic and pine nuts .... ARGH I'm HUNGRY!!!

[Sharpie44]

no barbecue is complete without grilled peppers and onions and other assorted veggies raped in tinfoil to keep in the juices. Especially good if they are fresh out of the garden. Then you just have to worry about some yuppie coming near your meat with any grilling sauces and ruining the natural flavor of the meat. Fools.

But you get my point.

I'm vego and love barbeques :) hmmm Veggie Shish Kebabs, grilled sweet potato and peaches or mango aahhh .. stuffed tomato and zucchini droool .. king size mushrooms drizzled with lime, soy sauce, garlic and pine nuts .... ARGH I'm HUNGRY!!!

[The Irreverent Mr Black]

yes atheists are not allowed to be Freemasons but why would they want to be. That would be like a vegetarian going to a barbecue lovers convention.

Now hang on. I'm not disputing the right of masons to be masons, deists to be deists, or small furry things from Alpha Centauri to be stolen from the works of Douglas Adams. I believe in the freedom of belief as strongly as I believe in the freedom of disbelief.

Still I put it to you that if masonry, as quoted by Davo earlier, "demands of its members a belief in a Supreme Being but provides no system of faith of its own", then atheists cannot effectively be masons, unless the quoted source was wrong.

Perhaps somebody senior at the lodge could clarify this.

[davo]

No that's right Mr Black, if you read back, I post the actual link to various sites confirming the requirement to believe in a supreme being to be a member, and for example you can look here on the australian (victorian) site :

http://www.freemasonsvic.net.au/SecretsnbspnbspUnlocked/WhatIsFreemasonry/tabid/82/Default.aspx

"Freemasonry recognizes the richness of all cultural beliefs and excludes no individual from membership on the basis of race or politics. Though Freemasons are required to profess a belief in a Supreme Being the specifics of a Freemasons belief are considered to be a personal matter."

Or for the NSW's quite clear http://www.uglnsw.freemasonry.org.au/ :

Like many membership organisations, there are certain prerequisites that potential members must satisfy when applying to be a Freemason. To become a Freemason a person needs to:

1. Be a Law abiding person;
2. Have a belief in a Supreme Being; and
3. Have made his decision to join Freemasonry by his own free will and not for any personal gain or reasons of idle curiosity.

[Kid]

My husband is a freemason and a non-believer; he just pays lip service to the 'supreme being' thing. Once you're in, you're in, and religion need not play any further role. so yes, you can be an atheist and a freemason, as I live with one. He has no belief in god, a god, goddess or the supernatural. If and when it comes to anything to do with god in the lodge, he sees it merely as a part of the many ancient rituals of the craft; this supreme being belief does not interfere in anyway with his life inside or outside of the lodge, and he does not interfere in anyway with the craft rituals, which he highly respects. He is a freemason because his father is one, and my husband was initiated in England, not here in Oz. So he's a pommie atheist freemason, beat that!:)

[Sharpie44]

lol well i suspected that there were atheist Freemasons out there. I've just here met one that admit to it. I suspect there is quite a few out there. I'm about as close as you can get without braking any rules. I've always wanted to go visit the temples in London. I've seen pictures of some nice ones in Australia to.

My husband is a freemason and a non-believer; he just pays lip service to the 'supreme being' thing. Once you're in, you're in, and religion need not play any further role. so yes, you can be an atheist and a freemason, as I live with one. He has no belief in god, a god, goddess or the supernatural. If and when it comes to anything to do with god in the lodge, he sees it merely as a part of the many ancient rituals of the craft; this supreme being belief does not interfere in anyway with his life inside or outside of the lodge, and he does not interfere in anyway with the craft rituals, which he highly respects. He is a freemason because his father is one, and my husband was initiated in England, not here in Oz. So he's a pommie atheist freemason, beat that!:)

[davo]

why would someone want to be in a group with those requirements?

[Duffy]

lol well i suspected that there were atheist Freemasons out there.

Hi Sharpie, excuse my assumption but there would be a membership application right? Does it ask you to nominate a religious faith? Can you be muslim for example? What would happen if you wrote atheist? Would you be denied membership?

Ok that's enough questions this isn't an inquisition Duffy *hand slap*

[davo]

I went late last year to London, here's some pics of Temple Church

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3387/3313546250_e45196c6df.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3461/3312717703_c30bcd6b08.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3456/3312717453_9bde8d43c6.jpg

[davo]

Hi Sharpie, excuse my assumption but there would be a membership application right? Does it ask you to nominate a religious faith? Can you be muslim for example? What would happen if you wrote atheist? Would you be denied membership?

Ok that's enough questions this isn't an inquisition Duffy *hand slap*

As I said, as we have been saying, no, no atheists allowed.

Yes you can have any other faith, that believes in a supreme being. You could follow Osiris for example, but you must believe in a supreme being.

Of course, if you lie and say your not an atheist, as Kid's hubby did, sure you can sneak in, but it's a requirement of freemasonry that you believe in a supreme being

[Duffy]

Of course, if you lie and say your not an atheist, as Kid's hubby did, sure you can sneak in, but it's a requirement of freemasonry that you believe in a supreme being

Kid, did your husband withhold his atheism to get in? It would seem you would have too. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Only supposing here.

Personally I wouldn't like to be a part of a group that I had to hide something like that.

[Kid]

The belief in the 'supreme being' thing is just a part of the long and ancient rituals of Freemasonry. Yes, a Muslim can join, if their religion lets them! And Jews. 'The Great architect', 'supreme power', it's a part of it yes, but as the rituals are so ancient, because of their antiquity, they retain their 'god' belief. There is a huge 'G' hanging from the roof of a masonic temple. I can't tell you anymore or my hubby will have to take me out and kill me and cut me up into lots of bits and distribute my body parts all over the bloody place.

If you think of it as men partaking of ancient rituals that are metaphors and symbolic acts from the past, the god thing really isn't so huge a deal. My husband joined because his father is a mason and it is a part of his family tradition. (Hubby says the Catholics don't like Freemasonry cos the mason don't believe in Jesus Christ as God; he says some of the ritual is based on the OT, some on the NT... and religion has very little to do with it).
Fun, isn't it?

[Duffy]

I can't tell you anymore or my hubby will have to take me out and kill me and cut me up into lots of bits and distribute my body parts all over the bloody place.

Oh dear...if you don't log on tomorrow Kid, I'm contacting the authorities ok?:D

[Sharpie44]

No at least at my lodge they only ask if you believe in a supreme power past that it's really not any of there business.

If you wrote atheist they would probably just scratch their head and ask you to re read the requirements to join.

O yes there are many Muslims but Freemasonry is banned in most Muslim countrys. They don't like free speech and freedom or religion is that region.




Hi Sharpie, excuse my assumption but there would be a membership application right? Does it ask you to nominate a religious faith? Can you be muslim for example? What would happen if you wrote atheist? Would you be denied membership?

Ok that's enough questions this isn't an inquisition Duffy *hand slap*

[The Irreverent Mr Black]

Of course, if you lie and say your not an atheist, as Kid's hubby did, sure you can sneak in, but it's a requirement of freemasonry that you believe in a supreme being

Yes, that's what I thought. Considering the oaths one has to take, I would not want to be in the position of fibbing.

[Sharpie44]

It is true that religion actually has a lot less to do with it than people think and yes Catholics and Freemasons are oil and water.

If you think of it as men partaking of ancient rituals that are metaphors and symbolic acts from the past, the god thing really isn't so huge a deal. My husband joined because his father is a mason and it is a part of his family tradition. (Hubby says the Catholics don't like Freemasonry cos the mason don't believe in Jesus Christ as God; he says some of the ritual is based on the OT, some on the NT... and religion has very little to do with it).
Fun, isn't it?[/quote]

[Sharpie44]

lol those punishments you hear about are only symbolic but we will be very cross with you.

Yes, that's what I thought. Considering the oaths one has to take, I would not want to be in the position of fibbing.

[The Irreverent Mr Black]

lol those punishments you hear about are only symbolic but we will be very cross with you.

Sharpie, I hope the craft makes you and your brothers happy, but I may not be the sort of chap who joins things, especially where symbology stands in place of actuality, any more.

I've probably overdosed on communion, and now I'm allergic.

[Sharpie44]

Well that's fine but it's going to be difficult to understand the meaning behind anything deeper than a child's pop up book without symbolism.

Sharpie, I hope the craft makes you and your brothers happy, but I may not be the sort of chap who joins things, especially where symbology stands in place of actuality, any more.

I've probably overdosed on communion, and now I'm allergic.

[The Irreverent Mr Black]

Well that's fine but it's going to be difficult to understand the meaning behind anything deeper than a child's pop up book without symbolism.

Symbolism is always at risk of becoming literalism. Look at the catholic stance on transubstantiation: the bread becomes bits of dead guy and the wine turns into blood... okay!

[Kid]

I'm here! alive! didn't get chopped up....

Mr Black...hi...the symbolism in Freemasonry is just that, and it is known as that; you can't take it literally and possibly confuse it for real life; as you know beforehand that it is symbolism and nothing else, unlike the church that teaches its symbolism as 'literal truth'. Freemasonry is not a religion and it doesn't require that you give over your entire thought to it, that is, your independent thought like the church does. The rituals are known as rituals and no one confuses them for actuality. They are too obviously symbolic for those who have been initiated. The Freemasonry rituals are actually highly fascinating, ancient and require a lot of memory skills to go through the different degrees. Overall, there's nothing sinister going on, like a lot of journalistic investigators have tried to imply in the past (lots of conspiracy books about them by very spurious authors); symbols and understanding their meaning are a part of all our lives, only the Masons have enshrined it to an art form, I believe, from what I've seen of my husband's books.
He didn't lie to get into his lodge in England, he well...just bullshitted them a little...to quote Elwood from the Blues Brothers...

in fact, just a few years ago the local masons in my area donated a cheque for 20,000 dollars to our children's hospital. I've yet to see the catholic church, who hates them so much, make out a cheque like that in donation. I don't think the masons are in any way discriminatory, and I don't care, as a woman, that I can't join. I believe everyone is entitled to their own clubs and associations etc... they're a good bunch of blokes! :D

[The Irreverent Mr Black]

If people want to rehash other people's old metaphors, then jolly good luck to them. I don't think it's my particular thing, so that's probably saved the on-the-square guys and me both a bit of bother.

I know there's a bit of my brain that gets "moved" by music, scenery, paintings...
http://rynosseros.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/crepuscular.jpg
... but the awe don't necessarily imply the presence of anything awesome.

[davo]

god goatse!

http://www.hoax-slayer.com/images/god-hands-in-clouds.jpg

http://www.dazzlindonna.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/thefinger.jpg

[GUDLUSS]

OMG that is SO wrong :eek:

[Sharpie44]

I'm going to have to go ahead and save that for next time I go annoy the evangelicals on their forums. Just as soon as I get my account un banned.

god goatse!

http://www.hoax-slayer.com/images/god-hands-in-clouds.jpg

http://www.dazzlindonna.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/thefinger.jpg

[Duffy]

god goatse!

http://www.hoax-slayer.com/images/god-hands-in-clouds.jpg

http://www.dazzlindonna.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/thefinger.jpg

Thanks to Kieran, I just can't enjoy these as much (photoshop demons).

[Duffy]

I'm here! alive! didn't get chopped up....

Well I did pray for you Kid and here you are...mmm what can we make of that?:D

In regard to freemasons, I'm not taking a high stand on the issue because of what you and Sharpie have informed me about them.

I said I wouldn't want to be a part of a group where I had to hide my atheism but in fact I have. My kids went to YMCA events (although religion was never mentioned) and when I was a young girl I was working out west QLD (starved for entertainment) so I joined the CWAA (http://www.cwaa.org.au/)to learn how to bake stuff. Before every meeting they said a prayer. I lowered my head and thought about yummy lamingtons. If asked, I was C of E (well mum was). So basically I lied for cake and buns...may I be struck down with a yeast complaint:D

[The Irreverent Mr Black]

[Duffy confesses]
.... I lied for cake and buns...may I be struck down with a yeast complaint:D

... And Lo! The Spirit alighted on Duffy's head, in the shape of a thrush... and there were fairy cakes for all.

[Duffy]

... And Lo! The Spirit alighted on Duffy's head, in the shape of a thrush... and there were fairy cakes for all.


Lol, See, even thrush can be funny:D

[Protium]

ahhhh. I loved the Man From Uncle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_from_U.N.C.L.E.) :) and their archenemy THRUSH (Technological Hierarchy for the Removal of Undesirables and the Subjugation of Humanity.)

:D