belief and non-belief / religion as a race

[SchizoDeluxe]

This was something that came up during this conference meeting at work today regarding discrimination. The first point I wanted to bring up is religion viewed as a race. People seem to want to call for example muslim people, a race of people eg it is racist to insult a muslim because of his/her faith. I wanted to know if everyone here agrees that no it's not racist, maybe bigotry is a better word but not racist. Noone says it's racist to insult a christian so why is it considered racist when dealing with muslim or jewish people?

Second, I wanted to clarify the meaning behind the whole belief and non-belief thing. I don't consider atheism to be a belief system at all, only a non-belief, a default or a logical understanding of reality. Yet many people, even atheists themselves say it is an atheists belief that there is no god therefore that is what atheists believe in. I'm sure there is a fine line here and there is no way to prove there is no god so in some sense, it can be said that atheists "believe" in no god but the argument to that is the classic santa claus example. No sane adult believes in santa claus so using the previous logic, it would mean adults "believe" there is no santa claus thereby making it a "belief" but in actual fact, it's not. Anyone want to elaborate more on this or is it a tired old debate now? It's just something that made me really think and just come to the conclusion that having a non-belief in something doesn't constitute as a belief.

[SinisterDexter]

Persevere with this thread SD, it gets into your second question: http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=1368

Re the 'race' thing, both "race" and "religion" are designated as 'grounds' to bring a case for discrimination in Australia. This would suggest that, legally, they are seperate beasts. I am also of the opinion they are separate.

Race is a genetically disseminated, probably fictitious, set of percieved physical characteristics that define the way a person looks.

Religion is socially acceptable crazy talk. ;)

[The Irreverent Mr Black]

Re the 'race' thing, both "race" and "religion" are designated as 'grounds' to bring a case for discrimination in Australia. This would suggest that, legally, they are seperate beasts. I am also of the opinion they are separate.

Perhaps the fact that religion/culture dictates marriage in both jewish and muslim belief systems is part of the cause of this blurry distinction.

The difference between ethnicity and belief in both cases would only be additions to the faiths (converts) and losses by apostasy.

Throw in the entire jewish trifecta (religion/ethnicity/middle-eastern affairs), and it becomes possible to be labelled an anti-semite when disagreeing with zionist politics.

[Fearless]

belief and non-belief... possibly a play on words? I do stop to think when I am using the word belief now but it purely depends on the context and structure of the sentence.

I believe that god does not exist
I am a non-believer in god.

[Chasly]

Second, I wanted to clarify the meaning behind the whole belief and non-belief thing. I don't consider atheism to be a belief system at all, only a non-belief, a default or a logical understanding of reality. Yet many people, even atheists themselves say it is an atheists belief that there is no god therefore that is what atheists believe in.

Good point SD. I try and steer clear of statements such as, "I believe there is no god, etc"

It gives theists a point to argue upon. ie Why is "your belief" superior to "my belief".

But the argument is not about who is better than the other. Its not about making comparisons.
The argument is simply, "You are claiming there is a god, prove it."
Until then I will default to reality as I know it.

[Brad]

You can't class someone as racist if they insult Muslims or Christians. Anyone could be either - it's simply a choice of religion. Christians don't have to be christened - there's no formal entry qualification as such, but to become a Muslim, you have to say the Declaration of Faith.

Jews are a little harder because when you refer to Jews you could be referring to the ethnic group, the religious group or maybe just referring to people who libe in Israel (strictly speaking - Israelis). You could be a Jew by being born of Jewish parents or by taking up the religion.

So if you said Christians/Muslims/Jews give me the shits, the first two are anti-religion, but the third could anti-religion or racist (or if you're a bit of a bastard, both).

[SchizoDeluxe]

So if you said Christians/Muslims/Jews give me the shits, the first two are anti-religion, but the third could anti-religion or racist (or if you're a bit of a bastard, both).

But it shouldn't be because it is exactly the same. I mean, was Hitler really a racist or just an evil bigot? Probably both but he was more anti-jewish than anti-middle eastern.

[The Irreverent Mr Black]

But it shouldn't be because it is exactly the same. I mean, was Hitler really a racist or just an evil bigot? Probably both but he was more anti-jewish than anti-middle eastern.
Israel wasn't established until 1948-ish, so Hitler's hatred was all about jews in Germany.

The root causes of Adolf's hostility? This guy (http://everything2.com/node/1447351) seems to have devoted some study and thought to the matter. To him, it's situational and personal.