Vaccination skepticism is becoming the new public health threat

[gruber]

http://www.thespec.com/opinion/columns/article/614630--we-need-a-vaccine-against-ignorance


Some people refuse to vaccinate their children because they think such shots as MMR (measles, mumps and rubella) cause autism. They don’t. Sixteen epidemiological studies have all concluded there is no link between autism and such vaccines as MMR or thimerosal, a mercury-based preservative once used in vaccines. Thimerosal has not been present in any childhood vaccines, except inactivated influenza vaccine, since 2001. In those 10 years, have the number of identified cases of childhood autism decreased?
No. Actually, they’ve increased.


india nearly has polio wiped out
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-15425852


There have been no new cases for more than nine months, making it the longest polio-free period since the global eradication campaign was launched.
The only case reported this year was in the state of West Bengal in January. There were 39 cases reported over a similar period in 2010.

[Podblack]

The big new concern? Sending freaking diseases in the mail (http://www.kpho.com/story/15896021/cbs-5-investigates-mail-order-diseases). :(

[Xeno]

It seems the government is fighting back (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-25/immunise-or-lose-benefits-parents-told/3694236).

The depressing part is that they are predicting this will save money, rather than predicting a return to higher levels of vaccination.

[Durro]

We've had a resurgence of Whooping Cough here in Brizvegas, thanks to morons not getting their kids vaccinated. At one point recently, we nearly had to close down our medical practice, as a couple of staff tested positive for WC initially (following the presentation of about a dozen WC positive patients), before further tests revealed a false positive on the screen.

I fear that the "childhood diseases" will make a comeback - the problem is, diseases like measles, rubella and chicken pox can be devastating for people, particularly adults. Brain injury, deafness, blindness, meningitis and death are just some of the potential complications for diseases often laughed off as a kiddie ailment.

[Praxis]

Online poll (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/inject-children-or-lose-money/story-fn7x8me2-1226205382138) re penalising idiots who don't vaccinate their kids. I'm all for it.

I will not tolerate this "conscientious objector" bullshit (yes, I'm looking at you, fucking Steiner schools) as if it's somehow a philosophical stance.

These foolish, deluded and dangerously misguided parents who don't/won't vaccinate are too young to remember ever seeing anyone with polio callipers and have probably never spoken to anyone old enough to remember siblings, school friends, relatives dying from easily preventable diseases such as measles, or going blind from them. It's that total lack of any connection to the reality of how vaccination works that to me forms part of the problem.

[Darwinsbulldog]

Online poll (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/inject-children-or-lose-money/story-fn7x8me2-1226205382138) re penalising idiots who don't vaccinate their kids. I'm all for it.

I will not tolerate this "conscientious objector" bullshit (yes, I'm looking at you, fucking Steiner schools) as if it's somehow a philosophical stance.

These foolish, deluded and dangerously misguided parents who don't/won't vaccinate are too young to remember ever seeing anyone with polio callipers and have probably never spoken to anyone old enough to remember siblings, school friends, relatives dying from easily preventable diseases such as measles, or going blind from them. It's that total lack of any connection to the reality of how vaccination works that to me forms part of the problem.

It is important to remember that in some rare cases, it is dangerous to vaccinate particular children [or rather conditions that particular children may have] , but parents should follow a doctor's advice on such things. But of course a lot of it is a childish and moronic rejection and suspicion of science and "big pharma" as well as the self interest of those who benefit from "herd immunity" and are therefore being mean-spirited and irresponsible.
Herd immunity can should only be practiced when the threat of particular conditions to particular children would make it hazardous for them to participate in a vaccination programme[s] and thus enjoy the umbrella protection of herd immunity.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Pardonez moi for being pedantic here, but I would hardly call this vaccination skepticism - this is more a set of fearmongering gibberish claims (eg. "vaccines cause autism") than it is mere skepticism.

I'd call this "anti-vaccination preaching" more than "vaccination skepticism" - as far as I can see this really is quite ridiculous.

Then you get the "oh people are taking children away from parents who don't want to raise them in an environment free of medical drugs" kind of idiots. Guess what punk... a medical drug free environment is a horrible one.

And I think it is rather insulting to attribute random shit to being a cause of autism especially where there is either no/little evidence and/or has been proven/is obvious that it is wrong.

There is already some dirty shitter thinking Wi-Fi hotspots cause autism (http://google.com/search?q=wi-fi+hotspots+cause+autism&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&hl=xx-pirate) - if that was true I would be sticking a number of people's heads in microwaves by now and cooking them for 5 seconds or so. Same wavelength (~2.4GHz) as your wi-fi hotspot but 10,000 times (eg. hotspot = 100mW microwave = 1000W) more powerful.

I think that this anti-vaccine hype type thingy will be an alt-med/snake-oil (whatever the difference is) salesperson's dream come true. For example "Oh the big bad drug companies are at it pushing vaccines that have been proven to make people autistic and we have a much more natural and safer method" kind of thing.

[Xeno]

Vote was only about 60:40 when I voted.

[Darwinsbulldog]

Pardonez moi for being pedantic here, but I would hardly call this vaccination skepticism - this is more a set of fearmongering gibberish claims (eg. "vaccines cause autism") than it is mere skepticism.

I'd call this "anti-vaccination preaching" more than "vaccination skepticism" - as far as I can see this really is quite ridiculous.

Then you get the "oh people are taking children away from parents who don't want to raise them in an environment free of medical drugs" kind of idiots. Guess what punk... a medical drug free environment is a horrible one.

And I think it is rather insulting to attribute random shit to being a cause of autism especially where there is either no/little evidence and/or has been proven/is obvious that it is wrong.

There is already some dirty shitter thinking Wi-Fi hotspots cause autism (http://google.com/search?q=wi-fi+hotspots+cause+autism&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&hl=xx-pirate) - if that was true I would be sticking a number of people's heads in microwaves by now and cooking them for 5 seconds or so. Same wavelength (~2.4GHz) as your wi-fi hotspot but 10,000 times (eg. hotspot = 100mW microwave = 1000W) more powerful.

I think that this anti-vaccine hype type thingy will be an alt-med/snake-oil (whatever the difference is) salesperson's dream come true. For example "Oh the big bad drug companies are at it pushing vaccines that have been proven to make people autistic and we have a much more natural and safer method" kind of thing.

I agree Croc, rational skeptacism = caution, check with doctor to see if your child has problems, if not vaccinate. And irrational skeptacism=woo motivated paranoia and nastiness that can kill.

[Imperfectpeta]

It is important to remember that in some rare cases, it is dangerous to vaccinate particular children [or rather conditions that particular children may have] , but parents should follow a doctor's advice on such things. But of course a lot of it is a childish and moronic rejection and suspicion of science and "big pharma" as well as the self interest of those who benefit from "herd immunity" and are therefore being mean-spirited and irresponsible.
Herd immunity can should only be practiced when the threat of particular conditions to particular children would make it hazardous for them to participate in a vaccination programme[s] and thus enjoy the umbrella protection of herd immunity.

I agree. My first thoughts were of the children that are not able to be vaccinated.

Other than that, I have no major opinions on this yet. I have a huge phobia of vaccinations. Blood tests are fine for me, so are tattoos, but the thought of a vaccination (or a drip) sends me into hyperventilation, nausea attacks and high fevers. So I cannot/will not be getting vaccinations in the future myself (there goes my dream of ever going to Africa or Egypt!). However my children will be vaccinated as my hubby has no phobia and is able to take the (eventual) children to get them done.

But for now, I am waiting for the day when needles are not needed to be used when being vaccinated.

[gruber]

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/12/horrifyingly_delusional_anti-v.php

pz myers article on a new anti-vax book


Measles kills children. The reason these loons can babble about measles as if it were a harmless game that strengthens your immune system is that world-wide vaccination campaigns have been so effective in reducing the incidence of the disease, and because children who are healthy and have good nutrition are very likely to survive it. So what Stephanie Messenger and Meryl Dorey propose to do is to put sick, immuno-compromised, and hungry children at far greater risk of death, and make their own spoiled children miserable and contagious for a few days to a week, and also put them at a lesser risk of death, all so they can smugly promote their hare-brained cause.

[dilbadoon]

Well, I certainly will never be supporting the Woodford Folk Festival (http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/woodford-folk-festival-allows-dangerous-anti-vax-woman-to-speak/)


The Woodford Folk Festival (http://www.woodfordfolkfestival.com/) sounds like a quaint, fringe music festival. It’s not. With more than 130,000 people attending the 2010/2011 event in Queensland it is one of the largest cultural events of its kind in Australia. Which makes it all the more troubling known anti-vaccine campaigner Meryl Dorey has been invited – again – to speak there. Mamamia finds it troubling because of this post we ran debunking the most common vaccination myths, the ones that Dorey and her misleadingly titled Australian Vaccination Network continue to willfully propagate (http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/vaccination-myths-busted-by-science-cheat-sheet-on-immunisation/). It’s one of the most popular posts we have ever run on the site. So while Dorey has been given a platform to speak, despite having been discredited by major health agencies, it is a platform paid for by major sponsors. Including the local council and Queensland Government. So, why? Peter Bowditch writes…..

One of the most annoying/dangerous things about these groups is the way the appoint themselves official sounding titles like the "Australian Vaccination Network" deliberately I believe, to deceive people into thinking that they may have some official or legitimate role. :mad:

Thankfully the Qld health minister has put out a decent response (http://www.cabinet.qld.gov.au/mms/StatementDisplaySingle.aspx?id=78177), but still sad that a festival of this size would see it as ok to promotoe a loon like Meryl. To some part, everyone does have a right to their views, but when your uninformed and incorrect views endager others? That's where the switch off button should be pushed.

[StrangeControl]

She does not deserve to live in a civilised, modern western society.

This is a testimonial from her website, now I'm not deliberately being rude when I point out that something isn't right with those sentences.

I am writing you to express my gratitude for ongoing support we, as a family received over the years in dealing with our vaccine injured children.

I am an autism dad with two children diagnosed with autism. Both my children regressed in their development after receiving full dosage of childhood vaccines.'

[Praxis]

If you thought Meryl couldn't get any worse, you'd be wrong. I haven't heard the interview (and I'll try to find it) but I understand she has spoken to Aboriginal communities (vulnerable people at the best of times) and is encouraging them to not vaccinate but to uuse 'healthy alternatives' to protect their children.

What.The.Actual.FUCK? :headbang:

Now to me, this crosses a line. I'm not sure what line but it's a line and I can only hope that this reaches the ears of our new Health Minister (the pretty awesome and plain-speaking Tania Plibersek) and she does something about it. At the very least Dorey should be charged with malicious spreading of lies and misinformation but AFAIC she should be charged with conduct endangering lives.

This is not an issue of free speech. This is not a philosophical issue. It is a health issue and unless Dorey and her blind followers are stopped, entirely preventable diseases will rear up again - polio anyone? - and children will die.

I cannot believe that she hasn't been put into the same category as other peddlars of bullshit like the cancer cure charlatans and shut down.

:mad:

[Xeno]

There is a partial transcript and some commentary here (http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2011/12/20/unreal-australians/), Praxis.

If you see a rare event and you do not like the event, then clearly that otherwise negligible event is like the tip of an iceberg, a glimpse of a vast number of undesirable events. Perhaps it goes with homeopathy: the less you see of something the more there must be of it.

[Praxis]

That's a bit too cryptic for me I'm afraid Xeno - sorry I've got overworked Xmas brain at the moment so you'll have to spell it out for me a bit clearer than an iceberg analogy :)

[Praxis]

Here's a transcript of her radio interview (http://www.antivaxxers.com/?p=4294). See if you can make it through without wanting to hurl your monitor at a wall.

I love the statistic that 50% of Aborginal children who are vaccinated die after being vaccinated. Apparently all anyone needs to do is take lots of vitamin C and breastfeed their baby :facepalm:

[wearestardust]

I only had time to skim it. She's talking about some doc who stopped vaccinations in an Indigenous community, not saying that now she's doing the rounds of Indigenous communities?

[Xeno]

@Praxis, here are the sections of transcript to which I was referring. 7.00 min: …what happens in Australia, only about one percent of the reactions that happen after drugs or vaccines ever get reported, so when doctors tell us “Oh, the vaccines are perfectly safe,” what they’re doing is they’re basing that statement on information that’s at least 99% incorrect.If there are reactions of any description in 1% of cases then Merry Yodel's interpretation is that only 1% of all reactions are being reported, from which, by subtracting one from a hundred, she calculates that 99% of all vaccine information is wrong.

So, I think that parents need to be aware that doctors are not reporting reactions Like the rest, this was pulled out of her arse.

we have a reactions database where they can report to us and ... since we’ve never had the funding to advertise this except in interviews like this, the reports we get are just the tip of the iceberg.There being formal channels, and motivation, to report problems, her database is immaterial. In Mendacious Yokel's view, the few reports she has must represent a vast unreported mass.

[dilbadoon]

Found it hard to find a reason to read past this:
the right to make free and informed decisions
I guess informed doesn't mean correctly informed in their world. :(

[StrangeControl]

ABS - Health - International comparisons (http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by%20Subject/1370.0~2010~Chapter~International%20comparisons%20 (4.1.9))

4th, yep leaves a lot to be desired...... when you live in the safety and comfort of this society. She probably wouldn't last a six months in a third world country.

[Sieveboy]

ABS - Health - International comparisons (http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by%20Subject/1370.0~2010~Chapter~International%20comparisons%20 (4.1.9))

4th, yep leaves a lot to be desired...... when you live in the safety and comfort of this society. She probably wouldn't last a six months in a third world .

AFAIK Meryl is vaccinated, she kicked this whole stink fist off when her son (allegedly) died from being vaccinated. So she might last longer than 6 months.

[Xeno]

AFAIK Meryl is vaccinated, she kicked this whole stink fist off when her son (allegedly) died from being vaccinated. So she might last longer than 6 months.I did not know about her son.

[wolty]

AVN is headed by Meryl Dorey who has been with the organisation since its founding, saying she got involved after her eldest son was allegedly adversely affected by DPT and MMR vaccines administered when he was a child.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Vaccination_Network

[Praxis]

A petition (http://www.change.org/petitions/stop-misinformation-about-vaccination)asking for Health Minister Tanya Plibersek to speak out about the dangers of misinformation about vaccination being spread by people like Meryl Dorey and the AVN.

Please sign. It's so important.

[Darwinsbulldog]

Done!

[wolty]

Done and FB'd.

[Sieveboy]

I voted, but my steam powered laptop with iron age IE7 might not have succesfully posted :(

[Dowser]

Voted, nasty business that AVN :mad:
I hope the new Health Minister is a few notches above our last lemon.

[Iseeyouthere]

I signed it too. After reading stories of young children falling to diseases that could of had a chance if vaccinated and hearing stories of parents PURPOSELY infecting their children for the "natural immunity" is enough to make my blood boil.

[kazzaqld]

Can someone please delete the above. I fell asleep with smartphone on hand. <blush/>

[Praxis]

Can someone please delete the above. I fell asleep with smartphone on hand. <blush/>
Done. I must admit when I looked at the post I wondered how the heck you had managed to screw up a quote so badly :eek: then learning why the post looked the way it did gave me a good laugh :D

[jonno]

Done - People in WA may have seen some of the articles in the West Australian over the last year that featured 'educated' people from the more affluent suburbs saying why they didn't/won't vaccinate their kids. What didn't surprise me was when they also quoted naturopaths on vaccinations - because we all know that their diploma is just as good, if not better, than a degree in medicine :facepalm:

[Mother of Chaos]

Done. anti vac people get right up my nose :puke:

[Podblack]

Transcript of interview I did with the Stop The AVN now featured on the CSICOP website:

Wings over the Woodford Folk Festival
Protesting by Plane with the Stop The Anti-Vaccination Network (http://www.csicop.org/specialarticles/show/wings_over_the_woodford_folk_festival/)

[dilbadoon]

Transcript of interview I did with the Stop The AVN now featured on the CSICOP website:

Wings over the Woodford Folk Festival
Protesting by Plane with the Stop The Anti-Vaccination Network (http://www.csicop.org/specialarticles/show/wings_over_the_woodford_folk_festival/)

Awesome, thanks! (how is it I only just discovered your podcast? :o)
Have you seen if the forum at woodford was filmed at all or a transcript?

EDIT: while searching for video I did find this: http://www.hccc.nsw.gov.au/Publications/Media-Releases/PUBLIC-WARNING-/default.aspx however there appears to be no such warning on their website. I wonder if there are any avenues for the government to pursue this and enforce it?

[Podblack]

Awesome, thanks! (how is it I only just discovered your podcast? :o)
Have you seen if the forum at woodford was filmed at all or a transcript?

EDIT: while searching for video I did find this: http://www.hccc.nsw.gov.au/Publications/Media-Releases/PUBLIC-WARNING-/default.aspx however there appears to be no such warning on their website. I wonder if there are any avenues for the government to pursue this and enforce it?

Re: the HCCC, that's something the Stop the AVN have been trying to point out for a while - that they've ignored the warning requirement.

If you're new to the podcast, head to: http://tokenskeptic.org/2011/03/20/episode-sixty-on-token-skepticism-the-best-of-so-far/

Regarding the Woodford event - blog from someone there:
http://www.girlclumsy.com/2012/01/vaccination-talk-at-woodford.html
and
http://skeptimite.blogspot.com/2011/12/photos-from-woodford.html

[gruber]

on that Doctors show on channel ten, they are talking bout the parents that are ignoring the chicken pox vaccine and purposly exposing their kids to infected children. There are facebook pages parents can go to to find the nearest pox party to infect their kids. Some send lolly pops that the infected kids have been sucking on to parents to give to their uninfected kids.


As far as iam concerned, purposley trying to infect your kids with a virus that can kill, is child abuse

[gruber]

the HCCC had taken the avn to court but today the judge rulled against the HCCC on the grounds that the avn isnt within their jurisdiction

[owheelj]

Actually the AVN took the HCCC to court, over the HCCC issuing a warning about the AVN. As I understand it, the court ruled in favour of the AVN because in the case the HCCC didn't mange to prove that the AVN actually has an impact on people's health. The HCCC couldn't (or didn't) show that there was a real link between vaccination rates and the AVN website.

[Voltairine]

As far as iam concerned, purposley trying to infect your kids with a virus that can kill, is child abuse

But that wasn't always the case.

[davo]

Actually the AVN took the HCCC to court, over the HCCC issuing a warning about the AVN. As I understand it, the court ruled in favour of the AVN because in the case the HCCC didn't mange to prove that the AVN actually has an impact on people's health. The HCCC couldn't (or didn't) show that there was a real link between vaccination rates and the AVN website.

Actually no, it was the wording of the law, a technicality if you will, a loophole basically in my reading of it.

(1) A complaint may be made under this Act concerning:<snip>
(b) a health service which affects the clinical management or care of an individual client.
(2) A complaint may be made against a health service provider.
The judge found that (2) alone was not enough to issue a health care warning, that (1)b was needed. Since in the original submission there was not an individual client but heaps of information over effects across an area for example, the HCCC didn't have a basis for issuing the warning.

So it's a technicality based on the references used. There is word also it could go back on appeal.

One good thing out of it tho is the OGLR decision, which is what is really hurting the AVN, was put forward and the judge found they had not obtained certiorari, in other words the HCCC stuff has nothing to do with the OGLR revocation of charity status and does not allow the AVN to have this reviewed.

[gruber]

the sensitive leader of the AVN is getting a bit pissy and bitching about censorship because American Airlines refuse to air one of their ads.

The funny thing is if you go to the AVN facebook page, post a peer reviewed scientic paper that shows how effective vaccination is or prove something that they dont agree with, you get abused, your comments deleted, then banned from the page

[gruber]

the AVN is getting possy because their not allowed to advertise everyones favourite acid "Black Salve"

[Blue Lightning]

Sad. The full case is here:

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/nsw/NSWSC/2012/110.html

The critical bit in the judgement is this (pars [58]-[60]):


58. The evidence referred to above tends to establish that Mr McLeod, one of the complainants, believed that the plaintiff's {i.e., AVN's} publications affected the decisions of a sizable portion of the local community whether to have their children vaccinated. It also tended to establish that the plaintiff wanted to influence such decisions and that its goals and activities were directed, at least in part, to that end. That the area from which the plaintiff operated was said to have lower rates of vaccination than the Commonwealth Government's targets, and which had apparently been achieved in respect of pertussis, provides some circumstantial evidence of a connection with the plaintiff, although alternative hypotheses, unexplored in the evidence, are available (for example, that people who settle in that area are more likely to eschew orthodox medicine, or that there was a particular incident which led to the decline).

59. Although I find that both complaints concern the health service that the plaintiff provides, the health service has not been shown to "affect the clinical management or care of an individual client". Although it might have that tendency, and although the plaintiff hopes to have that effect, I do not consider this to be sufficient to establish that it has had that effect.

60. I do not consider the evidence to be relied upon by the HCCC to be sufficient that there was such a causal link, or that any link could be established in respect of "an individual client". Had the HCCC apprehended that such would be required to found jurisdiction, it presumably could have readily obtained such evidence from one of the complainants. However, the ease with which it might have done so is not the test. It did not do so. As I have found, the evidence adduced before me is not sufficient to bring the complaints within s 7(1)(b) of the Act.

It's sad, because it seems that if the HCCC had led any evidence of an adverse effect on any individual decision concerning vaccination, it would have won. The Judge says that this could have been done "easily". For example, it could have been done by a survey. They might have found an affected individual. It's also sad because the failure of the HCCC to attend to obtaining this evidence came after their investigation into AVN. The finding establishes that, without that evidence, the investigation was outside of the HCCC's jurisdiction.

But there is some light here, depending upon the political will of the HCCC. It seems that all of the other prerequisites to the exercise of powers by the HCCC were met- certainly no others were challenged by AVN in this case. So, if there is another complaint in future, supported by the required evidence, then the processes of the HCCC can be properly engaged. And whilst, in this case, the HCCC sought only to publish a public warning about the AVN, it actually has much more extensive powers available to it, if it wants to exercise them.

Some of the earlier posts in this thread speak of the case being decided on a "technicality". In one sense that's right, but I think there was a matter of principle underlying the debate. Most of us will be familiar with the question of who should bear the onus of proving claims. In this case, who should have the onus of proving an effect or the absence of an effect on individuals. We're all familiar with the broader philosophical debate when it comes to stupid supernatural claims. But it seems to me that it is likely that the statute in this case has placed the onus on a complainant and the HCCC to establish an adverse effect on real patients for two reasons. First, to protect reasonably open clinical judgments of real medical practitioners, which may have to be made rapidly or in complex cases. Second, to protect freedom of speech. The former reason, although it was not as issue in this case, appears to have had a profound influence on why this law is cast in the form this it is. The latter reason was very much in play. In part, this law was designed to permit free speech, unless it could be proved to have the specified adverse effect.

So - here's a challenge to any practitioners of evidence based medicine operating in the same space as the AVN - can you provide evidence of the required adverse effect of AVN's actions?

If so, and if the HCCC still has the will to act, then, it's all over, red rover.

[DanDare]

RfdZTZQvuCo

Any takers for providing evidence for the previous post?

[Logic please]

Any takers for providing evidence for the previous post?
Looks like it. ;)
Most of us will be familiar with the question of who should bear the onus of proving claims. In this case, who should have the onus of proving an effect or the absence of an effect on individuals. We're all familiar with the broader philosophical debate when it comes to stupid supernatural claims. But it seems to me that it is likely that the statute in this case has placed the onus on a complainant and the HCCC to establish an adverse effect on real patients for two reasons. First, to protect reasonably open clinical judgments of real medical practitioners, which may have to be made rapidly or in complex cases. Second, to protect freedom of speech. The former reason, although it was not as issue in this case, appears to have had a profound influence on why this law is cast in the form this it is. The latter reason was very much in play. In part, this law was designed to permit free speech, unless it could be proved to have the specified adverse effect.

Sorry, but I think you've got that arse-about. While vaccines have known side-effects, the evidence in both overall and specific support of them is already well documented. Noting that this may be trumped by better evidence, in future.

IMO, the "burden or proof" is on AVN to prove its hysterical and dangerous claims, to a similar or better evidentiary standard than the one under which vaccines are approved for use in the first place.
So - here's a challenge to any practitioners of evidence based medicine operating in the same space as the AVN - can you provide evidence of the required adverse effect of AVN's actions?

If so, and if the HCCC still has the will to act, then, it's all over, red rover.
Is this (http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2009/s2674887.htm) something like what you're looking for?:
ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: While the world has focused its attention on swine flu, a different epidemic has been sweeping parts of Australia with deadly consequences.
The disease, whooping cough, has struck this year with a vengeance. Three babies have died and close to 19,000 cases have been reported.
And doctors warn it could get a lot worse if parents don't vaccinate their children.
This warning has reignited a fierce debate. The anti-vaccination group called the Australian Vaccination Network claims the inoculations are dangerous.
But health professionals say that campaign is based on fear not facts.
...
KIRSTIN MURRAY: Dana McCaffery is one of three babies who've died across the country this year from whooping cough. And in the same week she passed away in Lismore Base Hospital two other babies had to be airlifted to Brisbane for emergency treatment.
DR CHRIS INGALL, PAEDIATRICIAN: That is something I hope I never see again because each of those babies came close to death. There are still four cases a day - four notifications a day still rolling through in this valley alone. So it hasn't gone away. It's protracted and we're not winning.
KIRSTIN MURRAY: Five months on, what haunts the McCafferys is that they didn't they were living in a region with one of the lowest vaccination rates in the country. Since their daughter's death they've discovered up to one in three children in their NSW north coast community aren't vaccinated, three times less than the national average.
TONI MCCAFFERY: I would never have ever considered asking someone if they'd vaccinated their child, it's completely their business and I guess we've learnt the hard way that actually that choice does affect everybody around you.
KIRSTIN MURRAY: Paediatrician Chris Ingall threatened Dana McCaffery in hospital and sees a clear link between the region's low vaccination rate and Dana McCaffery's death.
...
KIRSTIN MURRAY: Doctors say mass-immunisation has been the most effective public health strategy ever launched in Australia.
Polio epidemics once struck with fierce consequences. More than 1000 died and tens of thousands more were paralysed.
But when a vaccination was introduced in the 1950s the disease was all but eradicated.
The story is the same for many once common children's ailments like measles, mumps and meningitis.
...
MERYL DOREY, AUSTRALIAN VACCINATION NETWORK: There are a huge range of toxins that are in vaccines and many of them have no place in the human body. Mercury has no place ...
KIRSTIN MURRAY: The stronghold of the anti-vaccination movement is based in the same neighbourhood as the McCafferys.
...
KIRSTIN MURRAY: According to UNICEF, immunisation averts more than two million deaths a year worldwide. But Dr Chris Ingall says the Australian Vaccination Network ignores this statistic.
DR CHRIS INGALL: Their work is negative, destructive and has no scientific basis. I wish they weren't here. Because this is the battle we have that in some sections of the community up here it's almost fashionable not to vaccinate, as if it didn't matter and it does matter.
MERYL DOREY: I think most doctors really believe in vaccinations. They've been taught to believe in vaccinations and they haven't done a whole lot of research on their own.
KIRSTIN MURRAY: Infectious disease specialist Professor Peter McIntyre says the Australian Vaccination Network manipulates research and statistics to argue its case.
PROFESSOR PETER MCINTYRE, IMMUNISATION RESEARCHER: It's been a real characteristic of the anti-vaccine movement in Australia claiming to be looking very extensively at the scientific evidence.
If you're someone like me whose job it is to spend their time going through a lot of this evidence then you realise that it really is a complete misinterpretation.
The link (http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2009/s2674887.htm) includes both full transcript and video.

[Blue Lightning]

Originally Posted by Logic please
IMO, the "burden or proof" is on AVN to prove its hysterical and dangerous claims, to a similar or better evidentiary standard than the one under which vaccines are approved for use in the first place.

As a matter of logic, or in a debate, you're correct.

My point was that, for the two reasons I mentioned, this law has been deliberately framed to impose an onus upon those who wish to invoke what is, to a significant degree, a disciplinary procedure against another.

PS - Love the Penn & Teller you tube clip! :thumbsup:

[Logic please]

As a matter of logic, or in a debate, you're correct.

My point was that, for the two reasons I mentioned, this law has been deliberately framed to impose an onus upon those who wish to invoke what is, to a significant degree, a disciplinary procedure against another.
Ahhh sorry, I misunderstood where you were coming from. :)

Is the link I provided along the lines of what you were thinking?

[Blue Lightning]

Is the link I provided along the lines of what you were thinking?


I'm bouncing between airports at the moment, so I'll have to take this question on notice. I'd like go back and remind myself of what the judgment reveals about the details of the evidence HCCC relied upon in the case, and then I'll get back to you.

[Blue Lightning]

LP, I think the answer to your question is no. I'm not sure that evidence of the type presented in the 7.30 Report is enough, in the way the Judge decided the case. There was evidence before the Judge to the effect that the statistics in northern NSW showed much lower rates of vaccination than the national average, that there was an epidemic there, and also that this is the region of Australia where AVN is most active. That's the gist of the 7.30 Report. That type of evidence, however, was not enough, because:

57. … alternative hypotheses, unexplored in the evidence, are available (for example, that people who settle in that area are more likely to eschew orthodox medicine, or that there was a particular incident which led to the decline).”

If you've been to Nimbin and Mullumbimby, you might not be able to immediately dismiss the first “unexplored hypothesis”!

Hence, the Judge decided that there had to be evidence which connected the actions of AVN with decisions in individual cases. No such evidence presented by HCCC in the case.

Interestingly, the Judge recorded that AVN conceded (in the event of a contingency that was, in fact, fulfilled) that it would lose the case if there had been such evidence:

27. ... the plaintiff {AVN} accepted ... that ... a complaint concerning a mother who had relied upon particular passages from the plaintiff's website to decide not to immunise her child could be a complaint under s 7(1)(b) since it could affect the care of an individual client {patient}. I took the plaintiff to accept that the making of such a complaint would confer jurisdiction on the defendant to assess and investigate it, notwithstanding that, in that scenario, the plaintiff might have neither knowledge nor understanding of the particular circumstances of the mother or the child and notwithstanding that it might be regarded as "information" rather than "advice". In that event, the causal connection would be established by an individual client relying on the information.

What was required, according to the Judge, was proof of such affect on an individual:

44. I consider that the words "clinical management or care of an individual client" are apt to refer to much more specific instances than the one postulated by the HCCC of a cohort of persons reading the plaintiff's website and taking its contents into account in deciding whether to vaccinate their children. Had Parliament intended complaints regarding the contents of such websites to be covered by s 7(1)(b), it would, in my view, have used broader words. It might, in that instance, have provided for complaints "concerning a health service that affects medical decisions made by clients of the health service". There would, in that event, have been no need for "the clinical management or care of an individual client" to be affected and no need for Parliament to use those words.

So, what is needed is evidence of an individual patient relying on the information.

I do want to add something to this analysis. I've seen footage of Dana McCaffery's case before, and it's heartbreaking. I think of my own little ones. The misinformation that AVN spreads is evil.

In many cases, however, saying something evil is not against the law: There are many protections in the law in aid of free speech.

[DanDare]

And in related news (http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/05/25/selling-bleach-as-a-cure-for-autism/)

The form of quackery, as you will recall, is known as the Miracle Mineral Solution (MMS). What it is, in essence, is industrial strength bleach, 28% sodium chlorite in distilled water. It is frequently diluted in acidic juices, such as orange juice, resulting in the formation of chlorine dioxide, which is, as the FDA characterized it, “a potent bleach used for stripping textiles and industrial water treatment.” According to its proponents, MMS can cure almost anything: cancer, AIDS, and just about any other serious disease you can imagine. Never mind that there is no biological plausibility and no evidence, either preclinical or clinical, that MMS can do what its proponents claim it can do. True, bleach can kill bacteria or cancer cells in a dish at a high enough concentration, but that doesn’t mean it’s a useful antibiotic or chemotherapeutic agent.
What condition, though, did I neglect? Well, given that this post is about Autism One, the answer should be obvious. Yep, as my reader pointed out, MMS is being featured in a talk at Autism One on Sunday by a woman named Kerri Rivera, who boasts of 38 Children Recovered in 20 months (http://www.autismone.org/content/38-children-recovered-20-months-autism-treatment-mms):
This presentation will outline the approach Kerri has used successfully to help recover 38 children from a diagnosis of Autism. She will explain how MMS (chlorine dioxide) has become the “missing piece” to the autism puzzle for so many of the families that she works with. MMS is available worldwide, and is extremely cost effective, bringing recovery in reach of all families, despite economic or geographic limitations. This presentation seeks to prove that Autism truly is curable.
Yes, Autism One is featuring a talk by a woman whose preferred form of therapy, besides hyperbaric oxygen, is to subject autistic children to industrial bleach in the deluded belief that she can “recover” autism with it.

[rayne]

Enema:
10-15 drops MMS enabled and 500 mL water
In the colon for 12 – 30 minutes
Use pipette and syringe
Is applied 2 or 3 times per week

Elsewhere, we see this:

Kerri will be discussing recent protocol developments around MMS and Autism, such as loading the dose, the baby bottle, the baking soda mix, enemas, baths, and how to handle a fever.

So let’s see. It appears to me that proponents of MMS not only give MMS to autistic children orally, but bathes them in it and gives them enemas with it. For example, get a load of this webinar about using MMS Jim Humble (the originator of MMS quackery) himself! Predictably, it starts with a “medical disclaimer” (i.e., quack Miranda warning) and then devolves from there:

And here we have Kerri explaining how to administer the MMS by continually upping the dose:

Update: The video channel seems to not be working

The latter video is pretty appalling. Well, they’re both appalling, but the second one is particularly bad because in it Rivera is describing how, as you up the dose, you’ll see the autistic child do more stimming. She also discusses how they might get diarrhea, but that that’s OK as long as it’s “detox diarrhea.” She even talks about these children having a Herxheimer reaction, which is sometimes seen after the initiation of antibacterials for tick borne relapsing fever. It was first describe as a reaction to the treatment of syphilis with penicillin and is also seen after treatment of other diseases caused by spirochetes, such as Lyme disease and leptospirosis. They talk about the “72-2″ protocol, which, if you look at the website, involves giving MMS every two hours for 72 hours. She also recommends “fever therapy” and argues that it’s a good thing that MMS can cause fevers because it’s “waking up the immune system” which realizes that there’s “autism in the house.” She also exults about how she “loves the enemas” so much for autism.



MMS Australia (http://www.mmsaustralia.com.au/index.php)
MiracleMineral.org (http://www.miraclemineral.org/)

The Master Mineral Solution of the 3rd Millennium

This book has been written by Jim Humble. Jim Humble runs this church (http://www.genesis2church.org/about/our-members.html)

He claims he has just returned from Africa where he successfully treated more than 800 HIV/AIDS cases.

[gruber]

more intellectual fortitude from meryl doyle


SIDS did not exist until the 1950s. What else happened in the 1950s? Oh, that's right! Mass vaccination.

[rayne]

Because correlation ALWAYS equal causation! <sarcasm>

[Xeno]

Not to mention that it was not called SIDS until we had eliminated most other obvious sources of neonatal death.

[DanDare]

And "cot death" is an old term.

[Xeno]

And Meryl Dorey is a scientifically illiterate dingbat.






Just thought I would mention that.

[EvilDRMike]

Oh please do not let me get started on the Anti Vaxers. These loons of epic proportions are a massive threat to western society more so than any terrorist threat, real or imagined.

EDM

[Logic please]

Not to mention that it was not called SIDS until we had eliminated most other obvious sources of neonatal death.
Yep, it apparently goes back somewhat later than the 1950's - LINK (http://www.scienceclarified.com/Sp-Th/Sudden-Infant-Death-Syndrome-SIDS.html):
The sudden death of a baby while sleeping, although tragic, is nothing new. It has a history of at least 2,000 years and is even mentioned in the Bible.
...
The first known medical textbook written during the second century A.D. by Greek physician Soranus of Ephesus instructs mothers and wet-nurses (female servants who were nursing or breast feeding their own child and who also would nurse the baby of their mistress or employer) never to sleep with infants in case they should accidentally fall asleep on the baby and somehow suffocate it.
References to "overlaying" are known to exist throughout the centuries, and it appears again and again in church records and doctors' records.
...
Nineteenth-century doctors naturally tried to explain scientifically these sudden deaths of babies, and one of the first such explanations was that the infant suffered from some sort of respiratory ailment. By the beginning of the twentieth century, sleep apnea (pronounced AP-nee-uh), in which a baby stops breathing for some reason but does not start up again, was considered a cause. By the 1930s, the role of infection was being considered, and by the 1940s, most American mothers were no longer taking their children to bed with them for fear of accidentally smothering them.
...
The first modern study of any and all of the factors that might be involved in a case of sudden infant death was done in 1956. By the late 1950s, many thought that such death was caused by some sort of abnormal function of the baby's breathing reflex. During the 1960s, many new theories were offered... In 1963, the first international conference on sudden infant death was held in Seattle, Washington, which produced not only more theories but also increased awareness on the part of the public... The definition also stressed that all possible known causes must have been ruled out by an autopsy, a death scene investigation, and a careful review
And such anti-vax scare-mongering has been specifically debunked (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_infant_death_syndrome#Vaccination):
Vaccination (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination) does not increase the risk of SIDS, and may reduce the risk slightly.[53] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_infant_death_syndrome#cite_note-Vennemann2007-52)[54] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_infant_death_syndrome#cite_note-CDCFAQ-53)
According to the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centers_for_Disease_Control_and_Prevention):
From 2 to 4 months old, babies begin their primary course of routine vaccinations. This is also the peak age for sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS). The timing of these two events has led some people to believe they might be related. However, studies have concluded that vaccines are not a risk factor for SIDS.
Any other questions, Meryl??? :headbang::rolleyes::facepalm:

[gruber]

Any other questions, Meryl???


there wouldnt be, if this was the facebook page you would be banned and your posts deleted then she would go and whine about censorship in another post

[gruber]

censorship in action

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/224803_10150965175393588_1497174278_n.jpg

[Sieveboy]

censorship in action

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/224803_10150965175393588_1497174278_n.jpg

Nice one Gruber.

/Topic Change

I walked around Gore Hill Cemetary in Sydney today, it's a closed for burial now, has been for about 50-60 years.

Consistent for the time there were a depressing number of tiny graves with comments like XX died 19 days old, or graves with womens names who died aged 19 - 25 (i.e. died in childbirth)

The one that got me walking out was a brother and sister, side by side, aged 10 and 5 who died within 8 days of each other in 1919, almost certainly Spanish Flu based on the dates. To many small graves (many of which were overgrown as well).

Fuck me, anti vaxxers should take a walk through places like that.

[rayne]

I think Orac says it best (http://oracknows.blogspot.com.au/2006/01/sociology-of-antivaccination-movement.html):

Now that major vaccine-preventable diseases have been largely controlled or eradicated, the benefit of vaccines in keeping disease at bay is no longer readily apparent in the daily experience of parents, leading to a situation where even the very small risk of serious adverse events from vaccination seems too high for a benefit that that parents cannot see for themselves.

[Sieveboy]

I think Orac says it best (http://oracknows.blogspot.com.au/2006/01/sociology-of-antivaccination-movement.html):



Yup. Such short memories we sometimes have.

[rayne]

The AVN tried to link vaccinations with Shaken Baby Syndrome (http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/02/07/the-vilest-antivaccine-lie-that-wont-die/) and equated them with child rape (http://reasonablehank.com/2012/01/05/meryl-doreys-fixation-with-child-abuse/). The question "Do you believe vaccine's cause SBS?" should be on standard IQ tests and if you answer "Yes", you fail at life. It's a good indicator of the sheer stupidity of some people.

[Lilith]

More Meryl Dorey and Judy Wilyman crap today - the Illawarra Mercury (contacted, I think, because it's the local newspaper to the University of Wollongong where Judy Wilyman is undertaking her PhD? Is that right?) is running a handful of related stories today - A summary of Judy Wilyman's insensitive comments (http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/news/local/news/general/vaccine-row-grieving-parents-slam-researcher/2585886.aspx) concerning Dana McAffrey who died of whooping cough at a few weeks old, an open letter from Dana's parents (http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/news/local/news/general/an-open-letter-from-toni-and-david-mccaffery/2585968.aspx) detailing how she died and why they agreed to raise awareness, a short and limp statement from the University of Wollongong (http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/news/local/news/general/uni-responds-to-antivaccine-views/2585887.aspx) in response to criticisms that Judy Wilyman uses her position as PhD candidate there to lend weight to her anti-vax garbage, and a short skit from a local mother who didn't vaccinate her children (http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/news/local/news/general/mums-crystal-clear-on-no-vaccinations/2585892.aspx).

[two dogs]

...
- the Illawarra Mercury (contacted, I think, because it's the local newspaper to the University of Wollongong where Judy Wilyman is undertaking her PhD? Is that right?)
...

Yes, the Illawarra Mercury is a Wollongong based, Fairfax Media owned newspaper.

[Xeno]

The poll to be found on the page linked by Lilith is currently running at 96.5% pro-vaccination. They do not state number of voters.

So, about one in every thirty Illawarra Mercury voters is a dingbat. Given that as a general statement about IM readers, many might be surprised the proportion is so low, which implies the tide actually runs against the anti-vaxxers.

[riddlemethis]

This whole topic is becoming infuriating to me. It doesn't matter how many fucking times you demonstrate their claims are patently untrue, they repeat them. I've just had a discussion on facebook with my distant cousin about this. Her child tragically died 20 yrs ago, within 14 days of vax. It was ruled SIDS, but dontchya know, it's an un-investigated vax injury. Her position: I'm all for safe vaccinating, but there's not enough research being done! I provide links to exactly the sort of research she thinks ought to be done & evidence that there's decades of such research & she doesn't acknowledge she could be wrong. It's like yelling into a cone of silence.

[Lilith]

Yes, the Illawarra Mercury is a Wollongong based, Fairfax Media owned newspaper.

Thanks, I thought that was the case. I can't remember if it was Chrys Stevenson's blog or reasonablehank that I was reading where someone mentioned that they'd be contacting this paper with the story - I think today's vaxx stories are the result.

@Xeno - the number of voters for that poll is just beneath the Nos - it's in teeny grey font and currently at 504 votes. Early this morning when it was only about 200 votes, it was 99.5% Yes .. so I think maybe the AVNers wake up a little later than the rest of us?

[Xeno]

.. so I think maybe the AVNers wake up a little later than the rest of us?
Quite a bit later, really.

[Darwinsbulldog]

This whole topic is becoming infuriating to me. It doesn't matter how many fucking times you demonstrate their claims are patently untrue, they repeat them. I've just had a discussion on facebook with my distant cousin about this. Her child tragically died 20 yrs ago, within 14 days of vax. It was ruled SIDS, but dontchya know, it's an un-investigated vax injury. Her position: I'm all for safe vaccinating, but there's not enough research being done! I provide links to exactly the sort of research she thinks ought to be done & evidence that there's decades of such research & she doesn't acknowledge she could be wrong. It's like yelling into a cone of silence.
Vaccination denial [not skeptacism], and it is denial, is the perfect crime. Premeditated murder. On Sunday night I watched a programme on ABC where several young women want to ruin their lives by worshipping absolutely sweet fuck all! :headbang: A teen woman crying herself to sleep because the fucking nunnery won't let her take family photos into their nuthouse for religious retards.
More of the same, as soon as faith-based thinking is allowed to dominate, misery follows, and death. Universities still have not acknowledged that in allowing theology schools, they contribute to death and ignorance. Because if you have a "discipline" called theology, then a Bachelor of Homeopathic "science" is equally as acceptable.
And politicians that begin their parliamentary sittings with prayer are not likely to think very critically on any of these matters. :facepalm:

[Blue Lightning]

One for the good guys:

COMPANION (AC) IN THE GENERAL DIVISION OF THE ORDER OF AUSTRALIA
Professor Ian Hector FRAZER, St Lucia Qld 4067
For eminent service to medical research, particularly through leadership roles in the discovery of the Human Papilloma Virus vaccine and its role in preventing cervical cancer, to higher education and as a supporter of charitable organisations ...

See page 3 of
http://www.gg.gov.au/res/file/2012/h...%20(final).pdf

Media coverage:

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/health/vaccine-is-a-girls-best-friend-gong-for-humble-scientist-whose-work-has-helped-multitudes-20120610-204h8.html

Vaccine is a girl's best friend: gong for humble scientist whose work has helped multitudes

[riddlemethis]

Standing ovation for Frazer. Because of him my daughter won't ever have to endure 5 rounds of lazer treatment & electrosurgical excision of lesions between age 20 & 25. He's a hero.

Also, check out this fantastic blog called SkewedDistribution (my new fave!) & particularly this brilliant post about how easily movements like anti-vax can begin
http://skeweddistribution.com/2011/09/12/how-do-rumors-get-started/

[DanDare]

But folic acid/autism is only make believe. What about the very real dangers of dihydrogen monoxide (http://www.dhmo.org/)? It can actually kill people that inhale it! And its used in many of our cooked foods and even tea and coffee :eek:

[gruber]

What about the very real dangers of dihydrogen monoxide (http://www.dhmo.org/)? It can actually kill people that inhale it! And its used in many of our cooked foods and even tea and coffee :eek:



*runs away screaming to panic room then seals the door*

[riddlemethis]

But folic acid/autism is only make believe. What about the very real dangers of dihydrogen monoxide (http://www.dhmo.org/)? It can actually kill people that inhale it! And its used in many of our cooked foods and even tea and coffee :eek:

No, it's not Dan! Didn't you read the links he supplied? ALL women are told to take folic acid during pregnancy & our food staples are full of it! There's no research being done to see what the outcomes of this are for our poor children! And this guy is an epidemiologist! Thank goodness he's brave enough to speak out against the Big Pharma's!

[rayne]

No, it's not Dan! Didn't you read the links he supplied? ALL women are told to take folic acid during pregnancy & our food staples are full of it! There's no research being done to see what the outcomes of this are for our poor children! And this guy is an epidemiologist! Thank goodness he's brave enough to speak out against the Big Pharma's!

I wonder why idiots that follow Meryl Dorey are always harping on about how BigPharma's want to inject children with harmful toxins!!! but not confectionery companies that make lollies and soft drinks that can give you diabetes or McDonalds that puts on weight or cigarette companies that produce cigarette because of second hand smoke. Are these idiots just interested in vaccines or does it apply to all products manufactured by pharmaceutical companies?

[AUSloth]

But folic acid/autism is only make believe. What about the very real dangers of dihydrogen monoxide (http://www.dhmo.org/)? It can actually kill people that inhale it! And its used in many of our cooked foods and even tea and coffee :eek:

I'm afeared what might happen if the homeopaths get hold of this DHMO


:p

[riddlemethis]

I wonder why idiots that follow Meryl Dorey are always harping on about how BigPharma's want to inject children with harmful toxins!!! but not confectionery companies that make lollies and soft drinks that can give you diabetes or McDonalds that puts on weight or cigarette companies that produce cigarette because of second hand smoke. Are these idiots just interested in vaccines or does it apply to all products manufactured by pharmaceutical companies?

Well, the answer is clearly no, because they think these diseases can just be allowed to reinstate themselves & be otherwise treated in the medical system. With drugs. :-| It's a logic blind spot in a veritable polka dotted swathe of them!

[DanDare]

I'm afeared what might happen if the homeopaths get hold of this DHMO


:p
Its terrifying that although the active ingredient in their "cures" is actually not present, and therefore harmless, dihydrogen monoxide is actually, really in their pills and elixirs in very high concentrations! And that is despite all the diluting that goes on!!!

[Aldaron]

What about the very real dangers of dihydrogen monoxide? It can actually kill people that inhale it! And its used in many of our cooked foods and even tea and coffee

Not to mention that it's lethal in all forms. It kills hundreds of thousands of people every year in its liquid form, can cause horrific burns in gaseous form, and has even been known to sink unsinkable ships in its solid form! :eek:

[gruber]

Pic from Stop the AVN

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/205354_10150997042663588_194340291_n.jpg

[rayne]

Meryl expects to be nailed to a cross for her claims?

[rayne]

I now know the taste of coffee coming out my nose, well done Mr Black.

The whole "Meryl the martyr" gimmick is getting old.

[wolty]

I now know the taste of coffee coming out my nose, well done Mr Black.

The whole "Meryl the martyr" gimmick is getting old.

Yeah, be nice to think that it will go the way of the dinosaurs. :)

[Loki]

Yeah, be nice to think that it will go the way of the dinosaurs. :)

Don't hold your breath. In todays news.

Parents fight it out in tussle over child jabs (http://www.optuszoo.com.au/news/top/news-com-au/parents-fight-it-out-in-tussle-over-child-jabs/704921)

A YOUNG girl is at the centre of a bitter tug-of-war in court by her parents over whether she should be vaccinated or not.

Her father sought an order in the Federal Magistrates Court to have her immunised, but the mother argued the national vaccination schedule was "potentially harmful".
and....


Anti-vaccination group the Australian Vaccination Network has launched a fundraising appeal to help non-vaccinating parents fight the courts.

"Such proceedings could very well result in orders being made providing for the young children to receive the full spectrum of vaccines in a catch-up schedule," said AVN founder Meryl Dorey, who is seeking $50,000 to help partners fight vaccination.http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af170/Sleipnir123/vaccinate-your-kids.gif

[blunt]

Pardon me for bumping up this thread, but last Saturday I met two new mums from Bellingen, lovely town, friendly people, but brain washed with New Age as fuck. These young mums were defiantly claiming how bad vaccinations, and how proud they are to have 'vaccinated' their kids by a homeopath or a naturopath or what the hell ever.

Coming from a totally different background (I grew up in Nepal where people die of not being able to vaccinate their kids, get medical treatment in time, mother/child dying during birth etc, it's a privilege reserved usually for the upper middle class), I was absolutely dumb founded when I found out the kind of things the otherwise lovely people from around Bellingen believe in.

Anti vaccination, Alternative medicine and absolute insistence on home birth/demonising hospital birth for the mother's birthing 'experience' has basically turned me off people into New Age completely.

I guess in the west, people have been living so well, so prosperously, so much comfort, to the point that they are now unable to recognize a threat when they see it.

They would not last that long in a third world for sure.

Perhaps some will say I am being too extreme but why are vaccinations not even compulsory yet in a first world country is beyond me. What about the child who could potentially be exposed to something? What if that child infected a lot of other children? Why such a blatant lack of responsibility? It should not even be up to the parents to decide whether or not they potentially could bring on a epidemic.

[Xeno]

I guess in the west, people have been living so well, so prosperously, so much comfort, to the point that they are now unable to recognize a threat when they see it. [/B]Yes.

I think it highlights the difference between imagination and fantasy.

[AUSloth]

@ blunt- the upcoming generation of the "west" will be more susceptible to the anti-vax woo if this article (http://m.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/students-tested-for-tb-on-campus/story-e6freoof-1226413231605) is anything to go by. Not having seen any sign of it at least one student at QUT was blissfully unaware even of the existence of TB until after possible contact with it at the campus.

[Logic please]

Meryl Dorey is being interviewed on 3aw (Melb) ATM, as part of an effort to "show both sides" in the "vaccination debate". :facepalm:

Amazingly, she has already been labelled "disingenuous" by the interviewer, within the first 5 minutes. Quelle surprise. :rolleyes:

[Sender of Eight]

Meryl Dorey is being interviewed on 3aw (Melb) ATM, as part of an effort to "show both sides" in the "vaccination debate". :facepalm:

Amazingly, she has already been labelled "disingenuous" by the interviewer, within the first 5 minutes. Quelle surprise. :rolleyes:

To be fair, there are two sides. It's just one of them is wrong, ignorant and harmful to society. Oh wait, sorry. "Not scientifically compatible, differently informed and contrasting with the prevailing attitudes." I'd like to see people get away with this kind of crap in physics or some other ultrahard scientific discipline.

[stevebrooks]

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/parenting/science-is-clear-vaccinate-children-says-research-biologist-sir-gustav-nossal/story-fnet08xa-1226523794828

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/parenting/deadly-outbreaks-feared-as-immunisation-rates-plunge/story-fnet08xa-1226523789892

I suspect the anti-vax campaign will die in the next few years, according to some reports I have read the inicidence of vaccination in children in Australia has already dropped below the threshhold for preventing the spread of serious childhood diseases like measles, while is a stupid and unnecessary way to prove a point, let alone being needlessly cruel and heartless, a serious epidemic will have vaccination rates way up again.

I would also expect at that time that the anti-vaxers will be facing law suites from parents whose children have succumbed to a preventable disease.

[prudie]

I think if parents don't want to vaccinate their children, then that is their choice. But they should be forced to fuck off and live on an island off the mainland so we can maintain the herd immunity. Meryl dorey should be canonised with a real fucking canon!

Sorry I have not had enough coffee yet this Monday morning.

Lol


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[Aldaron]

I guess in the west, people have been living so well, so prosperously, so much comfort, to the point that they are now unable to recognize a threat when they see it.


Blunt, if it's okay with you, I'm quoting this on my FB page. Brilliantly put.

[cyclist]

As much as I hate to say it, the anti-vax movement won't go away anytime soon.

FUD

Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt.

There are occasionally reports of children getting fucked up by vaccinations. I know that they're rare, and I also know that there is a known risk rate with any medical procedure. I also know that the risk of harm from vaccinations is substantially lower compared to the risk rate of the disease that they are protecting.

Now, I was never vaccinated against Small Pox. I remember in Year 5 (1989) when the teacher was talking about it and one kid in the class was vaccinated. He was because he had spent time in Papua New Guinea. On the same token, I had measles, but it was just like having chicken pox, I wasn't at risk of dying because I had been vaccinated. Most people having kids now won't have seen the danger that some of these diseases can have, so they won't see the benefit of having a potentially risky vaccine.

Compare HIV rates, I remember the ads with the Bowling Alley and Death. There was a reduction from that point on, but now, HIV is no longer the death sentence that it was, we can't cure it, but you can continue a pretty normal life after being diagnosed. As a result, HIV infection rates are on the rise as people are a lot more blase about preventing it.

[Sieveboy]

I think if parents don't want to vaccinate their children, then that is their choice. But they should be forced to fuck off and live on an island off the mainland so we can maintain the herd immunity. Meryl dorey should be canonised with a real fucking canon!

Sorry I have not had enough coffee yet this Monday morning.

Lol


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I would prefer the offending parents/guardians who don't vaccinate their children, (or themselves) to be slugged in the hip pocket via a higher medicare surcharge, lets say 10%, instead of 1.5% of income and have it kick in on any reportable income, ignoring the tax free threshold.

You would still have freedom of choice (and attendant consequences) and the rest of us would avoid paying for your dimwitted decision.

I do realise their is technical issues with this such as proving immunisation and the cost of such testing. But I think it would be worth it.

[prudie]

I am sure when I was a kid, I had to be vaccinatd before I could attend school in NSW


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[wibble]

I think if parents don't want to vaccinate their children, then that is their choice. But they should be forced to fuck off and live on an island off the mainland so we can maintain the herd immunity. Meryl dorey should be canonised with a real fucking canon!

Sorry I have not had enough coffee yet this Monday morning.

Lol


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I don't. "Choice" in parenting is over rated. Many parents are morons. Their poor kids will already have enough genetic and cultural baggage if their parents are stupid, without actually being exposed to dangerous pathogens for no good reason.

Pardon me for bumping up this thread, but last Saturday I met two new mums from Bellingen, lovely town, friendly people, but brain washed with New Age as fuck. These young mums were defiantly claiming how bad vaccinations, and how proud they are to have 'vaccinated' their kids by a homeopath or a naturopath or what the hell ever.

Coming from a totally different background (I grew up in Nepal where people die of not being able to vaccinate their kids, get medical treatment in time, mother/child dying during birth etc, it's a privilege reserved usually for the upper middle class), I was absolutely dumb founded when I found out the kind of things the otherwise lovely people from around Bellingen believe in.

Anti vaccination, Alternative medicine and absolute insistence on home birth/demonising hospital birth for the mother's birthing 'experience' has basically turned me off people into New Age completely.

I guess in the west, people have been living so well, so prosperously, so much comfort, to the point that they are now unable to recognize a threat when they see it.

They would not last that long in a third world for sure.

Perhaps some will say I am being too extreme but why are vaccinations not even compulsory yet in a first world country is beyond me. What about the child who could potentially be exposed to something? What if that child infected a lot of other children? Why such a blatant lack of responsibility? It should not even be up to the parents to decide whether or not they potentially could bring on a epidemic.

Absolutely. In fact, if it is a public health issue, adults shouldn't get the choice either. Same as seat belts, drink driving and any number of other public health issues.

Economic disincentives (higher medicare costs for example) should apply to stupid behaviour that costs society to fix (like smoking).

Legal disincentives should apply to behaviour that puts us all at risk.

[EvilDRMike]

I don't. "Choice" in parenting is over rated. Many parents are morons. Their poor kids will already have enough genetic and cultural baggage if their parents are stupid, without actually being exposed to dangerous pathogens for no good reason.



Absolutely. In fact, if it is a public health issue, adults shouldn't get the choice either. Same as seat belts, drink driving and any number of other public health issues.

Economic disincentives (higher medicare costs for example) should apply to stupid behaviour that costs society to fix (like smoking).

Legal disincentives should apply to behaviour that puts us all at risk.

Oh me too I agree. I really don't want my kids put at risk because someone is too stupid to understand very basic science. I hate that I have to hold my tongue in work environments where these f'd up woo mongers spread their vial stupidity with impunity but I cannot respond as responding is infringing their rights. And yes I have been bitten on this.

EDM

[Praxis]

Speaking of moronic parents, at least this Judge knew what was going on and ordered the child be vaccinated.

The idiot mother is lodging an appeal. She will lose.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/health/homeopathy-regime-is-rejected-as-judge-tells-parents-to-immunise-child-20121127-2a5uo.html#poll

Also, do the poll!

[Sieveboy]

Speaking of moronic parents, at least this Judge knew what was going on and ordered the child be vaccinated.

The idiot mother is lodging an appeal. She will lose.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/health/homeopathy-regime-is-rejected-as-judge-tells-parents-to-immunise-child-20121127-2a5uo.html#poll

Also, do the poll!

Voted in the poll. I would troll in the comments, but most wooists are getting roundly spanked by those who wish to share nothing more than opinions.

[Aldaron]

I just reposted that SMH article to my FB page...now watch me get blasted by some lunatic family members who think homeopathy is a valid science *sigh*

I don't *really* care, to be honest, but it does make things less comfortable at Christmas dinner. :)

[rayne]

I don't. "Choice" in parenting is over rated. Many parents are morons. Their poor kids will already have enough genetic and cultural baggage if their parents are stupid, without actually being exposed to dangerous pathogens for no good reason

Absolutely. In fact, if it is a public health issue, adults shouldn't get the choice either. Same as seat belts, drink driving and any number of other public health issues.

Economic disincentives (higher medicare costs for example) should apply to stupid behaviour that costs society to fix (like smoking).

Legal disincentives should apply to behaviour that puts us all at risk.

If the government introduced mandatory vaccines for public health - how quickly do you think it will take the slippery slopers to come out of the woodwork?

[Praxis]

I have had a tiler here all afternoon, doing the laundry. Lovely guy, he's done work for us before. Talks a blue streak, too.

Imagine my horror when the conversation (somehow) turned to things woo. I made a disparaging comment about anti-vaxxers (is there any other kind?) and he casually says "oh, we don't vaccinate our kids. My wife's a nurse. We're not stupid".

Well I'm sorry mate, but you are. And I told him so. And then I had to shut myself in my office for the rest of the afternoon in case I went right off because I really needed that tiling done!

A nurse who's an anti-vax nut. That's some scary shit right there, people :facepalm:

[rayne]

A nurse who's an anti-vax nut. That's some scary shit right there, people :facepalm:

I had one a few weeks back when I was in hospital. She spdnt ages telling me all about how she cured her kids of autism through a detox diet and got all the "toxins" out (couldn't tell me specifically what diet) and how she won't vaccinate kids and tells mothers not too after one of her kjds apparently developed autism through a vaccine. How anyone can do research on vaccine science and still believe anti-vax BS is beyond me.

[loubert]

I don't think this has been posted.
A opinion piece from the drum.

Former midwife.

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4396794.html

On my phone. Bit hard to cut paste etc.

[rayne]

I don't think this has been posted.
A opinion piece from the drum.

Former midwife.

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4396794.html

On my phone. Bit hard to cut paste etc.

Great article. Thanks. I have never ending arguments with the husband of an old school friend who isn't vaccinating their kid and it's suspected the kid has something on the autism spectrum, however the father doesn't want to address it because in his eyes it would mean that he has failed as a parent (also a kid having autism without being vaccinated tanks his "vaccines are a global conspiracy to make money and we really don't need to vaccinate because everyone around my kid is healthy and the rate of getting diseases in Australia is low" theories).

[Ces]

I do not advocate compulsory vaccination because there are risks associated with it. They are small, and I understand them to be smaller than the risks associated with not being vaccinated, but they exist. Like, um, another thread, the parents are charged with weighing the risks and making the choice.

The fact that the risks of not being vaccinated are so much higher than the risks of the jab seems to me to be so obvious and so important that there must be something else at work. Parents are not seeing the facts clearly. The rise of the internet and the easy dissemination of pseudo-science, mistrust of the power the big pharmaceutical companies are perceived to have, even the fact that you hate needles and you have to stick a big one into your little bundle of joy and make them cry, whatever it is, it is clouding the facts and some parents are making poor choices.

I like what someone said regarding slugging the parents of non-vaccinated children via the medicare rebate. Couple that with increased education about the risks of letting your children actually contract xyz and let the carrot and the stick do its work.

As an aside, I was cranky this morning about people not vaccinating their children and the kids asked me about it. I said my piece but cautioned them that my opinion was nothing more than that - opinion. This led to a detour about spotting false arguments and I said that when someone uses emotive language ("high modality" pipes up one kiddo) it should be a red flag and to check the facts carefully. I then read a nurse advocating vaccination in an opinion piece and using every bit of hyperbole she could muster. Groan. If you want to point to the science, then don't sound like a hysteric; it looks like your argument alone is not enough to convince.

[Dowser]

Don't think that the medical profession are immune to dabbling in the woo. I know some docs I could string up by their short and curlys for offering homeopathy/secret herbs and spices and being inactive in promoting immunization.

The thing that shits me at the moment is the "out clause" our government has open. If you want to receive tax benefits you have to:

a. immunize
b. have a doctor sign a medical contraindication form (eg. vaccine component allergy)
c. go to your doc and get a "conscientous objection form" signed off

The first 2 I have no probs with, but the last allows anyone to object without any valid reasons. The simplest way would be to let the last group of objectors NOT receive the family tax benefit. They'd forfeit quite a bit of money - sometimes in the thousands.

Here's a link to the current guidlelines
http://immunise.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/faq-related-payments

And a link to an example of the form we use
http://www.humanservices.gov.au/spw/customer/forms/resources/immu12-0807en.pdf

[Ces]

Thanks, dowser, I didn't know that money was already being used as an incentive.

Yes, take out the conscientious objector stuff and that looks good.

It only applies to welfare beneficiaries, though? Lots of middle-class fools out there as well.

[Dowser]

Thanks, dowser, I didn't know that money was already being used as an incentive.

Yes, take out the conscientious objector stuff and that looks good.

It only applies to welfare beneficiaries, though? Lots of middle-class fools out there as well.

I was under the assumption that the base rate is payable for any income, but I'm finding it hard to work out through the govt website. See if you can make anything of this :confused:

http://www.humanservices.gov.au/customer/enablers/centrelink/family-tax-benefit-part-a-part-b/ftb-a-income-test

[EvilDRMike]

I have had a tiler here all afternoon, doing the laundry. Lovely guy, he's done work for us before. Talks a blue streak, too.

Imagine my horror when the conversation (somehow) turned to things woo. I made a disparaging comment about anti-vaxxers (is there any other kind?) and he casually says "oh, we don't vaccinate our kids. My wife's a nurse. We're not stupid".

Well I'm sorry mate, but you are. And I told him so. And then I had to shut myself in my office for the rest of the afternoon in case I went right off because I really needed that tiling done!

A nurse who's an anti-vax nut. That's some scary shit right there, people :facepalm:

Snap. Another known anti-vax nurse, friend of my wife's. Really makes me scared.

EDM

[Ces]

I was under the assumption that the base rate is payable for any income, but I'm finding it hard to work out through the govt website. See if you can make anything of this :confused:

http://www.humanservices.gov.au/customer/enablers/centrelink/family-tax-benefit-part-a-part-b/ftb-a-income-test

You are right, you don't have to be a welfare beneficiary, but there is a table in the middle headed

Annual-income limit for payment of base rate of Family Tax Benefit Part A (http://www.humanservices.gov.au/customer/enablers/centrelink/family-tax-benefit-part-a-part-b/ftb-a-payment-rates)[1]

which I think shows the level where the benefit A cuts off.

[wibble]

I do not advocate compulsory vaccination because there are risks associated with it. They are small, and I understand them to be smaller than the risks associated with not being vaccinated, but they exist. Like, um, another thread, the parents are charged with weighing the risks and making the choice.

The fact that the risks of not being vaccinated are so much higher than the risks of the jab seems to me to be so obvious and so important that there must be something else at work. Parents are not seeing the facts clearly. The rise of the internet and the easy dissemination of pseudo-science, mistrust of the power the big pharmaceutical companies are perceived to have, even the fact that you hate needles and you have to stick a big one into your little bundle of joy and make them cry, whatever it is, it is clouding the facts and some parents are making poor choices.

I like what someone said regarding slugging the parents of non-vaccinated children via the medicare rebate. Couple that with increased education about the risks of letting your children actually contract xyz and let the carrot and the stick do its work.

As an aside, I was cranky this morning about people not vaccinating their children and the kids asked me about it. I said my piece but cautioned them that my opinion was nothing more than that - opinion. This led to a detour about spotting false arguments and I said that when someone uses emotive language ("high modality" pipes up one kiddo) it should be a red flag and to check the facts carefully. I then read a nurse advocating vaccination in an opinion piece and using every bit of hyperbole she could muster. Groan. If you want to point to the science, then don't sound like a hysteric; it looks like your argument alone is not enough to convince.

It's true that there are risks associated with pretty much any medical intervention. I have a close relative who most probably was brain damaged by a vaccine. But a medical opinion (i.e. Doctor's) rather than an ingnorant lay person's (i.e. Parent's) can be the judge of the safety.

As the risks are not just to the child (in medical ethics, this is also an issue of justice), and even then the child is not capable of autonomy (two factors where forced medical intervention can occur legally and ethically in other cases), the decision to have vaccines should not be the parent's. It is only like that because it is politically hard to sell any mandatory behaviour (as rayne suggests, slippery slope harbingers come out to play any time a government proposes any more control over anything).

Seat belt wearing is risky (my mother would likely be dead if she wore a seat belt in one accident), and the legal requirement to wear them is almost entirely based on the wearer's own health. It would make more sense in balancing autonomy and health to allow adults to choose to wear seat belts or not, but to keep it mandatory for children, than it does to allow adults to choose not to vaccinate their children. Not that I'm advocating making seat belt wearing optional, as it is a cheap and easy way to statistically save many more lives than it costs, much like vaccines.

[Ces]

Forcing children to wear seatbelts may potentially harm them. I do not have any data but my impression is that it does not if they are worn properly.

Vaccination can kill a child. Not many, hardly any at all, but sometimes one dies. If there is a risk that they may die I don't think it is right to force a parent to take that risk.

They should take the risk, every number says that it is miniscule risk and that it is far outweighed by the risks of disease, but I won't force someone to take it.

[Bolero]

Just on the issue of penalties, I believe most (all?) childcare facilities refuse to allow unvaccinated children to attend, which hopefully has some effect.


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[Aldaron]

I don't think this has been posted.
A opinion piece from the drum.

Former midwife.

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4396794.html

On my phone. Bit hard to cut paste etc.

Yep, great article. I just went to post it and saw you already had. I can't believe some of the comments. Seriously, some people are fucked up. I've posted a couple of replies in there (having to be extraordinarily polite so the ABC censors don't drop my posts), but I don't think it ever really matters.

What blows me away is that nearly every anti-vaxxer I've met hasn't been Cletus the Slack-Jawed Yokel. They've been otherwise intelligent, well-educated, middle-class professionals (teachers, nurses, etc) who should know the fuck better.

I suspect it's a case of having a little information, but not enough background to really understand it. I know people who argue for "homeopathic vaccination" because it "boosts the immune system", but

1) can't explain what "boost the immune system" actually means, and

2) simply don't understand that acquired immunity means the body now has "smart-bombs" that target specific diseases (this is how I've tried to explain it, in layperson's terms).

Without the background in physiology, biology and immunology, they don't have the resources to realise that B- and T-lymphocytes have to be exposed to antigens in order to develop antibodies to them, and that simply "making the lymphocytes tougher" doesn't cut it.

My most dumbed-down explanation I've used (with a little success, here and there) is to say the "boosting the immune system" is like taking a blindfolded man, getting him to work out and build up his muscles for a fight so that he can last longer. Vaccination is like taking off the blindfold.

[Bolero]

Without the background in physiology, biology and immunology, they don't have the resources to realise that B- and T-lymphocytes have to be exposed to antigens in order to develop antibodies to them, and that simply "making the lymphocytes tougher" doesn't cut it.

My most dumbed-down explanation I've used (with a little success, here and there) is to say the "boosting the immune system" is like taking a blindfolded man, getting him to work out and build up his muscles for a fight so that he can last longer. Vaccination is like taking off the blindfold.
Nice one, Aldaron. I might use this, if you don't mind (properly citing you as the source, of course!:)).

[Sieveboy]

I have had a tiler here all afternoon, doing the laundry. Lovely guy, he's done work for us before. Talks a blue streak, too.

Imagine my horror when the conversation (somehow) turned to things woo. I made a disparaging comment about anti-vaxxers (is there any other kind?) and he casually says "oh, we don't vaccinate our kids. My wife's a nurse. We're not stupid".

Well I'm sorry mate, but you are. And I told him so. And then I had to shut myself in my office for the rest of the afternoon in case I went right off because I really needed that tiling done!

A nurse who's an anti-vax nut. That's some scary shit right there, people :facepalm:

Snap. Another known anti-vax nurse, friend of my wife's. Really makes me scared.

EDM

You think they would get the hint about vaccines when most hospitals (if not all) require nurses to demonstrate they are vaccinated to work at said hospital. :facepalm:

[RANT] Hearing of such imbeciles in such a position makes me nervous, I have a good friend in hospital right now for a very rare type of lymphoma (Oncologist has never treated it before...) she has the last of her chemo as we speak, then bone marrow transplants with all the attendant requirements for her to be isolated. All things crossed, she is out before Christmyth. If some snotty nosed unvaccinated kid (or nurse) gets her sick with their entirely preventable illness... I will seriously consider making it my mission to ruin that kids parents (no violence or unethical/illegal behavious, but they will not be happy).

[/END RANT]

[gruber]

the latest from the australian anti-vaccination network

http://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/255190_10151287726993588_1658220986_n.png

[Loki]

Someone posted this elsewhere but it's relevant here.

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af170/Sleipnir123/polio.jpg

"INFANTILE PARALYSIS. (Poliomyelitis) Infantile Paralysis is very prevalent in this part of the city. On some streets many children are ill. This is one of those streets: KEEP OFF THIS STREET".

So much for the power of good diet and natural immune system building. How much of this current stupidity is due to moronic parents who have never seen a proper epidemic or it's effects?

Complacency derived from smug stupidity.

[Strato]

I was so fortunate to have administered the polio vaccine Jonas Salk developed, in its first round in Australia. I was 5, in Melbourne. I recall seeing kids in calipers and adults deformed, like a foot just below the hip. The worry for mothers with newborns. No longer.

Before measles vaccines my brother suffered a damaged eye. He had to wear a patch over his good eye as a strategy to strengthen the damaged one. That didn't work. Prevention is better than cure. Medical developments are the good news stories.

[prudie]

the latest from the australian anti-vaccination network

http://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/255190_10151287726993588_1658220986_n.png

To be expected. At least merl does learn some lessons and didn't equate it to raping a child this time!


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[DanDare]

Can some one with real medical knowledge confirm this for me. I have always understood that if enough kids in a community are not immunised it can lead to a strong outbreak which may infect the immunised kids anyway.

If that is the case then there is a strong argument for requiring mandatory immunisation.

[Aldaron]

Can some one with real medical knowledge confirm this for me. I have always understood that if enough kids in a community are not immunised it can lead to a strong outbreak which may infect the immunised kids anyway.

If that is the case then there is a strong argument for requiring mandatory immunisation.

Each time you are exposed to a pathogen, there is a chance you will contract the disease. Vaccination drastically lowers the chance, but most are not 100% effective - different people have different levels of acquired immunity. The more times you're exposed, the more likely it is that you'll eventually get an unlucky roll of the dice, so to speak.

If you have 99% effective coverage, for example, you'd (on average) have to encounter 100 infected people to actually contract the disease. If you encounter a thousand infected people, you're ten times more likely to contract it. Thus, the more infected people in the community, the greater your chance of contracting the disease.

What is generally more important as far as herd immunity goes, however, is that there is a certain percentage of the population that cannot be immunised. Some people are allergic to the vaccine's components. Most of the time, pregnant women shouldn't be vaccinated, and newborn babies are simply too young, at least for some vaccines (eg: whooping cough).

Having most people who can be immunised...well, immunised...means there is less chance that one of these at-risk individuals is less likely to encounter an infected person and therefore contract the diease.

[DanDare]

Thanks Alderon. Very clear.

[Logic please]

Can some one with real medical knowledge confirm this for me. I have always understood that if enough kids in a community are not immunised it can lead to a strong outbreak which may infect the immunised kids anyway.

If that is the case then there is a strong argument for requiring mandatory immunisation.
No specific medical expertise here, but I think this falls under the heading of herd immunity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity):
Herd immunity (or community immunity) describes a form of immunity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immunity_(medical)) that occurs when the vaccination (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination) of a significant portion of a population (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population) (or herd) provides a measure of protection for individuals who have not developed immunity.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity#cite_note-1) Herd immunity theory proposes that, in contagious diseases (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contagious_disease) that are transmitted from individual to individual, chains of infection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infection) are likely to be disrupted when large numbers of a population are immune or less susceptible to the disease. The greater the proportion of individuals who are resistant, the smaller the probability that a susceptible individual will come into contact with an infectious individual.
Vaccination acts as a sort of firebreak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firebreak) or firewall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firewall_(construction)) in the spread of the disease (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease), slowing or preventing further transmission of the disease to others.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity#cite_note-Fine-3) Unvaccinated individuals are indirectly protected by vaccinated individuals, as the latter will not contract and transmit the disease between infected and susceptible individuals.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity#cite_note-Smallpox-2) Hence, a public health policy of herd immunity may be used to reduce spread of an illness and provide a level of protection to a vulnerable, unvaccinated subgroup. Since only a small fraction of the population (or herd) can be left unvaccinated for this method to be effective, it is considered best left for those who cannot safely receive vaccines because of a medical condition...
...
No vaccine offers complete protection, but the spread of disease from person to person is much higher in those who remain unvaccinated.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity#cite_note-4) It is the general aim of those involved in public health (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_health) to establish herd immunity in most populations. Complications arise when widespread vaccination is not possible or when vaccines are rejected by a part of the population. As of 2009[update] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herd_immunity&action=edit), herd immunity is compromised in some areas for some vaccine-preventable diseases, including pertussis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pertussis) and measles and mumps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy), in part because of parental refusal of vaccination.

EDIT: ninja'd by Aldaron, a looooong time ago. :D:)

[Dowser]

Here's an intersting read from a site I visit frequently

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/herd-immunity/

Its interesting to note that herd immunity affects asymptomatic carriers of pathogens which reduce the burden of exposure to suspectible individuals

[wibble]

the latest from the australian anti-vaccination network

http://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/255190_10151287726993588_1658220986_n.png

This response is actually a good argument for making vaccinations compulsory. People will somehow think a court is not entitled to rule like this, in individual cases. But if it was "law", more people would accept when a court has to enforce the "law" and would see deviating from the law out of "choice" as less acceptable. Much like with seat belts.

Of course, courts rule all the time on medical interventions, against parent's wishes. It is neither undemocratic or unethical for them to do so (or immoral, I'm not sure of the distinction here, I think MD just wanted to add to the word count for dramatic effect- I'm not sure a court can be properly said to have morals).

Blood transfusions are a potentially lethal intervention (as most medical procedures are) that are enforced by courts on children of religious parents who refuse to allow them.

Courts are an important and entrenched part of our democratic system, and complaining that they have made an undemocratic decision ironically smacks of wanting our democratic system to bend just for you.

The ethics of their decisions are made by listening to experts, and can be challenged, and are open to public scrutiny. As opposed to parenting decisions based on a lack of knowledge about biology.

It is interesting also that MD points out the child is "healthy", as if this should obviate the need for a "medical intervention", completely missing the concept that the intervention is preventative. This is exactly the same as complaining that people with intact spines and skulls don't need to wear seat belts since they are healthy (in response to Ces, I'm not sure any statistics are available, but it is not too difficult to imagine scenarios where properly fitted seat belts end up killing the occupant- no doubt these are rare, but it does not mean the statistically sound choice of wearing seat belts should not be backed up by law). Nevertheless, even if the child is healthy, having a vaccine will almost certainly increase their health, as they will then have an immune system more able to fight a disease.

I also note that MD considers issues of public health and justice to be "goose step"ping together. Is this like driving on the same side of the road is just "goose stepping" together? Medical professionals try their best to respect autonomy but in medical ethics, justice considerations will almost always trump the other values. Try getting tuberculosis and complaining that you are being quarantined just to fit "the system" and see how far you get.

[Sender of Eight]

A lot of this sort of stuff is linked into the other half of modern woo, all that New Age crap. Vaccination is bad because "Big Pharma" is what is behind it. It's all the 'system' and it 'suppressing natural remedies' blah blah conspiracy blah. I'd liken the situation of the anti-vacc people to saying 'Why does my home need to be fire safe? It's never burnt down before now!' when there is a serial arsonist in town. It's just as stupid as 'quantum healing crystals', but insidiously more appealing because people think that for some reason defying all medical knowledge means they are a trailblazing non-conformist, rather than simply someone who is overwhelmed by and doesn't understand modern medicine.

[Logic please]

It's just as stupid as 'quantum healing crystals', but insidiously more appealing because people think that for some reason defying all medical knowledge means they are a trailblazing non-conformist, rather than simply someone who is overwhelmed by and doesn't understand modern medicine.
+1.

FWIW, perhaps it's also appealing partly because it feeds into some myth of genetic/biological or child-rearing specialness in parent's heads?

The irony is that if non-immunised children do happen to avoid those illnesses, they're either gob-smackingly lucky, or the passive beneficiaries of herd immunity, or both. All the better for them to bang on about what a great pure, natural immune system their *little treasure* has, all over teh interwebz. :rolleyes::facepalm:

[rayne]

Clicky (http://m.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/minister-orders-anti-vaccination-group-to-change-its-name/story-fndo2dsc-1226537155195)

It's about time. Took long enough.

A CONTROVERSIAL anti-vaccination lobby group has been slapped with an order to change its misleading name or be shut down.

The NSW Office of Fair Trading doorstopped the home of Australian Vaccination Network president Meryl Dorey yesterday with a letter of action, labelling the network's name misleading and a detriment to the community.

NSW Fair Trading Minister Anthony Roberts fired a broadside at the AVN, saying the information it provided was a public safety issue of "life and death".

[Sieveboy]

Clicky (http://m.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/minister-orders-anti-vaccination-group-to-change-its-name/story-fndo2dsc-1226537155195)

It's about time. Took long enough.

Indeed. Way too long

[gruber]

the avn website is giving 403 error and this is the batshit crazy persons response

Distributed denial of service attack - we have a range of IP addresses (computer identifiers) for those responsible for the attack and are currently analysing them. But if they use an proxy server as most people who know what they're doing in this case do, there is very little chance of tracing who is responsible without help from the authorities and since i personally believe that the authorities would most likely support anyone who tries to close down the AVN or to damage us in any way, I don't expect that there will be a whole lot of help from that quarter!

Yes, that is also the job of those who don't want anyone to be able to discuss the issue of vaccination. The Web of Trust (now there is a name that should be changed for sure!) has been manipulated by these people - just click ignore this warning and you will go through to the blog.



and some crap about how freedom is being attacked

[Glob]

Clicky (http://m.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/minister-orders-anti-vaccination-group-to-change-its-name/story-fndo2dsc-1226537155195)

It's about time. Took long enough.

Great news.

However, I am concerned that they will get away with using an alternative name that is still misleading. I can't see the AVN voluntarily changing their name to something with 'Anti-Vaccination' in it.

[gruber]

http://www.australiandoctor.com.au/news/latest-news/head-of-anti-vaccination-group-steps-down

Meryl Dorey, the face of the Australian Vaccination Network, has stepped down as president of the organisation.
However, the group says it will continue to exist and Ms Dorey's decision has nothing to do with a looming name change ordered by NSW Fair Trading.

[Sir Patrick Crocodile]

Great news.

However, I am concerned that they will get away with using an alternative name that is still misleading. I can't see the AVN voluntarily changing their name to something with 'Anti-Vaccination' in it.
Then what's going to happen is that NSW Fair Trading (or a federal agency with suitable authority) will (and should) clamp down on that. It's possibly also a Section 18 (formerly Section 52) offence (Australian Consumer Law (http://www.consumerlaw.gov.au/content/the_acl/downloads/ACL_guide_to_provisions_November_2010.pdf)) which prohibits misleading and deceptive conduct. And I suppose one could argue this is misleading and deceptive conduct.

[Praxis]

What great news! Still, she's trained an army of zombies so there'll be another one along any moment now.

Dr Rachel Dunlop will be on The Project tonight (Channel 10 6.30 pm) to talk about "marvellous measles".

Here is a book (http://naturematters.info/) actively promoted by the Anti Vaccination Network (forced to change their name, they really should go for Anti and that way they can keep their acronym. Sweet!).

Dr Rachy will be challenging that.

[dilbadoon]

Just need to vent at the moment, I was banned from the AVN facebook page, for asking why they are afraid of transparency :(. It all started due to this great addition they have been required to make to their facebook page. http://i.imgur.com/OME58uY.png?1
I actually thought I conducted myself quite reasonably and politely, however despite their claims that "every issue has two sides" apparently my side was worthy of censorship. Not really surprised or bothered, but it really helped me to understand why I oppose these types of organisations. They target people who are likely vulnerable, but if that's not enough they intentionally present themselves as some kind of independent unbiased information source. I can't imagine how scary it would be having kids, especially if it's your first, and this gang of crooks seems to feed on this fear. They especially seem to have an absorbing audience from parents of autistic kids. The biggest problem I have with them is that they are certain the promotion of vaccines is a government conspiracy, but they can't tell me to what end. They are convinced vaccines cause autism (my daughter was vaccinated, and she is autistic, what more proof do you need) but how the hell would it be in the governments interest to increase the number of autistic people?!
I am just so lost trying to figure these kooks out. :confused:

[Coryate]

You are in good company being banned from the AVN facebook page. They don't really go in for deep questioning.

[rayne]

Let's see how long my comment lasts. I was actually surprised at the amount of people who were saying "What's in a name? I don't see the issue here" the issue is that it is directly misleading the public, you numbnut.

http://atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3069&stc=1&d=1364271630

[Logic please]

The AVN are at it again :puke: - LINK (http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/australian-medical-association-angered-over-claims-by-president-of-the-australian-vaccination-network/story-fneszs56-1226635598207):
Australian Medical Association angered over claims by president of the Australian Vaccination Network (news.com.au)
A LEADING anti-vaccination group has sparked alarm by warning parents not to trust their doctor's advice on whether to have their children vaccinated.
The new president of the Australian Vaccination Network (AVN) Greg Beattie says parents should instead consult books and "health professionals who maybe aren't in the medical mainstream''.
And he warns parents who do vaccinate their children they may be "jeopardising their children's health''.
As concerns mount that 70,000 Australian children have not been vaccinated and conscientious objection rates are rising, Mr Beattie says his advice to parents is: "Don't trust the judgement of your GP.''
"If you read one good book on vaccinations you'll probably know ten times more than your average GP,'' he told News Limited in an exclusive interview."I'm not saying don't talk to your GP, I'm saying don't rely on them for your decision, you need to know they are handed their adopted stance. They are taught what to say about vaccination ... look into it yourself and then make up your mind,'' he said.
Australian Medical Association chief Dr Steve Hambleton expressed outrage that the AVN was "running down the skills of doctors each of whom has spent a decade in training''.While he urged parents to self-,Dr Hambleton said they should do so using trusted sources such as the Academy of Science's booklet The Science of Immunisation or the Australian Immunisation Handbook or the Immunise Australia website.
...
The AVN leader said he didn't believe that parents who don't vaccinate their children are putting their lives at risk."I think there is a possibility, in fact, that parents who do vaccinate their children are quite possibly jeopardising their children's health,'' he said.Some children are more susceptible than others the physical deterioration after vaccination and this is "something that one day science will catch up with'', he says.Mr Beattie denies that immunisation is responsible for the dramatic reduction in killer infectious diseases in the last century.
...Health Minister Tanya Plibersek backed doctors and healthcare professionals, saying through a spokesman dismissing their help could be a serious risk."Doctors and health professionals are the best people to talk to about vaccination," the spokesman said. "Ignoring their advice and relying on unscientific opinion can have serious consequences."Hmmm... wonder if the AMA has any potential recourse under defamation laws? One might suspect that the AVN's claims are a reaction to this news yesterday - LINK (http://www.smh.com.au/comment/jabs-fly-in-fight-to-raise-rates-of-vaccination-20130504-2iznb.html): Jabs fly in fight to raise rates of vaccination (smh.com.au) Wing-nuts, flat-earthers, weird, wacky and wrong. Wilful manslaughter. Potentially murderous. The language in the NSW Parliament condemning the Australian Vaccination Network and its hijack of the internet to spread an anti-vaccination message couldn't have been stronger. Both sides of politics piled it on.Vaccination rates are plummeting in Sydney. The childhood diseases measles and whooping cough are resurgent. ''Young people die because of the information [AVN] provides and it should be held to account,'' Clayton Barr, the Labor member for Cessnock, said in support of a O'Farrell government bill.



...
Vaccination rates plummeted in Britain a decade ago after a now discredited medical journal report linked the measles vaccine with autism. While vaccination rates there have since risen, unvaccinated 10- to 14-year-olds are the biggest group falling ill this year.

Long after the original autism article in The Lancet was retracted and its author deregistered, the claims reverberate unchecked around the internet and social media, particularly here in Australia. Type ''Australia'' and ''vaccination'' into Google and the website of the misleadingly named Australian Vaccination Network, the stridently anti-vaccination group spearheading the movement here, comes up as the second result. The NSW Health vaccination website now appears in the top spot - a paid ad - only because the government is spending $122,000 on search marketing this month to beat the anti-vaccinators at their game in an effort to provide factual information to parents.




Vaccination rates of 90 per cent for children aged one and two in NSW - uncomfortably below the 95 per cent recommended by the World Health Organisation for ''herd immunity'' - has prompted government action.
Measles swept through south-western Sydney last year, with 172 young children falling ill. It was the worst outbreak in a decade.

[c2105026]

Been a bit of talk about that in local paper.

[wearestardust]

res ipsa loquitur (if I may be allowed to use it not in the usual context):

http://www.tga.gov.au/industry/advertising-reg9-2012-04-022-black-salve.htm

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Logic please]

res ipsa loquitur (if I may be allowed to use it not in the usual context):

http://www.tga.gov.au/industry/advertising-reg9-2012-04-022-black-salve.htm

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
Noice:
The Panel found that sections 4(1)(a), 4(1)(b), 4(2)(a), 4(2)(b), 4(2)(c), 4(2)(d), 4(2)(e)(ii), 4(2)(f), 4(2)(g), 4(2)(h), 4(2)(i), 4(5), 4(7), 5(1) and 6(3) of the Therapeutic Goods Advertising Code 2007 (the Code) and section 42DL(1)(g) of the Therapeutic Goods Act 1989 (the Act) were breached in relation to the advertisement on the website. The discussion in relation to these breaches is at paragraphs 12-33 of the Panel's determination which may be accessed from the Panel's Complaint Register - Complaint No. 2012/04/022 (http://www.tgacrp.com.au/index.cfm?pageID=13&special=complaint_single&complaintID=2081).
The Delegate concluded that the advertisement, which was the subject of the complaint, breached sections 4(1)(a), 4(1)(b), 4(2)(a), 4(2)(b), 4(2)(c), 4(2)(d), 4(2)(e)(ii), 4(2)(f), 4(2)(g), 4(2)(h), 4(2)(i), 4(5), 4(7) and 5(1) of the Code and section 42DL(1)(g) of the Act.
It might have been easier to list the sections of the Act not breached. Just sayin'... ;)

[AUSloth]

This weeks report from Dr Rachie on the Skeptic Zone contains excerpts from the NSW parliament discussing the AVN. Both sides of the floor seem to be roundly condemning the AVN ( a bit of "band wagon" by the pollies) after years of work put in by private citizens to expose the AVN, and a failed case at the ACCC. As a direct result of the AVN's counter suit of the ACCC a bill was introduced giving more powers to the ACCC not significant just to the AVN but all alt-med woo pushers.
Starts about 4 minute in
Skepticzone (http://skepticzone.libsyn.com/webpage/2013/05)

[Freethinkeroz]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-19/push-to-ban-unvaccinated-children-from-nsw-preschools/4698786

[Logic please]

@FTO: a short summary of link subject/contents would be appreciated in future, please. :) Glad that someone put this up, I was on my way to do so :thumbsup::
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-19/push-to-ban-unvaccinated-children-from-nsw-preschools/4698786
For reference:
Legislation to allow childcare centres to ban children who are not vaccinated is being introduced to increase immunisation rates in New South Wales.
The State Opposition says it will consult the childcare sector and public on the draft bill, which will allow preschools to choose whether to accept children who are not immunised.
The change is being proposed to encourage parents to vaccinate their children and prevent the spread of preventable diseases.
...
"Those who choose not to have their children immunised will be able to choose a preschool, one that accepts children that aren't immunised."
But anti-vaccination campaigners say allowing childcare centres to ban children who are not immunised is a backward step in democracy.
Greg Beattie from the Australian Vaccination Network, which opposes immunisation, says it could trick parents into vaccinating.
"I imagine it probably will because what happens with all of these things is that parents become confused, and the way that this law will be marketed to the community is, 'oh we now have compulsory vaccination'," Mr Beattie said.
"So parents will start to think they have to do these things to get their children into childcare or to get them into preschool."

[prudie]

Dr Rachie was on the Project

f_Xtd8Jh0LE

[Soup Dragon]

I like Dr Rachie - she always speaks a lot of sense :)

Interesting that The Project have a policy of not giving a voice to the anti-vaxxers.

I actually do feel like the tide is turning. Maybe I'm in a way too optimistic mood this morning.

[AUSloth]

An SBS sponsored documentary regarding vaccination "Jabbed" (http://www.sbs.com.au/shows/jabbed) is on Sunday night on SBS. For Dr Rachie's interview with the maker see the current Aus Skeptic pod. (http://skepticzone.libsyn.com/webpage/2013/05)

[Sten]

Dr Rachie was on the Project

f_Xtd8Jh0LE


Thanks for the video prudie. The idea that air time should not be given to the anti vaxers may be analogous to Richard Dawkins example when asked why he does not want to debate creationists. In a discussion about human reproduction you would not give air time to someone who was arguing in favor of the stork theory. :facepalm:

PS: I noticed that your looks have improved prudie. I was wondering if there was a common theme here - beings with similar intelligence perhaps? :D

[stevebrooks]

These are the sorts of people that will make a difference to this madness. Personally I think the AVN should be held responsible and charged over the attacks and suffering this woman has endured;

http://www.news.com.au/national-news/grieving-mother-toni-mccaffery-was-vilified-by-anti-vaccination-bullies/story-fncynjr2-1226650600820

Four years of this;


They have been accused of lying about their daughter's death and being part of a conspiracy to force vaccinations on others.

Ms Dorey also demanded medical reports from public health officials the day before the four-week-old baby's funeral on March 13, 2009.

"They hated us because our child died," Ms McCaffery said. "We were being told you're horrible and you'll kill other people, diminishing what my child went through, that she was weak anyway and it was natural selection."

And of course to make it worse we have the religious nutters getting in on the act as well;

The email reads: "It must be tragic to lose a daughter and I wish you all sympathy and trust that God delivers unto you. We find it amazing that some people firmly believe that God was not perfect.


"Apparently, according to these people, God forgot to add the heavy toxic metals, pig cells, chicken cells etc that are found in vaccines, sorry, but I believe Dana passed away because of different reasons than you claim. All the same, please accept my sympathy for your tragic loss."


They find it amazing that god is not thought to be perfect by everyone?? Surely they would be even more amazed to find that some don't believe in god at all!

And apparantly to make them even more culpable, they have this poor womans contact details included on the AVN website, as an atheist I rarely run across something that I would consider evil, but sometimes evil just does exist;

One man, a regular on AVN forums, emailed the family via Dana's website.

[prudie]

These are the sorts of people that will make a difference to this madness. Personally I think the AVN should be held responsible and charged over the attacks and suffering this woman has endured;

http://www.news.com.au/national-news/grieving-mother-toni-mccaffery-was-vilified-by-anti-vaccination-bullies/story-fncynjr2-1226650600820

Four years of this;






And of course to make it worse we have the religious nutters getting in on the act as well;



They find it amazing that god is not thought to be perfect by everyone?? Surely they would be even more amazed to find that some don't believe in god at all!

And apparantly to make them even more culpable, they have this poor womans contact details included on the AVN website, as an atheist I rarely run across something that I would consider evil, but sometimes evil just does exist;


What they did to that family was truly despicable
To grieve the loss of a child would be heartbreaking enough, without these animals feeding off their pain

[Logic please]

What they did to that family was truly despicable
To grieve the loss of a child would be heartbreaking enough, without these animals feeding off their pain
Yes... despicable is the word. The self important-arrogance is astounding (http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/grieving-parents-speak-out-against-anti-vaccination-extremists/story-e6freon6-1226650422913):
The invasion of the McCafferys' grief started the day before they buried their baby girl. Meryl Dorey, who heads up the Bangalow-based Australian Vaccination Network, rang the head of the North Coast Area Health Service, Paul Corben, to demand Dana McCaffery's autopsy reports.
She wanted proof that Dana actually died of whooping cough. Dorey has no medical training, but she wrote this on a blog defending her actions.
"When this little girl's death was announced, the media were reporting several things that made me question that this baby had actually died of whooping cough. I contacted the head of the public health unit and asked if this case of pertussis (whooping cough) had been laboratory diagnosed."
She was told it had been a quick test but pushed further, wanting to know if there was a bacterial culture.
She was denied the information.
"To my mind, while an entire community of conscientious objectors were being victimised by the government and the media and being blamed for the death of a child who was too young to be vaccinated, I had every right to ask for this information," Dorey wrote. (my emphasis)
No, they fucking well didn't. :headbang: That they did, demonstrates how blinkered to basic realities they really are.

It is welcome to see the feds getting in on addressing this public health threat (http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/national/dr-google-cant-be-trusted-with-childs-health/story-fnii5s41-1226650596663):
HEALTH Minister Tanya Plibersek has blamed "Google medicine" as a factor in some parents choosing not to vaccinate their children.
Ms Plibersek, who is launching a new edition of the Immunisation Myths And Realities booklet for general practitioners today, said only a small proportion of parents were hard-core vaccine refusers.
She blamed the internet for helping to spread baseless theories including a link between vaccines and autism that had been "completely disproven".
"Dr Google has been a negative influence in this debate. Instead of giving credence to thoroughly disproved theories, parents should read about the myths and realities of vaccination in this booklet and talk to their GP," she said.
A mother of three, Ms Plibersek said she understood the reluctance of some new mums to take their babies for an injection but said the benefits far outweighed the risks.

[Logic please]

"Jabbed: Love, Fear and Vaccines" was screened on SBS tonight - LINK (includes full video) (http://www.sbs.com.au/shows/jabbed).

Interestingly, they looked at a few cases where "vaccine problems" had been reported. In two of them, inflammation/immune response arising from the vaccine triggered a pre-existing rare genetic defect in the affected persons. In India, unrelated deaths were blamed on a vaccination program, leading to its closure. The Cutter Incident (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1383764/), where a breakdown in the manufacturing protocols and regulatory monitoring led to batches of Salk vaccine being issued that hadn't been rendered inactivate properly, was also examined. Ironically:
The Cutter incident led to the replacement of Salk's formaldehyde-treated vaccine with Sabin's attenuated strain. Though Sabin's vaccine had the advantages of being administered orally and of fostering wider `contact immunity', it could also be re-activated by passage through the gut, resulting in occasional cases of polio (still causing paralysis in six to eight children every year in the 1980s and 1990s, when a modified Salk vaccine was re-introduced). As Offit observes, `ironically, the Cutter incident—by creating the perception among scientists and the public that Salk's vaccine was dangerous —led in part to the development of a polio vaccine that was more dangerous'.
Happily, Meryl & co did not get a look-in. :thumbsup:

[Soup Dragon]

Interesting little doco - and all goes to help get the correct info out there. I have an anti-vac friend who may be trying for a baby soon, we'll see if her mind is changing. I certainly hope so.

I was a little perturbed at the Queen's homeopath cropping up every now and then, but he didn't really say anything controversial, I think I just remember him from a Dawkin's documentary where he did indeed talk BS.

[Loki]

Religion. The last refuge of a scoundrel?



http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/anti-vaccine-zealots-form-sham-church/story-fni0cx12-1226653266194
CONTROVERSIAL anti-vaccination campaigner Meryl Dorey has been encouraging parents to join "sham" churches to exploit a loophole in the government's tough new vaccination policy.

Under new laws introduced on Tuesday, unvaccinated children are banned from childcare centres unless their parents can prove immunisation was against their religion or would cause a dangerous medical reaction.

Ms Dorey, who founded the Australian Vaccination Network, has urged her followers on social media to join the "Church of Conscious Living" as a way of avoiding the vaccination laws.

Health Minister Jillian Skinner was yesterday forced to answer questions in parliament about the loophole in her new laws, but admitted her hands were tied.

...cont'd...

[DanDare]

Religion. The last refuge of a scoundrel?



http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/anti-vaccine-zealots-form-sham-church/story-fni0cx12-1226653266194
Bloody stupid to have the "against their religion" clause anyway. Why should that allow them to send their unvaccinated kids to mingle with the others? What if it was against their religion to drive without being intoxicated? "Oh well, that's alright then, here are your keys back, off you go". :mad:

[fromthericefields]

This is one area I am divided in

All my life I have heard vaccines are bad for you. Some of my old friend's parents who had an Autistic child strongly advocate against vaccines, blaming it for the birth if Autistic children.

My younger siblings are not up to date and seem fine, but then again, they don't go to school nor are in public areas all the time.

Hearing that vaccines are all part of a grand plot to destroy the human race I'm trying to shift my thinking over to the fact that vaccines may be good for you.

But to do this I need proof or something that disproves their theories.

I remember that the aversion to vaccines were also due to some containing animal blood (not allowed in some religions).

Being an Atheist I still hear of some Atheists against the needle.

Who is right? Who is wrong?

[DanDare]

Hi FTRF,

vaccines have saved millions of lives. You can find this out by looking up figures from deaths by diseases that are now prevented by vaccines. And the death figures are not all that counts. Polio left many crippled.

The connection between vaccines and autism comes from one medical report by a doctor who faked it. Andrew Wakefield's 'dishonest and irresponsible' research into the causes of autism led to his being struck off by the General Medical Council. His paper was retracted from The Lancet. Even so things continue with the story as this recent article attests: http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/apr/25/mmr-scare-analysis

This paper at the World Health Organisation is a good starting point: http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/86/2/07-040089/en/ I suggest following some of the references to get a handle on the scientific detail.

[DanDare]

Who is right? Who is wrong?
That is such an important question. The answer is whoever presents an hypothesis that best explains the facts and is not contradicted by any of the facts probably has the most practical answer. Do not ask others to tell you who is right and who is wrong. Always look to the data and understand peoples analysis of it and work out what is correct yourself when the question is important enough.

[fromthericefields]

Polio left many crippled.

I posted that post late at night and forgot to add that I did currently see the good in at least two vaccines (the Tetanus shot, smallpox, and the one for polio). I'm not knowledgeable in proofs regarding vaccines, as I was raised only to believe that vaccines were one big conspiracy to kill us. :p

I don't believe that now, as I want to assess the proof myself instead of blindly believing someone.

Do not ask others to tell you who is right and who is wrong.

You're right on that I intended to only use that phase to express what I was feeling. Something like slightly confused on who was right based on the little evidence I have.

I'm taking your tips and checking out those links, but have to laugh at myself. If I truly find that the majority of the evidence points to vaccines do more good than harm, I'll never be able to convince my parents or anyone I know for that matter that vaccines are okay because I'll be reading straight from the source of the so called Elite controlled and funded groups according to Conspiracy theories.

Taking the time to read those links. :)

Thank you.

[stevebrooks]

All my life I have heard vaccines are bad for you. Some of my old friend's parents who had an Autistic child strongly advocate against vaccines, blaming it for the birth if Autistic children.

With the discredited report havng been already mentioned, what should also be mentioned is the fact that in the UK, where the report originated and was published, the current smallpox epidemic is spreading amonst children who were not immunised at the time the report was released, and were not subsequently immunised after it was discredited. The immunisation rates among the young in the UK is now up in the 98% range, the fears raised by the report well and truly forgotten, and yet they have no increased rate of autism.

Australia is the country where the report is still quoted and used by the AVN to promote fear and anti-vaccination behaviour, and is used as an excuse to harass and intimidate parents who have lost babies to once vanished childhood diseases , it's likely we will soon have our own epidemic, all thanks to the AVN.

[cyclist]

With the discredited report havng been already mentioned, what should also be mentioned is the fact that in the UK, where the report originated and was published, the current smallpox epidemic is spreading amonst children who were not immunised at the time the report was released, and were not subsequently immunised after it was discredited. The immunisation rates among the young in the UK is now up in the 98% range, the fears raised by the report well and truly forgotten, and yet they have no increased rate of autism.

Australia is the country where the report is still quoted and used by the AVN to promote fear and anti-vaccination behaviour, and is used as an excuse to harass and intimidate parents who have lost babies to once vanished childhood diseases , it's likely we will soon have our own epidemic, all thanks to the AVN.

It's measles that's spreading through the UK atm, smallpox only exists in labs now.

[wearestardust]

Oh god the stupid it burns

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=15078

[wearestardust]

@ fromthericefields:

notwithstanding it's a comic, this is the best explanation I have seen of the whole Wakefield thing.

http://tallguywrites.livejournal.com/148012.html

There is good evidence from changes in autism rates in countries with different rates of vaccination that the two aren't linked.

[stevebrooks]

It's measles that's spreading through the UK atm, smallpox only exists in labs now.

Thanks for correcting me, smallpox is in fact the poster boy for vacccination, we had the chance to eradicate polio from the world not long ago as well, but due to fundemental religious beliefs in some african and middle eastern cultures that chance has passed us by and it is in fact returning to many places it has long been absent.

[two dogs]

She neglected to mention that hydrochloric acid may be added to vaccines (to bring the pH level to that of the human body), but that "nasty chemical", sodium chloride, does get a mention. :facepalm:

[wearestardust]

sodium chloride

Deadly white powder

[Xeno]

Deadly white powder
Oh Pikkiwoki! I ingested some tonight!


This,the sanctity of childhood and the precious and remarkable nature of the human bodyalong with innocent ... immune systemssays enough.


Where did I mislay my PBF?

[Logic please]

Fuck. Me.:
Our parents took us to chicken pox, measles and mumps parties where we would consciously play with children with active viruses so we would get them ourselves, and ‘get it over with’. Exposure to viruses, dirt and germs was seen as necessary for building healthy immune systems and most of us have remained pretty healthy throughout our lives as a result. We are the children of the Baby Boomers, and we grew up alongside the Thalidomide children, which gave us an early, healthy, scepticism of the wonders of modern medicine.
Of course. Medical science doesn't ever advance over time, does it? Maybe we should return to lobotomies (http://www.cracked.com/article_15669_the-10-most-insane-medical-practices-in-history.html) as a gold-standard treatment? How about bloodletting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodletting) as a first-choice? After all... that's what used to be done!!! :facepalm::headbang:
Secondly, we believe in the sanctity of childhood and the precious and remarkable nature of the human body.
Pity that the organisms that give rise to vaccine-preventable, deadly childhood diseases don't share that orgasmically deluded optimism. :puke:
We don’t want our children pumped full of drugs, E Numbers, pesticides, sugar or other additives. We want them NATURALLY healthy with a strong and vibrant immune system, a love for health filled food choices and outdoor and rigorous play.
But hang on...
Diptheria has been eradicated in Australia, the UK and the US. Only in Australia and the UK are children immunised against it at 2 months. I appreciate that this is a horrible disease, readily spread, and is still prevalent in third World countries. Perhaps, rather than immunising babies, we need to instil firmer vaccination protocols for travellers, in order to protect those innocent and developing immune systems.
Teh vaccinations are evul for teh childrenz, yet they advocate them for adults? WTF???
Pneumococcal may well be necessary for vulnerable children in day care from a very young age, but not for all children, everywhere. While it certainly sounds like a great idea to prevent meningitis and pneumonia in children, surely good preventative medicine at home and vigilant monitoring of fever for dangerous indications, combined with a great hospital system and abundant antibiotics, are better than routinely pumping chemical and biochemical cocktails into our children?
Sooo... no nasty "biochemical cocktails" from vaccines... but what does the author thinks those antibiotics she's enthusiastically spruiking consist of...?
While ‘anti-vaxxers’ are damned for believing discredited research, there are many thousands of anecdotal and actual stories of children normal one day and not the day after MMR.
Still thinks Andrew Wakefield is just a misunderstood humanitarian (http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/04/18/andrew-wakefield-wants-a-live-public-televised-debate-oh-goody/). Say. No. More. :rolleyes:

[rayne]

It's amazing how many people still martyr Wakefield long after he was exposed as a fraud.

Anti-vaxxors only like medicine when it suits them. They'll take cough medicine, headache tablets or anti-biotics but not vaccines?

[fromthericefields]

@ fromthericefields:

notwithstanding it's a comic, this is the best explanation I have seen of the whole Wakefield thing.

http://tallguywrites.livejournal.com/148012.html

There is good evidence from changes in autism rates in countries with different rates of vaccination that the two aren't linked.

Hey thanks for that comic, it's a little more clear now. Just need to check sources :).

[rayne]

Hey thanks for that comic, it's a little more clear now. Just need to check sources :).

Seth Mnoolin - The Panic Virus is a great read the examines Andrew Wakefield and the anti-vaxxor movement.

[Logic please]

It's amazing how many people still martyr Wakefield long after he was exposed as a fraud.
One suspects it's what they wanted to hear, and no-one else credible is saying it now, soooo... Wakefield will have to do, for them. :facepalm:
Anti-vaxxors only like medicine when it suits them. They'll take cough medicine, headache tablets or anti-biotics but not vaccines?
'Xactly. The yawning chasm in the consistency of their views escapes them. And yet they're the ones calling vaccination "a religion"... :rolleyes:

[Logic please]

More parents (this time from NZ) speaking out about realising that not vaccinating their children was a terrible mistake - LINK (http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2013/06/06/3776327.htm):
Auckland parents Ian and Linda Williams thought they had made an informed choice not to vaccinate their children, but after their son ended up in intensive care with a tetanus infection they realised they had made a terrible mistake.
"The mistake that we made was that we underestimated the diseases and we totally over-estimated the adverse reactions", says father Ian Williams, who is speaking publicly of his family's ordeal in an effort to warn other parents about the dangers of not immunising their children.
...
Mr Williams recalls his son's agony, "It's a terrible thing... Your whole body arches, your arms go up in the air."
"It's like getting cramp but it's everywhere, across the face as well. They are so tight your jaw locks."
"The tetanus bacterium makes a toxin that attacks the nerves."
"It got so bad they put him in an induced coma just to put him out of his misery."
...
"He was in such pain due to us and our decision-making process so that's why we went to the papers in New Zealand - we just wanted to get our experience out there."
"It was very obvious we had made a mistake."
...
As well as Alijah, the Williams have a nine-year-old son and a two-year-old daughter, and Ian Williamson says they did their own research and decided not to vaccinate their children.
...
"If you google vaccines you get a lot of pros and a lot of cons, and you start to read all the cons and they start to weigh on you and you start to believe all the things that are said.
"It looks like a fifty-fifty argument."
Williams says that he was influenced by stories he read on the internet that the MMR (Measles, mumps and rubella) vaccine was linked to children developing autism; that they contain mercury and aluminium and that vaccines are promoted by drug companies purely for profit.
"There are a number of myths out there, and it's really easy to get sucked in."
...
"No one wants to hurt their kids; we didn't want to hurt our kid of course.
"The main research that you should do as a parent when you're looking at vaccination, the easiest and the clearest thing you could do would be to survey doctors and ask them if they are pro or anti vaccines.
"What you will find is that almost all of them are. Then ask yourself the question, why is that?
"Once you see one of these diseases, they are terrible. Children die from these diseases."
Say. No More.

[Logic please]

A follow-up on a Media Watch (ABC1) (http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s3778598.htm) story:
Last year Media Watch had a go at WIN News in Wollongong (http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s3601416.htm), New South Wales. It ran a story about a measles epidemic in South-West Sydney, and the need for parents to get their kids vaccinated.
...
Meryl Dorey, of the misnamed Australian Vaccination Network, inserted into a news story in the name of ‘balance’ to spout unscientific nonsense.
At the end of the item, I said this...
To put it bluntly, there’s evidence, and there’s bulldust. It’s a journalist’s job to distinguish between them, not to sit on the fence and bleat ‘balance’. Especially when people’s health is at risk.
That’s my view. We’ll let you know what the ACMA rules some time next year.

— ABC1, Media Watch, 1st October, 2012


With some good news...
Well, the ACMA did rule, last week. It found that WIN TV had breached the Commercial TV Code of Practice (http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/1319_acma.pdf), because it...

...failed to broadcast factual material accurately.

— ACMA Media Release, 7th June, 2013

The ACMA Media release continued...
given the ... important public health issues involved, the ACMA recommended to WIN TV that it make an on-air statement concerning the ACMA’s findings...

— ACMA Media Release, 7th June, 2013

...and some bad news:
But WIN TV has refused. And there’s nothing more the ACMA can do.
Bugga. :mad:

[DanDare]

And there’s nothing more the ACMA can do.
And there is the problem right there. If someone breaches the code of practice and gives it the middle finger then the code of practice is just a show piece to make people think things are regulated and stop them from making real regulations.

[AUSloth]

And there is the problem right there. If someone breaches the code of practice and gives it the middle finger then the code of practice is just a show piece to make people think things are regulated and stop them from making real regulations.

ACMA is sounding remarkably like the TGA (http://www.tga.gov.au/), toothless tigers somewhat in the vein of the wizard of oz.

[yoshirama]

I think it should be compulsory because by not vaccinating your kinds you are endangering other children which no one has the right to do.

[rayne]

LINK (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-20/nsw-passes-controversial-vaccination-laws/4769002)

I thought this was already in place nation wide?

he New South Wales Parliament has passed new laws covering childcare centres and vaccination.

From next January, a childcare centre can refuse to enrol a child whose parents or guardians cannot show proof of vaccination or provide an approved exemption.


Health Minister Jillian Skinner says parents who are seeking an exemption will first need to speak to a general practitioner.


Childcare centres will face fines if they do not complete checks to ensure a child is vaccinated, or that they have exemption.


Health experts have warned of increasing instances of whooping cough across the state, which they attribute to low immunisation rates.


A recent report found that in the far north coast town of Mullumbimby, less than half of young children were fully immunised.