DREAMTIME - Is it religion

[bill]

So, in this country of ours, the oldest belief system would be that of the aboriginies...

But, would you consider it a "religion", or is it something else?

[gibreel farishta]

strictly speaking the dreamtime myths can be defined as religion. though
I doubt that Sir James Frazer would allow them to be used as a proof that all ancient people came to believe in a god.

[Seamus]

strictly speaking the dreamtime myths can be defined as religion. though
I doubt that Sir James Frazer would allow them to be used as a proof that all ancient people came to believe in a god.


Agreed, although what Frazer had to say about just about anything has been pretty much ignored except as a curiosity since the early C20Th.
It was at that time that Anthropology left the care of the gentleman scholar and became a discipline. People began to actually go into the field to spend time amongst the people they wished to study. Frazer never did,

[gibreel farishta]

yes seamus and frazer freely admits that his understanding of the australian native is second hand, everthing moves on but you got my drift.

[Mister Pervert]

I have to admit I am leery of atheists who'll rail vehermently against Christianty and yet will bow down reverently to Aboriginal superstitions as if these are somehow magically empowered to fall outside the realms of intellecutal criticism. They're 'myths' - no different to creationist myths in every culture, including ours. To attach any kind of superior significance to Aboriginal myths purely on the basis they're as old a human civilization itself is demeaning to Aboriginals and breathtakingly hypocritical - dare I say, 'racist'.

The key word in all of this is 'respect' as opposed to 'reverence'. Clearly, a non-Aboriginal can 'respect' Aboriginal traditions without needing or being required to be 'reverent' about them. The same should be true of any tradition, including that of the triumvirate of monotheistic religions - (in alphabetical order) Christianity, Islam and Judaism. In short, atheists do themselves a disservice if they mock monotheists while fawning over "exotic" religious/spiritual beliefs like those of Aboriginals. Don't get me started on the atheist closet-Buddhists...

[Mister Pervert]

It was a philosophy before the kiss of syncretism turned it into a religion.

You said "syncretism" (snicker!)

Let's not forget all of Western science as we know it was also originally in the realms of philosophy ;-)

[Seamus]

yes seamus and frazer freely admits that his understanding of the australian native is second hand

Mate EVERYTHING Frazer wrote was based on the observations of others.OR his on blind deductions.He based his opinions on the [to him and his peers] perfectly sensible assumption that middle class Victorian England, which included the Church of England, was the acme of civilisation.

His position was commonly held,Viz; that with the exception of Jews,who were merley in error,the non chrstian religions were quaint superstitions.


Frazer was actually shocked at the suggestion that perhaps he might like to actually MEET a "native" or two. "A native" was virtually any non European.The English also considered the French,Germans,all Slavic and Hispanic peoples as essentially inferior.Some still do.


My point is that no anthropologist I've come across quotes Frazer in any authorative way.You might just as well quote The Bible as history. IE parts of it may be correct,but only very small parts.

[SinisterDexter]

The dreamtime stories are very similar. I have recently been reading Genesis and a lot of the naming stories, territorial stories and stroies about morality in that book are very very similar to dreamtime stories in that they are about what people should and should not do. They are "lore" as opposed to strict myth, intended to inform people about the place they live or the cultural norms to which they should adhere.

Some of the information contained in this body of lore makes sense. For example, the Kaurna calendar is a much more useful way of organising the year in Adelaide than the Gregorian calendar is. It has six seasons correlating to specific weather patterns or natural rhythms and it draws people closer to those rhythms and helps them better understand the weather in the area.

Is it a religion? Well, yes, when people actually believe that supernatural events occurred.

But I would say that in most cases nowadays the cultural material of the stories is emphasised while the supernatural stuff is not so important.

Like with "cultural christians" I would contend that most indigenous Australians are "cultural animists" (and most of them are simultaneously "cultural christians") and do not actually believe in the supernatural elements of their dreamtime stories. Having said that, I'm certain there are exceptions.

Personally I love the stories. The Tjilbruke story in Adelaide is fantastic and, while I will probably never get any of the higher layers of the story, the bare bones evoke the place itself, a place I love. I love that I can look at Mt Lofty and Mt Bonython and see the ears of Yrrebilla the giant in the skyline.

[gibreel farishta]

seamus the internet is far kinder to frazer than you are and he has been often quoted in religious studies , like allegro he stepped on the toes of christianity, a sure way to lose all credibility. so maybe i should have said dawkins..

[Seamus]

seamus the internet is far kinder to frazer than you are and he has been often quoted in religious studies




I don't doubt it.That's why I don't rely one the net as a prime source of information.

My opinion of Frazer is fairly usual amongst academics. I formed my opinion independently during the course of my studies towards a degree Social Anthropology.

I'm not surprised that people from outside the discipline still quote Frazer to support a position. I'm sure people still quote Margaret Mead,whose studies were largely discredited some decades ago.


I guess we may need to agree to differ,it's not an issue about which I'm willing to argue with you.

[gibreel farishta]

no i fully accept what you are saying re anthropology but i would not deny
frazer his rightfull place in comparative religious studies, many people have accepted their atheism after reading frazer and seeing how their own religion
is nothing more than former pagan belief

[SchizoDeluxe]

So, in this country of ours, the oldest belief system would be that of the aboriginies...

But, would you consider it a "religion", or is it something else?

If there's worshipping and a god involved, it's a religion.

[Alan]

Its fascinating that christians see animist/pagan beliefs as primitive.

They are of course equally silly, or perhaps a god 'up there' watching over our every deed is even sillier than a landscape populated by spirit beings.

[SinisterDexter]

Its fascinating that christians see animist/pagan beliefs as primitive.

They are of course equally silly, or perhaps a god 'up there' watching over our every deed is even sillier than a landscape populated by spirit beings.

And healthier. As much as the animist worldview is silly, at least it fosters a sense of human connection to each other and the "natural" world. Christianity fosters a hateful view, using wholly objectionable symbols, to make people ashamed of their own instincts and judgemental of others.

[Atrax Robustus]

And healthier. As much as the animist worldview is silly, at least it fosters a sense of human connection to each other and the "natural" world. Christianity fosters a hateful view, using wholly objectionable symbols, to make people ashamed of their own instincts and judgemental of others.

Agreed.

I wouldn't call the Aboriginal religions animist though . . . from what I understand souls aren't attributed to objects, animals or plants. While many clans/tribes (moieties) have totemic beliefs, most natural formations are seen as evidence of actions by ancestral beings during creation (eg valleys caused by the passage of the rainbow serpent).