Creationism in state public schools

[FSM]

The title says it all.
I thought I'd break this off from the Ron Williams thread, as I think it's important in it's own right, and didn't want to dilute the Ron.W thread:

---------------------------------------------

AVF-1RmVxBU


The school vice captain resigned in protest!
What an awesome and brave move, that kid clearly has their head screwed on right.
They should promote him or her to captain immediately!

Here is the ad in the school newsletter advertising the creationism lecture:
http://gympieshs.eq.edu.au/wcms/images/phocagallery/newsletter2011/newsletterno12of2011.pdf
(page 5)
Will be interesting to see if the next newsletter mentions the resignation of the vice captain. My guess is it won't :-(

Someone instigated this. If it was the principle of a state school, they should be stood down immediately. If it was the chaplain who instigated it, then they should be removed immediately. But the principle must have OK'd it, surely? In which case, the principle must go IMO. They have no place leading a state public school.

Dave.

[sosman]

This is just wrong on so many levels. Maybe you Queenslanders can comment on how this would go if it was a popularity contest, Is it just me or do you have more than your fair share of creationists/fundies up there?

[FSM]

It's exploitation of a wriggle-space.
Principals are able to approve after-hours community use of school premises for community activities. Some schools rent their halls for church services on a regular basis.


In this case it was during school parade time, not after hours.


On Wednesday August 10th, visiting speaker
John Mackay will be at Gympie State High
School to give a science presentation examining
the evidence for the Biblical account of Creation
and current Evolutionary teaching.
Attendance to the presentation is completely
voluntary and is only available with parental
consent.
This will provide students with the opportunity to
hear an alternative point of view and challenge
him with questions.
John Mackay is an experienced speaker and
has debated this topic internationally with some
of the world’s leading scientists.
The presentation will take place during period 3
whilst school parade is on ensuring no class
time is missed. Questions will follow during the
lunch break where some food will also be provided.
Parental permission forms can be collected from
the school Chaplain, John Donaldso


And given that it is advertised as a "science" presentation, then it should be up to the principle (and head science teacher?) to judge if this is actually a credible and valuable scientific presentation for the students. Of course, the teachers aren't industry experts, but geeze, one would expect a minimum standard of knowledge and "crank detection" here surely?

By allowing this presentation during school time, they are in effect endorsing the material as appropriate learning material for their students. After all, school isn't meant as place for free speech, it's a place of learning, in this case current scientific theory. Would they allow the flat earthers in to give a presentation? How about the global warming deniers?, or free energy scammers? They should, if they want to "teach the controversy" as they have indicated.

Dave.

[FSM]

Oh. (Jaw-drop.) Should be sacked.

But this is Queensland, so there will be much ahem-ing and foot-shuffling, after which precisely bugger-all will have been done.


I'm afraid you might be right :mad:

It would be AWESOME if that former vice captain led a campaign to get the principle booted - that would be frigg'n awesome! and front page news I'm sure :D *dreaming*

Dave.

[wolty]

Yep, would agree with Mr B, it is the way here.

[sosman]

It's exploitation of a wriggle-space.
...
I could only suggest anybody who objects to one of these sessions puts on their Polite Hat and Smiley Face, and takes their bag of Awkward Questions.

Well there is email. Asking the school for their science program, you know, how old is the Earth etc. Would probably work better if you were in the region.

edit: just sent email with some enquiries about their science curriculum - contact page can be found in the menus at http://gympieshs.eq.edu.au

[Praxis]

In many ways, this is an excellent thing to happen because it will throw huge focus on the issue.

For starters, wishy-washy bystanders who until now have weakly supported the NSCP with a 'but where's the harm? chappies are nice people" and a lame shrug must now be forced to confront the reality: that these people have seriously dangerous ideas that they want to peddle to our children in our state schools. From an Australian point of view, the whole science v. creationism is something we view at a distance in the US and we laugh at it, safe in the knowledge that something like that wouldn't ever happen here. After all, this is Australia and we don't have those types of fundie loonies, espcially not in our schools, do we?

A big hello to Gympie. You may just be the catalyst that issue has needed. I think once people start to realise what's really going on here, more will now step up and go 'now hang on a minute!'.

Congratulations to the school vice-captain who left over the issue. A solid indication of a young rational thinker. I'd like to shake her or his hand.

I hope this issue gets as wide coverage as possible.

[FSM]

In many ways, this is an excellent thing to happen because it will throw huge focus on the issue.


I hope so, but at the moment it doesn't look like it's getting much coverage though :(

But, it does give the anti-chaplain campaigners an EXCELLENT example to bring up every time someone asks the question - "but what's the harm?"

It should be front and center up on the high court challenge website as an example.
A Q&A subject perhaps?

Dave.

[cyclist]

Oh. (Jaw-drop.) Should be sacked.

But this is Queensland, so there will be much ahem-ing and foot-shuffling, after which precisely bugger-all will have been done.

It's not that the state is a theocracy, but a collection of kakistocracies which have withstood a number of changes of government.

As much as I hate to say it, this is why the whole "wedge strategy" of creationism and ID are so effective. They push the whole thing of teaching the controversy, that people start to honestly believe that it is a "theory in crisis". There needs to be a push that whenever anyone says "teach the controversy", that there needs to be a very loud

"WHAT FUCKING CONTROVERSY!"

James

[FSM]

There needs to be a push that whenever anyone says "teach the controversy", that there needs to be a very loud

"WHAT FUCKING CONTROVERSY!"


With emphasis on the F word! :D

And this is why that school Principal must stand down immediately.

Dave.

[SoapyStan]

Looks like this wasn't the first attempt to get Mackay into the school.

From Gympie SHS newsletter Oct, 2010 :


Aussie evidence for a young earth

Have you ever wondered what came first, the chicken or the egg?
Visiting speaker, John Mackay (International Director of Creation Research) will be in Gympie presenting locally discovered evidence supporting Intelligent Design and the account of Creation as presented in the Bible. John was due to speak with students at Gympie State High School last term but had to postpone due to illness.

John will be speaking at Gympie Baptist Church on Saturday 30th October, with doors opening at 6.30pm for a 7pm start. The event is open to anyone and everyone, and will conclude with a time for questions.

I look forward to seeing you there.

John Donaldson
Gympie State High School Chaplain


And would you believe, appearing directly above this ad is a piece about the refurbishment of the science block :

The science laboratories are sporting bright new colours – blue for Physics, yellow for Chemistry and green (of course) for Biology. The laboratories have new floor coverings, desks and chairs, benches, screens, fans, some windows, electrics and new state-of-the-art fume cupboards.


Why haven't we heard from the biology teacher? He or she should be threatening to resign, not the school vice-captain.

http://gympieshs.eq.edu.au/wcms/images/phocagallery/ZQCLMP/Newsletter_No_16_of_2010.pdf

[SoapyStan]

Some background info on the chaplain :

http://www.gympietimes.com.au/story/2010/02/26/a-happy-chappy-for-gympie-high/

He believes that the examples set by his parents have also been of great benefit in preparing him for the work of a chaplain. “I feel as though I have a double blessing as I share my father’s love for the word of God, prayer, preaching and evangelism, but also have a willingness to serve practically – a very strong characteristic displayed in my mother,” he said.

[David Stasey]

Why is everyone so shocked?
Remember this:

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/intelligent-design-to-be-taught-in-queensland-schools-under-national-curriculum/story-e6freoof-1225872896736

Which led to this:

http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=5852

Sure it was only in history classes but the ID people were rapt because they knew it was the thin end of the wedge. It was only last year.

(the stories are re ID in QLD schools - the long form of the URL made that clear)

[Logic please]

Looks like this wasn't the first attempt to get Mackay into the school.

From Gympie SHS newsletter Oct, 2010 :



And would you believe, appearing directly above this ad is a piece about the refurbishment of the science block :



Why haven't we heard from the biology teacher? He or she should be threatening to resign, not the school vice-captain.

http://gympieshs.eq.edu.au/wcms/images/phocagallery/ZQCLMP/Newsletter_No_16_of_2010.pdf
Will link when I'm on a *real* computer, but somebody needs to send that principal a copy of the Dover Area School Board case in the US, where ID was exposed as the pseudoscientific propoganda that it is.

Anyway, WTF is a chaplain doing, arranging any *learning* material for students, and more importantly, previously debunked material at odds with core elements of the existing curriculum? They aren't there to deliver educational outcomes, are they? Doesn't this violate even the flawed objectives of the NSCP?

I look forward to seeing the peer-review processes this stuff has been subjected to, before being judged acceptable to present to QLD students. Oh, wait... :-/

[jonno]

Just had to check the date to make sure it wasn't April fools day - unfortunately it's not :(



If this conman is spreading his bullshit lies to school kids in Gympie I have to ask the questions
1. Who is sponsoring (paying) for him to come out to Australia?
2. What other schools is he 'presenting' at?
3. Is he going to states other than Queensland and will there be a public question/answer session anywhere?

[Praxis]

I am hoping a journo or high profile blogger will pick up this story so it gets wider coverage.

The whole thing is just despicable.

[sosman]

Just had to check the date to make sure it wasn't April fools day - unfortunately it's not :(



If this conman is spreading his bullshit lies to school kids in Gympie I have to ask the questions
1. Who is sponsoring (paying) for him to come out to Australia?
2. What other schools is he 'presenting' at?
3. Is he going to states other than Queensland and will there be a public question/answer session anywhere?

Mackay's website has a "upcoming events" page which goes as far as June in Aus and limited to Qld.

[FSM]

I am hoping a journo or high profile blogger will pick up this story so it gets wider coverage.


Maybe someone should make them aware of it?
Anyone know any secular friendly journo's who would take it up?

Dave.

[Praxis]

Maybe someone should make them aware of it?
Anyone know any secular friendly journo's who would take it up?

Mike Stuchberry is preparing a blog post as we speak. He's got a reasonably high profile in the blogosphere and occasionally gets a column up on the Drum, so that will reach some.

I'd like to see Geoff Lemon, Leslie Cannold, Michael Bachelard, and John Birmingham take it up as well.

[meddie87]

[QUOTE="David Stasey"]Why is everyone so shocked?

Sure it was only in history classes but the ID people were rapt because they knew it was the thin end of the wedge. It was only last year.

I personally think teaching creationism in history class is a great idea. It is a major part of history and should be taught alongside other long-held historical beliefs that were ultimately disproven, such as 'the earth is flat' and 'the sun revolves around the earth'. And like with these cases, it should be taught as a story of how scientific inquiry and rational thinking managed to overcome deeply held beliefs of society.

[meddie87]

Ok, my attempt at quoting failed miserably. Sorry guys. It was my first post. The final paragraph was my contribution.

[DanDare]

But wait, theres more (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/row-over-creationists-class-lecture/story-fn59niix-1226114839237)!

One concerned Gympie parent, who asked not be named, has complained to the federal and state education departments about last week's lecture.

......

A spokeswoman said no formal complaint had been received.


.........


A spokeswoman for federal Schools Minister Peter Garrett said the department would investigate any formal complaint made about the Gympie lecture.
Ah, a recurring pattern. People complain. Government declares there have been no complaints. Peter Garrett says if only you would complain then he would investigate, then sticks fingers in ears and yells la la la la la la la.



Recently, students from the school visited a Buddhist institute to hear the Dalai Lama speak during a visit to the Sunshine Coast.
So?

[ThinkToBe]

At a distance.... It could be interpreted as a challenge for the kids to kick the questions and hear the answers.... Is it possible that some of the kids could wrap him up because they know a thing or two about science.... And the teachers ?.... Would they let the troll get away with his sophisticated communication strategies so he gives the answers to the questions he seemingly ask ..... Should not we give some faith to the kids ...or the mind polluter will get his medevil thoughts across the entire audience ?..... Good marks for the Captain for the reaction... However, if he was allowed to get up the nose of the visitor as well as being allowed to state his state of mind in an articulated way for all to hear.... This could make news ..... Democrassy in all its splendor !....

[Annie]

@ Dandare. That reminds me of the Ed dept WA declaring they had only nine reports of abuse against teachers in the year when the local high school alone filed 22.At a distance.... It could be interpreted as a challenge for the kids to kick the questions and hear the answers.... Is it possible that some of the kids could wrap him up because they know a thing or two about science.... Unlikely in high school given the curriculum and the confidence levels of high school students.

And the teachers ?.... Would they let the troll get away with his sophisticated communication Yes. In the job of teaching it is not our role to publicly tear apart every ill founded assertion that presents. Our job is to teach and to encourage questioning. There is a big difference.
The issue here is that the principal allowed this to happen. Principals act as financial managers, overseers of the implementation of curriculum and bouncers. This nutjob who was allowed access into the school during school hours should have been bounced out of this school forthwith. Not bouncing the nut has compromised the science curriculum and probably caused many teachers and students to wonder what the fuck they are doing there. Im sure I would be tempted to resign from this school if I worked there.



---
- King Latapat.

[Xeno]

Annie, I commend you on reading through the ellipses to find out whther TTB had something to say. I had not considered it worth the time, as indeed it proved not.

[Annie]

Thanks xeno. It wasn't easy. I could only decipher the first half though.


After that, I needed wine.


---
- King Latapat.

[FSM]

But wait, theres more (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/row-over-creationists-class-lecture/story-fn59niix-1226114839237)!


Ah, a recurring pattern. People complain. Government declares there have been no complaints. Peter Garrett says if only you would complain then he would investigate, then sticks fingers in ears and yells la la la la la la la.


It would be brilliant if the Vice Captain made a formal complaint and took it up in the media.
I wonder if he/she knows there are plenty of people out there who would support him/her?

Dave.

[Logic please]

As promised earlier: Kitzmiller v Dover Area School District wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District).

Some pertinent findings from the case decision, for decision-makers at Gympie State High School to think about:
A significant aspect of the IDM is that despite Defendants’ protestations to the contrary, it describes ID as a religious argument. In that vein, the writings of leading ID proponents reveal that the designer postulated by their argument is the God of Christianity.
...

The evidence at trial demonstrates that ID is nothing less than the progeny of creationism.
...

Throughout the trial and in various submissions to the Court, Defendants vigorously argue that the reading of the statement is not “teaching” ID but instead is merely “making students aware of it.” In fact, one consistency among the Dover School Board members’ testimony, which was marked by selective memories and outright lies under oath, as will be discussed in more detail below, is that they did not think they needed to be knowledgeable about ID because it was not being taught to the students. We disagree... an educator reading the disclaimer is engaged in teaching, even if it is colossally bad teaching... The disclaimer is a “mini-lecture” providing substantive misconceptions about the nature of science, evolution, and ID which “facilitates learning.” (14:120-23, 15:57-59 (Alters)). In addition, superintendent Nilsen agrees that students “learn” from the statement, regardless of whether it gets labeled as “teaching.”
...

...ID is not science. We find that ID fails on three different levels, any one of which is sufficient to preclude a determination that ID is science. They are: (1) ID violates the centuries-old ground rules of science by invoking and permitting supernatural causation; (2) the argument of irreducible complexity, central to ID, employs the same flawed and illogical contrived dualism that doomed creation science in the 1980's; and (3) ID’s negative attacks on evolution have been refuted by the scientific community. As we will discuss in more detail below, it is additionally important to note that ID has failed to gain acceptance in the scientific community, it has not generated peer-reviewed publications, nor has it been the subject of testing and research.
If nothing else, by using the "science" label in the pamphlet, the chaplain and school should be pursued by the ACCC under the Trade Practices Act, for false advertising. :rolleyes::cool:

[gibreel farishta]

The Gympie Times, 16 Aug

Reports that one of the "Chappies" at Gympie State High had arranged for John Mackay, to deliver, what was reported to parents as a scientific lecture to students, requiring parental approval to attend the lecture.

Many parents have complained because the Lecture was creationist diatribe.

A spokesman for Federal Schools minister Peter garret said that the department would investigate any formal complaint

Mr Mackay's website blames Darwin for last months massacre in Norway


.

[gibreel farishta]

The Gympie Times have put the story up on their website


http://www.gympietimes.com.au/story/2011/08/16/talk-by-creationist-triggers-complaint-gympie/


.

[gibreel farishta]

Apologies for putting gympie times on wrong thread , only googled AFA school chaplaincy to seek a place,

[Loki]

The page you are looking for is doesn't seem to exist. No deity can help you with this so praying is useless, really the only thing left is a search via google. That's reality for you.

Love it.

[4lan]

Found the link searched via hair:

http://gympieshs.eq.edu.au/wcms/images/phocagallery/newsletter2011/newsletterno12of2011.pdf

4lan.

[FSM]

The Gympie Times have put the story up on their website


http://www.gympietimes.com.au/story/2011/08/16/talk-by-creationist-triggers-complaint-gympie/
.

And there another article how Chaplains are fighting against the high court challenge.
http://www.gympietimes.com.au/story/2011/08/05/about-500-chaplains-have-this-week-issued-a-warnin/

There is a poll - "Should chaplains be allowed in Queensland schools?"
Currently 94% YES.

Dave.

[TimB]

There is a poll - "Should chaplains be allowed in Queensland schools?"
Currently 94% YES.

Is there anything to stop one person voting 10 billion times in this sort of poll?

[Loki]

Yes, they are logging your IP and do not let you vote twice. :D

Whether that still applies after a restart I do not know, yet.

[Talek]

Yes, they are logging your IP and do not let you vote twice. :D

Whether that still applies after a restart I do not know, yet.

I got about ten votes in by deleting my cookies repeatedly before it called bullshit.

[4lan]

Yes, they are logging your IP and do not let you vote twice. :D

Whether that still applies after a restart I do not know, yet.

Well, went for a 'lookie' and perhaps add my weight to the No section only to be told I have already voted.. me thinks the voting mechanism is conspiring against rationalists! But seriously I'm not sure how it would cope with network address translation as I'm at lunch and my work may not present my internal IP etc. (I havent checked the appliance yet).

I'm sure we know the poor quality of news site polls though, so perhaps I should expect it to be used by some pro-chaplaincy shill which will hopefully lead to a total debunking of the 'poll' etc.

4lan.

[FSM]

Is there anything to stop one person voting 10 billion times in this sort of poll?

You bet:
http://anonymouse.org/cgi-bin/anon-www.cgi/http://www.gympietimes.com.au/story/2011/08/05/about-500-chaplains-have-this-week-issued-a-warnin/

Just refresh.

Dave.

[Sieveboy]

Maybe get PZ myers to pharyngulate it?

[Annie]

I got about ten votes in by deleting my cookies repeatedly before it called bullshit.

Hahahaha. :D:D:D:D

That is all.

[DanDare]

Just dropped a call for reinforcements at Pharyngula.