PDA

View Full Version : A pretty typical story of deconversion...


JaxsonBateman
8th June 2011, 09:42 PM
Hi folks,

My story isn't really amazing or impressive. But it's my story, and being in a world that is predominantly theist, I'd like to add to the tapestry of atheism. :)

I was born into a non-practicing Catholic family. That is, we labelled ourselves as Catholic Christians, but rarely attended church outside of big events like baptism and confirmation. I went to a Catholic primary school, and wasn't really big on religion - I believed it, but didn't think too much about it. The school itself was great though, and I did enjoy it. It also encouraged a lot of good out of religion, like helping the poor and those in need, which is one side of religion I don't mind.

I then went to a Christian high school - and like many other high schoolers, I had some tough times. And like many other teens, I was a bit of a romantic, but I didn't have too much success with the girls at school. This led me to pray - heavily - as I was desperate. I would almost ritualistically pray as I felt like nothing I could do in the physical world could help me with the unrequited feelings I had all throughout high school. At one point in year 9, I even decided to become much more religious, started attending church weekly for about half a year, and declared that I would become abstinent. While that phase of actually being religious was brief, I still believed in God during my time at high school, and prayed regularly for what I wanted. I wasn't a good Christian though - I often threw in prayers for family members and those in need, but they were selfish additions, as I felt like I would have to include them in my prayers for God to consider my other requests.

Now, I want to mention that I am an intelligent person - I didn't actually believe the bible or all the rules it laid out. I believed in evolution and did not believe in a 6 day creation story or a global flood, or anything like that. But I did believe in a higher power.

After leaving high school I went to uni for a year, but after discovering that I didn't really like the course (commerce - one of those courses a lot of people who can't figure out what they want to do pick) - I started working full time for the next few years. During this time, I was still Christian and believed in a higher power. But the only practicing I did was prayer. And I still didn't believe in the bible.

I do a lot of thinking when I'm laying in bed at night - thousands of thoughts tend to race in my head, and some of my greatest epiphanies come during this time. As an example, a couple years ago I was laying in bed, and the idea of determinism came to me, and made perfect sense. For a short time I thought this was a new, revolutionary concept, and was blown away to learn that people had considered this idea for thousands of years. It made the idea of determinism that much stronger in my mind, as multiple intelligent people coming up with this idea independently surely meant that it had some merit.

But I digress - about 4 years ago I was laying in bed one night, and started evaluating the state of the universe. How everything had a reason for it, and that nothing required a supernatural force in order to be possible. I was reluctant to discount God, but after a few nights of thinking, I accepted Occam's Razor - that if a supernatural force wasn't required for the universe to work, then there was likely no supernatural force at all.

This was bitter-sweet for me. I'm a person of knowledge, and always prefer bitter truths to sweet lies, so I was glad to feel like I knew how the world worked, and know the truth of it. But it was bitter in that I now felt very, very alone. It wouldn't last though - while I definitely don't believe the religious side of it, I had been learning about Buddhism during this period, and meditation and thought helped me get through it. I'll say right now that while its religious side is something I won't buy, the lifestyle side of Buddhism actually makes a lot of sense from a psychological point of view, and is something I appreciate.

So for most of that point on, I considered myself agnostic - it took a while for someone to point out to me that I was actually an atheist too, and that the two (agnostic and atheist) weren't mutually exclusive. I wasn't willing to say "God doesn't exist" as that would indicate that I overestimated the limited knowledge of the human race, but I did fully believe that he likely didn't exist.

However, as I said, for most of that point on... I must admit, early last year, a string of strange coincidences occurred in my favour, and it felt like for something so remarkable to happen there must've been a higher power. In retrospect, it was just me being narcissistic, and believing that nothing so good could possibly happen by nature's will alone, but at the time I thought God was looking over my shoulder. However, that string ended with a crushing finale, and I was a disbeliever once more. Fortunately, in the time since I've been learning a lot more about the debate of theism vs atheism, and the evidence is overwhelming in the side of atheism.

While I'm currently between jobs and need to focus on getting into a stable financial situation first, I now feel like it's important for me to start getting active within atheism. I have no problem with people using religion for good, like I was taught to in school - I don't mind people doing good things at all, even if their good is based on flimsy ideas like a test designed by a higher power to allow life after death. But there is too much pain and suffering caused by people following religious ideas, and as a species with so much potential we can't let these superstitious bronze age beliefs hold us back and lead us to the brink of our own extinction. When you have countries banning gay unions, or killing adulterers, or campaigning against stem cell research, something has to change. Religion is something that people should practice without impacting on the rights of others, or the laws of countries.

But anyway, that's essentially how I got to where I am today. Hopefully you'll be seeing a lot more of me around these forums and in the atheist scene. :-)

Jax

AFA Admin
8th June 2011, 09:48 PM
Hi, Jaxson.

This is a message sent to all who find their way to these forums.

We like people, and we like facts too!

We're friendly but we're skeptical, and if somebody calls for proof, it's not an accusation. Only the strong ideas thrive here: we try to respect people. (We do not tolerate personal abuse.)

If you're an AFA member and need your membership status recognised in forum access, please send a Private Message to Admin (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/private.php?do=newpm&u=13), including the name on your AFA membership.

You may already have visited these other handy places:
* New Member Information (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=12)
* Welcome from AFA president (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=18)
* For those interested in learning, I recommend the Atheism Resource Thread (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=7608) maintained by Fearless.
* And a quick look at our reserved spot for belief-based discussion, Fantasy Island (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=16), includes The Great Big List (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=4784), a sort-of "things we've seen before" for those of faith, and general rules of argument for the forum.

If you've got questions, please ask. Moderators have red name tags, but many of our friendly people may have the answers you need.

Enjoy the forums. We hope to see plenty from you in discussions.

Have fun.

wolty
9th June 2011, 04:45 AM
Nice post JB. Thanks for sharing and welcome.

Loki
9th June 2011, 05:09 AM
Hi JB, thanks for sharing. The only trouble I have with xian "good works" is they usually seem to have strings attached and can be done just as well by non-believers. What would I know though, being an immoral heathen I probably just can't see the bigger picture. :rolleyes:

JaxsonBateman
9th June 2011, 05:23 AM
=P

Don't get me wrong; I'd be over the moon if they decided to do good without some ulterior motive like getting into the afterlife, but the way I see it, as long as there are religious people doing bad, I'm not going to complain about the ones doing good. ^^

Darwinsbulldog
9th June 2011, 08:45 AM
Hi JB, a great intro. Yup, god[s] do not compute, so why base an ethical system on them? Never mind a science. Anyway, I hope you enjoy the discussions.

youngmoigle
9th June 2011, 12:26 PM
Hi Jax,
Welcome to the forum.

The school itself was great though, and I did enjoy it. It also encouraged a lot of good out of religion, like helping the poor and those in need, which is one side of religion I don't mind.

It is worth noting that the Churches actually do very little to help the poor and the needy. The money collected by the church stays in the church and the poor don't get any of it.

What happens is that the church sets up a charity wing which always remains separate from the church itself, and there is no cash-flow between the two.

Here's how most religious charities work:

The volunteer workers get out on the street rattling the collection tins - that's the public face that we all see and it convinces us that the charity is doing what we expect it to be doing - but most of that money is used to pay staff salaries, office rent, etcetera. Those expenses have to be paid, so there's nothing shonky about it, but the point is that most of the cash from the collection tins is NOT used to help the poor and needy.

Almost every dollar handed out by a religious charity comes directly from the Government. The Government knows it has to help those in need, but it cannot be bothered with the fine details, so it hands over tens of millions of dollars each year to the recognised (usually religious) charities and charges them with the task of doling it out to those who need it.

Check out the mission statement of the St Vincent de Paul Society. The cash used to help the poor comes from donations from the public and from the Government, but none of it comes from the Catholic Church: "The Society does not receive any direct funding from the Catholic Church."

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2655/4034488724_59c7cb87d2.jpg

It gets worse:

With so much unearned money floating about, the Churches will sometimes get greedy and instead of "doing good" with it, they will try to steal it for their own use. In my hometown, for example, the Anglican Church tried to use charitable funds from Anglicare, to pay compensation to victims of priestly child abuse (see link).

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/adelaides-anglic... (http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/adelaides-anglican-church-under-scrutiny-over-payments-to-workers-victims/story-e6frea83-1225872772338)

[Remember that Anglicare is completely separated from the Anglican Church. It was not found guilty of any crime and it was not ordered to pay compensation to anyone. The Church was merely trying to protect its own funds and use Government cash to meet its obligations.]

cyclist
9th June 2011, 02:40 PM
Hi Jax,
Welcome to the forum.



It is worth noting that the Churches actually do very little to help the poor and the needy. The money collected by the church stays in the church and the poor don't get any of it.

What happens is that the church sets up a charity wing which always remains separate from the church itself, and there is no cash-flow between the two.

Here's how most religious charities work:

The volunteer workers get out on the street rattling the collection tins - that's the public face that we all see and it convinces us that the charity is doing what we expect it to be doing - but most of that money is used to pay staff salaries, office rent, etcetera. Those expenses have to be paid, so there's nothing shonky about it, but the point is that most of the cash from the collection tins is NOT used to help the poor and needy.

Almost every dollar handed out by a religious charity comes directly from the Government. The Government knows it has to help those in need, but it cannot be bothered with the fine details, so it hands over tens of millions of dollars each year to the recognised (usually religious) charities and charges them with the task of doling it out to those who need it.

Check out the mission statement of the St Vincent de Paul Society. The cash used to help the poor comes from donations from the public and from the Government, but none of it comes from the Catholic Church: "The Society does not receive any direct funding from the Catholic Church."

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2655/4034488724_59c7cb87d2.jpg

It gets worse:

With so much unearned money floating about, the Churches will sometimes get greedy and instead of "doing good" with it, they will try to steal it for their own use. In my hometown, for example, the Anglican Church tried to use charitable funds from Anglicare, to pay compensation to victims of priestly child abuse (see link).

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/adelaides-anglic... (http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/adelaides-anglican-church-under-scrutiny-over-payments-to-workers-victims/story-e6frea83-1225872772338)

[Remember that Anglicare is completely separated from the Anglican Church. It was not found guilty of any crime and it was not ordered to pay compensation to anyone. The Church was merely trying to protect its own funds and use Government cash to meet its obligations.]

Is there any restriction on what the churches do that constitutes charitable work?

I know that some of those church charities will hand out bibles, or setup a church in some far flung corner of the world, if they do that, is it considered by the government to be charitable.

If that's the case, then it stinks.

In relation to the tin rattling, I was driving with a friend down the Hume Highway in April, when I saw a car warning of cyclists ahead, I was curious about it, and it turned out to be "riding for bibles". I felt really conflicted, as a cyclist I supported them, as an atheist, I wanted to hurl abuse at them.

James

Logic please
10th June 2011, 09:51 PM
Hi JB, welcome to the forum, fine first post. :)

Hope you enjoy our community. :)
Is there any restriction on what the churches do that constitutes charitable work?

I know that some of those church charities will hand out bibles, or setup a church in some far flung corner of the world, if they do that, is it considered by the government to be charitable.

If that's the case, then it stinks.
Do you have any references for this? AFAIK, under tax law, anything classified as "advancement of religion (http://www.ato.gov.au/nonprofit/content/13267.htm)" is considered "charitable" by default.

In relation to the tin rattling, I was driving with a friend down the Hume Highway in April, when I saw a car warning of cyclists ahead, I was curious about it, and it turned out to be "riding for bibles". I felt really conflicted, as a cyclist I supported them, as an atheist, I wanted to hurl abuse at them.
Ha, perhaps you could've compromised, and hurled bibles at them*. ;) After all, you weren't going to be needing them, and they might have needed spares, if they lost theirs en route... ;):D

* Disclaimer: kids, don't try this at home. Not intended as actual serving suggestion.