Scouts and Atheism [Archive]

Robsta

7th June 2011, 08:16 AM

This was said to my 12 yr old son by a scout leader (who is known to speak more often than think!) who asked my son in front of group "what are your religious beliefs?". My boy's response was "I dont have any...Im an athiest". He was then publicly lectured on not just following what yr parents tell you & thinking for yourself (LOL). It was then finished off with "there is no place at scouts for an athiest". I would love to respond with "there is no place for scouts in our lives, so go F+?% yourself" BUT my son loves it, camping, canoeing etc etc. This is the first issue we have encountered like this after many years. I have searched for some 'legal' response to do with discrimination. Does anyone know the actual rule for Scouts Victoria? or similar organisations in general.

cyclist

7th June 2011, 09:01 AM

I was in the Scouts years ago, and from memory there was no religion really involved. I believe that it was originally founded as a xtian organisation, but I suspect that in many cases it has moved beyond that to something more secular in most cases.

Is there another troop that he can potentially join? Or are you in an area that only has the one troop?

James

Lilith

7th June 2011, 09:05 AM

~The importance of respect for and equity in dealings with all people, irrespective of culture, gender, religion or impairment.

I've had a similar experience many moons ago with the girl guides, but as a leader. I responded to a newspaper story saying the local chapter was desperate for volunteer leaders, because there was nobody to do it and the group would close down if they couldn't find anybody.
I lasted about a month with another volunteer (also an atheist) before one of the girls told their committee mother that I didn't lead prayer for the group. (I'd been giving them time to have a prayer of their own if they wanted one, but not leading or requiring that anybody participated in it)..
I got a call from the committee to say that it was required that I lead a prayer, I said I wasn't going to, they said "Ok, don't bother coming in on Friday." and that was that. The other volunteer left also and the last I heard, the group closed down. They may be back up and running now though, that was more than a decade ago in another state, so I haven't been keeping tabs.
The only other group that I've experienced with the same level of internal self-righteousness and backstabbing politics is the Salvos.
Best of luck with it.

Xeno

7th June 2011, 09:27 AM

It varies. God was an important part when scouts were founded and was an assumed part of scouts in the late fifties and early sixties, when I abandoned it because I was not too keen on the groping (girl guides not included).

In their current form their principles are not supposed to inflict god even though I would expect a comparatively conservative and hierarchical group, which scouts is, to lean more in that direction.

Durro

7th June 2011, 10:06 AM

If I remember from my scouting days, (30+ years ago), the scout's vows were....

"On my honour, I promise I will do my best, to do my duty to God and the Queen, to help other people and to keep the scout law".

So, I guess there's no room in Scouts for Republicans or Atheists.

:rolleyes:

stewiegriffin81

7th June 2011, 12:54 PM

I have searched for some 'legal' response to do with discrimination. Does anyone know the actual rule for Scouts Victoria? or similar organisations in general.

Private clubs/associations are normally exempt from discrimination laws (in terms of things like membership). So for example, Scouts could legally exclude atheists from joining their organisation if they wanted to.

Mentally Saturated

7th June 2011, 02:21 PM

...I guess there's no room in Scouts for Republicans or Atheists. :rolleyes:

Private clubs/associations are normally exempt from discrimination laws (in terms of things like membership). So for example, Scouts could legally exclude atheists from joining their organisation if they wanted to.

So how, then, do they reconcile...

The importance of respect for and equity in dealings with all people, irrespective of culture, gender, religion or impairment.

..., may I ask ? Just like the Census and religion perhaps.. it assumes you have one ?

Fucking hypocrisy, that's how.

They let this particular leader join with his intellectual impairment, didn't they ? :mad:

Gary

ABridgeTooFar

7th June 2011, 02:27 PM

Wow, adults did that? They are acting like immature kids. YOU MUST FOLLOW MY RELIGION OR LEAVE.

I bet they have no issue with Islam (well they would, but they wouldn't have the balls to say "no muslims here"). Go back and say you have taken their words into serious consideration and as a result of thinking for yourself you converted to Islam.

Actually don't take my advice i have no idea of scouts. :D

deesl4e

7th June 2011, 02:52 PM

So, I guess there's no room in Scouts for Republicans or Atheists.

:rolleyes:

Well I'd be well and truly fucked then.;)

gruber

7th June 2011, 03:28 PM

should teach ya kid how to get Odin on his arse, or mention his god as nailed to a cross and his has a large hammer

Loki

7th June 2011, 04:20 PM

I was a scout for going on 17-18 years and never had a problem cause I just ignored that bit the simply didn't say those particular words. Spawn is in Joeys now and I'd like him to do the same.

There is nothing in the organisation which requires religious observance and so much kids can gain from the programme.

I also would really like to know if they are exempted from the anti-discrimination laws, cause that would be bullshit.

I do know that the American scouts are allowed to be cunts, but the Australian scouts are basically a different organisation under the same umbrella so that doesn't neccessarily follow, and they have to operate under Australian law.

Scouts are one of those mobs which don't care which religion you have as long as you have one. We had a muslim troop nearby us and a mormon one, was funny cause the mormons wouldn't turn up to camp till late Saturday night or Sunday morning cause they weren't allowed to do anything on a Saturday and the muslims were always disappearing to do summat so weren't involved with a lot of what we were doing.

stewiegriffin81

7th June 2011, 04:48 PM

I also would really like to know if they are exempted from the anti-discrimination laws, cause that would be bullshit.

As mentioned before, they are exempt when it comes to membership purposes, as are all clubs (eg. men only clubs, women only gyms, etc etc.).

They aren't exempt when it comes to specific vilification/harrassment, or for employment (as I understand the legislation as a non-lawyer).

meridian

7th June 2011, 07:26 PM

They aren't exempt when it comes to specific vilification/harrassment, or for employment (as I understand the legislation as a non-lawyer).

Are they classed as a religious organisation? If so, they may be able to discriminate for employment in Victoria......

Coryate

8th June 2011, 04:20 AM

Noone said Baden-Powell was sane:-
http://www.usscouts.org/scoutduty/sd2gc94.asp

But I know you can't be an Atheist in the US Scouts, as there have been lawsuits about it. Oh, and you can't be gay either.

My Scoutmaster said it didn't matter as long as you thought there was a "High Power". I was fine as I thought Jedi's fitted that perfectly.

RealityRules

8th June 2011, 06:25 AM

Private clubs/associations are normally exempt from discrimination laws (in terms of things like membership). So for example, Scouts could legally exclude atheists from joining their organisation if they wanted to.

i wonder if any organisation could exclude atheists if it was not part of their charter to specify religious belief, or the charter did not specify excluding atheists.

Wonder how they go with kids from families of other beliefs such as Muslims, Hindus, etc. ?? Just goes to show how ridiculous the whole exclusion on belief thing is, as organisation such as Scouts that align with Xtianity will continue to back themselves into a corner.

Leaders that propose what they did to Coryate's kid may as run a church's camp site.

c2105026

8th June 2011, 08:41 PM

READ IT AND WEEP VICTORIA SCOUTS! Taken from Victorian Equal Opportunity Act 2010.....

Division 6—Discrimination by clubs and club members
64 Discrimination against applicants for membership
A club, or a member of the committee of
management or other governing body of a club,
must not discriminate against a person who
applies for membership of the club—
(a) in determining the terms of a particular
category or type of membership of the club;
or
(b) in the arrangements made for deciding who
should be offered membership; or
(c) by refusing, or failing to accept, the person's
application for membership; or
(d) in the way in which the person's application
is processed; or
(e) in the terms on which the person is admitted
as a member.
65 Discrimination against club members
A club, or a member of the committee of
management or other governing body of a club,
must not discriminate against a member of the
club—
(a) by refusing, or failing to accept, the
member's application for a different category
or type of membership; or
(b) by denying or limiting access to any benefit
provided by the club; or
(c) by varying the terms of membership; or
(d) by depriving the member of membership; or
(e) by subjecting the member to any other
detriment.
66 Exception—clubs for minority cultures
A club, or a member of the committee of
management or other governing body of a club,
may exclude from membership a person who is
not a member of the group of people with an
attribute for whom the club was established if the
club operates principally to preserve a minority
culture.
67 Exception—clubs and benefits for particular age
groups
(1) A club, or a member of the committee of
management or other governing body of a club,
may exclude a person from membership if—
(a) the club exists principally to provide benefits
for people of a particular age group; and
(b) the person is not in that age group.
(2) A club, or a member of the committee of
management or other governing body of a club,
may restrict a benefit to members who are
members of a particular age group, if it is
reasonable to do so in the circumstances.
68 Exception—single sex clubs
(1) A club, or a member of the committee of
management or other governing body of a club,
may exclude from membership a person on the
basis of that person's sex if membership of the
club is available only to persons of the opposite
sex.
(2) A club referred to in subsection (1) must make its
rules of eligibility for membership publicly
available, without charge.
69 Exception—separate access to benefits for men and
women
A club, or a member of the committee of
management or other governing body of a club,
may limit a member's access to a benefit on the
basis of the member's sex if—
(a) it is not practicable for men and women to
enjoy the benefit at the same time; and
(b) either—
(i) access to the same or an equivalent
benefit is provided for men and women
separately; or
(ii) men and women are each entitled to a
reasonably equivalent opportunity to
enjoy the benefit.
*****************************
Based on the aforementioned, the discrimination the child faced is illegal. The only loopholes is if the victorian scouts say that they are a minority group, or if they say they are a religous order - of which they are neither. Ridiculing the child's atheist background is to the detriment of that clubs member.

Atheos

8th June 2011, 09:29 PM

I was in the scouts 4 decades ago and in my local troop I was one of very few that went to church [albeit by force], the issue of religion was never raised, other than the bs pledges, i loved all the camping, which we did a lot of, learning skills, how to read maps, basic survival, first aid, etc, if the scouts of today are discriminating it is totally the opposite of my experience, however, that's religion, attempting to get its slimy tentacles in to every aspect of anyone's and everyone's, lives.

hooa

9th June 2011, 04:52 AM

hooa

9th June 2011, 06:38 AM

I am certain it's quite possible for many twelve-year-old kids to know what an atheist is and be knowledgeable enough to state that they are one, all of their own volition.

Never underestimate the power of an enquiring mind.

Sure they may know what one is ... But to label themselves as one ... hmmm ... I'd have to see it to be convinced.

Logic

9th June 2011, 06:45 AM

Sure they may know what one is ... But to label themselves as one ... hmmm ... I'd have to see it to be convinced.

It's perfectly possible. I knew at 12 that I did not believe in a god and no doubt asked my parents what the word for that was. Kids are smarter than you seem to be giving them credit for.

hooa

9th June 2011, 07:04 AM

You were able to invent "Reverse religious indoctrination" with no evidence.

Did you like that?

You can use it if you like :D

hooa

9th June 2011, 07:23 AM

It's perfectly possible. I knew at 12 that I did not believe in a god and no doubt asked my parents what the word for that was. Kids are smarter than you seem to be giving them credit for.

Well ... you dont really know what I think about children apart from that one statement so ... sheesh.

Yes I know that kids are smart ... very smart ... very very smart ... I have a couple of very, very, very smart ones of my own ...

GASP ... are you shocked?

But as far as a 12 year old child proclaiming to be an atheist, well ... I'll look around on youtube for one ... Im not convinced.

I need to see it to believe it.

RealityRules

9th June 2011, 08:03 AM

... as far as a 12 year old child proclaiming to be an atheist, well ... I'll look around on youtube for one ... Im not convinced.

I need to see it to believe it.

I know several 11-12 yr olds that do. Really smart kids.

Xeno

9th June 2011, 09:23 AM

Why could they ever not say they do not believe in god, if equally they can say they do? It seems completely unremarkable.

Lilith

9th June 2011, 09:37 AM

I need to see it to believe it.

This kid manages to do it surrounded by religious nuts - going by the rest of the 'jesus camp' vids, pretty sure it's an idea he's arrived at all by himself. He doesn't use the word 'atheist', but if he came across the word somewhere, it'd probably be one that he'd identify himself with.

iBZFOhla4mA

Aldaron

9th June 2011, 09:44 AM

My son is 14 now, and I can't remember a time he's ever believed in God. We taught him about God, religion and Christianity (only because we were the most familiar with it and it's the most influential religion on his own culture) as part of his "general" education of the world. We taught him what we could of other religions, but always in the sense of their influence on history and culture.

So he grew up looking at religion in the same way he looks at, say, wuxia films - there are some interesting influences there, and it can be a bit of fun to look at how they've evolved and changed.

But they're no more "real" than Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.

Lilith

9th June 2011, 10:27 AM

Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon is SO real! You take that back! *runs away, sobbing*

Logic

9th June 2011, 11:18 AM

Well ... you dont really know what I think about children apart from that one statement so ... sheesh.

You are quite right. I was basing my opinion off your one statement. Apologies.

GASP ... are you shocked?

Not really. Not really digging your 'tude though.

But as far as a 12 year old child proclaiming to be an atheist, well ... I'll look around on youtube for one ... Im not convinced.

I need to see it to believe it.

I just told you I was one. Would you like me to upload a video to youtube to prove it?

Worldslaziestbusker

9th June 2011, 11:22 AM

Young children shouldn't really give or have answers to those types of questions. They should just shrug them off with a 'dunno'

Honestly, if i heard a 12 year old say that they were atheist, I'd wonder what the parent was doing. It still looks something like reverse religious indoctrination to me.

At 12 I would have answered I was Anglican. I would have thought it was correct, too. The influence of the parents is of interest, as I would rather a child made the decision themselves rather than parroted a parent on tyhe matter, but the fact that the child felt comfortable identifying as atheist says a lot about a shift in societal attitudes toward atheism, and I hope this is the first of many children getting their voice heard on the matter.

c2105026

9th June 2011, 09:53 PM

In terms of indoctrination we have 2 choices. We could let youthworks inc grab our children with there tentacles, winning them over with lunch time 'youth groups' with fun games, pizza and ice cream, all the time plying them almost subliminaly with christian bull shit, simply only because their BFF does exactly the same thing.

Or we could get them thinking like a logical and rational human being as soo as they are able to do so. By the time a child has reaced piagetian concrete operation (about age of 8) this can well and truly be happening.

Senexis

9th June 2011, 10:11 PM

Honestly, if i heard a 12 year old say that they were atheist, I'd wonder what the parent was doing.

In my case it was "failing to convince me there was a god"

NatalieE

5th September 2011, 09:07 AM

Hi to all fellow atheists :)
I hope someone can give me some advice here! My 7 year old son is a Joey Scout (which is the scout before 'cubs' for up-to 8yr olds) and he has to complete a 'Promise Challenge' before he turns 8, in preparation - indeed, as a prequisite - for going up to Cubs which is the next scouting level. Anyway, he has three challenges, the first which is to do some research on Baden-Powell, the third which is to document a way he has helped another person in the community, however it is the second challenge which I find, understandably, insurmountable!
"Challenge 2: 'Duty to God' : Why do we say a prayer at the Joey Scout meeting? Write a prayer about what it means to 'love my God' and share at your Mob meeting or at a Scout's own."
Jeeesssusss! How creepy is that?! I read it very quickly when they handed it to me at pick up last week, and laughed out loud when I read that bit - I did say to her that it will be a problem for us, given we're a family of atheists (yes, I'm including my 7yr old son in that given he's also a non-drinker and a non-smoker, other traits which at this point I can exert a bit of control over!).
But - I am stumped as to what to substitute here... Should I go down the path of 'world peace' and acceptance of others and an exhaltation that people be free to be without religion in a world which is rich in scientific discovery? I feel I should emphasise an alternative, rather than simply substitute something to 'get over the line' so to speak. Given other parents attend these challenge presentations (when they're done), I'd like to think that the presentation of a justifiably different view might get them thinking? Anyway, if anyone could give me their idea of, perhaps, an alternative question to ponder, that a 7 year old might be able to grapple with, I'd really appreciate it. I'm going to admit that I'm new to the atheism school of thought, not because I've ever been a believer, but more because I'm only now feeling like I want to challenge all the crazy belief that's out there chipping away at the wonderful knowledge so hard-earned by brilliant people... And once you pick up on something, it's awfully hard to ignore it again! cheers, Natalie.

wolty

5th September 2011, 09:14 AM

Yep, ethics and humanity or maybe tolerance and equality.

Loki

5th September 2011, 09:25 AM

Let us know how you go please, so I have something to go with when we get that far. So far I've gone with "he's 7 FFS, he doesn't have the skills or experience to know what he thinks". I do wonder how antidiscrimination laws apply in this case.

NatalieE

5th September 2011, 09:28 AM

Loki, I wondered about the antidiscrimination angle too...

Loki

5th September 2011, 09:45 AM

I would like to see this tested myself. The scouts is not a religion under any definition of the word I can think of, and is therefore not permitted to discriminate under the act as far as I can see. Talking about the QLD act here, as that is where I is and I don't know where you are.

Would be interested in any thoughts of anyone with a legal background. Not saying that legal proceedings are warranted or anything, just would like to know where things stand by the law.

Chasly

12th September 2011, 12:10 PM

We went to our first cub scout meeting last week. I was a bit taken aback when they opened with a prayer.

Help us, O Lord,
to serve thee day by day,
To do our duty and to enjoy our play,
To keep our Club Scout Promise and to rest,
Happy that we have tried to do our best.

My apprehensions about joining my 9yo related more to molestation. Rightly or wrongly, when I think of scouts I think of children being abused. I think its because of 'stories' I have heard over the years. Not even sure where I heard these stories - maybe in the media somewhere.
What I will say though is that the leader repeated many times that all volunteers needed to have a 'Working with Children' card. I didn't even enquire about this, but for some reason she felt the need to repeat it several times.

It never occurred to me that there is a religious element within scouts but I am hoping its not strong enough for me to pull my son out. He can't wait til the next meet - he had so much fun and definitely wants to join up.

I can see why kids love scouts but all that saluting and chanting goes against my grain for some reason.

Senexis

12th September 2011, 02:18 PM

Hmmm... publicly-proclaimed subservience to god, and child-molestation. Where else have I seen those hand-in-hand?

I took my 6yo to Joeys once. He didn't particularly enjoy it (I forgot how much scouts was like that creepy old aunt who smelled of cat food) and I've quietly not taken him since. There's no way I'd leave him alone in the company of adults who'll push god on him.

Aldaron

12th September 2011, 02:34 PM

I think two questions need to be asked:

1) Is Scouts a private organisation? (I'm not asking this rhetorically - I honestly don't know if they are)

2) If they are privately owned/operated, do they take public money?

To my mind, public money = you follow the rules everyone else does. If you're the Catholic church and you want to ban lesbians from becoming priests, fine...but don't you fucking dare take a single cent of taxpayers' money (either directly, or indirectly through tax exemptions). If you do, you're a publicly-funded organisation and you can damned well adhere to the same anti-discrimination laws as the public service sector...

Secme

26th September 2011, 09:24 AM

I was in scouts for 13 years. I trained to be a leader, and my sister was a leader for 10 years. I used to know a few of the higher ups (and my Sister definately does being she got her queen scout and Baden Powel award), but I am planning on becomming a cub leader when my son starts, and following him through as a leader due to his special needs. I am not bothering with Joeys as he is too young I think at the moment.

So I am sure I can at least change things at his group. But give me a few years and I will go before the executive happily.

Paradox of Thrift

8th December 2011, 01:53 PM

I'm a Joey leader and my group has been happily meeting, playing games, learning stuff for a few years. Both my daughters have done it and they love it. In my meetings I have explicitly excluded religion for the whole time I have been there.

Yesterday a woman from the 'District' turns up to give me some pointers and starts to introduce prayers, etc. to the meeting - much to my and the other parents amazement. While she was praying myself and a number of the parents were all looking at each other in bewilderment. Some of the kids joined in - bit an overwhelming majority of them didn't know what prayer is and why we'd do it.

I am an aethiest. I'm normally outwardly courteous to religious people, but I have strong private views that are pretty much dismissive and negative towards all religious beliefs. I'm sure I don't have to explain to people in this forum.

The official line - from the organisation is that Religion is an essential component of Scouting. But I would never impose religion on children - so I'll continue to run a secular programme.

I decided try and unearth some opinion or wisdom about this and unearthed this thread - so I thought I'd add to it.

AFA Admin

8th December 2011, 01:58 PM

Hi, Paradox of Thrift.

This is a message sent to all who find their way to these forums.

We like people, and we like facts too!

We're friendly but we're skeptical, and if somebody calls for proof, it's not an accusation. Only the strong ideas thrive here: we try to respect people. (We do not tolerate personal abuse.)

You may already have visited these other handy places:
* New Member Information (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=12)
* Welcome from AFA president (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=18)
* For those interested in learning, I recommend the Atheism Resource Thread (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=7608) maintained by Fearless.
* And a quick look at our reserved spot for belief-based discussion, Fantasy Island (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=16), includes The Great Big List (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showthread.php?t=4784), a sort-of "things we've seen before" for those of faith, and general rules of argument for the forum.

If you've got questions, please ask. Moderators have red name tags, but many of our friendly people may have the answers you need.

Enjoy the forums. We hope to see plenty from you in discussions.

Have fun.

Logic please

9th December 2011, 12:00 AM

Hi PoT, welcome to the forum. :) Seconding Mr Black, I look forward to an intro post in Welcome New Members, if you'd like to make one.
In my meetings I have explicitly excluded religion for the whole time I have been there.
From this, is religious material interspersed throughout the Joeys program? I also note:
The official line - from the organisation is that Religion is an essential component of Scouting.
Given these, I'm interested to know how you've been able to exclude all religious material?
I am an aethiest. I'm normally outwardly courteous to religious people, but I have strong private views that are pretty much dismissive and negative towards all religious beliefs. I'm sure I don't have to explain to people in this forum.
Methinks some background re: your thinking on this, would be a worthy inclusion in a Welcome New Members intro. :)
I decided try and unearth some opinion or wisdom about this and unearthed this thread - so I thought I'd add to it.
Thanks for adding to it. :)

poita

27th January 2012, 02:37 AM

We have the same issue, our daughter (7) has to make the promise and talk about what her duty to god means to her.
She doesn't currently believe in any god, even though she has gone to scripture at school, she just doesn't think it makes sense.
She also doesn't want to lie.

According to scouts she *must* believe in 'a' god to be a member, surely this is discrimination?

We are still waiting on an official reply from Scouts Australia, but you can see from these links from Scouts NSW that we are not hopeful.

http://www.nsw.scouts.com.au/images/stories/documents/Leader%20Support/LSG35_dutyToGodInScouting.pdf

A cornerstone of Scouting is the need for us to promote “Duty to God”. While we do not require members to belong to any particular religion we insist that they have a faith, a belief in God (One who is; a Supreme Being – a Creator – a Ruler of the Universe). When asked where religion came into Scouting and Guiding, Baden-Powell replied "It does not come in at all. It is already there. It is a fundamental factor underlying Scouting and Guiding".

http://www.nsw.scouts.com.au/images/stories/documents/Leader%20Support/LSG20_JoinOrRemain_Discrimination.pdf

Ce4or

27th January 2012, 04:42 PM

A belief in God, One who is; a Supreme Being – a Creator – a Ruler of the UniverseSo scouts are sort of probationary masons:D

wolty

27th January 2012, 04:53 PM

So scouts are sort of probationary masons:D

I thought the same thing.

It doesn't matter what sort of god you believe in, as long as you subscribe to a higher power. :facepalm:

Seems to keep people in line they have to reinforce the idea of someone always watching over them. Maybe santa would do.

znk666

28th January 2012, 12:56 AM

Girl scouts i believe are rather ''secular'' and understanding.
Boy scouts however, i have heard are mostly indoctrinated by Mormons.

Logic please

28th January 2012, 03:08 PM

Girl scouts i believe are rather ''secular'' and understanding.
Boy scouts however, i have heard are mostly indoctrinated by Mormons.
@znk: sources for your claims, please?

For info, re: Girl Guides Victoria (http://www.guidesvic.org.au/_uploads/154811GO_57_Religion.pdf):
Girl Guides Australia expects all members to acknowledge spiritual principles and a personal responsibility to search for and live according to a spiritual dimension greater than themselves.
Leaders should realise that their own example and participation are important aspects for the spiritual growth of the girl members. Leaders must also respect their special requirements of the faith to which any member belongs, and take these into account when planning activities.

Sounds more "interfaith' to me, than secular.

The most informative that I can find on Scouts Australia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Scouting#Scouts_Australia):
In Australia, Scouting makes no effort to find out if potential members are atheists or agnostics. The Australian Scout promise contains "duty to my god" as opposed to "duty to god" used by many other countries. Where religious services on camps are held, they are usually held for Catholics and Anglicans, this is because of the religious representation amongst scout and leaders rather than any written rules.
Worldwide, the organisation's beginnings appear to be xtian:

When creating the Scouting method, Baden-Powell was adamant that there was a place for God within it.
In Scouting for Boys (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/wiki/Scouting_for_Boys), Baden-Powell wrote specifically about Christianity, since he was writing for youth groups in the United Kingdom (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/wiki/United_Kingdom):
We aim for the practice of Christianity in their everyday life and dealings, and not merely the profession of theology on Sundays…

znk666

28th January 2012, 09:41 PM

@znk: sources for your claims, please?

Scouts Australia

In Australia, Scouting makes no effort to find out if potential members are atheists or agnostics. The Australian Scout promise contains "duty to my god" as opposed to "duty to god" used by many other countries. Where religious services on camps are held, they are usually held for Catholics and Anglicans, this is because of the religious representation amongst scout and leaders rather than any written rules.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Scouting#Scouts_Australia

Religion in Scouts Australia

To become a member of the Scout movement you are required to make the Scout Promise.The unique wording in the Australian Scout Promise of “do my best to do my duty to my God" allows some flexibility and the movement is open to people of all religious faiths that can make this promise. Those who can not make this promise are unable to become members.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouts_Australia#Religion_in_Scouts_Australia

Sorry my statement was referring to Scouts in America,not Australia.
But this is what found.

wolty

29th January 2012, 05:58 AM

Znk, it was the Mormon thing you mentioned.

I have heard lots and lots of things in my life, doesn't make them true. Refs are always a good place to start.

NatalieE

6th February 2012, 09:53 AM

HI all. Just thought I'd 'share' my/our response to the 2ND arm of my son's 'Promise Challenge' badge - this reads as follows:

2. Duty to God
why do we say a prayer at the Joey scout meeting?
write a prayer about what it means to 'love my God' and share it with your Mob meeting or at a Scout's own.

Our response:

The Golden Rule: Treat others as you would want to be treated.
Why the prayer? Baden Powell belived in god like many people did in those days. He believed that's what made people 'good'. But - you can be good and kind and helpful and respectful and healthy and HAPPY without belief!
Believe in the Golden Rule (this is innate, which means inborn or natural). TREAT OTHERS AS YOU WOULD WANT TO BE TREATED!
An 'ethical code' for Joey Scouts:
"As Joey Scouts, we can make the world a better place by treating others as we would want to be treated - with respect, dignity and compassion. Help one another, try to always be kind, take care of the planet - we are all part of humanity!

I am expecting some 'hmms' and 'haaas' from crowd of parents and potentially leaders, though I'm not expecting too much trouble from the leaders insofar as they probably see me as having a fairly 'strong' personality and would not likely be prepared to provoke any type of argument. It will be interesting, however, to see if my son is accepted into Cubs on the strength of this response - the promise challenge thing must be completed as your 'entrance' exam to go 'up' into the next group. as he turned 8 over the holidays, he no longer qualifies for Joeys.

The first challenge requirement entailed a bit of research on Baden Powell himself... In fact, the question reads 'Find out about five interesting things about B-P...'
The brilliant thing is, once you start looking around it doesn't take long before you come across research which reveals his penchant for fascism - Hitler and Mussollini, and his enthusiasm for 'Mein Kampf' (!) as well as strong evidence of homosexuality... typical hypocrisy from a xian don't you think? I mean in terms of damning homosexuals to hell rather than the fascist stuff which kind of goes hand-in-hand and isn't surprising. But it would be good info to bring up should the response to the god question be hailed as too atheist and twisted!
Presenting tonight, I imagine it will be passed on to the powers that be for a decision by next week. Wish us luck!
Natalie, Blackburn Vic.

Logic please

6th February 2012, 11:57 AM

Good luck Natalie, please let us know how the decision pans out. :)

poita

7th February 2012, 11:39 PM

I'm really keen to hear how this went. We are taking a similar tack next week!

TimB

9th February 2012, 09:38 AM

I'd be keen to hear how it goes also. Oldest is 5yrs and we are thinking about cubs - the whole religion thing puts me off though. I guess it depends on what the leaders are like.

I did cubs, scouts and venturers and got a lot out of it. The only recollection of any religious input was a bit of a prayer at the beginning of meetings in scouts during which myself, most of the other boys and assistant leaders just looked around anywhere but down.

rayne

4th December 2012, 11:53 AM

We have the same issue, our daughter (7) has to make the promise and talk about what her duty to god means to her.
She doesn't currently believe in any god, even though she has gone to scripture at school, she just doesn't think it makes sense.
She also doesn't want to lie.

According to scouts she *must* believe in 'a' god to be a member, surely this is discrimination?

We are still waiting on an official reply from Scouts Australia, but you can see from these links from Scouts NSW that we are not hopeful.

http://www.nsw.scouts.com.au/images/stories/documents/Leader%20Support/LSG35_dutyToGodInScouting.pdf

http://www.nsw.scouts.com.au/images/stories/documents/Leader%20Support/LSG20_JoinOrRemain_Discrimination.pdf

Do keep us informed. It's sweet and awesome that your daughter doesn't want to lie and she stands her ground.

Mr.PinkEyes

4th December 2012, 02:34 PM

I agree with all of the above sentiments.

Secme

5th December 2012, 07:14 AM

I emailed Scouts NSW to offer to be a leader as I went the whole way through scouts, and I advised I would like to enter my son into a troop, now I have read those PDF's I don't know. Maybe we could start a petition or something to get them to realise how many they are missing out on/annoying.

prudie

5th December 2012, 09:56 AM

I am a little surprised that Scouts didn't drop god and the Queen hen the Guides did last year. I am a Guide leader and I manage to keep the woo out even before the change to the promise and law but now I don't have to worry about it all. The only time I have issues is when I do combined activities with other units. I always tell the other leader if they say grace I will absent myself andihave a list of girls whose parents have stipulated to me no religion and those girls must be absent during any woo too. I will take those girls out fora walk for five minutes.

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stigger

5th December 2012, 10:45 AM