A Sermon By Steve Wakeford (Miracles Galore)

[youngmoigle]

I've been listening to some of Steve Wakeford's sermons which can be downloaded here:
http://www.menaianglican.org/index.php?id=89&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=204&tx_ttnews%5BbackPid%5D=36&cHash=44c952d3b5

Latch onto "Spiritual Warfare" (12/4/2008) and pay particular attention from 8m 10s to 9m 26s. Steve is telling the story of his friend, a missionary named Graham Martin, who was so successful in converting New Guinea natives to Christianity that the local witch doctor decided to kill him with a bow and arrow. Poor old Graham just stood there, thinking he was about to die as the arrow hurtled towards him and then, says Steve, The arrow "stops, a foot away from his chest, in mid-air, then snaps in two, and falls to the ground, yeah, exactly."

So the next night the witch doctor attempted to kill Graham by burning his house down, but when he got there, he could see about 100 people inside and decided he'd better not...But it wasn't real people in the house says Steve, it was 100 angels protecting Graham from harm!

That's the sort of rubbish he's preaching to those poor Anglican kids at the Menai church. I wonder what sort of stuff he's got in that DVD he is flogging in the schoolyard.

[TÐöer]

youngmoigle, which 1 is it? I get the index page.
--------------------------------------------------------
I'm learning to curse now.....

What a tall tale. Wonder if it was perpertrated by him, or his friend.

1. Give a native a chocolate bar and he'll join any religion you choose.
2. If the arrow did do that, wouldn't the witch doctor get a hint? They'd pray to his missionary friend as a God.
3. How do you fit 100 angels in his house? a church even?
4. How did he get the story of the 100 people from the witch doctor?
5. How did anybody know there were a 100? did they go 1 person at a time and not their names?
6. How do they know those were angels? And not ghost sent by another witch doctor? lol.

[youngmoigle]

youngmoigle, which 1 is it? I get the index page.
--------------------------------------------------------
I'm learning to curse now.....

What a tall tale. Wonder if it was perpertrated by him, or his friend.

1. Give a native a chocolate bar and he'll join any religion you choose.
2. If the arrow did do that, wouldn't the witch doctor get a hint? They'd pray to his missionary friend as a God.
3. How do you fit 100 angels in his house? a church even?
4. How did he get the story of the 100 people from the witch doctor?
5. How did anybody know there were a 100? did they go 1 person at a time and not their names?
6. How do they know those were angels? And not ghost sent by another witch doctor? lol.

I also wondered whose story it was, Graham's or Steve's (or a collaboration).

I just checked the link - it's going to the right page. The Spiritual Warfare Sermon is 2nd on the list [Right click on it and "Save Target As"]

Actually the witch doctor did get the hint after he was foiled by the angels. According to Steve, he became a Christian the next day.

One hundred angels in a house would be easy. A few centuries ago they did a lot of research into the number of angels that could dance on the head of a pin - and I'm sure it was more than one hundred.

I got the impression that Steve was preaching to teenage boys - and he certainly knows how to get their attention. He started with the ghost story just mentioned and then told another one about lesbian love with just a hint of demon possession for added spice. The lads would have enjoyed that one. [Cunning old Steve]

[The Irreverent Mr Black]

Later today I'll dig out the notes I was sharing with another member here, about that very same sermon.

You may be astounded.

[The Irreverent Mr Black]

After coffee and a few errands, here's my notes on Steve Wakeford's "Spiritual Warfare" sermon, as PM'ed to another member of this forum.

Dissection of Fakeford ser-moan
48 mins - yeesh!

I did a lot of the AOG (and an independent fundie woo church) learnings on this, so let's have a go...

Arrow in mid-air? Reliable testimony of displaced white man, scared shitless among PNG natives, at very traumatic moment? Bzzzt.

The twenty guys thing... let me see: I can write this before I hear it! It will be something like "scared off by the big tough white guys you had guarding the place...". This is an old one, dragged out and adopted to fit new names and conditions, by just about every whacker talking angels or spiritual warfare. When I heard the tale, it was Africa.

Now takes pause off 9:50...

I win! Oh yeah, the witchdoctor always gets converted too. It's an important trope in this tale. There ought to be a Godsnopes.

Q: Why does witch-doctor ALWAYS confess what he was about to do, quite candidly? Why does Witchiepoo also convert, straight up, no questions asked? I would expect the occasional one to be like Simon Magus in Acts 8, and want to buy a franchise on the awesome skillzor for their own use.

Another trope for these tales is that they happened to a friend of the narrator, whom nobody hearing the tale is likely to encounter.

BTW, one hundred people would fit in the missionary's house, and witchiepoo would believe this? They're paying them missionaries too much.

11 min - The Dyke Wife Story...
(LINK REDACTED BY BLACK) - I wrote this in May 2008.

Same ol' same ol'. It is a great attention getting stunt among xtians.

16 min: Job? Written as a play or a bedtime story. Even us deep wacko fundies got taught that! He's doing it as full-on literalism. (Sits, twiddling fingers, waiting for those trees to clap their hands like in the book.)

Okay, he's doing the death thing and being far less freako than a fundy would have done it, give him credit for that.

19 min: he's just about down to singing "yield not to temptation".

20 min: Oh dear, he's turned into a football coach.

22 min: yep, coach. Ooh, look we're annoying satan.

23 min: Soldier, you are at war when you are having a poop.... blah blah.

25 min: Yeah, teamtalk stuff.

Endless repetitions of "you are pleasing god and you are pissing off satan".

BTW Steve must have the pr0nzor on his puter. He carries on at length about it. Sin tales in detail are often autobiographical.

28 min: Still coach talk... "I get knocked down, but I get up again..." sing along with the Chumbies.

29 min: Teh sexzor and the marriage thingy. Almost see him with god and devil glove puppets doing Yay and Boo as appropriate now, it's so friggin' Punch and Judy.

32 min: anecdote. Geez, what about I ask if you've Girded Up Your Loins today or something boring, every fecking time I phone? Argh.

33 min: he is waffling, has his dotpoints and needs to get thru them.

34 min: Ever been in a Roman prison, Paulie?

37 min: "cut to ribbons" this is sheer waffle.

We need to do a podcast! This is comedic gold!

38 min: "one of those blokes, the kind that only laughs at his own jokes." (Thank you, Billy Bragg.) A horrid laugh it is.

38:20 - the kids have to listen to sermons all day? This creature will be smothered in a nursing home.

39 min: So it's never give an inch, be terrified to concede a point, chant prayers in your head lalalalalala when the logic is getting to you.

41 min: Jeebus says keep standing. (Geez, who'd want this article as a friend? He's be putting shit on you in sermoans all the time.)

42 min: oh, reconciling lost sinners? we got to get a "pray for me and I'll lay atheist pamphlets" campaign going.

44 min: more waffle.

45 min: say your spell to satan. at least the fecking witchdoctor used real arrows.

46:25 - sounds like he's revising the lesson rahter than talking to the sky fairy. Old Ploy, I did it too.

Poorly done. Needed more emphasis. I would have fallen asleep.

I will PM the redacted link to Youngmoigle.

[davo]

very interested in the witchdoctor story, considering I have a lot of contacts over there that are not christians but native landowners, indeed they have a lot of issues with these christians. They work with those from the phillipines, backing the corporations that have industry in the area, 'converting the natives' along with giving a nice clean jesus image to what they are doing to the country and it's people in the name of PROFIT (and funding of their christian university)

[The Irreverent Mr Black]

very interested in the witchdoctor story, considering I have a lot of contacts over there that are not christians but native landowners, indeed they have a lot of issues with these christians. They work with those from the phillipines, backing the corporations that have industry in the area, 'converting the natives' along with giving a nice clean jesus image to what they are doing to the country and it's people in the name of PROFIT (and funding of their christian university)
Interesting. The first time I heard the witchdoctor story, it was from an area in Africa which was also the subject of what was basically a black-v-white land struggle. (I cannot be more specific, as my source does not wish to be identified.)

In the African case, the witchdoctor was also a leader of a troop of armed black guys (call them insurgents, terrorists, freedom fighters, or "late for dinner": it's politics and thus debatable), the source was a person one step removed (named, but no chance the hearer would ever contact them) and the "angels" were supposedly blocking the line of fire whenever one of the black guys was drawing a bead on a white person in the compound.

Now, like me, you may be wondering why the black guy did not shoot the white guy who was blocking his fire, one victim being pretty well as good as another.

The instant repentance, conversion and full disclosure of everything (and in this case, I am thinking that the risk of a firing squad may have had some influence, if the story is even partially true) factors are common.

In the secular world, these unverifiable urban legends are sometimes referred to as Whale Tumour Stories, or WTS for short. (I have owned a copy of Rodney Dale's excellent book The Tumour In The Whale (http://www.fernhouse.com/book-pages/whaletumour.html), since the late seventies, and it's surprising how many of the stories turn up, having happened to a friend-of-a-friend of the narrator.

It seems that the ecclesiastical version goes closer, in that it's happened to somebody the narrator knows. The common factor is that the audience is unable to contact the subject of the alleged miracle: the story has to stay just far enough out of reach to preserve the magic that is only found in beautiful untruths.

And yes, I am intrigued by the cultural factor you mention. For a bronze age (or is it iron age by 4BC?) Middle Eastern subject of Roman occupation, Jesus seems to have developed an unhealthy interest in making sure his followers behave like American WASPS as much as locally possible.

[davo]

A lot of the native people follow catholicism, and a lot are pagan, especially in the areas I have contacts in with regard native landowners.

Certain Philippine companies have their own pastors of the evangelical variety that are also their front men for the media etc (the face of jesus is a good advertising tool). They have moved into areas, and indeed have been banned by community leaders in some areas for causing division amongst communities. Doing stuff like organising workshops for women on sewing and cooking, then preaching at them for the whole time etc

There is also land disputes, for the native Melanesians, the land is not owned, but is everyones, you get problems when the religious archdiocese for instance, sell the freehold land they are in charge of, to the government, then it's sold onto large corporations, and these corporations happen to be largely evangelical christian owned. The natives do not understand this ownership of land concept, and the religions have made a lot of money out of it. Not to mention the subsequent control.

religion is just causing massive division in PNG along with a lot of money, it's bad enough the catholics having got in their early, but now you have the move by these other 'proper christians' as they call themselves, doing all they can to spread their word, and the people are caught in the middle. Both sides of the religious debate are making money out of it however.

religion sucks, especially with stories of 'witch doctors' and the continual defining of these people as savages by the religious 'holier than tho' (how degrading a term Steve!! Do you know anything about these people to make a claim? or just spreading stereotypes for your own gain? define them as 'savages' in stories to justify spreading your 'word'?)

argh they don't even see their hypocrisy, they flaunt their actions as 'good' meanwhile others that don't stand on the mountain crying out to a sky fairy about how 'good' they are, try picking up the pieces from the crap they are spreading. they wonder why atheists are angry .. sheesh it's for good reason.

[youngmoigle]

Sorry to head off topic so early, but the mention of urban legends reminded me of The Vanishing Hitchhiker, a version of which appears in Acts 8:26-39.
http://www.bambooweb.com/articles/t/h/The_Vanishing_Hitchhiker.html


And now, back to Steve Wakeford's sermons...

[youngmoigle]

Just found this story about a missionary protected by angels:
http://www.snopes.com/glurge/26guards.asp

Here's the same story from a Baptist:
http://elbourne.org/sermons/index.mv?illustration+3226

[I'm starting to wonder if Steve Wakeford might be a bit of a fibber]

[davo]

from the bottom of the snopes article :

"The Christian commandment about not bearing false witness just isn't getting the mileage it used to."

lol

[The Irreverent Mr Black]

I can say, without reservation, that I have lied here and there when doing the ministry thing.

If you're telling tales about something stupendous, and you want to own a little bit of the Legend, who isn't tempted to add their own pinch of to the mix?

Performance anxiety? Stuck with a perfectly factual story, which illustrates your sermon points but doesn't quite have what it takes to be scary/funny/on-topic as you'd like? Hey, do what story-tellers have been doing since not long after the invention of language: embellish, exaggerate or invent.

Perhaps this is the most subtle temptation facing the clergy. I think there may be evidence it's also one of the most widespread.

After all, there are so many more-appealing things a story can be, other than true.

http://rynosseros.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/cult_club.jpg

[youngmoigle]

I can say, without reservation, that I have lied here and there when doing the ministry thing.

If you're telling tales about something stupendous, and you want to own a little bit of the Legend, who isn't tempted to add their own pinch of to the mix?

Yeah, There was an incident in my block of flats some years ago and after telling my friends about it, I discovered that I'd got the details all mixed up. My friends though, agreed that my version was much funnier than the reality - and I've been telling the "lie" ever since.

In my defence, I'm not peddling the tale as "gawd strewth".

[Johno]

Spiritual warfare eh???

Lets start a war with whoever does not agree with our un-provable make believe.
Otherwise some other make believe guy will win out. WTF??
Is the devil a weapon of mass destruction.....no.
The devil is make believe, the REAL weapon of mass destruction is the church, it unfortunately IS real and causing mass destruction in society. And to top it off its government funded to some part....


I think more than enough wars have been fought for no good reason, let alone over some sky fairy.

Believing in the make believe will stop an arrow??? 100 angels around for dinner?? It just keeps getting more and more pathetic......

I think it's really scary that there are people that could be influenced by this type of mind poisoning hysteria.

These mind poisoning criminals need to be stopped before any more impressionable people fall victim to them.

[youngmoigle]

I think it's really scary that there are people that could be influenced by this type of mind poisoning hysteria.

These mind poisoning criminals need to be stopped before any more impressionable people fall victim to them.


I have often wondered how anyone could believe such nonsense, but I've just gone back to the sermon where Steve first assures his flock, "There is a room prepared for you in heaven..." So no problems as long as you stick with Jesus. Life is going to be a breeze, and it gets even better when you die.

But listen to what happens if you lose your faith and go across to the dark side:

"Satan...and all his demonic little mates are headed for an eternity, being roasted in a lake of burning sulphur."

How is a young person going to respond to a threat like that? Is a young person going to be strong enough to say "what a load of crap" or might they decide not to rock the boat and stay with religion "just in case."?

Most will take the "believe just in case" route. OK, they must also accept the stories of miraculous arrows and protecting angels, but hey, that's got to be better than roasting in hell for eternity...

And Steve must be thinking to himself, "How easy is this? I've already got them jumping through hoops. By the end of the year I'll own the silly buggers."

[The term Control Freak springs to mind]

[davo]

yea and christians talk about 'choice'

"In one hand, you have eternal life absolutely wonderful in this thing in heaven ... or in the other hand you can burn burn burn for eternity...'

some choice, that's basically coercion. It's bribery and a threat to get you to do something, that's not choice. Some god to put that onto kids.

[The Irreverent Mr Black]

School Bully type "choice": Punch in the head, or a kick to the guts?

There is nothing quite so disgusting as the word "choice" being used to describe arbitrary selection of one or more from a list of undesirable options.

[Protium]

I'm offering you a knee in the temple and a dagger up the clitoris....

[The Irreverent Mr Black]

I'm offering you a knee in the temple and a dagger up the clitoris....
Ooh, it's always the difficult ones.... "Thrown Off Beachy Head", please.

[youngmoigle]

Starting at the 18m 50s point of his sermon, Steve Wakeford reminds his flock that getting to church on a Saturday night is part of the "spiritual battle" against Satan:


On a Saturday night you guys are getting ready for Church...and the spiritual battle starts. How often have you guys been asked out somewhere on a Saturday night and then had a battle between yourselves thinking am I gonna go out, am I gonna go to Church.


To those who think they might prefer to be doing something else, Steve replies:


Hey, there's six other days in the week. Do it then. Come here. Make this a priority.


Now church on Saturday night is a bit unusual, so why has Steve chosen to preach at that time? He knows it messes up the kid's social life, yet he insists they come to church instead.

As I suggested in an earlier post, I think Steve is a control freak who get's his jollies by organising other people's lives. He doesn't care what other people want or need, just so long as he's pulling the strings.

...or am I being too harsh?

[Kid]

"Now church on Saturday night is a bit unusual, so why has Steve chosen to preach at that time? He knows it messes up the kid's social life, yet he insists they come to church instead."

yeah, exactly. I'm thinking that a lot of these people are borderline psychopaths; maniacs who find a safe place to attack other people's lives within the safety and security of religion and the Xian church.

Society never questions religion, never challenges it or even asks for explanations as to its methods. As Dawkins says, religion is given automatic respect, so its a safe place for psychopaths and sociopaths to hide out - some symptoms of the sociopath/psychopath: from http://www.9types.com/wwwboard/messages/18332.html
not learning from experience
no sense of responsibility
inability to form meaningful relationships
inability to control impulses
lack of moral sense
chronically antisocial behavior
no change in behavior after punishment
emotional immaturity
lack of guilt
self-centeredness

sound like people we know?

Religion is a great place for these people to find an outlet for their nasty drives; and what makes it all the more horrifying is the total free rein they have over children and young adults. they are never questioned over their 'teaching' methods. You or I wouldn't be able to have control over children like these people do, and all without a word of criticism from any quarter; not the government, not social commentators, no one questions their methods or what is being taught. It blows my mind at how these pricks get away, time and time again, with all manner of filth and manipulation towards children/young people.:mad:

[The Irreverent Mr Black]

Very good point, Kid.

One of the friends of The Evil Vicar's Wife has a saying I rather like, describing a certain manager in a church-run organisation: "Of course he's always nice and likeable; he's a sociopath!"

[stevewakeford]

g'day blokes,
One of my mates said that you guys had been listening to me preach so i thought i'd have a read through your responses. I'll just say a few things.
the first would be that i don't lie.
the second would be that i am not even vaguely close to being a control freak - preaching to a bunch of people is not about having some bizzare desire to control their lives.
it just so happens that a whole heap of people go to church and i reckon that if they turn up i don't want them to be wasting their time. I don't make them come - they have a choice - just like you blokes. you're welcome to come along if you want - and no you can't interject when i'm preaching, but i'll happily talk to you after we're done.
the third thing is that the saturday night church was going before i got here - i'm just the bloke who is the pastor of it now. the guys want to meet then - it was a sunday night crowd that decided to move to saturday night. we start at 6 and have dinner after church and usually hang out for an hour or two after that - though plenty of folk take off to go out somewhere after church. you blokes would hate it - we talk about Jesus heaps, we sing to Jesus (mind you, the bands we have playing are smokin' hot musos!), we pray to Jesus, we read the Bible - which is all about Jesus, me or someone else preaches - about Jesus. I think this is the thing with the whole atheism v. Christianity debate. you blokes are me share one thing in common - we're both sinners. we all do the wrong thing and we fail to do the right thing often. there's no point denying it - even if we judge ourselves we all know we stuff it up from time to time.
What are we to do with our sin? In your system there is no God - therefore there is no accounting - and there is no problem. However, there is a God - His name is Jesus. And there is an accounting. You can decide to deal with your sin yourself - in which case you end up in Hell. Or you can ask Jesus to deal with it for you - His death and resurrection pay for it. Problem solved.
Now, granted you blokes don't believe anything of what i've just said. But interestingly enough - that doesn't make Jesus go away.
You can keep ignoring Him - or you can repent of your arrogance and sin - and be forgiven.
And that nonsense a few of you have been going on about - 'Christians peddle guilt blah blah blah'. That's crap. Some might. That just means they don't get it. Jesus came to deal with sin. So we would be free. No guilt. No condemnation. That's the point. New life. Fresh start. New passions, desires - new everything.

i'm interested as to why you blokes want to listen to me preach. don't get me wrong - you can listen to as much of it as you like - perhaps if you take your blinkers off and concede, in humility, that just maybe you don't know everything you might learn one or two things. i appreciate your feedback - though, if you don't mind - i'll take what you say with a pinch of salt.

Do i know everything - of course not - that would be a dumb thing to think. But i'm humble enough to listen and learn.

that stuff you lot said about me was pretty harsh. you don't know me. you don't know 'my type'. I have a deep concern and love for the guys who come to our church. I want them to have a great life and to grow as Christians in strength and courage. They are fantastic people. You guys do yourselves a disservice to engage in this discussion in the way you are at the moment. learn to play the ball not the man.

I dont' know how many sermons are up there - i know there's a fair few. that one you listened to i preached a while back. i think it was late 2007 or early 2008. If you're in sydney you are welcome to come and have a look at what we do on sat night. come and find me after it and we can sit down - i'll make you a good coffee - and we can talk. if you're interstate or unable to make it - feel free to keep listening online if you want.

i'll check in once a week or so and see how things are going. But i reckon we need to just keep talking about Jesus - He who it's all about. He's the one you have to come to terms with. At the moment you guys think he wasn't who he said he was or that he was lying. There really is no point sticking your head in the sand and saying he didn't exist. that argument was settled a long time ago. the debate has moved on from there. please keep up with modern scholarship on the issue and deal with the claims Jesus made about Himself.

talk again sometime soon blokes,

steve

[TÐöer]

Welcome back Steve,

Some of us here just wanted to get your attention. You and Pete have left some unfinished business. It's up to you, who you want to play ball with, some of the questions we put forth are indeed good points unanswered.

As for miracle claims, I just can't understand how you would believe such things without first thinking how possible they maybe, then carry on preaching them.

[davo]

I think this is the thing with the whole atheism v. Christianity debate. you blokes are me share one thing in common - we're both sinners. we all do the wrong thing and we fail to do the right thing often. there's no point denying it - even if we judge ourselves we all know we stuff it up from time to time.


No, sin is a construct of your religion. I don't acknowledge sin, I'm not a 'sinner'.

I don't do bad things, I do what I want that's good, I don't do bad stuff. I make mistakes, but hey, bad is intent.

So .. how do I sin Steve that has you judging me?


What are we to do with our sin? In your system there is no God - therefore there is no accounting - and there is no problem. However, there is a God - His name is Jesus. And there is an accounting. You can decide to deal with your sin yourself - in which case you end up in Hell. Or you can ask Jesus to deal with it for you - His death and resurrection pay for it. Problem solved.

there is no evidence whatsoever for god, so your claims are pretty empty, as everyone has been saying. Where is the proof of a god?


Now, granted you blokes don't believe anything of what i've just said. But interestingly enough - that doesn't make Jesus go away.


Umm.. he isn't there steve...


You can keep ignoring Him - or you can repent of your arrogance and sin - and be forgiven.

? for what ??? there is no evidence whatsoever for a god.


And that nonsense a few of you have been going on about - 'Christians peddle guilt blah blah blah'. That's crap. Some might. That just means they don't get it. Jesus came to deal with sin. So we would be free. No guilt. No condemnation. That's the point. New life. Fresh start. New passions, desires - new everything.

Umm, you yourself said we were all 'sinners' and do 'bad things', without even knowing us! how is telling someone that they were born into sin and have to 'repent' not peddling guilt? I think it's a definition of peddling guilt.


i'm interested as to why you blokes want to listen to me preach.

For the lulz.


Do i know everything - of course not - that would be a dumb thing to think. But i'm humble enough to listen and learn.

No, your just sitting on a claim with no evidence, and protecting it with all your might, and trying to get other people to believe in your claim, and wondering why they think your wacko pushing that belief onto kids etc.


that stuff you lot said about me was pretty harsh. you don't know me. you don't know 'my type'. I have a deep concern and love for the guys who come to our church. I want them to have a great life and to grow as Christians in strength and courage. They are fantastic people. You guys do yourselves a disservice to engage in this discussion in the way you are at the moment. learn to play the ball not the man.

we are playing the ball, you however are sitting there judging us all under your religious concepts of 'sin'. Basically your cult is like any other cult. If you cared about those that came to your church, you wouldn't be putting concepts with no evidence onto them, using the guilt of sin to lead them into 'believing'. In my opinion it is abuse to put that onto anyone.


I dont' know how many sermons are up there - i know there's a fair few. that one you listened to i preached a while back. i think it was late 2007 or early 2008. If you're in sydney you are welcome to come and have a look at what we do on sat night. come and find me after it and we can sit down - i'll make you a good coffee - and we can talk. if you're interstate or unable to make it - feel free to keep listening online if you want.

You've shown you don't want to talk, all you want to do is preach, you haven't approached the simple questions put forward to you at all.

Describe your god, prove it exists, and show us why your god is the true god above all others.



i'll check in once a week or so and see how things are going. But i reckon we need to just keep talking about Jesus - He who it's all about. He's the one you have to come to terms with. At the moment you guys think he wasn't who he said he was or that he was lying. There really is no point sticking your head in the sand and saying he didn't exist. that argument was settled a long time ago. the debate has moved on from there. please keep up with modern scholarship on the issue and deal with the claims Jesus made about Himself.

Your just standing there saying 'santa exists!' and wanting people to believe Steve. true conversation is doing more than that. Your not connecting at ALL. in the meantime, people are just laughing at you, because your under a delusion, you have no evidence, no logic, no reasoning to your claims, why should people just believe you?

[The Irreverent Mr Black]

And there's a thread waiting about that DVD and its sneaky contents (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/showpost.php?p=12319&postcount=95).

Even mailed the reply to you, Steve, and made it a website (http://revstevewakeford.blogspot.com/) because it didn't look like you were coming back to us.

[eclectic]

g'day blokes,


what's with all the 'blokes' stuff? roughly half of us here - as half the population - are not 'blokes'. do you have a different definition, or do you only communicate with males?

I am not a 'sinner'. I am a flawed animal who tries to be moral but who also acts on selfishness and greed... I try to improve this constantly and think about my own ethical standard. I do not accept that 'sin' exists. I accept only that we have choices about living an ethical life, which is a personal choice.

Being told what to do by a book that was written hundreds of years ago about events and people that may or may not have existed, is NOT moral. Asking a magic man who may or may not have existed, and may or may not have been magic to 'deal with your sin for you' is NOT moral. (I know magic is a pagan term, and christians don't believe in such things as magic, but again you are wrong, water-into-wine etc IS magic just as much as voodoo, herbal medicine, or any of the other things you randomly think are loony are). Using your BRAIN (god given or otherwise) to evaluate a true ethical standard and try to live by that IS moral. Taking responsibility for your own actions as a thinking adult IS moral. Being a child and believing in jesus-will-fix-it-all stories is a cop-out.

[The Irreverent Mr Black]

And while we're on the matter of things overlooked and avoided...

"Spare a drachma for an ex-believer?"

If it's all so good, why was it all empty? A bunch of promises, and all I got was used up.

I'd say "fuck your god", but there's nobody there to insult.

[Protium]

g'day blokes,
jesus bla bla bla jesus bla bla bla.........
talk again sometime soon blokes,

steve

LULWUT! Your preach-o-matic is stuck.. Give it a kick will ya Steve.

[Kid]

Steve doesn't lie... just every freaking day of the week...

a sinner? eat my shorts, voodoo man.

Anyway, didn't Jeebus die to redeem sin? What was it, original sin? wasn't that why his super-dad had him nailed him up? So he could forgive mankind of some sin or other--that sin of eating a naughty piece of fruit after the talking snake said too? all of that nailing up cos someone ate some naughty fruit...now that is fruity; if only they'd left that naughty tree alone, all of this need not have happened, and we could all go about our lives without listening to this utter, utter, utter, utter drivel.

Once religion gets into a person's head, they turn from potentially intelligent people into gibbering idiots, babbling like raving loonies about dead Jewish men from 2000 years in the past, whose best party trick was turning a bit of water into some very cheap tasting wine, and take it from me, it was cheap. Jewish wine? I mean, come on, the Romans drank watered wine; they poured the water into the wine. Jeebus sneaked out the back and made a dodgy deal with the local Roman wine merchant, and conned everyone at the party he'd done some freaking Harry Potter magic over the water barrel, and would you believe it, (not), 2000 years later, halfwits and brain dead christians still believe it!
can you believe it?! such is the life of the of average xian... a wild sense of self importance, super inflated ego and a total and complete break with reality...

yawn...

[davo]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3410/3521217715_f5f7fc1a42_o.gif

[davo]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/AustralianReligiousAffiliationGraphWithoutTable.jp g/800px-AustralianReligiousAffiliationGraphWithoutTable.jp g

[Jaar-Gilon]

Steve doesn't lie... just every freaking day of the week...

a sinner? eat my shorts, voodoo man.

Anyway, didn't Jeebus die to redeem sin? What was it, original sin? wasn't that why his super-dad had him nailed him up? So he could forgive mankind of some sin or other--that sin of eating a naughty piece of fruit after the talking snake said too? all of that nailing up cos someone ate some naughty fruit...now that is fruity; if only they'd left that naughty tree alone, all of this need not have happened, and we could all go about our lives without listening to this utter, utter, utter, utter drivel.

Once religion gets into a person's head, they turn from potentially intelligent people into gibbering idiots, babbling like raving loonies about dead Jewish men from 2000 years in the past, whose best party trick was turning a bit of water into some very cheap tasting wine, and take it from me, it was cheap. Jewish wine? I mean, come on, the Romans drank watered wine; they poured the water into the wine. Jeebus sneaked out the back and made a dodgy deal with the local Roman wine merchant, and conned everyone at the party he'd done some freaking Harry Potter magic over the water barrel, and would you believe it, (not), 2000 years later, halfwits and brain dead christians still believe it!
can you believe it?! such is the life of the of average xian... a wild sense of self importance, super inflated ego and a total and complete break with reality...

yawn...


Go-o Kid...Go-o Kid......Go-o Kid...Go-o Kid...Go-o Kid......Go-o Kid...can I get a hallelujah!!!! hahahahahah eat my shorts :rolleyes::D

you blokes would hate it - we talk about Jesus heaps, we sing to Jesus (mind you, the bands we have playing are smokin' hot musos!), we pray to Jesus, we read the Bible - which is all about Jesus, me or someone else preaches - about Jesus.

Now can I get an AMEN! We can finally agree on something!!

But i reckon we need to just keep talking about Jesus - He who it's all about. He's the one you have to come to terms with. At the moment you guys think he wasn't who he said he was or that he was lying. There really is no point sticking your head in the sand and saying he didn't exist. that argument was settled a long time ago. the debate has moved on from there. please keep up with modern scholarship on the issue and deal with the claims Jesus made about Himself.

At the moment!!?? Steve as far as I'm concerned your jebus can cram it sideways!! You realise we would hate it when earlier you go on about talking about jebus heaps, why the fuck do you think we'd enjoy it now???

[stevewakeford]

That'll do me fellas. I'll keep casting my pearls before people who like to think about what is said without an a-priori position on everything.
grab a Bible, read it, get to know Jesus. By the look of the last census, that sounds like most of the population. I see you were established 39 years ago. Perhaps you should start to ask why. It's not that I'm right. God is.

[two dogs]

...
grab a Bible, read it, get to know Jesus.
...

grab a bible, read it, get to know myths.

grab a science book, read it, get know reality.

[davo]

That'll do me fellas. I'll keep casting my pearls before people who like to think about what is said without an a-priori position on everything.

what ? as in casting your pearls before swine?

KJV, Matthew 7:6
"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

Nice one Steve. You sit there making a claim, backing it up with NOTHING, and expect people to just follow you blindly, while making comments such as you do.

You judge us as 'sinners' and bad people.
You infer we are pigs.
You offer a fairy, with NO evidence or communication at ALL, but 'just believe'

fail. Big fail. if that is a ministry, it's only preaching to the converted, that's nothing at all steve. I think I get the line above now, "don't bother telling your pretty little fairy tales to those that show you the honesty of the earth and all that is, because they will not appreciate your little fairy, just tell those that are susceptible or already softened up for belief"


grab a Bible, read it, get to know Jesus.


I have read it Steve, probably more than any of your 'students' or many others of your faith. I know it damn well, and that's why I think it's a load of crock. No supreme being would put forward a book that takes cult experts to decipher 'the proper meaning' what a load of bollocks.


By the look of the last census, that sounds like most of the population. I see you were established 39 years ago. Perhaps you should start to ask why. It's not that I'm right. God is.

I posted it so you can see the steady decline of your anglican faith, your 'One True Truth(tm)', and the massive increase in people seeing religion for what it is, a brain virus of a lie put forward as truth.

Education steve, is wiping you out .. with the internet, we are seeing this information and solid reasoning and logic pushing your god back even faster. into it's little holes of 'Science doesn't know this, so I will say goddidit', the God of the Gaps, and those gaps are getting smaller and smaller.

[davo]

indeed Steve, folk of your faith are on par with unbelievers. Wonder who will keep gaining? ;)

[TÐöer]

indeed Steve, folk of your faith are on par with unbelievers. Wonder who will keep gaining? ;)

I slam :D

[TÐöer]

By the look of the last census, that sounds like most of the population. I see you were established 39 years ago. Perhaps you should start to ask why.

Steve,

Do I have to repeat it again, Budhism was founded way before Christianity, what's with the age comparison?

Don't you know the reason for this is the awakening? We are all in hibernation, we slowly awake. That is why we are growing.

Unlike the bible, the truth lies within us, it's only a matter of time before we all wake up.

[Kid]

Steve...
running away eh?

Come on! use the power of Jesus and convert us all! don't give up so easily, or are you bravely running away, buggering off and chickening out;...he bravely ran away...brave, brave, brave, brave Sir Steven...

Come on, I LOVE talking about Jesus! can't get enough of him, me...
Look, you don't like pooftas do you?
na, but there you are, a bunch of blokes all sitting around talking about another bloke that you LOVE to bits; men in love with another man...ah...it warm the cockles of my heart. If that's not gay love then I don't know what is...

Come back Steve; come on, you pansy! Show us what you're made of!
King Arthur: Or Victory is Mine! We thank thee lord, that in thy mercy...

Sir Steven: Oh, had enough ay?

King Arthur: Look, you stupid bastard, you've got no arms left...

Sir Steven: Yes I have! Chicken! Chickeeennn!

King Arthur: What'ya gonna do, bleed on me?

(a bit of Christ's blood should do it!)

Sir Steven: I'm invincible!

Arthur: You're a looney...

Sir Steven: All right, we'll call it a draw...

[Kid]

or he could just throw the Holy Hand grenade of Antioch at us...

[The Irreverent Mr Black]

Blighter must have me on ignore.

Hey! Wakey-wakey, Steve! (Bet he's heard that one before!)

I believed and there was nobody there. What happened to Jebus, Steve?

Was he off "pursuing" with Baal?

[The Irreverent Mr Black]

That'll do me fellas. I'll keep casting my pearls before people who like to think about what is said without an a-priori position on everything.
Hurt Fawn Defence! I think I win the bet, Davo.

[davo]

Hurt Fawn Defence! I think I win the bet, Davo.

damnit ok you were right, bottle of grange on it's way up there...

[OzAtheist]

That'll do me fellas. I'll keep casting my pearls before people who like to think about what is said without an a-priori position on everything.What, like the a-priori postion you religious people come from?
grab a Bible, read it, get to know Jesus. How many times do we have to tell you people, many of us atheists have studied the bible, in fact it was the study of the bible that turned a lot of us into atheists. I have 4 bibles at home plus an electronic on one my laptop. I read them, study them, don't find any of it worthwhile.

By the look of the last census, that sounds like most of the population. I see you were established 39 years ago. I'll give you the plain unadulterated researched fact Steve (so you don't have to do any research of your own, I know how much religious types hate research). The reason for the apparent sudden rise in non-believers was: 1971 was the year the instruction ‘if no religion, write none’ was introduced. Prior to that there was no way to indicate you were an atheist or non-believer.

I wrote an article on census and religion some while ago, I suggest you read it Steve, it may provide some food for thought: http://ozatheist.wordpress.com/2008/02/08/christianity-a-declining-population/ It also explains some of the underlying bias to religion in the census which makes for a higher percentage of religious people than possibly actually exists.

Perhaps you should start to ask why. It's not that I'm right. God is. We've worked out you aren't right, you are also not right about god.

[The Irreverent Mr Black]

g'day blokes,
One of my mates said that you guys had been listening to me preach so i thought i'd have a read through your responses. I'll just say a few things.
the first would be that i don't lie.Paradoxically (http://www.ltn.lv/%7Epodnieks/gt5.html), Steve, the proof of a man is not the strength of his truths, but the weakness of his lies. Your self-referential claim to truth falls a little flat when your unsupported "big truth" is supposedly just true, or true because you know it's true.

the second would be that i am not even vaguely close to being a control freak - preaching to a bunch of people is not about having some bizzare desire to control their lives.
Steve, you probably dignify the same personality traits as "leadership qualities". Broadly speaking, there are two main phenotypes become police: prefects and bullies. How did you feel about the authority of the job?

it just so happens that a whole heap of people go to church and i reckon that if they turn up i don't want them to be wasting their time. I don't make them come - they have a choice - just like you blokes. you're welcome to come along if you want - and no you can't interject when i'm preaching, but i'll happily talk to you after we're done.
Steve, atheism is a broad church, (haha). There are those who see you as a complete oppressor, and those who see you as something else. Our common thread is simply that we don't happen to have gods or believe in them. In atheism there is no Labor or Liberal (or Family First!), no straight or gay.... Oh dear: that meme's been used before, hasn't it?

the third thing is that the saturday night church was going before i got here - i'm just the bloke who is the pastor of it now. the guys want to meet then - it was a sunday night crowd that decided to move to saturday night. we start at 6 and have dinner after church and usually hang out for an hour or two after that - though plenty of folk take off to go out somewhere after church. you blokes would hate it - we talk about Jesus heaps, we sing to Jesus (mind you, the bands we have playing are smokin' hot musos!), we pray to Jesus, we read the Bible - which is all about Jesus, me or someone else preaches - about Jesus.
Steve, I respect the right of you and your fellow believers to gather and talk about your hobby in your own premises. It's sort of like nudist camps: the hairy fatties with eleven-inch appendectomy scars and blurry tattoos from their Navy days can bare all they like, but inside Naked Acres, rather than on the street. On the street it becomes offensive.
I think this is the thing with the whole atheism v. Christianity debate. you blokes are me share one thing in common - we're both sinners. we all do the wrong thing and we fail to do the right thing often. there's no point denying it - even if we judge ourselves we all know we stuff it up from time to time.
If I have my faults or do harm, Steve, I have either to expiate it with the harmed party, wear the fact I have done wrong and attempt to do better, or get over it.

I do not have the luxury of a big Reset button. (Yeah, I know the Confession mob are worse!) While the illusion of forgiveness is great for keeping all your little Jeebus Jihadis on-mission, it glosses over a lot of the hurt your well-meaning muddy Labrador types do while blithely spreading the word, like Vegemite on a pale carpet.

What are we to do with our sin? In your system there is no God - therefore there is no accounting - and there is no problem.
Nonsense! Complete, utter and arrant nonsense. There are social contracts and constructs, as an ex law-enforcement type should know.

There are other codes, such as ahimsa (look it up), which are quite devoid of religion. There is the golden rule (which predates and stands outside Judeochristian myth). By the way, we tend to see it as duty done and harm avoided, rather than "sin": a silly concept like that can see people thinking they have ticked off a sky-fairy, who can be paid off, or dole out forgiveness like Maundy money. Fact is, people hurt people, and it is among people they must work out whatever consequence or remorse they suffer.
However, there is a God - His name is Jesus. And there is an accounting. You can decide to deal with your sin yourself - in which case you end up in Hell. Or you can ask Jesus to deal with it for you - His death and resurrection pay for it. Problem solved.
Been there, done that. I imagined I heard the phone pick up, but it was a recorded mess. Sounded a heck of a lot like me talking to myself, actually.
http://rynosseros.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/nodialtone.jpg


Now, granted you blokes don't believe anything of what i've just said. But interestingly enough - that doesn't make Jesus go away.
It doesn't make him turn up either, Steve, and the exact same effect can be observed in the case of Davo's Invisible Pink Unicorn.

You can keep ignoring Him - or you can repent of your arrogance and sin - and be forgiven.
Or you can try this week's special: None Of The Above.

And that nonsense a few of you have been going on about - 'Christians peddle guilt blah blah blah'. That's crap. Some might. That just means they don't get it. Jesus came to deal with sin. So we would be free. No guilt. No condemnation. That's the point. New life. Fresh start. New passions, desires - new everything.

Ah, the "No True Scotsman" trick again. I said you'd drag this one in when somebody discredits some other christian.

i'm interested as to why you blokes want to listen to me preach. don't get me wrong - you can listen to as much of it as you like - perhaps if you take your blinkers off and concede, in humility, that just maybe you don't know everything you might learn one or two things. i appreciate your feedback - though, if you don't mind - i'll take what you say with a pinch of salt.

No problem, Steve. I have a bag of NaCl waiting after hearing some of your tall tales.

Do i know everything - of course not - that would be a dumb thing to think. But i'm humble enough to listen and learn.

Prove it. The Doer and I have both laid out a few questions that await answers.

that stuff you lot said about me was pretty harsh. you don't know me. you don't know 'my type'. I have a deep concern and love for the guys who come to our church. I want them to have a great life and to grow as Christians in strength and courage. They are fantastic people. You guys do yourselves a disservice to engage in this discussion in the way you are at the moment. learn to play the ball not the man.

Pointing out the weakness of your arguments is "playing the ball". When "the man" will not engage a ball in play, or insists that it's not actually a ball, but something else... then the man gets called on a foul, Steve.

I dont' know how many sermons are up there - i know there's a fair few. that one you listened to i preached a while back. i think it was late 2007 or early 2008. If you're in sydney you are welcome to come and have a look at what we do on sat night. come and find me after it and we can sit down - i'll make you a good coffee - and we can talk. if you're interstate or unable to make it - feel free to keep listening online if you want.

Thanks, but not Sydney! That would be cruel even if I believed in afterlife retribution.

i'll check in once a week or so and see how things are going. But i reckon we need to just keep talking about Jesus - He who it's all about. He's the one you have to come to terms with.
As I tell you: been there, done that, got the T-shirt of Turin, wrote the epistle home.

Worst. Trip. Ever.
At the moment you guys think he wasn't who he said he was or that he was lying. There really is no point sticking your head in the sand and saying he didn't exist. that argument was settled a long time ago. the debate has moved on from there. please keep up with modern scholarship on the issue and deal with the claims Jesus made about Himself.

Depends on the modern scholarship, as you very well know, O Disingenuous One.

Anyway, I think you'll find the big guns of theology have pretty well agreed that the person of god, divinity and presence of Jesus, and all that, cannot be totally proven by knowledge, and that it is only by faith one comes to this realisation.

Now, leaving all academa aside, Steve, I have had faith, and faith left me flat on my arse, all used up. I thought Jesus was sustaining me, but I was actually eating myself up.

talk again sometime soon blokes,

steve
I bet you don't answer this.
Black
http://rynosseros.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/blackhead2.jpg

[davo]

It doesn't make him turn up either, Steve, and the exact same effect can be observed in the case of Davo's Invisible Pink Unicorn.

How can you doubt the self-evident fact of the Invisible Pink Unicorn?

I have many sacred texts and I can prove the people that wrote them existed, indeed their birth records (that's a lot more than those christzombies can!)

Would not all reality fail if it did not exist? (Proof) For it says right here in the Book of Invisible Beasts and Lovely Equines (Unicorns chapter 2 verse 34) :

"For I (the Invisible Pink Unicorn) am the sustainer of reality." (sic)

Obviously if there were not the Invisible Pink Unicorn we would not be here.

The ultimate proof of Her existence is that even atheists are willing to worship her, (albeit mainly for the tax breaks).

from the book of The Book of the Prophet April (Chapter 1) :

6 And lo! the shaggy pony disappeared, and I felt myself to be in the Presence. And indeed was the Presence pink, and shaped like unto a unicorn. Yet such was the overwhelming nature of the Presence that I could not, in truth, look upon it.
7 For indeed, my friends, it is for this reason that the great Pink Unicorn is called Invisible, and that is, that the Presence is too great for our small eyes to truly see, and to awesome for our small minds to comprehend. It is by our faith alone that we know her to be Pink, and a Unicorn.
8 And truly those who say otherwise are heretics and unbelievers, and shall be cast into the Great Manure Pile where her Sacred Dwarves shall indeed nibble on their kneecaps for all eternity. And serve them right.

Even if you do not believe in Her, she believes in you, and your going to the Great Manure Pile as testified if you do not believe.

Safer to just believe yes??

[SinisterDexter]

That'll do me fellas. I'll keep casting my pearls before people who like to think about what is said without an a-priori position on everything.
grab a Bible, read it, get to know Jesus. By the look of the last census, that sounds like most of the population. I see you were established 39 years ago. Perhaps you should start to ask why. It's not that I'm right. God is.

Democritus, Epicurius, the Bhudda - just three ancient atheists.

Most of us here have probably read the Bible more times than you have steve. And you have yet to offer anything but pithy, rehearsed, unverifiable, shallow answers to any of the deep and abiding questions put forth by the astute and intelligent (if a little potty-mouthed) members of this forum.

If you seriously think you are "casting pearls" then you have seriously over-estimated your own rhetoric. It is the same tired crap that Christians have been mouthing for years, and that is why the graph is trending in our direction.

Bye steve - you won't be missed.

[The Irreverent Mr Black]

How can you doubt the self-evident fact of the Invisible Pink Unicorn?
[snip of bris proportions]
Even if you do not believe in Her, she believes in you, and your going to the Great Manure Pile as testified if you do not believe.

Safer to just believe yes??
http://rynosseros.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/unicorn_spew.jpg

[GenericBox]

Q5im0Ssyyus

I never realised how relevant this video is until now... Heh. Which one is Steve?

[Jaar-Gilon]

That'll do me fellas. I'll keep casting my pearls before people who like to think about what is said without an a-priori position on everything.
grab a Bible, read it, get to know Jesus. By the look of the last census, that sounds like most of the population. I see you were established 39 years ago. Perhaps you should start to ask why. It's not that I'm right. God is.

a-priori....A-PRIORI sheesh you must be kidding...right? You're kidding right? Steve I am more than willing to accept jesus actuality if provided with actual evidence and not just conjecture, it seems to me that you're the one willing to "believe" without the required evidence which would make you the one coming from an a-priori position.

Shit Steve what did you excpect? Of course we are going to come at you teeth bared, we're not a group of people on the cusp of believeing, most of us (not me) from what I have gathered were religious before they became non believers which would put them in good stead for knowing how you're religion works and what it's about. Yet you rock up and treat us as though we have no real idea about christianity, that's insulting Steve. You came here uninvited, and frankly unwelcome if you are just going to proselytise and apologise, to convince us that we are wrong as if we hadn't thought about it at all! Again it makes me feel indignant and I am sure I am not the only one. You came here being all blokey, and can't handle it after couple of posts. Maybe you need to think about itmore before you come to try and save the heathens!

Most of us have read the bible. It is not harmonious and in fact is littered with inconsistencies from -Davo in christ's resurrection thread


Matthew and Luke give two contradictory genealogies for Joseph (Matthew 1:2-17 and Luke 3:23-38). They cannot even agree on who the father of Joseph was.

Only Matthew and Luke mention the virgin birth.

Matthew says jesus was born in the reign of Herod the Great (Matthew 2:1). But according to luke jesus was born during the first census in Israel, while Quirinius was the governor of Syria (Luke 2:2). This is impossible because Herod died in March of 4 BCE and the census took place in 6 and 7 CE, about 10 years after Herod died.

When did judas betray jesus?

Luke 22:3-6 - Satan enters and affects Judas before the Last Supper
John 13:27 - Satan enters and affects Judas during the supper
Mark, Matthew - There is no mention of Satan entering or affecting Judas

oh this judas bit of the fairy take is all over the place :

Mark 14:10-11, Matthew 26:14-16, Luke 22:3-6 - Judas bargains with the priests before the Last Supper
John 13:21-30 - Judas bargains with the priests after the Last Supper

oh and the thirty pieces of silver?
Matthew 27:5 - Judas throws down the silver and walks away from the priests
Acts 1:18 - Judas uses the silver to buy some property
Mark, Luke, John - There is no mention of 30 pieces of silver

Oh let's not forget silver stopped being used as currency a few centuries earlier.

Why is judas associated to the 'Field of Blood'?

Matthew 27:6-8 - The priests buy the field and it gets its name because they used Judas’ blood money
Acts 1:18 - Judas buys the field and it gets the name because his guts burst open there (though how and why this happened isn't explained)
Mark, Luke, John - The Field of Blood is not mentioned

Well, let's just look at how Judas died eh?

Matthew 27:5 - Judas kills himself by hanging
Acts 1:18 - Judas falls to the ground, bursts open, and his guts spill out (again, how and why this happened isn't explained)
Mark, Luke, John - No mention of Judas killing himself....................

and when did these women arrive?

Mark 16:2 - They arrive after sunrise
Matthew 28:1 - They arrive at about dawn
Luke 24:1 - It is early dawn when they arrive
John 20:1 - It is dark when they arrive

What was the tomb like?

Mark 16:4, Luke 24:2, John 20:1 - The stone in front of Jesus’ tomb had been rolled away
Matthew 28:1-2 - The stone in front of Jesus’ tomb was still in place and would be rolled away later

Who greets the women?

Mark 16:5 - The women enter the tomb and meet one young man in there
Matthew 28:2 - An angel arrives during an earthquake, rolls away the stone, and sits on it outside. Pilate’s guards are also there
Luke 24:2-4 - The women enter the tomb and two men suddenly appear — it’s not clear if they are inside or outside
John 20:12 - The women do not enter the tomb, but there are two angels sitting inside

What do the women do?

Mark 16:8 - The women keep quiet, despite being told to spread the word
Matthew 28:8 - The women go tell the disciples
Luke 24:9 - The women tell "the eleven and to all the rest."
John 20:10-11 - Mary stays to cry while the two disciples just go home

When did jesus first appear?

Mark 16:14-15 - Jesus appears to Mary Magdalena but it’s not clear where (in older endings of Mark, he didn’t appear at all)
Matthew 28:8-9 - Jesus first appears near his tomb
Luke 24:13-15 - Jesus first appears near Emmaus, several miles from Jerusalem
John 20:13-14 - Jesus first appears at his tomb

Who sees jesus first?

Mark - Jesus appears first to Mary Magdalena then later to “the eleven”
Matthew - Jesus appears first to Mary Magdalena, then to the other Mary, and finally to ”the eleven”
Luke - Jesus appears first to “two,” then to Simon, then to “the eleven”
John - Jesus appears first to Mary Magdalena, then the disciples without Thomas, then the disciples with Thomas

What was the womens reaction to the empty tomb?

Mark 16:8 - The women were amazed and afraid, so they kept quiet
Matthew 28:6-8 - The women ran away “with great joy”
Luke 24:9-12 - The women left the tomb and told the disciples
John 20:1-2 - Mary told the disciples that the body had been stolen

How did jesus behave upon resurrection?

Mark 16:14-15 - Jesus commissions "the eleven" to preach the gospel
Matthew 28:9 - Jesus lets Mary Magdalene and another Mary hold his feet
John 20:17 - Jesus forbids Mary to touch him because he hasn’t ascended to heaven yet, but a week later he lets Thomas touch him anyway

How and when does jesus go up to daddy?

Mark 16:14-19 - Jesus ascends while he and his disciples are seated at a table in or near Jerusalem
Matthew 28:16-20 - Jesus’ ascension isn’t mentioned at all, but Matthew ends at a mountain in Galilee
Luke 24:50-51 - Jesus ascends outisde, after dinner, and at Bethany and on the same day as the resurrection
John - Nothing about Jesus’ ascension is mentioned
Acts 1:9-12 - Jesus ascends at least 40 days after his resurrection, at Mt. Olivet

These are but a mere few, what's even more confusing is the masses of different "interpretations" of the whole book! I gotta say for an all powerful deity your god needs to improve his communication skills!
if you think most of the people in the census that counted themselves as christians have read the bible you are even more deluded than I thought, my impression is that most of these so called christians are so because that's what their mum and dad were.

[Kid]

yeah, I second that; tho it looks like now they've all buggered off back to their own enclaves where they're safe, and their superstitious drivel isn't challenged. Once they realise they can't con anyone around here, and have exhausted their stock of set 'arguments' they're off...wonder if any of them will come back for round two?

[The Irreverent Mr Black]

yeah, I second that; tho it looks like now they've all buggered off back to their own enclaves where they're safe, and their superstitious drivel isn't challenged. Once they realise they can't con anyone around here, and have exhausted their stock of set 'arguments' they're off...wonder if any of them will come back for round two?
Oh, they'll be back. There will be a time lag, so some will forget their last failures to answer, and it will be all pal this and mate that, and still The Doer's questions will be unanswered, and the issue of believers who quit will be avoided.

Other Fish-In-A-Barrel Prophecy: The bible will still be true, because it's true, and Jesus will still exist because he exists. "Modern Scholars" (a subset of persons who are scholars extant at this time, chosen because they say what Steve Wakeford wants to hear) will still be completely in agreement with each other, and with Steve Wakeford, on this.

I should poke a stick with a picture of Barbara Thiering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Thiering) at him.
Modern? TICK.
Scholar? TICK.

I don't agree with Barb either, but she shows what use a modern scholar can be (or an ancient one) when confronted with The Book With No Invisible Pink Unicorns (Really: None).

[davo]

http://www.atheist-community.org/images/cartoon/12RtRXA8OnX1722R310.jpg (http://www.atheist-community.org/atheisteve/?id=54)

[davo]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3540/3530215299_cf52ecdce3_o.jpg

[youngmoigle]

He couldn't go anywhere - there was nowhere to go
He couldn't do anything - there was nothing to do
He couldn't even think - there was nothing to think about.

...useless prick!