Extracurricular GAC2012 Discussion Thread

[Darwinsbulldog]

MOD NOTE: This thread has been created for the discussion and organisation of any extra activities such as workshops, conferences, stalls, get-togethers, drinking games, etc, that people want to organise, which are not part of the official GAC2012 programme. /END MOD NOTE

As much as I like Celebs like our beloved PZ Myers say things like: "religion makes even smart people say stoopid things", I would like to see the GAC evolve into more active participation by the rank and file in workshop situations on more specific topics that are either part of the main conference or scheduled in the days before or after the "main event" where the big names have their say.

[Loki]

active participation by the rank and file in workshop situations

Oh so that's what you call it, I call it "going to the pub". :D

[Darwinsbulldog]

Oh so that's what you call it, I call it "going to the pub". :D
Yes, of course, those interactions are vital and fun. Nevertheless, a case can be made for more formal discussions also. Too many beers and I derail myself. :p:p:p;)

[Lord Blackadder]

I like this idea that DB (and other posters) have raised. Is there the potential to hire out some smaller lecture theatres or rooms (Melbourne University and RMIT are in the CBD vicinity) with willing and able volunteers running sessions? What would be the logistics involved? Even something like picking a local watering hole (and there are PLENTY around Melbourne) for an informal discussion (maybe similar setup to the George Hrab night in Carlton last year) may be a goer. Whilst the "big names" are draw cards, some attendees are more participators than listeners. Informal discussion groups, workshops, etc. could be a great, non-threatening, non-lecturely way to get the message out that atheists, secularists and humanists aren't going to come into you home and steal your children's brains (we leave that up to the wooists...:))

[Magicziggy]

I like the above suggestion.
Sitting through the celebrity speakers is not so appealing second time around.
Some informal stuff would be good.

[Darwinsbulldog]

I like this idea that DB (and other posters) have raised. Is there the potential to hire out some smaller lecture theatres or rooms (Melbourne University and RMIT are in the CBD vicinity) with willing and able volunteers running sessions? What would be the logistics involved? Even something like picking a local watering hole (and there are PLENTY around Melbourne) for an informal discussion (maybe similar setup to the George Hrab night in Carlton last year) may be a goer. Whilst the "big names" are draw cards, some attendees are more participators than listeners. Informal discussion groups, workshops, etc. could be a great, non-threatening, non-lecturely way to get the message out that atheists, secularists and humanists aren't going to come into you home and steal your children's brains (we leave that up to the wooists...:))
I am quite prepared to pitch in and organise it, provided others are OK with it, and of course, the GAC Committee.
I think we should keep it separate to piss-ups, because drinkies are mainly for socialising with atheists as people, not about tax reform, pastors in schools, or whatever the SIG groups want to talk about. We could still have amix of formal and informal sessions. After all, there is no guarrantee that one of the big speaker is even going to talk about some topics that we might want to raise.
I can think of hundreds of issues that people could be interested in. Anything from lectures and workshops about raising children as skeptics to howto sessioons on debunking woo.

Oh, and Stepphen Fry is on my wish list for big guns at the big teepee. :p

[Podblack]

Just a quick note - perhaps making it completely separate from GAC is easier to facilitate - this is happening (now, today!) in Sydney:
http://skepticampaustralia.org/Sydney2011.ashx

and there's already offers to get sponsorship happening and attendees for one in Melbourne. :)

As an established, world-wide model, it's even got lots of documentation and advice to support a 'first time'. When it happens in Melb (where I'm sure the likes of Jason Ball and the YAS team will be involved somehow), will make sure that it can include atheist/secular elements - it's not exclusive to 'pure skepticism'. :)

[DanDare]

Just a quick note - perhaps making it completely separate from GAC is easier to facilitate - this is happening (now, today!) in Sydney:
http://skepticampaustralia.org/Sydney2011.ashx

and there's already offers to get sponsorship happening and attendees for one in Melbourne. :)

As an established, world-wide model, it's even got lots of documentation and advice to support a 'first time'. When it happens in Melb (where I'm sure the likes of Jason Ball and the YAS team will be involved somehow), will make sure that it can include atheist/secular elements - it's not exclusive to 'pure skepticism'. :)
How about coordinating one in every capital for two weeks after the GAC and use the GAC to advertise?

For the GAC I would like to see moderated discussions on issues. Something like the insight show on SBS perhaps? Don't forget the 'G' in GAC is for global, so not just Oz issues.

[Lord Blackadder]

Just a quick note - perhaps making it completely separate from GAC is easier to facilitate - this is happening (now, today!) in Sydney:
http://skepticampaustralia.org/Sydney2011.ashx

and there's already offers to get sponsorship happening and attendees for one in Melbourne. :)

As an established, world-wide model, it's even got lots of documentation and advice to support a 'first time'. When it happens in Melb (where I'm sure the likes of Jason Ball and the YAS team will be involved somehow), will make sure that it can include atheist/secular elements - it's not exclusive to 'pure skepticism'. :)

Podblack, we must talk when you are in town. :)

[Darwinsbulldog]

I am a against the "little people's" conf being separated in time too much from the main GAC. Either immediately before or after would be best. After all, folks are unlikely to come 4,000km or 15,000 kilometers to just to hear some inane drivel from the likes of DB. They wanna hear from the "Big Guns". Fair enough. But since they will be here anyway, they might want to hear from the little people, like me.
The problem with a "Big Guns" conference is that it is not a real conference in the sense it is mainly all top-down. Not much bottom-up or horizontal stuff going on at a formal level. [except drinkies of course, which is informal anyways].

This is not meant to sound arrogant, but perhaps the likes of Richard Dawkins could learn some stuff from the likes of me as well as vice-versa?
One of the great things of the RDF forum was that Richard was a draw-card that got people in, but the forum went way beyond being about Richard.
After the demise of RDF forum the various "replacements" put in place [to provide for the demand created by the RDF forum] enjoy nowhere near the same patronage.
In other words, the GAC should be a drawcard and catalyst for more catholic[1] activities in the atheist scene, rather than be an end in itself.

[1] Used in the secular, rather than theological "Catholic" sense. :)

[Lord Blackadder]

I am a against the "little people's" conf being separated in time too much from the main GAC. Either immediately before or after would be best. After all, folks are unlikely to come 4,000km or 15,000 kilometers to just to hear some inane drivel from the likes of DB. They wanna hear from the "Big Guns". Fair enough.

Yep, I was thinking that if activities/lectures/drunken partying was to be organised, it should be in the same timeframe as the GAC.

For example: If the GAC is running Friday night to Sunday afternoon, organise some stuff for Wednesday evening until Friday afternoon, then maybe some more stuff from Sunday night to the Tuesday afternoon. Maybe a lunch or something organised on Saturday or Sunday for non-golden ticket holders who are in Melbourne for the weekend.

It doesn't have to be big and flashy, but if there are able and willing volunteers and if we can secure some smaller venues, we could have a few extras running. I believe Podblack is going to give us a rundown of Skeptic Camp when in town, so we will see what ideas are generated.

[Darwinsbulldog]

@ Lord B and interested others: Do you think this stuff should be shoved off to it's own thread? If so, heelup please nice moderator peoples!

[Lord Blackadder]

Might be a good idea DB - otherwise we could head into serious derailment teritory. Mods?

[Praxis]

'Tis done :)

[Jin-oh Choi]

Count me in to 'help out' and 'participate'. :)

[Praxis]

Count me in to 'help out' and 'participate'. :)
For the official Convention or for extracurricular stuff? Or both?

Nice to see you again Jin-oh :)

[Jin-oh Choi]

For both, I've got a bit of A/Leave owing to me. So I'm going to try and spend a week up there for it.

[Darwinsbulldog]

I suppose the firs thing to be done is to get approval and liaise with the GAC committee. Tentative name "Mini-GAC"? I suppose also that it would make sense that members recruited to the mini-GAC be a sub-committee of the GAC main conf committee itself?

[Praxis]

I suppose the firs thing to be done is to get approval and liaise with the GAC committee. Tentative name "Mini-GAC"? I suppose also that it would make sense that members recruited to the mini-GAC be a sub-committee of the GAC main conf committee itself?
This is way out of my area of knowledge but I'm guessing based on what I do know, that this is probably unlikely. The organisation of the GAC is massive and the committee will have all their resources allocated towards getting it up and running.

I'm thinking that any outside stuff doesn't need the impramatur of the GAC committee and can be set up by those involved - do their own marketing, etc.

The extra stuff is quite separate and should be organised and marketed by those putting it together as the GAC committee have quite enough to do with the main event!

If I'm wrong, I'll happily stand corrected by someone who knows more than I do, higher up the food chain :)

[Darwinsbulldog]

I was not implying that we should drain resources from a busy GAC committee, which is why I floated the idea that [if and when we get permission from the GAC] that we do all our own recruitment to form the miniGAC.
The proposed mini-GAC will be linked in space-time with the main event in any case. We would also benefit from them sharing some of their expertise with us. Of course, there has to be a pro-quid-pro. I don't think that anyone here would wish the main-GAC to suffer extra work and stain, so person power from the miniGAC committee could help, under the direction of the main GAC, offset by reciprocating the aid.

Obviously, we would want attendees to the GAC to be aware of the miniGAC, and so it would make sense to integrate [with their permission] our publicity with theirs, provide we raise our own funds to help finance the [proposed] joint publicity.
Just throw ideas around here, so that I can go to the GAC committee with a good sense of how our proposed event is going to be shaped and implemented.

[Perspective]

DB, happy to discuss possibilities, options etc on Monday at lunch.

[davo]

I personally was thinking more of promoting a Fringe, rather than a 'mini-GAC' so that people could just run events and the whole lot of them get promoted with the main GAC as 'the Fringe'. This would mean a lower entry point for people organising stuff without the need for a heirarchical organisational pressure, there could be numerous groups wanting to catch up, bloggers, twit heads, FB-ers, forumites, 'lectures' or information nights you name it, with the main GAC just promoting the calendar where people can find these events, as 'The Fringe'

Still early days yet tho, but this is what is effective with most other major events and the like, having a Fringe Festival.

[davo]

Of course, don't let me stop any ideas I'm not the arbiter, I am but one person in the AFA and as mentioned, it's early days yet :)

Just thinking out loud, as the GAC promoting a Fringe would bring all groups into that promotion, not just the ones that manage to organise a big event or night.

[Jin-oh Choi]

Fringe events always add a touch of flavor to the main event. And are usually organized by excited volunteers. Often good for people who can't make the main event to be part of the 'action'.

[Darwinsbulldog]

I don't care what these events are called. I was just using a label for convenience. But from what you have said Davo, can we understand that the GAC committee is approving in principle to the general idea of fringe events.
I know at the Darwin Conf in Melbourne in 2009, there were a lot of fringe events, some of them organized by the city.
Anyway, it seems to me that at least some of these fringe events, if they are to go ahead, would need to have relevant venues booked well in advance.

In the case of lectures and workshops and SIG groups, a Melbourne Uni might have some venue resources that we could book.

[Darwinsbulldog]

DB, happy to discuss possibilities, options etc on Monday at lunch.
Indeed! :)

[davo]

Yes the GACCM's are all for a fringe. Stuff has been discussed in this regard and I will ask at next meeting about releasing something in regard what we had organized, as people are already working on ideas.

[Podblack]

I would suggest checking out how the forthcoming SkeptiCamp Melbourne goes (certainly attend, consider presenting!) and get some understanding of how its organised and perhaps that might be emulated or even just repeated before the GAC. Seems useful to use it as a template rather than 'reinvent the wheel'? :)

OOOF! Forgot to add - this is the organisation link to the forthcoming SkeptiCamp Melbourne: http://www.skepticampaustralia.org/Melbourne2011.ashx

[Darwinsbulldog]

Oh well, it seems everyone has been thinking about this for a long time. :o Anyway, if anyone wants a spear-carrier or summat, I am prepared to chip in.

[Emmy]

I think that this is a great idea, I am all for workshops and something tangible as a result. I think as a first step, objectives need to be thought out. What is the point of the workshops, are they to influence government, are they to influence religious leaders, and how? Will the results of the workshop be a basis for some sort of movement? I would be really keen to be involved in this, if you'll have me! Am already located in the right place (ah, meaning in Melbourne).

[davo]

OK, hot off the press.

The committee has been discussing this for a while on how to proceed with organising, and there was decided there will be active support from the GAC in regard a Fringe Festival.

There will be a place and methodology that Fringe events can be officially registered with the GAC for support in regard promotion on the website calendar with the obvious condition that they do not conflict with GAC events, until they are sold out.

There are many organisations that are going to be approached over their own events surrounding the GAC, there may be lots of events on at the same time, and there will be a GAC committee member able to co-ordinate the submissions on the site and co-ordinate with the many various Fringe groups and the main GAC committee.

The main GAC website should be released in the near future, and shortly after information on registering events surrounding the GAC for the Fringe plus promotion on the site, so that people have plenty of time to co-ordinate and advertise.

[Jin-oh Choi]

OK, hot off the press.

The committee has been discussing this for a while on how to proceed with organising, and there was decided there will be active support from the GAC in regard a Fringe Festival.

There will be a place and methodology that Fringe events can be officially registered with the GAC for support in regard promotion on the website calendar with the obvious condition that they do not conflict with GAC events, until they are sold out.

There are many organisations that are going to be approached over their own events surrounding the GAC, there may be lots of events on at the same time, and there will be a GAC committee member able to co-ordinate the submissions on the site and co-ordinate with the many various Fringe groups and the main GAC committee.

The main GAC website should be released in the near future, and shortly after information on registering events surrounding the GAC for the Fringe plus promotion on the site, so that people have plenty of time to co-ordinate and advertise.

Wahooo. lol :)

[Perspective]

Wowee - how exciting!

[Bolero]

Just putting my hand up for volunteering/organising/dogsbodying. Fringe or GAC, I'm in.

[Goldenmane]

Heh.

Goldenmane at the Fringe.

Has a nice ring to it.

I'm in.

[Praxis]

Great news Davo! Thanks to the Committee - what a fantastic job you are all doing.

Goldenmane at the Fringe.

Has a nice ring to it.
HAH! THIS! :D

[Emmy]

Don't know if this helps at all, but I have a few contacts in the events branch of the City of Melbourne. To any organisers if I can be of assistance please message me.

[Emmy]

Heh.

Goldenmane at the Fringe.

Has a nice ring to it.

I'm in.

Lol! Sounds like porn!

[Goldenmane]

Lol! Sounds like porn!
Oh, you've heard of me then?

[ptah]

OK, hot off the press.

The committee has been discussing this for a while on how to proceed with organising, and there was decided there will be active support from the GAC in regard a Fringe Festival.

There will be a place and methodology that Fringe events can be officially registered with the GAC for support in regard promotion on the website calendar with the obvious condition that they do not conflict with GAC events, until they are sold out.

There are many organisations that are going to be approached over their own events surrounding the GAC, there may be lots of events on at the same time, and there will be a GAC committee member able to co-ordinate the submissions on the site and co-ordinate with the many various Fringe groups and the main GAC committee.

The main GAC website should be released in the near future, and shortly after information on registering events surrounding the GAC for the Fringe plus promotion on the site, so that people have plenty of time to co-ordinate and advertise.


I like the idea of a 'fringe' event. It ensures a visible connection with the GAC, which is important. But there's also the possibility of a name that sounds less scary to outsiders. I don't like the name 'expo' but something along those lines, perhaps. Maybe the "Atheist Festival"?

[Perspective]

Perhaps when we find out details (speakers, times etc) we can use our impromptu 'formal meetings' as an opportunity to figure out how each state can further promote the event in their local areas??

[Lord Blackadder]

I don't like the name 'expo' but something along those lines, perhaps. Maybe the "Atheist Festival"?

The G.A.F.F. - The Global Atheist Fringe Festival.

[Xeno]

Not one for a gaff, I would have the Fellow-Atheists Fringe Festival so I can be faffing about.

[Perspective]

Not one for a gaff, I would have the Fellow-Atheists Fringe Festival so I can be faffing about.

Sounds too much like a fellowship.

Atheist Fringe Festival Australia - AFFA look and see!:p Bad joke :rolleyes::p

[Darwinsbulldog]

I must say I am a little concerned about the Mini-GAC being called a fringe event.
At present, we have the GAC, and it is great. At the dinner, and in the evenings, there will be no doubt much socializing and fun, which I also approve of.

But, I for one, want a serious mini-GAC, where we can have workshops run and attended by ordinary members. Having the big names at the GSC is great, but it is basically a top-down affair. With the thousands of members attending, I think we should present out own lectures and seminars and workshops on a whole variety of topics of import. Make the GAC [mini] more horizontal in participation.
There are hundreds of issues that can be discussed. Serious ones that affect our future. Like making Australia, and the world, safe for reason. This requires activism of a sort, and getting together and planning and forging links between us. We are a herd of cats really, and we need to improve on this. Matters of legislation, tax, the teaching of science & creationism, religious opposition to certain medical procedures, the right to euthanasia. All, or at least, of the topics of import that we talk about here are potential seminar topics.
I for one, don't want the mini-GAC or fringe, to be just fluff. We can still get stupid in the evenings...at the pub.
Perhaps more regional meetings as well. But anyway, more "bottom-up" is required. [No, not "mooning", we can save that for the evening, or for fundi protesters outside]. :p:p

[Goldenmane]

I for one, don't want the mini-GAC or fringe, to be just fluff.

I don't do fluff.

[Coryate]

I don't do fluff.

What about your belly button ?

[Goldenmane]

What about your belly button ?

Well, maybe there.

If we're still arguing about whether to call it mini-GAC or fringe, though, I'd like to offer a compromise portmanteau: minge.


:D

[Loki]

GAFF isn't specific enough, how about

Discourse In Logic and Levity In Global Atheist Fringe.

:D:D:D:D

[Annie]

Ahhhh! DILLIGAF. :-)

What about Fringe Of Atheist Convention. Could be pronounced 'Folk' or Maybe even 'Fuck' with a hint of an unidentified accent. :-)

[Goldenmane]

You may cause a flap with a name like that, unless your personal event is to be called "The G-Spot".

Hehehe.

I like it.

Not sure what I'd do to deserve a 'personal event' though.

:D

[Darwinsbulldog]

Convention to Understand Neurotic Theologies Skeptically.

-the CUNTS convention.

[ABridgeTooFar]

Enduring Very Optimistic Laughable and Unoriginal Theology In Ontological Nonsense

The Evolution convention.

[Darwinsbulldog]

Enduring Very Optimistic Laughable and Unoriginal Theology In Ontological Nonsense

The Evolution convention.

Fran Alaya, Francis Collins and Ken R. Miller might not like that one, being Xian Evilootionists and all. :p

[RealityRules]

Enduring Very Optimistic Laughable and Unoriginal Theology In Ontological Nonsense

The Evolution convention.

Pls do not conflate evolution and theology

[Podblack]

Oh, told Simon Taylor about the idea and he'd be more than happy to chip in and round up comedians, entertainers, help suggest an evening venue for a get-together on the side. :)

[crocoduck]

Tangent here:

In the run up to the GAC would love to replace an episode of Compass on the ABC with The Four Horseman DVD conversation (edited). Play it early enough for people to still buy tickets. Compass isn't necessarily the preferred time slot, and I fear what intro commentary they might add to it, but it might be a suitable program to justify the content.

Massively naive about how these things work, I know...:)

[ptah]

I must say I am a little concerned about the Mini-GAC being called a fringe event.
At present, we have the GAC, and it is great. At the dinner, and in the evenings, there will be no doubt much socializing and fun, which I also approve of.

But, I for one, want a serious mini-GAC, where we can have workshops run and attended by ordinary members. Having the big names at the GSC is great, but it is basically a top-down affair. With the thousands of members attending, I think we should present out own lectures and seminars and workshops on a whole variety of topics of import. Make the GAC [mini] more horizontal in participation.
There are hundreds of issues that can be discussed. Serious ones that affect our future. Like making Australia, and the world, safe for reason. This requires activism of a sort, and getting together and planning and forging links between us. We are a herd of cats really, and we need to improve on this. Matters of legislation, tax, the teaching of science & creationism, religious opposition to certain medical procedures, the right to euthanasia. All, or at least, of the topics of import that we talk about here are potential seminar topics.
I for one, don't want the mini-GAC or fringe, to be just fluff. We can still get stupid in the evenings...at the pub.
Perhaps more regional meetings as well. But anyway, more "bottom-up" is required. [No, not "mooning", we can save that for the evening, or for fundi protesters outside]. :p:p

A fringe has to start somewhere. The first time it might be experimental. Perhaps something that can start small and grow in to a fringe festival? Perhaps something like a halo of events around the GAF. "The Atheists' Halo"?

[djarm67]

There are hundreds of issues that can be discussed. Serious ones that affect our future. Like making Australia, and the world, safe for reason. This requires activism of a sort, and getting together and planning and forging links between us. We are a herd of cats really, and we need to improve on this.

I agree with DB. This type of activity looks awesome.
http://www.yoism.org/images/HerdingCats.JPG

[Goldenmane]

Sit with a drink and RANT! Audience enjoyment guaranteed. Goldenmane enjoyment subject to subjective conditions, including quality of drink.

Well, I can do that. How enjoyable it is for the audience is not something I can necessarily speak to.

Durro, Praxis, and Riddles have witnessed somewhat of it in person (actually, so have Protes and Donna, now I think of it) so you'd have to ask them.

Naturally enough, I think I'm pretty good at it. :D

I'm not sure I could afford to supply an audience with enough quality drink, though. BYO? Can we do that?

[Bolero]

GM - I would pay money (or quality drink) to see you in action in person. :)

[Goldenmane]

GM - I would pay money (or quality drink) to see you in action in person. :)

Flattery, my dear Bolero, will get you an expensive bar tab.

I'm not nearly so much fun in person.

I do appreciate the sentiment, though, and thank you.

[Bolero]

Flattery, my dear Bolero, will get you an expensive bar tab.

I'm not nearly so much fun in person.

I do appreciate the sentiment, though, and thank you.
I'm not saying I WILL pay anything... just, I WOULD... y'know, if I had any fucking money.

Yes, quite. I hear that in person you're a shy little wallflower.

[Goldenmane]

Yes, quite. I hear that in person you're a shy little wallflower.

People have been talking about me? *swoon*

[Perspective]

People have been talking about me? *swoon*

A ranting, shy, porn star, cunt... perhaps eccentric too??

[Podblack]

People have been talking about me? *swoon*

EVERYONE wanted to meet you when I talked about you in Melbourne! Who needs a Wiki page when you're Goldenmane?!? :D

[Lord Blackadder]

"A Golden Hour with Goldenmane"
Resident AFA philosopher, Goldenmane, waxes lyrical about God, beer, religious nutters, his lack of presence on Wikipedia, and cunts.

"Five stars - I loved it!" - Margaret Pomeranz.
"I disagree - three-and-a-half stars." - David Stratton
"Ha ha, I'm on Wikipedia and you're not!" - Podblack
"Linux!" Protium

[Bolero]

"A Golden Shower with Goldenmane"


FIFY.

[Goldenmane]

A ranting, shy, porn star, cunt... perhaps eccentric too??

Porn star?

[Goldenmane]

EVERYONE wanted to meet you when I talked about you in Melbourne! Who needs a Wiki page when you're Goldenmane?!? :D

Can't have talked to many people, then.

I trust you told them how shy and retiring I am in real life?

[Perspective]

Porn star?
Goldenmane at the fringe ring a bell?

[Goldenmane]

Goldenmane at the fringe ring a bell?

Heh.

Oh, yeah. That.

[Podblack]

Can't have talked to many people, then.

I trust you told them how shy and retiring I am in real life?

I think the videos they've seen probably challenged any accounts on that front.

Er, I mean the YouTube ones.

Not the porn ones.

There aren't any of those. None. Nothing doing. Go away, nothing to see here. (ahem) :o

[Th3rdDigree]

Any idea approximately how much a ticket to the 2012 GAC will be? Ballpark? How much was the 2010 GAC?

[Praxis]

Any idea approximately how much a ticket to the 2012 GAC will be? Ballpark? How much was the 2010 GAC?
A gold pass was $319, the dinner was around $103, a Sunday-only pass was around $110, a full weekend pass (which is what I got) was around $200-$250 - I honestly can't remember!

There are also concession prices.

Hope this helps a bit?

[hatms]

Awesome, I new if I read enough I find my question asked and answered somewhere, saves me the trouble of posting myself :)


oh wait! lol

[Bolero]

Awesome, I new if I read enough I find my question asked and answered somewhere, saves me the trouble of posting myself :)


oh wait! lol
Mate, it is truly wonderful to have a new member capable of using the search function. ;)

[Praxis]

Mate, it is truly wonderful to have a new member capable of using the search function. ;)
Yes, and we all await that new member with great anticipation.

[Xeno]

Dearest Bolero and Praxis. Ms Xeno is away for nearly two weeks. No sex please. We're, well, shit, needing to feel more British about it. Stiff upper lip never quivers. Members are found only in parliament.

[Praxis]

Hold it together Xeno. Sorry, I mean pull yourself... no, I mean, oh screw it :D

[Th3rdDigree]

Thanks Praxis!! Better start saving some coin - my wife and I are gonna come over from Perth for the weekend if we can secure tickets. :)